Participants: Doug Batchelor
Series Code: AOT
Program Code: AOT000040
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00:27 This is what we call an "Anchors Away" program
00:31 where we are away from 3ABN. 00:34 We are out in the field, and this time we are at the 00:37 Central Seventh-day Adventist Church in Sacramento, 00:40 California. This is the church that 00:43 Pastor Doug Batchelor is pastor, senior pastor, of. 00:48 And it's just been a tremendous week that we've been here 00:52 since Wednesday, and we've en- joyed every single minute of it. 00:56 You folks have really made us feel at home. 00:59 Want to thank you. Want to thank the production crew here... 01:03 volunteers in the church that really do a tremendous job. 01:08 And we just thank them for their cooperation as well. 01:12 We're looking forward to this afternoon's subject. 01:16 Pastor Doug Batchelor is going to be speaking again on 01:19 Truths That Divide. 01:22 You know, there are some things that actually do divide 01:26 rather than unite, and we are divided in Christianity 01:30 on a number of questions. 01:33 And this afternoon we're going to be looking at one more 01:38 of those questions. 01:40 Why don't we have a little prayer together right now? 01:43 Father in heaven, 01:44 we thank you for Jesus. 01:46 We thank you, Lord, that He was willing to come 01:51 and to live and to die 01:54 and to come forth from the tomb. 01:57 To go back to heaven to minister in the sanctuary. 02:02 And all of this to bring about life for each one of us. 02:07 We pray, Father, that You will help every single person 02:11 that's watching today to make sure that they've accepted Him 02:16 as their Savior 02:18 and to receive the gift of life eternal. 02:22 We thank you for hearing us in Jesus' name, Amen. 02:27 Well Pastor Doug, this is the fifth in this series, 02:32 and we have been just thrilled to be with you. 02:36 Tell me a little about what is the subject this afternoon. 02:40 Well we're going to be dealing with something that is a very 02:43 controversial subject: talking about the afterlife. 02:47 All right. In particular, death, the subject of hell, 02:52 and then we thought we'd end on a positive note 02:54 and talk about heaven. All right! 02:56 You're going to cover all of that in one... one lecture, huh? 03:01 Yeah. Well, not going to be covered thoroughly but 03:04 we're going to cover as much as we can. 03:05 You and Pastor Barney? Pastor Barney is our guest 03:09 tonight, yes. All right. 03:10 Well, I'm going to get out of your way so you have all 03:12 the time - thank you so much - that you can use. 03:15 All right... God bless you. God bless you. 03:17 Thank you sir. And again we want to thank 3ABN 03:19 for partnering with us in this program. Amen? 03:22 Amen. And I want to tell our friends at home if you are 03:24 grateful that we're able to put together programs like this 03:28 both 3ABN and Amazing Facts are entirely self-supporting 03:31 ministries. And if you'd like to make a donation to help them 03:34 keep providing Christian programming 03:37 you can go to the website that you'll see on your screen there. 03:39 It's very easy to remember. 03:41 Just like our names - 3ABN.org AmazingFacts. org - 03:47 and you can just follow the links there. 03:49 Again welcome to the Doctrines that Divide program. 03:54 And in this evening's presentation we're going to be 03:57 talking about a few doctrinal truths that are... 04:01 are a little controversial. 04:03 Now in this series we are talking about 04:08 some of the beliefs of Seventh- day Adventist Christians. 04:11 It says Christians, Adventist there. 04:13 And then it says Other Christians. 04:16 And again, there are a lot of other dear Christian people 04:20 Seventh-day Adventists believe in other churches. 04:23 We freely agree the majority of Christ's true followers 04:28 are in the fellowship of other churches. 04:30 The Seventh-day Adventist church does not view itself as 04:34 a denomination. We view ourselves as a movement 04:37 of prophecy into which people are called 04:41 from all different walks of life. 04:43 Indeed, the Seventh-day Adventist church was formed 04:46 as a coalescing of people from several denominations 04:50 that came together and said: 04:52 "let's return to Biblical truth. " 04:55 And so that's my appeal to you during this series. 