Participants:
Series Code: AFH
Program Code: AFH000019A
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00:01 A good father takes time to play.
00:05 He has strong integrity. 00:08 He is someone that is truly dedicated. 00:12 He is not afraid to show his love. 00:15 He is a caring provider. 00:19 And he is a kind spiritual leader. 00:23 These are just a few ways to describe a father's heart. 00:33 Hi and welcome to A Father's Heart. 00:34 I'm your host Xavier. 00:36 And today, we're going to be discussing broken fathers. 00:39 You know, fathers go through many different things 00:41 such as divorce, maybe they lose a spouse. 00:44 And what are we doing to help these fathers 00:47 to restore them, 00:49 you know, to be able to be complete for their children. 00:52 And with me to discuss that today 00:54 are my friends Gordon and Paul. 00:56 How are you guys? 00:57 Doing good. Doing good. Blessed, brother. 00:59 So broken fathers, you know, 01:01 going through the process of grief 01:03 if you lose a spouse, 01:05 even grief when you get divorced, 01:07 you know, what are we doing to restore these gentlemen 01:10 to be fathers, whole fathers again? 01:14 You know, I haven't personally experienced firsthand 01:19 the brokenness as to lose another spouse 01:23 or, you know, anything of that nature, the only... 01:26 Praise God. Praise the Lord. 01:28 What I've experienced 01:29 is the loss of my father-in-law, 01:32 my wife's dad, and that in itself is traumatic 01:35 'cause I've been a support to her, 01:37 trying to even keep my own self together, 01:40 my own emotions together. 01:41 And I think, the best thing that we can do 01:43 or what I do is just being able to sit in the room 01:46 with the father and just listen to them, 01:49 give them that opportunity to talk about their grief, 01:52 talk about their pain, 01:54 talk about what their struggle is, 01:56 and not trying to fix them, you know, we like to fix. 01:59 But I think this is one thing... 02:01 Grief is something that we can't fix, 02:03 something that we need to be able to just being there. 02:07 I call it ministry of presence, 02:09 you know, I just want to be there 02:11 for the person to help them along the journey. 02:14 That's the one I can offer, 02:17 you know, in this conversation for now. 02:19 Absolutely. Absolutely. 02:21 Being there would be paramount. 02:25 I don't think there's any other work 02:28 or supporting effort that we can give 02:32 that would be more helpful than our presence. 02:38 It's good to let individuals know, 02:41 whether male or female, we're talking about fathers 02:43 but I'm going to be inclusive as well. 02:45 When it comes to grief, hurt, and recovery, I think, 02:49 the hardest thing for an individual 02:51 is the isolation. 02:53 It's this sense of, 02:55 "This is what I'm going through and no one else understands. 02:58 This is what I'm going through 02:59 that no one else has experienced this 03:01 or no one has experienced it the way I have." 03:05 They're right, you know? 03:07 The average person that would say to me, 03:08 "You don't know what I'm feeling." 03:12 No, I don't. 03:13 So it's important to point them too. 03:16 If that is the void, 03:19 this isolation, this loneliness, 03:21 it's important that we point them to Christ. 03:24 Right. And it is for most of us. 03:26 What a lot of people are not aware of 03:28 is that Christ has suffered as them, 03:33 He has suffered as us. 03:35 We say at times, 03:37 and it has almost become cliche in reference, 03:39 we say, "Well, you know, Jesus died for me." 03:42 And it's important to understand 03:43 that Jesus did not just die for us, 03:46 He died as us. 03:48 We go to Isaiah 53 and we take some time of study 03:53 and meditation in Isaiah 53 03:55 and you go through the sufferings of Christ. 03:58 Look also through the Psalms 04:00 and see what it says about the sufferings of Christ, 04:03 and we contrast that to His experience 04:05 and the transfiguration in the garden of Gethsemane 04:08 that He had to bear the sin of the world. 04:13 So it may seem trivial when we say, 04:16 "Yes, He faced every temptation." 04:19 He may not have faced your literal exact experience, 04:24 but He faced the same magnitude of that experience, 04:27 and He had to carry that to the cross. 