Participants: Philip Ammons
Series Code: UBR
Program Code: UBR000213A
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00:01 Do you ever wonder how to respond
00:02 when you get into a conversation 00:04 with a Jehovah's Witness 00:05 or a member of the Church of Latter-day Saints. 00:07 Well, stay tuned to meet a man 00:09 who is going to share some tips and strategies 00:11 that can lead them to Christ. 00:13 My name is Yvonne Lewis. 00:14 And I'm Jason Bradley 00:16 and you're watching Urban Report. 00:42 Hello, and welcome to Urban Report, 00:45 I've got Jason with me. 00:46 Hey, Jay. All right, all right. 00:50 And we have a special guest today. 00:53 Our guest today is Philip Ammons. 00:56 For 35 years in 13 states 00:58 across the United States and in Canada, 01:01 he's been an active teacher, preacher, 01:04 evangelist and seminar presenter 01:06 with a focus in Christian apologetics, 01:09 Bible prophecy 01:10 and hermeneutical Biblical interpretation. 01:13 He's preached in churches 01:14 across various denominational fellowships across America. 01:18 Welcome to Urban Report, Brother Phil. 01:21 Thank you, Yvonne. 01:23 Jason, good to see you. It's good to see you. 01:26 Phil, I've known you for a number of years 01:30 and for all the time that I've known you. 01:33 You... 01:35 God has just gifted you across so many lines, 01:39 you are able to present doctrine in a way 01:44 that's so cogent and so 01:49 erudite. 01:51 I shouldn't give you all this, 01:52 because this here is going to blow up. 01:56 But you have and it's such a blessing 01:58 because I've learned so much over the years from you 02:02 and I just want to know how did you get into, 02:05 first of all what is Christian apologetics? 02:07 Because some people, you know, when you say apologetics, 02:10 people think you're apologizing. 02:11 Right. Because those things... that was a mouthful. 02:14 Yeah. Right, right. 02:15 Hermeneutics, apologetics, 02:16 denominations and all the stuff. 02:18 Then there are people who honestly believe that, 02:20 they believe that it has something to do 02:23 with regretting something that you've done. 02:26 But when you start talking about Christian apologetics, 02:29 you're really talking about defending the faith 02:33 and typically here meaning 02:36 something in the historical Christian vacuum. 02:42 We typically dealing with doctrine, 02:44 whether doctrine of creation 02:46 or doctrine of some theoretical 02:51 or theological belief in the scriptures 02:53 so we can really pars down the different defenses 02:58 that God expects for us as Christians 03:02 to be able to assert in the face of people 03:05 who seek to distort or deny that which is biblical truth. 03:11 So, basically 03:14 and I know a lot of our viewers want to know, 03:17 like a lot of times people come to your door 03:19 and they'll say, can you... 03:23 We want to, we want to share something with you. 03:27 We want to tell you something. 03:28 How do you react when people come to your door? 03:31 Well, now there are couple, 03:32 that's an excellent question, Yvonne. 03:35 There are two things here. 03:38 Biblically speaking 03:40 there are those who have beliefs, 03:43 religious beliefs that are so destructive to Christianity 03:49 that we are admonished by John 03:52 in the Book of 1 John, 03:54 2 John 1 03:57 to not even allow certain people into our homes. 04:01 And so we have to be very careful with that. 04:03 I on the other hand 04:05 as a layperson apologist 04:09 love for people to come into my home. 04:12 Whether, whatever their faith may be, 04:14 unless they are of some satanic persuasion, 04:18 other than that they are welcome into my home 04:21 to discuss the scripture so, in answer to your question, 04:25 someone comes and knocks on my door. 04:28 I invite them in 04:30 and there are certain conclusions 04:34 that I automatically have in place 04:36 when this person is at my door. 04:39 Number one, I'm glad that they're there 04:42 because it lets me know that they have a deep value 04:46 for whatever truths that they believe in. 04:49 They are out in the streets and they are working. 04:52 They are seeking to proselytize and share what their faith is, 04:57 so while I may not ultimately agree 04:59 with their theological positions. 05:02 I do give them absolute credit for being out there 05:06 and proselytizing and wanting to share their faith... 05:11 Which I think if I may interject 05:13 which I think that's so important 05:16 because that then starts you 05:19 from a place of mutual respect. 05:20 Yes. 05:22 You respect 05:23 even if you disagree with their position, right? 05:25 You're respecting the fact 05:28 that they've even taken the time 05:30 to come out and to talk to 05:32 because some of our folks aren't doing that. 05:33 That's true. Yeah. 05:35 Right. 05:36 We're not, we're not, 05:37 we're not taking the time to go on 05:39 from door to door sometimes and talk to people. 05:42 Which is sad too because I mean, 05:44 you see some of these dedication, 05:46 people are dedicated out there in suits 05:49 and it's burning hot outside, 05:51 they're out there in suits and passing stuff out 05:53 and talking to people and everything like then, 05:56 we need to see more of that within our own church. 05:59 And what does go up boils down too, Jason, 06:02 is what is our value of what we regard as truth. 06:06 If we have a great value of truths, 06:09 then we will be out there sharing that. 06:12 If we don't have a great value for truths, 06:15 then we don't believe that it's important enough 06:17 to go out and share this with other people. 06:21 That's pretty indicting, you know. 06:23 I mean, really, how important is it to you. 06:26 That's the ultimate question. 06:28 How important is it to you 06:30 that you will take the time yourself 06:33 to share it with someone 06:34 even if he's not going from door to door 06:37 but just sharing it with someone, so... 06:39 Oh, go ahead, Jason. 06:40 And do you recognize the sense of urgency. 06:42 Do you truly believe that we're living in the last days? 06:45 I mean, do you believe that Christ is coming back soon 06:48 because if you do, 06:50 then like you said 06:51 you would be sharing that with people. 06:53 That, Jason, and the fact that every person that we meet 06:57 whether he's on the street, on the job, in the classroom, 07:01 wherever it might be, 07:02 we should look at every individual 07:04 that we meet as a candidate for the kingdom of heaven. 07:08 And if we look at people that way, 07:11 we will then have an urge and a mission from God 07:16 to win this soul over to Christ for eternity. 07:20 So there is an absolute need, 07:22 and one of the things about the valuation 07:26 of what we believe is that 07:29 if, well, there are four things number one, 07:33 the fact that Christ died for truth, 07:35 so we ought to have an elevated value for truth. 07:39 There are millions during the Dark Ages, 07:42 as many as 50 million people 07:45 who lost their lives because of the value of truth. 