04:59 I believe before Jesus comes back 05:01 He's going to have a people united in the Word. 05:04 His church is going to truly be of one accord. 05:08 And so we're talking about some of these distinctive 05:11 doctrinal differences. 05:12 And in some ways tonight's subject is going to be 05:16 more difficult for some people than others we've presented. 05:20 Some people shrug when you talk about the Seventh-day Adventist 05:24 view on the dietary things. 05:27 They say: "Well you know that's good for health. 05:28 There's a lot of science behind it. " 05:30 And when we talk about the sanctuary and the cleansing 05:34 they say: "Well you know, that's also very interesting. " 05:37 Sabbath? "Well, we all need a day of rest. " 05:40 But when you start talking about what happens when a person dies 05:45 people really get very animated about that. 05:49 And so we're going to be talking tonight about those subjects 05:52 of death, hell, and then we'll be talking a little bit 05:56 about heaven. 05:57 And so once again, if you haven't heard me explain this 06:00 before, I am wearing this special suit or this uniform 06:03 and the purpose of this is to help you visualize. 06:08 When I'm on this side, I'm representing Pastor Doug. 06:12 And when I'm on this side I'm representing a figment of my 06:16 imagination. We are calling him Pastor Barney. 06:19 And I guess that I should give you more of a silhouette here 06:22 'cause Pastor Barney's kind of in the white suit 06:24 and Pastor Doug is over here in the black suit. 06:27 I'm going to be arguing from this side what I believe 06:30 the Biblical positions are on these subjects 06:32 as a Seventh-day Adventist. I am biased. 06:35 And on this side I'll be sharing with you what I believed 06:38 back before I was a Seventh-day Adventist... 06:41 worshiping and preaching in churches in the other 06:45 evangelical churches. 06:46 And so with that maybe I should introduce the first point 06:52 in our study talking about the subject of death in particular. 06:57 Now if you go to a church cemetery... 07:00 I remember when I lived in Texas 07:03 and there's a lot of churches there that are Church of Christ, 07:08 Baptist, Methodist churches. 07:11 Every little town used to have a church 'cause they were all 07:14 little farming communities. 07:16 Unfortunately in the last 60-70 years 07:19 people have migrated to the cities. 07:21 A lot of these little churches have closed. 07:23 And sometimes on a Sabbath afternoon I'd go for a walk 07:27 with the family in some of these church cemeteries 07:29 and just read the tombstones. 07:31 And it was interesting that within the same Methodist 07:37 or Baptist or Church of Christ cemetery 07:39 you would immediately detect there was confusion on the 07:42 subject of death. 07:44 You'd see one tombstone and it would say for example: 07:48 "Our beloved father, now resting in Jesus, 07:54 waiting for the resurrection trump" 07:57 or something like that. 07:58 Then you'd go look at another tombstone. It would say: 08:02 "Our dear mother, now walking on the golden streets 08:06 in glory. " 08:08 And you're wondering... where are they? 08:10 They weren't too sure. 08:13 A lot of them said RIP. What does that stand for? 08:16 Rest in peace. 08:18 And, you know, so sometimes you think that means 08:20 they're resting in peace. 08:22 Others would have beautiful poems about 08:25 "now in the arms of Jesus. " 08:27 And there's just a lot of confusion about this subject 08:30 of death. And so with that quick introduction 08:34 we're going to get into our first question for tonight's 08:37 presentation. 08:38 Number one: 08:44 All right, we're going to let Pastor Doug start out 08:46 with some of these scriptures. 08:48 Now this represents pretty much the Adventist position. 08:51 Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5 and 6: 09:10 When they're dead they're not envying; they're not loving; 09:13 they're not hating... they're asleep. 