04:31 All of your brokenness, all of my brokenness, 04:34 it was upon Him, that's what Isaiah 53 says. 04:37 So all of that hurt and pain from whatever it was, 04:42 if it was the result of a rape, 04:44 if it was the result of a relative committing suicide, 04:47 if it was the result of a divorce, 04:50 if it was the result of a loss of a loved one, 04:53 He had to carry that. 04:55 He felt it, He had to take it to the cross. 04:57 And that's why, I guess, my favorite text is that, 05:00 "I will look to the hills from whence cometh my help. 05:03 My help comes from the Lord, which make heaven and earth." 05:06 So anything that we go through, any brokenness 05:10 is that's where we have to look, 05:12 we have to look to Christ 05:15 because He is the one who's going to take this pain, 05:18 He is going to take all of this from us. 05:20 And we're not... 05:21 I'm not going to say 05:23 that we're not going to feel the pain 05:24 'cause you're going to feel the pain, 05:26 you're going to feel it. 05:27 I remember looking at one of my family members 05:31 go through a divorce, young man, two young children, 05:36 and it ripped him apart. 05:40 And as a close family member, as an uncle, 05:43 I'm there just standing in the gap with him. 05:48 Not only did he lose everything, 05:52 and it really tested his relationship with God 05:57 to the point where, you know, he was just going... 06:00 He would go through the emotions 06:02 of what it means to go to church 06:06 and be a Christian. 06:08 But I don't believe Christ was in Him 06:11 because that brokenness 06:13 caused his relationship to be broken, 06:17 and so it just was a spiraling effect. 06:19 So I've seen the pain that... 06:21 I've see the heartache, and so I know it's not easy. 06:25 So ministry just being there, and I was just there for him. 06:28 Be a listening ear, 06:30 just to hear what he has to say. 06:32 And I think, that's critical, you know? 06:34 And I do appreciate what you're saying, 06:37 but if somebody has gone through divorce, 06:38 I could tell you firsthand that 06:41 I wouldn't want to know anything about Jesus. 06:43 Seriously. 06:45 You know, here I am, first year of seminary, 06:49 going through a divorce, you know? 06:52 And I'm thinking back to my worldly days, 06:55 and I had gone through a divorce 06:56 at a very young age. 06:59 So here I am following a perfect being, 07:03 His name is Jesus, and what does He give me? 07:08 Another ripped... 07:10 You know, it's the ripping of... 07:11 That's why it's so critical 07:13 to let God marry you to the right person. 07:16 Not saying those people are bad, 07:17 not saying my ex-wife is bad. 07:19 She's a good person. 07:21 But God had other plans. 07:23 And when the two fleshes rip, it hurts. 07:27 I can tell you firsthand right now. 07:30 I sat in the basement of the house 07:31 that I was renting and I drank. 07:36 Mercy. 07:37 And this is somebody who's been a future pastor, 07:39 being trained in every kind of theology. 07:43 And I drank, I didn't want to, 07:47 but that's the only way I knew how to cure the pain. 07:50 I got through the DivorceCare, 07:53 but it still hurt so bad. 07:57 And I have a child, 08:00 you know, and all these mixed emotions, 08:02 you know, this is because on one hand, 08:04 I go to the church and church says, 08:06 "Oh, that's not supposed to happen. 08:07 God hates divorce." 08:09 "Okay, He does, but it happens. 08:11 What are you going to do about it now 08:12 to help me? 08:14 I'm hurting, 08:15 I want to kill myself, I'm suicidal." 08:17 "But wait, you are a self-professed, 08:19 somebody that's been a pastor." 08:21 "It doesn't mean I'm not human, 08:23 doesn't mean I'm not going to suffer. 08:25 So here I am, going through that." 08:27 And you know what helped? 08:29 Actually, God. 08:31 Three o'clock in the morning, He woke me up. 08:33 Mind you, I had drank every day I could imagine, 08:35 so I wouldn't wake up. 08:37 He woke me up. Hallelujah. 08:39 And that Bible just became clearer that day. 08:43 And it wasn't anything theological, 08:46 it was something that was hard-hitting for me 08:49 to know that restoration was just around the corner. 08:53 And you know what helped? Community. 08:55 Community. 08:57 You know how many of my colleagues in seminary 08:59 came to my house to pray, 09:01 to sit and circle me with prayer and support? 09:04 And ministry of presence is so key, 09:06 so vital, you know, and that hurts. 09:09 You know, it hurts to the point where I refused to love again, 09:14 I refused... 