07:48 They would not sell off truth 07:50 because they valued it too much and they said, 07:53 "We will give our lives before we give up the truth." 07:57 So we are sanctified thirdly by the truth 08:01 we're told by the Apostle Paul. 08:03 So it is truth 08:05 that sanctifies the church and us as individuals. 08:08 So we must and, 08:11 and we must have an elevated 08:16 view of what God has given us in the scriptures 08:20 and nothing less than truth will do. 08:23 You probably know, Yvonne, 08:27 John writes I believe it's in 2 John 2:1, 08:31 that no lie is of the truth and, you know, myself 08:36 and Florentine Cyle, my fiance, 08:40 we do our missionary work together. 08:42 We go to different churches together, 08:45 and we fish for souls together. 08:47 We sit down and we give our Bible studies together. 08:50 And so there's this one young man 08:52 that we're giving Bible studies to currently, 08:55 and he was pretty much in the Mormon Church. 08:59 He had one foot in there and then we ran across 09:03 and he began to take Bible studies 09:05 we've now been studying with him for three months. 09:08 And so now he has completely disavowed any concept 09:12 because we've gone through the doctrines 09:14 and teachings of much of the LDS, 09:18 and so he has now disavowed that. 09:20 And now he's looking in another direction 09:22 in terms of biblical truth. 09:24 What was he before he met you? 09:27 Before he met them, 09:28 before he started studying with them? 09:29 Catholic. Okay. 09:31 He was Catholic. Okay. 09:32 And then he got, began to study with Mormons 09:36 and he was just about there, he was going consistently, 09:39 they were like a family to him and so, 09:42 we had our work cut out for us, 09:44 because oftentimes people who are in churches 09:47 who consider their fellow church members 09:50 more of a family is very difficult for them 09:53 to objectively look at truth for what it is, 09:56 then make a decision on truth, 09:58 so we knew that we had our work cut out for us. 10:00 But the Holy Spirit and the Word of God 10:04 really has convicted this man. 10:06 He has accepted many of the Bible doctrines 10:09 that we've presented to him. 10:11 He has, he's on board. 10:13 He's been attending church with us. 10:16 And so his value of truth has changed from a feeling 10:22 about what you believe 10:24 to actually what does the Bible say 10:27 about what truth is and so... 10:29 That's such a good point, 10:30 you know because in this day and time, 10:33 so many people feel as though truth is relative 10:36 like what is your truth? 10:38 Yes. 10:39 Haven't you heard that? Yeah, that's pretty scary. 10:40 I know, what is your truth? What is your truth? 10:43 My truth is well, wait a minute now. 10:46 What is the objective source 10:48 upon which we base this idea of truth? 10:52 It certainly can't come from inside of us. 10:54 It has to come from some objective source 10:57 which for us is the Bible. 10:59 Absolutely and this young man 11:01 and I can just say his name is Jose. 11:03 His name is Jose. 11:05 In our study maybe about a month or so ago, 11:08 we were studying a particular topic 11:10 and he made the following statement 11:12 and he didn't mean any harm in this. 11:15 It was just a statement in the course of our study 11:17 and he says to us, Flo and myself, he says, 11:21 "Well, you know, no church has all of the truth." 11:25 And I said, "Well, Jose, wait a minute. 11:27 You know, think about what you just said, 11:30 God has given us all of the truth." 11:33 And in John 16:13, 11:37 the Bible promises 11:39 that the Holy Spirit would lead us 11:41 not into some of the truth or most of the truth, 11:44 but would lead us into all of the truth, 11:47 so all of the truths we have in the scriptures, 11:51 the Holy Spirit can open up to our understanding, 11:53 and there are people and there are churches 11:58 who do have all of the truth. 12:01 There, you know, I'm thinking 12:02 one particular church has all of the truth. 12:05 We ought to stop being ashamed to say it. 12:08 We ought to stop being ashamed to admit it that, 12:12 you know, and whatever church our listeners belong to. 12:16 If you're not convinced 12:18 that your church has all of the truths, 12:21 then you really need to begin to reassess 12:23 and reexamine and recalibrate 12:26 where your devotions and, 12:28 and where your affections lie theologically. 12:32 It's interesting too 12:33 because when you look at how Satan did things, 12:35 like he would give you some truth, 12:37 he would give you that 95 to 99% 12:42 but that one percent of lie made the whole thing a lie. 12:48 Excellent point, Jason. 12:50 Because every error is corrosive to the truth. 12:55 Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." 12:58 So every error, every misstatement of truth, 13:01 every misleading concept of what we have in the Bible 13:05 serves to separate us and segregate us 13:09 further and further away 13:11 from him who has declared he is the truth. 13:15 So what are some of the tenets 13:19 of the Church of Latter-day Saints and how do they, 13:23 how is it different from what the Bible teaches. 13:28 Let me first say 13:29 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 13:32 are some of the best people 13:34 that you will run into 13:36 in terms of their sociality, their family, 13:40 their emphasis and value of family, 13:44 their dietary habits, 13:48 their reverence towards God, 13:50 when they go into their churches 13:52 and you see the children and the parents, 13:54 they are dressed 13:56 as if they are meeting to serve God 13:58 and you can't say that about every church so, 14:01 there's some wonderful things 14:02 about all of these churches out here that we have had, 14:05 particularly Flo and I have had a chance to visit. 14:08 The problem comes when we place the teachings 14:13 under the scrutiny of the Holy Scriptures. 14:17 Then there are many problems. 14:20 We do not believe that God was a man at one time 14:24 and then worked his way up into his position of God, 14:27 we do not believe that. 14:28 We do not believe that Jesus 14:31 married Mary and had children. 14:35 We do not believe that. 14:37 We do not believe in priesthood 14:40 outside of Levitical Priesthood. 14:42 We don't believe that. 14:44 We don't believe that 14:45 we can be baptized for people who have died. 14:48 We simply don't believe that. 14:49 We don't believe that the Sabbath day 14:53 which I want to commend many Mormons 14:57 for how they keep their day of worship. 15:00 Unfortunately, the Bible gives us 15:03 a different day of worship 15:05 in which to God declares is holy. 15:08 And we should say, they keep Sunday 15:11 and the Bible teaches the seventh day... 15:12 And the Bible teaches the seventh day of the week 15:14 which is the Sabbath. 15:15 We do not believe that our communion services 15:18 which they have every week 15:19 that water is the substitute for grape juice 15:24 that the New Testament indicates 15:27 as a figurative symbolism 15:31 of the blood of Jesus. 