09:16 Ecclesiastes 9 verse 10... you just jump down to the 10th verse 09:19 same chapter: "Whatever your hand finds to do 09:22 do it with your might. For there is no work or device 09:27 or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you're going. " 09:30 People in the grave have no knowledge. They have no wisdom. 09:34 And you would think the first thing a person would do 09:37 if you die and you go immediately to be with Jesus 09:41 I'd be praising the Lord, wouldn't you? 09:43 But here's what King David said in Psalm 115: 09:47 "The dead do not praise the Lord 09:50 nor any who go down into silence. " 09:52 Pastor Doug, I've just got to interrupt you right there. 09:55 You're reading from the Old Testament. 09:59 It wasn't until the resurrection of Jesus that He liberated 10:02 all the souls that were in their graves. 10:04 After the resurrection of Jesus they went on to glory 10:08 to be with Christ. 10:09 But Pastor Barney, I know I just read from King David, 10:13 but when you go to Acts chapter 2 10:15 and Peter is preaching his sermon on Pentecost 10:17 he said: "My brethren, let me freely speak about 10:21 the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried... " 10:25 A few verses later... "and not ascended to heaven. " 10:29 So even after the resurrection, Pentecost happens 10:33 50 days after the Passover 10:36 and David still hasn't made it to heaven yet. 10:39 Peter said that he's "dead and buried and not ascended 10:42 into heaven. " But I still have a verse or two to read on that. 10:46 John 11 verse 11: 10:57 And so in the Bible it speaks of death as a sleep. 11:01 This is a dreamless sleep and it's unconscious. 11:04 Again, you can read Psalm 146. 11:08 Says: "Put not your trust in princes or in the son of man 11:11 in whom there is no help. In the day that he dies 11:13 his breath goes forth and his thoughts perish. " 11:17 So people who are dead are not plotting vengeance on you. 11:21 They're not thinking anything... they're dead. 11:23 What do you think, Pastor Barney? 11:25 Well I do have some thoughts. I've got some scriptures too. 11:28 II Corinthians 5:8. 11:38 As a matter of fact, in that same chapter several times 11:41 it talks about being absent from the body 11:43 and being present with the Lord. 11:48 I have a thought on that 11:49 before you go to your next verse. 11:51 Probably ought to explain that. 11:53 I agree with you that to be absent from this life 11:57 your next conscious thought is the presence of the Lord. 12:01 See because we believe that if you're a Christian 12:04 and you die, the next thing that you think of 12:07 is the resurrection. You have no knowledge at all, 12:10 not even like a restless sleep. 12:12 It's like a person who has been dead for 500 years 12:17 it's not going to seem like 500 years for them. 12:19 Or if you go to sleep after a hard day's work 12:21 and then the alarm clock goes off seven hours later 12:24 but how long does it feel to you? 12:27 I heard one time about a man during World War I 12:30 who was on the battlefield. He was directing artillery 12:33 and in the midst of a very hot battle 12:37 he was ready to give the order to fire. 12:40 He said: "Ready, Aim... " And then a mortar shell 12:43 exploded very close to him. 12:45 Well, he was taken to the local field hospital. 12:49 They realized that he had a piece of shrapnel in his head 12:52 and it was very serious. 12:53 They waited to operate until they could get him to France. 12:56 They took him to France, and in a hospital there in Paris 12:59 they performed the surgery. 13:01 And when they removed the shrapnel - he was unconscious 13:04 so they didn't use any anesthetic - 13:05 when they removed the shrapnel from his brain 13:08 he jumped and said: "Fire! " 13:12 It had basically just stopped the tape for him. 13:15 I don't know how that worked, 13:17 but his next conscious thought was - even though it was a few 13:20 days after accident - he just picked up where he left off. 13:24 And so we believe to be absent from the body 13:27 the next conscious thought for the believer is the presence 13:30 of the Lord. And keep in mind: 13:32 God lives in all dimensions of time. 13:36 In other words, God is from everlasting to everlasting. 13:40 And that means that God can take a prophet a million years 13:44 backwards in time and show him a war in heaven. 