09:16 Now mind you, you know, God is love. 09:18 I refused to want to experience love again. 09:20 I'll experience God's love 09:21 but I don't want to experience relationship love 09:24 'cause all the church is going to tell me 09:25 is "God hates divorce. 09:27 We're going to put you in DivorceCare." 09:29 "No! 09:31 What are you doing to help me? 09:33 Where is, you know, Simon? 09:38 You know, where is Simon? 09:39 Where is Jesus' Simon where he helped, 09:41 you know, even though 09:43 he was forced to carry that cross, 09:44 there was somebody else to carry the cross with Him, 09:47 for Him, you know? 09:48 And when I went to... 09:51 When I started have feelings again for this young lady, 09:56 I told her. 09:57 I said, "My heart is guarded, I have snipers on the roof, 10:01 and I have pit bulls at the gate, 10:03 and I have this barbwire fence with electricity." 10:06 Mercy. "That nobody is getting in." 10:08 And you know what God did? He just laughed at me. 10:11 He said, "Okay." 10:13 And now I've been married for quite some time now 10:15 to a wonderful woman. 10:17 Amen. 10:18 But I would not be able to see that at the time. 10:20 I was unresponsive 10:21 and I was not willing for anybody to talk to me 10:24 about any type of Jesus because I'm hurting and while, 10:29 you know, it's good to talk about Jesus. 10:33 I also see Jesus as somebody 10:35 who was a very humanistic psychologist. 10:41 The woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, 10:44 every single instance in which society went to condemn people, 10:49 He didn't say stop. 10:51 He just says He is with them in the trenches. 10:55 When they're hurting, He is hurting, when... 10:58 That's what I saw about Jesus is the fact 11:00 that He wasn't saying, "I hate divorce, so stop it." 11:04 Well, we should never get divorced realistically 11:07 because that's not the ideal thing, 11:09 it happens and it's happening so much more in our churches. 11:13 So much, so much. 11:16 Jesus says, "You know what, I understand. 11:19 I see it, because the hardness of your hearts, 11:22 this is why it's happening." 11:23 Yeah. 11:24 "So here's what we're going to do." 11:26 And that's one thing 11:27 that I want to understand as fathers, 11:30 how do we 11:32 when somebody is grieving, especially a father, 11:34 a man who was supposed to be big and strong, 11:36 how do we teach our kids to see beyond the exterior persona 11:41 and see the brokenness inside to restore? 11:45 I think we just have to be real to them. 11:48 A lot of times, we don't sit down 11:50 and talk to our kids about our pain, 11:52 we don't talk to them about what we're feeling 11:55 because we're trying to be this whatever macho, 11:59 this don't-cry kind of a person. 12:02 But if we would talk to them about our pain 12:06 and our feelings, and I want to... 12:08 Something you said that really hit me. 12:12 God could have stepped in and stopped your hurt, 12:17 but He allowed you to go through the hurt 12:22 and then when it was right, 12:24 He stepped in and changed. 12:26 He allowed you to go through alcohol, 12:28 all that stuff that you were going through, 12:30 He allowed you to go through. 12:31 Now that's an awesome God. 12:34 Indeed. 12:35 And so when we meet people with brokenness, 12:37 we all would want to get in there, 12:38 "Okay, you need to this or you need to do that." 12:41 No. 12:42 You got to let them go through it 12:44 because when they go through it, 12:45 that's when they know 12:47 that God can take them through it, 12:48 He is going to bring them out of it. 12:50 But we need to... 12:52 We need to be just transparent with our children. 12:56 They're going to get hurt, they're going to feel pain, 12:58 and it's okay. 12:59 I think that's very important. 13:03 Quite often, our children don't get to see 13:08 our potential for vulnerability. 13:10 Right. 13:11 We're afraid to express 13:14 or in any way allow our children to know 13:17 that we have been vulnerable at times in our own lives. 13:22 I pray that someone watching this program here 13:26 can see three pastors as imperfect individuals 13:31 who have struggled in their own life 13:34 in various areas and yet God has chosen to work 13:37 in and through us. 13:39 Yeah. 13:40 And it is such evidence 13:42 of the love of our God, you know? 13:45 Three degrees 13:47 and X amount years of professional experience 13:49 and this, that, and the other, 13:50 and I'm still broken, I'm still not perfect, 13:53 I still hurt, 13:55 I still have situations where I have to cry out. 14:00 And after, in retrospect, 14:03 I look back at one experience or the other. 