15:33 So we do not believe that. 15:35 And, you know, I can go on and on and on. 15:39 There are some varied, 15:41 not only basic theological tenets 15:44 that are out of keeping with the scripture 15:47 but there are some damnable teachings, 15:52 the blood atonement. 15:54 We do not believe as Christians 15:56 that there are some sins 15:58 that the blood of Jesus cannot atone for. 16:01 Such as in their denomination, what is, 16:04 like what are some of the things? 16:05 One of the examples is murder. 16:08 Another example is... 16:12 You know it used to be interracial marriage 16:16 where this was came under the blood atonement 16:20 where you could not atone for that sin that, that... 16:24 I'm sorry that Jesus could not atone for that sin. 16:27 You have to atone with your own life 16:30 for the sin of murder 16:32 or for the sin of interracial marriage. 16:34 They put interracial marriage on the level of murder. 16:37 Not only that but the teaching 16:39 was that it was from Brigham Young actually, 16:42 who has a spouse 16:45 some of the most hateful rhetoric 16:47 when it comes to race relations anywhere in any denomination. 16:52 There's a school named after him of course, 16:54 if you heard Brigham Young University 16:58 and the church and I can say this, the church, 17:01 many of the church members are not very proud 17:03 of Brigham Young and some of the things 17:05 he had to say with regard to race. 17:07 But one of the things that he said 17:08 is the only way to atone for a black person 17:13 or an African marrying a white person 17:16 is that the mother of the children be killed 17:21 as well as the children themselves. 17:23 So this comes under the blood atonement 17:25 you can't just ask Jesus to forgive you of this sin, 17:29 but you must go through this blood atonement 17:32 where you yourself must be sacrificed. 17:35 You know the issue of polygamy. 17:38 The issue of the authority of inspiration, 17:42 whereas today you and I, we look at the Bible, 17:44 the scriptures as final authority 17:46 for inspired doctrine in truth and theology. 17:51 But in the LDS Church, any apostle, living apostle 17:56 or prophet has equal authority 18:00 as the Apostle Paul 18:02 or Moses or Isaiah 18:05 or John or Luke 18:07 or any of the other apostles to change and to disfigure 18:12 what we have in the Holy Scriptures. 18:14 We do not believe that, we absolutely reject that. 18:17 We know that the scriptures as given in the Word of God 18:20 the 66 books, 18:22 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New, 18:25 these are our sacred, 18:27 holy guide that leads us to the pathway of heaven. 18:31 Yeah. 18:32 Now, he is preaching, doesn't he? 18:34 I know it, I'm loving it, I'm loving it. 18:36 So, you know when, when, 18:39 when Mormons or LDS people come to your home. 18:44 They... 18:45 I'm sure when they come to your home, 18:47 they're not telling you 18:48 about that whole picture of like interracial relations 18:53 for you know for a long time blacks couldn't even be, 18:58 they couldn't even come into the temple 18:59 from what I understand. 19:00 Or hold higher offices... 19:02 Yeah. Until 1983. 19:04 Yeah, it was 19:08 an interesting journey but, 19:10 and this is not in any way to put down their denomination 19:14 but it's just a kind of open up 19:17 what, what they have espoused 19:21 and, and the journey that they have, 19:23 and how it compares with the word. 19:26 So when they come to your home 19:28 and especially yours as an African-American, 19:30 they're not going to be talking about that part 19:32 and I don't think they even, 19:34 some of them might not even know about that. 19:37 Correct, Yvonne. 19:38 Right? You're absolutely right. 19:41 There are many Mormons that we've talked about. 19:43 A lot of the doctrines and theories and theologies 19:47 that the members have no idea. 19:50 I can tell you of all of the missionaries 19:52 had come to my house, 19:53 they run into problems answering questions 19:56 so they would get a higher up to come, 19:58 he can't answer so they get to next higher. 20:00 And they would go four, five, six deep 20:03 and in front of us, 20:05 in front of Flo and myself 20:07 these missionaries are confronted with doctrines 20:09 and theories that they never knew, 20:11 no one ever told them these things, 20:14 but one of the first things that I look at 20:18 when an LDS will come to my door. 20:20 The first thing 20:21 I need to establish is authority, 20:23 and I would say this about any group or person 20:27 that you're dealing with that will come to you 20:29 and I say this to all of our viewers, 20:31 the first thing you want to establish 20:33 is what is authority. 20:34 If I have certain set of beliefs 20:36 and you have certain set of beliefs, 20:38 what settles the argument? 20:41 Now, what settles it? 20:42 If you don't get that right in the beginning, 20:45 you will be going from now until, 20:49 you know, to doomsday 20:51 trying to argue as what's right or what's wrong. 20:54 Now, in the Book of 2 Nephi, 20:56 this is in the Book of Mormon 20:58 and there are three books that they equate 21:02 with equal authority to the Bible. 21:04 You have the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, 21:06 Doctrines and Covenants, and these books constitute, 21:12 they're inspired writings from Joseph Smith. 21:15 So one of the first things you have to do 21:18 is settle on 21:19 what is it that are we going to accept as authority 21:22 to determine all of the whatever disputes we may have, 21:27 what's going to determine 21:29 the true answer to this in the dispute. 21:32 So in 2 Nephi, I believe it's 29:6. 21:38 It says that there are people 21:42 who believe in the Bible only are fools. 21:47 So Joseph Smith believes 21:50 and in the Book of 2 Nephi 21:52 and there are some other books within the Book of Mormon, 21:54 that if all you believe in is the Holy Scriptures, 21:58 then you are a fool, that you are misguided. 22:02 Now they won't tell you this 22:03 when they come through the door, 22:05 but you go through, you know, 22:07 you do your research and you kind of know 22:08 where things are and, 22:11 but what you have to get them to do, 22:13 and sometimes they will be willing to do this 22:15 and sometimes they won't. 22:17 Particularly missionaries or typically younger 22:20 and you say to them, 22:22 well, you might believe in the Book of Mormon 22:24 the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, 22:28 but I only believe in the Holy Scriptures. 22:30 And I think that if we're going to get anywhere down the line, 22:34 we need to accept the Bible, 22:35 we need to get truth from the Bible, 22:37 and then if you can convince me on down the line 22:40 that Joseph Smith was a true prophet 22:43 or whatever, then we can deal with that at that point, 22:45 but for now let's just stick with the Bible. 