14:05 Sometimes, I'm embarrassed, 14:07 you know, I look at myself and say, 14:09 "Gosh, you know, what happened to you, man?" 14:11 You know? 14:12 But we all have those experiences 14:15 and we have to let our children know, 14:17 especially our young men know 14:19 that it is okay to be fragile at times, 14:23 it's okay to be hurt, to be hurt is human, right? 14:28 To be hurt only proves that that you are human. 14:33 But nothing is stronger than that presence. 14:36 There is such a statement as when prayer is not enough, 14:40 when prayer is not enough. 14:42 So there are so many things 14:43 that we tend to attempt to pray away. 14:46 Yeah. Yes. 14:47 And you know, we approach the person 14:50 and we lay hands on them 14:51 and we pray and we say, "Behold, be yield," 14:54 which is necessary. 14:56 Yes. 14:57 Even James instructs us to do that, 14:58 but then we still have... 15:00 We need to remain, we need to remain, 15:02 and we need to be present, 15:04 and we need to let that person know, 15:06 "Listen, I'm here for you." 15:08 Not to be Eliab 15:11 or can't remember the other two, 15:13 Job's friends, you know? 15:15 Yeah. You don't have to be like that. 15:16 But you don't have to be there to bombard them with advice 15:20 and psychology and all this kind of stuff, 15:23 just being a brother and being there. 15:25 A member that experienced the loss of a son, 15:31 and it was a traumatic loss. 15:35 Up to now, that member can't pull themselves together, 15:40 and they believe in prayer, they believe in that power. 15:43 But for some reason, 15:44 they can't pull themselves out of it. 15:48 They have to go through it. 15:50 And so we can't just try to fix things. 15:54 Exactly. 15:56 The fact of the matter is that all of us are broken. 15:59 And so in my brokenness and in your brokenness 16:02 and in your brokenness, 16:04 we all are going through at a different level 16:06 of different experiences, 16:10 but the one thing I want to recommend 16:12 and suggest as men, fathers, with our children, 16:16 being able to come together like this 16:18 and talk about their brokenness. 16:20 Talk about what you're going through, 16:22 talk about what the experience is. 16:24 In that way, we can learn to embrace 16:27 and connect with each other 16:29 and gain strength from each other. 16:31 The problem with us is that we live in isolation. 16:35 We take all of our burdens and all of our brokenness, 16:39 and we tell, "You know what, 16:40 I'm going to hold on to this as some kind of a pet, 16:44 child, or whatever, pet animal." 16:46 But we need to be able to sit in community 16:48 and talk about it and teach our young men 16:50 to do the same thing 16:52 because they will perpetuate the same things 16:54 that we are dealing with, 16:56 they're going to just keep on continuing the cycle. 16:58 That's a continuous cycle. 17:00 And I believe in going back to the basics. 17:02 You know, for me, 17:03 when I re-read again the story of Jesus, 17:09 I was blown away 'cause I'm like, 17:11 "So here is the Son of God coming from a blended family." 17:17 You know, to me, I had to re-read it again 17:20 because, you know, now I'm married 17:23 and we're a blended family, 17:25 and that's supposed to be statistically wrong, 17:29 like you're supposed to fail. 17:31 We even had particular people of high esteem 17:35 that told me to my face, 17:38 "Xavier, we are going to pray that your marriage fails." 17:40 Mercy. 17:42 I had to learn what turn the other cheek 17:45 meant at that point 'cause I was livid. 17:48 I said, "Okay, okay." 17:51 But we see Jesus coming into a world 17:55 that's a mess, that's broken, being a... 17:58 And a young girl, being born from a young girl, 18:03 and a man who now is about to get married to this girl, 18:06 said, "Wait a minute. 18:07 Are you pregnant? How did this happen?" 18:10 You know... 18:12 Obviously, the angels reveal and God reveals Himself 18:15 and told them what the plan was, 18:18 but that same circumstance happens today. 18:22 You know, restoration for me came 18:23 when I understood that here is Joseph, 18:27 he doesn't have to pay any child support. 18:30 Okay, fine, great, 18:31 but he has the responsibility of raising a son 18:34 that's not his 18:35 and a son that is the Son of God, 18:38 you know? 18:39 And what I drew from that is the fact that our churches, 18:43 we need to do more, beyond DivorceCare. 18:44 Absolutely. 18:47 Really come in and counsel these men 18:51 who are now thinking potentially to get remarried 18:55 and educate them through God's Word, 18:57 not through our personal feelings 18:59 and emotions, 19:00 even though we have experiences but through God's Word 19:02 as to what this restoration looks like 19:05 and what it's going to look like down the road. 19:06 I don't know. What do you think? 19:08 I wanted to speak to the element of faith 19:13 and faith's role in recovery, 19:16 faith's role in loss. 19:20 You talked about redeeming. 19:22 We have a culture where I think 19:25 we inappropriately 19:29 address a measure of faith or a lack thereof, 19:33 you know, it sounds when we're praising people 19:36 for a success that they have had 19:38 absolutely nothing to do with. 19:39 Listen, let me be plain, 19:41 even within our culture of pastoral work 19:43 and the call, I hear people wax eloquent all the time, man, 19:47 about all this, that, and that, that, the other, 19:49 "And it wasn't because of that... 19:50 the last minute, you know, this happened 19:53 and this happened because..." 19:55 We don't know, you know, we really don't know. 19:58 But someone who is hurting, 20:03 they're not hurting because they lack faith. 20:06 Someone who has been through a loss 20:10 and is unable to cope with the loss, 20:13 they're not necessarily hurting or unable to cope 20:17 because they lack faith. 20:20 2001, which was about my second year in seminary, 20:25 packed up the truck, left Florida, sold home, 20:28 you know, all this kind of stuff. 20:30 Get here and I'm making this commitment 20:32 towards ministry, 20:34 my wife becomes pregnant with our second child. 20:39 She has a high-risk pregnancy, wife is hospitalized, 20:43 we try our best with all the different medical, 20:45 you know, practice and all of that 20:47 to get her to where she needs to be at gestation 20:50 until it's time that they said, 20:51 "Okay, we have to deliver the child now." 20:54 And that was just I think a little past six months. 20:57 And so daughter was born, 20:59 daughter was fine in physical appearance, 21:03 arms, legs, 10 fingers, 10 toes, eyes, and all of that, 21:06 fully functional as a child, 21:08 but she was yet born with lungs that were not fully developed. 21:13 And so after they delivered my daughter, our daughter, 21:17 and they placed my daughter in my arms and wrapped her, 21:22 I knew she wasn't going to live, 21:23 you know, they told me that. 21:25 And I told the nurse, "No." 21:27 When the nurse came to me and said, "Here's your child. 21:30 You know, we need you to spend some time with her." 21:32 "No, that's all right. 21:34 You know, no, that's okay." 21:37 And the nurse encouraged me 21:38 and encouraged me until I did 21:40 and I held my daughter for close to an hour. 21:42 Nurse told me, "Put your thumb right here by her heart, 21:46 and when you stop feeling that, you call us and let us know." 21:51 And just put me in a corner by myself in a rocking chair. 21:54 Let me tell you, when I felt my daughter's heart 21:56 finally stopped beating, 21:58 I started to pray and asked God to resurrect my child. 22:04 And let me tell you, it wasn't for a lack of faith 22:07 in what God can do, 22:08 I believed 100% that God would restore my child's heartbeat, 22:14 place breath back in her lungs and that she would live. 22:17 She didn't, I ended up burying that child. 22:20 But we need to understand, as I said, 22:24 stop labeling people and attaching measures F words 22:28 and faith and believe and all that, God is God. 22:31 Yes. 22:32 And we need to accept what God allows, 22:35 and we need to allow God to be God. 22:37 There will be a day when we will understand. 22:40 The unanswered why, the inexplicable how, 22:43 the ambiguous so what, and all the of this stuff 22:47 will be remedied in eternity, you know? 22:49 So I want to speak specifically to the person 22:52 that's going through that kind of loss, 22:55 that kind of struggle, that kind of hurt, 22:58 wherein is the lack of closure 23:00 that's persecuting you, it's okay, it's okay. 23:04 Let it go, let God be God. 23:08 And let us all look forward to that. 23:10 I'm looking forward to it, you're looking... 