22:48 If you can do that, Jason, 22:50 if you can localize 22:52 what is a source of proof and stick to that, 22:58 then you will be a long way 23:00 in trying to lead the discussion 23:05 in a profitable way 23:06 that of course leads us back to what God has said. 23:10 Otherwise it's just being on in circles. 23:11 In circles, you do that for years. 23:14 So the first thing that you need to do 23:16 when they come, 23:18 when once the discussion has begun 23:20 is to establish that the Bible is going to be the basis, 23:25 the foundation for your conversation. 23:28 Let them know that you're willing to discuss. 23:31 And again, I want to let our viewers know. 23:35 I do not recommend that you do 23:38 what I do or what Flo and I will do. 23:43 Most of us are not prepared to go into other churches 23:48 or deal with people of great theological background 23:52 with lots of letters, 23:55 what that will result in 23:57 is you yourself might get to a set up, 24:00 so we don't recommend that. 24:03 I do that simply because of the background 24:06 that the Holy Spirit has given to me 24:08 in terms of Christian apologetics. 24:10 And there are a lot of our viewers 24:11 who perhaps have gone to theological school 24:14 and so you have a basis, 24:17 maybe you've done research and papers 24:19 and maybe books or periodicals, 24:22 and so, yes, you're prepared to do that. 24:24 I simply would not advise 24:28 that everyone go into the lions' den 24:31 so to speak and do what we do. 24:33 What I would recommend 24:36 is that we are prepared enough 24:38 with our knowledge in the Scriptures. 24:40 So that like Paul says, 24:42 "We can earnestly contend for the faith." 24:46 And this is what the Bible says in Jude 3, 24:49 that we earnestly contend for the faith. 24:51 Paul says, "I am set for the defense of the gospel." 24:54 So we need to defend, we need to earnestly contain. 24:58 We need to be prepared to enter into these discussions 25:00 with people of various faiths 25:03 to defend the truthfulness of this book 25:07 that we call the Bible. 25:08 Now, somebody might say 25:10 in kind of a bumper sticker fashion that well, 25:13 the Bible doesn't need defending. 25:15 I disagree with you. 25:17 If for no other reason Paul says that it does. 25:21 That we must earnestly contend, 25:23 that we must stand in defense of the Bible so when I'm... 25:26 when you're dealing 25:27 with someone of a different faith, 25:30 you first... 25:31 The first rule is to decide what is authority? 25:36 And once you decide what is authority, 25:39 then everyone is locked into an agreement 25:42 that you can't go outside of this, 25:44 that we agree that this is what 25:46 is going to decide these issues. 25:47 Right, right okay, 25:48 so that's the first step 25:50 determining that the Bible is the foundation. 25:53 What do you do next? 25:54 The second thing that you do is to try as far as possible 25:59 to deal with things which are in mutual agreement. 26:04 Things that you, that both of you can agree on, 26:07 the things that you may have in common, 26:10 whether it's Jehovah's Witnesses. 26:11 There are some things that all of us 26:13 have in common with Jehovah's Witnesses. 26:15 There's a lot we don't, 26:16 but there are some things that we do. 26:18 With LDS there are some things that we hold in common. 26:20 I mentioned some of them earlier 26:22 or whether a Lutheran or Baptist. 26:25 You'd be surprised the people that Flo 26:28 and I have talked to, the churches 26:30 that we've been to fishing 26:32 for souls in the conversations that we've had, 26:34 how for years we've had denominations, 26:37 people of various denominations 26:40 coming into our home 26:41 or, you know, into my home and they come over once a week 26:45 and then we're all there for months and months 26:47 and months, months and months. 26:49 So once we establish what is, what is authority? 26:52 The next thing we do is try to see 26:55 what are the points of agreement? 26:57 What is that we can agree on, that we can, 27:00 you know, not battle about. 27:02 You don't want to start out, 27:04 whether it shows what is the LDS, 27:06 you don't want to start out 27:07 with World War II in your studies. 27:09 Right. 27:10 Let's talk about 27:11 what the scripture says in the Bible. 27:14 What the blood of Jesus has meant to you and me, 27:17 and how it is a life transformative 27:20 experience for us 27:22 to know Jesus as personal savior. 27:24 See, we can talk about those things 27:25 and we can go to scriptures, 27:27 you know, and deal with these things. 27:29 So the second thing and answer to your question, 27:32 a long answer to a short question 27:34 is talk about things that you have agreement on. 27:37 Yes, see that's really good 27:38 because what you're doing 27:39 is you are not starting from an adversarial place, 27:45 but you're starting from a place of commonality 27:47 so that, you can again establish, 27:51 okay, this is what we both believe. 27:53 We believe this because this is scriptural, 27:57 so you're actually reinforcing 27:59 what the scripture says 28:00 before you go into what's the difference. 28:03 Like a theological icebreaker. 28:05 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly, Jason. 28:08 When we look at the life of Jesus in his ministry, 28:13 how many fights did he start? 28:15 He didn't start very many. 28:17 What he looked for was needs in the other person, 28:22 and so what I look for when someone comes to my door, 28:26 they have a need. 28:28 We know that the ultimate need is they want to drag me down 28:31 to their house of worship and baptize me, 28:33 we understand that, 28:35 I know that's their bid, all the need is, 28:37 but in our conversations there are needs 28:40 that you can cue in on, 28:42 that's what they would like to hear. 28:44 And in many cases I give them what they want to hear 28:47 so long as it's consistent with my beliefs. 28:50 So if it's a Mormon, if it's a Jehovah's Witness 28:52 or Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic, whatever it is, 28:57 there are things and this goes to the my second point of 29:00 certainly you want to talk about things you can agree on. 29:05 But you also want to look for openings 29:07 in terms of what people believe. 29:09 Keep in mind that there is reason 29:11 why they are at your door. 29:12 And they want to continue to come 29:16 because they will then be able go back to their churches 29:19 and report that they met Philip Ammons 29:22 and this guy seems interested in what they are believing. 29:26 So we want to keep going back to his house 29:28 because he's opened his door to us 29:30 and we can have these discussions, 29:32 so by all means I want to play into that, 29:35 and there are times where I play pretty dumb. 29:39 Now, some of my friends might say 29:40 there's not a whole lot of play work with that, 29:43 but the fact is 29:45 that in some of my initial meetings with people, 29:50 I will, I will play is as almost as dumb 29:53 as they want in terms of, in terms of 29:58 leading them to believe 30:01 that I am open to what they have to offer. 30:05 I know that they will then keep coming back 30:08 and, and that's what I want for them to keep coming back. 30:12 And as they keep coming back, 30:13 I begin to present things to them 30:16 that either they did not know 30:19 or they have a very difficult time with. 30:21 I was... 30:22 Flo and I were sitting with Jehovah's Witnesses 30:25 not very long ago in my living room 30:28 and we were going over John 1, 30:32 "In the beginning was the Word, in the Word was with God, 30:33 and the Word was God." 30:35 And of course they have a problem with that 30:36 and they translate the word was God, 30:39 they translate that as a God. 30:42 I won't go into all of the Greek structures to why, 30:44 but that's the ultimate translation. 30:47 So my question to them then, 30:49 I said, well, now wait a minute, 30:51 if Jesus is merely a God, 30:54 then we go to John 17 30:56 and Jesus says of God the Father 30:59 that he is the only God 31:01 and outside of him there is no God, 31:04 then how could Jesus be a God, 31:07 because if God is the only God and that makes. 31:10 I'm sorry, in John 17, Jesus says of God, 31:13 "You are the only true God." 31:16 So then if Jesus is a God 31:19 and God the Father is the only true God, 31:22 then that makes Jesus a false God. 31:24 So how do you explain that to me I ask, 31:27 and there was no explanation coming 31:29 other than we'll find the answer to you... 31:32 for you. 31:34 Joseph Smith in 1821 31:38 or thereabout depending on 31:39 what you read from 1821, 1823 31:43 has this experience 31:47 where God the Father 31:49 and the Son appears to him in his bedroom. 31:53 Now again, depending on which Mormon story you read, 31:57 some stories will say this happened out in the wilderness, 32:00 others say that no, it happened in his bedroom 32:03 but whichever the fact is that he says, 32:07 he saw God the Father and God the Son. 32:09 So then I ask the missionaries 32:14 I said, now wait a minute, 32:16 in at least three different passages of the Bible, 32:21 the Bible says, 32:22 "No man have seen God at any time." 32:25 So how do you explain this? 32:27 And then I think the initial offering 32:30 which is very weak was, well, 32:34 you know maybe no Godhead... 32:35 No one had seen God at any time at that point 32:38 and I said, "Well, that's not true," 32:40 because you go back to Exodus 33:20 32:43 and God says, that no man can, 32:46 in other words there is not the, 32:48 the ability for man to see God the Father at any time. 32:52 So people then 32:55 and I will briefly just say to you 32:58 how these things play out for me and for Flo. 33:03 They come over to the house, 33:06 we have a very nice one or two or three sessions. 33:10 Then we begin to raise very difficult questions, 33:14 then they take notes and say that they will get back to us, 33:18 then these questions begin to amass 33:23 until it gets to the point 33:25 where they are unmanageable to where, 33:27 you know, we're now 20, 23 questions in 33:29 and you've got, 33:30 now I got back to us about question number one. 33:33 Then they will go and get someone 33:35 from the Kingdom Hall 33:37 or someone from the church 33:38 who is supposed to know much better and they will come. 33:42 Then that person gets stuck in the mud. 33:44 Then there's a second person that comes 33:46 who's supposed to be higher than him 33:48 and we've gone all the way up the chain 33:51 in terms of in many cases with Jehovah's Witnesses 33:54 and with Mormons, 33:57 we've had state leaders sitting in my living room, 34:00 they're trying to explain things 34:03 in front of the missionaries and the Mormons, 34:06 in front of the missionaries 34:08 things had completely fall apart 34:10 and then we resort to e-mails, 34:12 long e-mails going back and forth. 34:14 So what I'm trying to say in a nutshell 34:17 is for our viewers don't get frustrated 34:21 with this, with the process, 34:22 you gonna have to go through give and take, 34:24 there's going to be some very long laborious e-mails 34:30 and discussions going on, 34:32 but hang in there with it 34:34 because the Lord may not bring these people in right away, 34:38 but at some point 34:40 they will be brought to a point of decision 34:44 and the Holy Spirit will bring back to their memory 34:46 many things that you have implanted within them, 34:49 so patience is a key. 34:50 Right, I think what you're doing is you are... 34:54 you and Flo are planting the seeds. 34:57 Even if they don't make the decision right then, 35:01 that those questions 35:03 are going to be in their heads... 35:04 Right. Well, what about this. 35:05 Well, the Book of Mormon teaches that 35:08 or the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own Bible 35:11 I think because, because basically 35:13 what you're saying 35:15 is these things are transferable 35:16 from denomination to denomination... 35:18 It is. 35:19 Because these points of finding 35:23 first of all not being confrontational 35:25 when you first start, 35:26 then finding areas of commonality 35:29 and then opening up, 35:32 planting the seeds, 35:34 all of that transfers 35:35 across the denomination lines, correct. 35:38 So if you do that, 35:41 as you do that first of all the Holy Spirit 35:44 if you have prayed 35:45 the Holy Spirit 35:46 is going to guide that conversation... 35:48 Absolutely. 35:49 So that you're not just out there by yourself. 35:52 Absolutely. 35:53 So that's one thing, and then, secondly, 35:55 you have to equip yourself, 35:58 you can't just go in there and as you were saying, 36:01 you know, you can't just go in there 36:03 and, and try to have this conversation 36:05 without having studied, you need to study. 36:08 And I think this is an important thing. 36:10 The Bible of course says 36:11 that we were to study to show ourselves approved unto God. 36:14 Workman that needeth not to be ashamed, 36:15 rightly dividing the word of truth. 36:17 So if we study for ourselves 36:21 then we can, 36:22 the Holy Spirit's job 36:24 is to bring back to our remembrance 36:25 that which we study. 36:26 Absolutely. 36:28 And it can bring back to your remembrance 36:29 that which you didn't study... 36:30 That which you didn't study... That which you didn't study. 36:32 Exactly. 36:33 Oh... 36:35 How do you go about talking to someone 36:36 who doesn't believe in God at all 36:38 or who doesn't believe in the God 36:41 that we believe in, 36:43 they might believe in Allah or one of these other ones. 36:46 Excellent question, Jason, 36:48 and this is as well a part of apologetics. 36:51 The existence of God and you talk to people, 36:56 and oftentimes when I talk to people 36:58 who don't believe in any God. 37:00 It really is a step by step process. 37:05 What I tend to do 37:06 is I try to appeal on the basis of logic 37:09 that, you know, where did the world come from? 37:13 Where did the universe come from? 37:15 How do we get where we are. 37:16 How is it that we have 37:18 such complexity 600 muscles in the human eye? 37:21 Are you really saying that, that's by accident? 