23:12 I know you are. Amen. 23:14 You know, where everything will be made right 23:18 and we'll understand 23:19 why God allowed whatever it is 23:22 that He allowed to happen. 23:24 There are many times I'm called by a member 23:26 for counseling one area 23:27 or the other relative to loss, I'm speechless. 23:32 Yeah. 23:33 What do I say to a mother 23:35 who has just lost her 16-year old child 23:38 before he's even really experience, 23:40 you know, life in this world. 23:43 I had one, not so very long ago, 23:47 was lost by an auto accident, simple auto accident. 23:50 You know, it could be any of our children, you know? 23:54 We lose children, we lose spouses, 23:55 we lose parents. 23:57 But the church, and especially us as men, 24:00 we need to be real. 24:02 Yes. We need to be real. 24:03 Yes. 24:05 Don't hide behind doctrines and cultures of doctrines 24:09 and who's got faith and who doesn't have faith. 24:13 Jesus Himself say 24:15 while He was there in the garden 24:16 bearing your sin and mine and it was crushing Him, 24:18 "Father, if it be possible..." 24:21 Why did he ask that? 24:23 Why did he ask God for an option? 24:26 Mercy. 24:27 Because he didn't want to see you with the pain. 24:29 Pain was... 24:30 It was excruciating. Yeah. His blood. 24:33 So if our Savior can express that level of vulnerability, 24:39 that level of humanness, 24:42 what about you? What about me? 24:44 And I was looking at a mother, 24:47 sitting on the porch with her son, 24:51 they're just sitting there having a good time. 24:53 Someone drive by, bang, shots rang out. 24:56 She escaped, but her son lying there, dead. 25:01 And then here I am, 25:02 what am I going to say to that mother? 25:04 What can I say to that mother? 25:06 I can just look, I can just be there, 25:08 you know, because again, 25:10 we are living in a broken society 25:12 and because we're broken, 25:14 because sin has made this world so broken, 25:17 we just need to be there to be a support and be real, 25:21 just be real with the support that we give. 25:23 And I think, that's critical 25:24 because no matter what kind of loss you've experienced, 25:27 you know, a loss is a loss. 25:30 Grief is something 25:33 that we were never meant to experience, 25:34 you know, as working in an hospice for a while, 25:38 that's something that I had to make sense of 25:40 for people that I counseled. 25:42 I don't even understand it. 25:45 But grief is something that is beyond us. 25:47 Yes. 25:49 Yet God, in His infinite mercy 25:51 and grace finds a way to help us understand 25:55 little by little, maybe not everything, 25:57 but little by little why certain things happened. 26:01 And grief is just something that unfortunately, 26:04 we're going to have to deal with 26:05 until He comes back again. 26:08 I don't know... 26:10 Anything else that you would like to add? 26:11 Oh, yeah. 26:13 Yeah, definitely, on the practical side. 26:15 We are not magicians, some of us are gifted 26:19 or fortunate enough to have multiple skills, 26:23 but we don't have everything. 26:25 Every pastor should be skilled in the ability to refer. 26:29 Yes. 26:31 Know your resource population, know your resource population. 26:36 And so you may not be a psychologist 26:40 or you may not be a licensed social worker 26:44 or a counselor who say that you can deal with... 26:47 Every, you know, nuance of mental health need, 26:51 but at least know the resources of your community 26:55 so that when a member comes to you 26:58 or maybe does not come to you 27:00 but you observe, 27:02 then be able to either meet that person 27:05 where they are and say to them, 27:07 you know, "This is where you can get help." 27:10 I appreciate everything you guys have shared, 27:12 and it's such a deep topic 27:16 for the people, for the fathers, 27:20 for everyone who is watching. 27:22 Grief as a father, 27:24 whether you've gone through the loss of a marriage, 27:27 loss of a spouse, any type of loss, 27:29 you're a man, 27:31 you're not God, you're not perfect. 27:34 It's okay to cry and sharing the brokenness. 27:38 As pastors, that are out there watching, 27:40 create an environment of sharing 27:43 with your brothers and sisters, 27:44 specifically with the men in the church, 27:47 showing that even Jesus wept and Jesus bore our sins 27:51 so that we can have this community of believers 27:54 in which we can share our grief. 27:57 And, fathers, don't be afraid to show your kids you can cry. 28:00 Thank you for watching. |
Revised 2020-12-02