37:24 What about first cause, where everything come from? 37:27 The first law of thermodynamics tells us, 37:31 that nothing is created or disappears 37:36 but energy merely changes form. 37:39 Well, if that's the case 37:41 then at what point do we have the first elements of matter. 37:46 You say, well there was an explosion 37:49 and then and then that's how we got the earth, okay. 37:52 Well, then where did the matter come from for the explosion, 37:56 and then the science, 37:57 the school of evolutionary science 38:00 used to say, 38:01 well, it was a bunch of gases 38:03 that created the solid matter 38:05 which then led to the explosions. 38:08 Well, then now the question is where did the gas come from? 38:10 Yeah. 38:12 And so, and so now you will find 38:14 that in the most critical areas of science 38:20 that many scientists, 38:22 evolutionists now are saying 38:25 that we have to concede that at some point 38:28 there was some creation of something. 38:30 In fact, they will use the term creation 38:33 but not in the same sense 38:34 as the Christian uses the term creation. 38:37 But they will concede that at some point 38:40 there was nothing and then there was something, 38:42 so this is a, 38:43 this is a huge departure scientifically 38:47 from what we were looking at for many, many centuries 38:49 before all the way up to 1970s. 38:52 And so you have to start in dealing with someone like that. 38:55 You know and then if you're dealing with a person, 38:57 just common person in the street, 38:59 there are things you can use that just make logical sense. 39:02 For instance and I make this quick, 39:04 I know we're running out of time that, you know, 39:06 to assume that we have this big explosion, 39:09 and as a result of that 39:11 we have all of this complexity is like 39:13 saying that you take a bomb, 39:15 an atom bomb and you detonate a house 39:19 and the house goes into a million pieces 39:21 and then all of a million pieces come back 39:24 perfectly in the form of a house. 39:26 You know, what's the likelihood of that... 39:28 Right. 39:29 And of course, we know that these kinds of things 39:32 certainly are not likely. 39:33 And so when you look at the universe, 39:35 when you look at nature, 39:36 when you look at all of the things 39:38 that God has provided for us as proof 39:39 that there is a higher intelligence 39:42 then one really has to fight against the natural inclination 39:48 that there is an intelligent design to the universe. 39:50 Absolutely. 39:51 And one thing that really gets under my skin is 39:54 when people worship the created as opposed to the creator. 39:56 Yes. 39:57 You know people say, "Oh, put it into the universe." 39:59 Who do you think created the universe? 40:01 Absolutely. 40:02 Why would you go to the created and not the creator. 40:06 Jason, you're preaching the gospel, 40:09 I was with a young lady we had just come out of, 40:13 we were on a break, we were in trial. 40:16 That's what I do, you know, most in my paid life. 40:19 You know I mean the legal profession. 40:21 And so we were at lunch with our client and she... 40:25 We cross the street at this high rise 40:27 and she got up some... 40:30 I forget the meal that she got. 40:33 It was a meat, 40:36 it was not a vegetarian meal 40:37 and so she bowed her head and prayed 40:39 and then when she was done 40:41 she was oh, she says, "I was just praying 40:44 to the cow that provided the meat 40:47 thanking them for my meal." 40:49 What? Wow. 40:51 And when you're in a place like Seattle now, 40:53 we're here in the Northwest 40:55 where that may be kind of odd in many parts, 40:58 but when you're in places like the Northwest, 41:00 like Seattle, this is very, very normal. 41:02 Really? 41:04 Praying to the cow so the dead cow 41:07 that she's getting ready to eat, 41:09 she's praying to the cow. 41:11 For providing the meal. 41:12 For providing the... 41:14 Okay, yeah, 41:16 that's a different way of looking at things. 41:18 Well, you know for me, you know, it was, you know, 41:22 it was very challenging to, you know, 41:23 keep a straight face. 41:25 Yeah. 41:26 But there are people that have all kinds of beliefs and, 41:30 you know, we have to grant hit that 41:33 what they believe they sincerely believe, 41:36 and then what Jesus did, 41:38 he lead them from the known to the unknown, 41:41 and so what you and I have to do 41:43 when we're running across people of whatever 41:46 beliefs tribe is we have to lead them from the known 41:49 and we have to lead them step by step to the known. 41:52 And that's a... 41:55 Wait from the known to the... 41:56 from the unknown to the known 41:58 or from the known to the unknown? 42:00 We lead them from the known to the unknown. 42:01 For instance when Jesus told parables about the farmers 42:06 and about the seed that was known to the people. 42:09 They knew how the farmer would spread seeds, 42:13 but with that known he led them to the unknown. 42:16 That's what I liked about Christ too, 42:18 is like when he preached, 42:19 he found something that people could relate... 42:21 Yes. 42:22 He could draw lessons from what they already know 42:25 and teach them what the message 42:28 he wanted to convey. 42:29 Can I tell you a very quickly, Jason, on that point. 42:33 This is few years ago, 42:35 but we went to a house and we knocked on the door 42:39 and we could hear the television blaring, 42:42 it was Saturday afternoon, 42:44 big college football game and finally, 42:48 you know, and they knew we were at the door. 42:50 They just didn't want to answer. 42:51 But finally the man comes to the door. 42:53 You know, what do you want. 42:55 And we knew that they were watching the football game 42:59 and the man said to us, 43:01 "Look, you guys got to have to hurry 43:02 because this big game fourth quarter." 43:05 And what we said was, 43:08 "Sir, do you realize that we are in the fourth quarter 43:13 of the history of the world 43:15 and you and I need to have our attention focused 43:19 on eternal life like we've never had before." 43:22 Do you know that this gentleman 43:24 who I was able to deal with the known 43:26 to the unknown said, "Come in, come in." 43:31 He said, you know 43:32 that we don't watch the last few minutes 43:33 but I want to hear what you have to say 43:35 and through that we started a series of Bible studies. 43:37 We had colporteurs go to the house. 43:39 So you have to in just about every case 43:43 looking at the ministry of Jesus 43:45 start with what is known 43:47 to the person that you're dealing with, 43:49 and then lead them to the unknown. 43:51 I love that, that's, that's great 43:53 because that you're starting at a place of mutuality, 43:58 something they can relate to 43:59 and then you take them to the next step. 44:01 But you have to build from one place to the next, 44:04 you can't take them all the way here 44:07 without starting at point A. 44:09 So again if a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door, 44:15 and I know one of their beliefs 44:17 that they don't believe in the Trinity. 44:18 Correct. 44:20 And so, what do you... 44:23 what do you say to them 44:26 because they have their own Bible. 44:27 Yeah. 44:29 And I guess the Mormons do too, 44:30 they have the Book of Mormon and all that, so... 44:32 Right. 44:33 What do you say to a Jehovah's Witness 44:36 that is saying to you that Jesus wasn't divine 44:41 that there was no Trinity, that kind of thing? 44:43 Right. 44:45 There are so many different ways to approach this. 44:51 If you don't mind, 44:52 I'll just borrow from my most recent experience. 44:54 Please, please, that's great. 44:56 Where, you know, 44:57 they're coming to the house every week. 44:58 So this is all, this always becomes 45:02 a cornerstone issue with Jehovah's Witnesses. 45:05 It is the deity or the divinity of Christ 45:08 where they feel that Christ was created. 45:10 Now, one has to be careful in that, 45:16 there are some of us 45:18 who are able to go into the Greek 45:21 to an extent the Hebrew, the biblical languages, 45:24 the history of biblical manuscripts, autographs, 45:27 and so we're able to talk at a certain level 45:32 that hopefully they will understand 45:35 and will see the handwriting on the wall. 45:37 Not everyone can do it. 45:38 Not all of your viewers going to be able to do that. 45:40 But you know with the, 45:41 with the Hebrew Greek key study Bible 45:43 and stuff like that. 45:45 If you dig... 45:46 Yeah, if you dig... 45:47 You can, you can, you know, use some of that. 45:49 Yeah, you can use some of that. 45:51 You know but Greek is tough stuff. 45:52 Oh, yeah. 45:54 I have to take a lot of quarters of Greek 45:55 when I was a little kid. I never did Greek. 45:57 Thank God for like the... 45:58 Thank God for the Bibles that have like the Greek word 46:01 and then the English and stuff like that 46:03 because there is no way. 46:05 Absolutely. But go ahead. 46:06 But so here's your ways to approach that. 46:09 There are so many powerful proofs in the scripture 46:14 that support the divinity of Jesus. 46:17 We start with, you know, John 1:1 through... 46:21 "In the beginning was word, the word was with God, 46:23 and the word was God." 46:24 The word was God. 46:27 John 5:17, 46:29 where Jesus talks about the fact 46:31 that I am my father, 46:33 I work and my Father work, 46:35 and this is a form of the Greek there is a form of equality 46:41 that he puts himself on equality with the Father. 46:44 It's called a coordinating conjunction in the Greek 46:48 which means that my Father works 46:49 and I who is equal to my Father work as well. 46:53 And this is why in the very next verse, 46:54 in verse 18 the Jews pick up stones to stone him 46:58 because he was making himself equal to God. 47:01 John 8:58 47:04 before Abraham was I am. 47:07 This is the same structure that's in Exodus 3:14, 47:12 where he tells Moses, tell them, 47:14 "I am sent thee, I am that I am." 47:17 So he puts himself on equality with God. 47:21 In the Book of Genesis, Genesis 1 talks about, 47:25 "In the beginning God created heaven and the earth." 47:27 Well, the word God there is the word Elohim, 47:30 which is the plural majesties. 47:31 L is singular Hebrew for God, 47:34 but Elohim which appears over 2,600 times 47:37 in the Hebrew Old Testament is for plural majesties well, 47:41 who could beat the plural majesties. 47:44 Well, in Chapter 1:26, he says, 47:47 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." 47:51 And so we know that Jesus is the one 47:53 who created all things 47:55 and we know this from John 1 47:56 and other passages in the New Testament 47:58 that he's a creator. 47:59 So Jesus was there. 48:01 We know that from Genesis 1:2 that the Holy Spirit was there, 48:05 that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 48:07 So these plural majesties 48:09 as we see in Elohim in the Old Testament 48:12 is none other than Jesus Christ 48:15 the Holy Spirit, God the Father, 48:16 and we see the unity throughout scripture 48:19 of all three of these, 48:22 and again the amount of scripture 48:24 is just overwhelming. 48:26 And you know when Jehovah's Witness come to my house, 48:29 I mean there's no reason why after, you know, 48:31 three or four months they gave up, 48:32 don't come and said, 48:34 "We're not coming back." 48:35 But the thing is that what you look for 48:38 when you study with people like Jehovah's Witness, 48:42 LDS or Lutheran or Baptist 48:45 or whatever the case may be. 48:46 Here's what you look for 48:48 because not everyone is going to just 48:50 follow you to the baptismal pool right away. 48:53 Now we've got some people, 48:55 Flo and I that we have made friends 48:56 with at these different churches. 48:58 We're relying on those friendships 49:00 to ultimately yield fruit for the Lord 49:03 in terms of baptism. 49:04 But what you look for is where 49:06 people come to a point in your discussion 49:09 that they have no answers. 49:11 They have no answers to what you're saying. 49:16 You know where Jesus 49:21 or the prophecy the Old or New Testament are making statements 49:24 that absolutely contradicts what their beliefs are, 49:28 and I feel bad for people sitting in front of me 49:31 who believe in their pastors, 49:34 they believe in their churches, 49:35 they believe in their Sunday school teachers, 49:37 and they are now confronted 49:38 with irreconcilable contradictions 49:42 between what they've been taught 49:43 and what the Bible says. 49:44 And my heart goes out to them 49:46 because I imagine how I would feel, you see. 49:49 And so, but you present them with it, 49:51 so the thing that you look for is 49:53 where they have no answers, 49:54 where they're constantly telling you, well, you know, 49:57 we were going to have to go back and study, 49:59 deal with our pastor whatever 50:01 and come back and bring answers to you. 50:03 And then they never come back they, 50:04 they always want to change the subject 50:06 to something else 50:08 and so and then the other, I'll make this quick. 50:11 And the other thing that you look for is 50:14 for a weakening in their position 50:17 to where do I have time for a quick story? 50:22 I was going to ask you to give us the example 50:24 of what you're t telling. 50:25 Okay, here's an example. 50:28 This happened, this is a couple of months ago, 50:30 we're sitting down Flo and I 50:31 with Jehovah's Witnesses. 50:33 No, I'm sorry, we were in the Kingdom Hall 50:35 and they have what's called the Watchtower 50:38 which is the first part of the Bible teaching, 50:40 but they're like their Sunday school 50:42 and then they have the worship part, so... 50:44 Oh, the Watchtower is the same as the periodical 50:46 that they give out? 50:47 Absolutely. Okay. 50:49 Same as a periodical. 50:50 So the first part is called the Watchtower 50:52 and so you go and it's a Watchtower magazine 50:55 that they study from so for this period. 50:58 So I was reading there 51:00 and they were discussing the fact 51:02 that Christendom in Jehovah's Witnesses lingo 51:07 Christian term is a very bad term. 51:09 So if they say, hey, you're in Christendom, don't, 51:12 please don't say thank you. 51:13 It's an insult to you. 51:16 And so, so they were saying how the fact that Christians, 51:21 that Christians are associated with the United Nations 51:25 and they are linked and leagued with the United Nations 51:29 proves how awful Christendom is. 51:33 Well, while I'm sitting there, 51:35 I pulled out my iPhone and I did a little research 51:40 and I found that in 1992, 51:43 the Jehovah's Witnesses had joined themselves 51:46 to the United Nations. 51:49 Now here is the, here is the problem that 51:51 this presented to the people 51:53 that we were studying with because after this, 51:55 the service we would go to their house for our studies. 51:59 And so I asked them about this 52:01 and said you know in the Watchtower today, 52:05 it talked about Christendom being wicked and evil 52:08 because they are so shaded with the United Nations. 52:11 I said, but I discovered 52:14 that the Jehovah's Witnesses church was actually associated 52:19 and joined a subset of the United Nations in 1992. 52:25 I said, so how do you say this about Christendom. 52:28 And you don't point the finger at yourself 52:31 as a church denomination 52:34 for having this spiritual failure. 52:35 How do you account for that? 52:38 And the immediate response was we've not seen that before 52:43 and we frankly don't believe that. 52:46 And so I pulled out my phone and it was right, 52:49 all of the documents and everything were. 52:51 In fact, for the next study, 52:53 I actually printed out a bunch of stuff 52:55 scanned and emailed to them in advance. 52:58 They have all of the paperwork it's, it's all there. 53:01 So when people are confronted with things like this, 53:04 so ultimately what did they say? 53:07 Ultimately, they said, "Well, you know, 53:10 human beings make mistakes 53:12 and we're not saying that our church is perfect. 53:14 Our church makes..." 53:15 Now before is our church would never do that 53:17 you know it's in their Watchtower 53:19 that the Christendom is wicked and evil 53:22 because of this, we would never do that, never. 53:25 And so when you have this, this, 53:27 this ha-ha moment and so now, 53:29 they have to concede that this is unfair. 53:32 So the second thing that you look for is 53:35 after you look for where 53:36 they don't have answers to things 53:38 is you look for retreat, 53:41 and so here is an instance in 1992, 53:44 instance of Jehovah's witnesses 53:45 actually joining the United Nations 53:47 where you have a point of retreat 53:50 where we've got to retreat now, 53:51 we're caught with our hands on the cookie jar 53:54 and so now we have to retreat, we got it 53:56 and so now we're just going to say that, 53:58 well, human beings make mistakes 53:59 and our leaders are not perfect and yeah, 54:02 you know, that kind of thing. 54:03 One of the things that I found is 54:06 because I had a really good friend 54:09 that was Jehovah's Witnesses 54:10 and she and I used to talk a lot, 54:12 and then other times I meet people 54:15 that were Jehovah's Witnesses and we would talk, 54:18 and one of the things that I realize is that 54:20 they have certain proof texts 54:23 that they will go to like sometimes we do, 54:26 but if you don't know more than just those proof texts, 54:31 that's not going to be enough 54:33 because that's one text 54:34 where we might be able to give ten 54:37 that really contradict or put that in a different context. 54:42 It's taken out of context. 54:45 And so one important thing to do I think with them too 54:50 is to think about, 54:53 like look at what they're saying, 54:54 look at what the word is saying, take it, 54:57 don't just use a proof text 55:00 but have several texts that substantiate your position 55:04 because a lot of times 55:06 they're just taught certain texts for certain things... 55:09 Right. And then that's it. 55:11 And they're locked in. And they're locked in. 55:12 You're absolutely right, Yvonne, 55:14 you raised an excellent question... 55:15 an excellent point 55:17 and one that I probably omitted, 55:20 could have stuck in earlier. 55:23 Whenever you're dealing with someone of a different faith, 55:27 you want to... 55:29 Once you establish what authority is, 55:32 you want to lock them into their position. 55:36 This is what we do in court. 55:39 You get a witness on the witness stand 55:41 whether an expert witness or fact witness, 55:43 you lock them into their testimony. 55:46 And then you come later with proof 55:49 that what they have testified to is wrong, 55:52 it's incorrect, it's inaccurate. 55:54 So whenever you're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses 55:57 or an LDS or a Baptist or Lutheran 56:00 or Catholic or whatever it is, 56:01 lock them into what their position is say lip... 56:04 Can you give me an example? Please. 56:06 Here's a... 56:08 We got one minute though I can't believe it. 56:10 Okay. Give a quick example. 56:11 We're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses 56:13 and they do not believe that the earth will burn. 56:16 They do not believe in the word 56:18 that the world will burn by fire. 56:20 So I took them to 2 Peter 3, 56:23 there is one word for burn in there 56:25 that actually means to loosen. 56:27 It means to loosen, 56:29 doesn't mean the fire kind of a burn, 56:30 but it means to loosen, so in looking at this, 56:33 I wanted to lock, I said, 56:34 I want you to just be clear what you're saying 56:36 that in all of the scripture from Genesis, 56:38 Revelation you're saying 56:40 that God will not destroy the world by fire, 56:42 and he said, no, 56:43 why would God ever destroy the world, 56:45 he would never do that. 56:46 Now of course, 56:47 we don't have time to get into the flood 56:49 which I brought up, 56:50 but the other thing is actually read the rest of 2 Peter 3, 56:54 clearly it's talking about fire burning, 56:58 the elements melting with fervent heat. 57:00 It is a clear and cogent statement about God 57:05 that the world will be burned up by fire, 57:08 but I had to lock them into that position 57:10 so that they could not later move. 57:12 Right. 57:13 All of this was good stuff. 57:14 Wasn't that good, Jay? Very, very. 57:16 Thank you so much. 57:17 I don't know where our time went. 57:19 Our time is gone. Pleasure is mine, Yvonne. 57:20 Thank you so much. Jason, pleasure is mine. 57:23 So good to be here. 57:24 Do you have a way for people to reach your website 57:28 or e-mail or something? 57:29 They can just go to 57:30 philip.ammons@comcast.net. 57:37 philip.ammons@comcast.net 57:41 and Philip is spelled with one L. 57:43 One L. 57:44 Ammons with two M's. 57:46 Okay, and then so people can write you 57:49 and maybe invite you to their church. 57:50 Absolutely. 57:52 I love to do it. Thank you. 57:53 Thank you so much and thank you, Jay. 57:55 It was so good. 57:56 And thank you for joining us. 57:58 Join us next time because you know what? 58:00 It just wouldn't be the same without you. |
Revised 2017-01-30