13:47 Not that it was a million years ago. 13:49 God can take a prophet a thousand years ahead 13:52 in the future and give him a three-dimensional picture 13:55 of that. And so, you know, God doesn't live in the same 14:00 dimension of time. So if you're a believer 14:02 and you die - or an unbeliever - your next conscious thought 14:05 is the resurrection of the just or the unjust. 14:09 Carry on. 14:10 Well thank you very much for that explanation. 14:13 I do have another verse or two here. 14:18 It says in Matthew 22 verse 32 14:32 And so these people aren't dead, they're living. 14:35 They're with Jesus. 14:38 Well, I agree that they are living. 14:40 When a person is asleep are they dead or alive? 14:44 Well yeah, they're... technically they're alive. 14:47 Well I agree. I think when a person dies in the Lord 14:51 they're just sleeping. Jesus said: "Our friend Lazarus 14:53 is asleep. " And just think about that for a second, 14:56 friends. And this by the way is in John chapter 11... 14:59 the whole story there. 15:00 How long had Lazarus been dead? 15:04 Four days 15:06 by the time that Jesus came to resurrect him. 15:08 There are about 12 resurrections in the Bible. 15:13 And I don't know what you think it would have been like 15:16 back then, but I know today 15:18 that if someone had been dead for four days 15:20 and they were raised, the next thing that would happen 15:24 is every media agency in the world would show up. 15:27 They would have a whole bouquet of microphones 15:30 in front of them, and the first question they would ask is: 15:33 "What was it like when you were dead? " 15:36 The amazing thing about all the resurrections that are 15:39 performed in the Bible there is not one person 15:42 who comments on what they saw or experienced 15:45 during their death... which leads me to believe 15:47 maybe they didn't experience anything. 15:50 And if Lazarus was dead for four days... 15:54 think about that. 15:56 Let's suppose for a moment Lazarus was lost 15:58 and when he died his next conscious thought was 16:01 he was in Hades. 16:02 And then Jesus raised him. 16:04 You would think that Lazarus would say something like: 16:07 "Thank you, Lord. It was terribly uncomfortable. 16:09 The pain was excruciating. I'm so glad to be back. " 16:12 No comment. If Lazarus - you'd think after 16:16 four days that the shuttle would finally arrive in heaven - 16:18 if Lazarus had been in heaven 16:20 and here he is with his glorified body and he's 16:23 talking to the angels and he's walking and dancing 16:26 and flying around the golden city and the golden streets 16:29 and reaching out for the Tree of Life... and all of a sudden 16:33 he finds himself back in a tomb wrapped up in grave clothes. 16:36 Would you say: "Thank you, Jesus" for that? 16:40 No. Lazarus makes absolutely no comment about the 16:44 resurrection because he was asleep. 16:47 And that's not my opinion or my interpretation. 16:50 Jesus said: "Our friend Lazarus is asleep. " 16:54 And when they said: "Oh, if he's sick and he's asleep 16:56 that's good. He'll start feeling better. " 16:57 Jesus said: "No, he's dead. " 17:00 So sleep is a word that God uses to describe death. 17:04 This is not something Seventh-day Adventists 17:05 have manufactured. 17:07 All right. Well, let's go back to another point here 17:11 on the same subject. 17:21 Pastor Barney, would you like to start? 17:23 Thank you Pastor Doug. 17:24 I'm glad we can be cordial with each other. 17:26 Luke 23 verse 43 17:35 That means Jesus promised that thief right that day 17:39 that they would be together in paradise. 17:42 That doesn't mean that he had to wait for the resurrection 17:45 or he had to wait for the judgment day. 17:46 Jesus said: "Today... today, you'll be with Me 17:50 in paradise. " What do you think of that? 17:53 Well that is a good point. 17:55 Now this is sometimes difficult to explain to people 17:58 because you have to tell them there is an error 18:02 in the translation. Not in the Bible. 18:05 In the original Bible there is no punctuation. 18:09 Bible translators... and by the way, 18:12 anyone can translate a Bible... 18:13 You don't have to be inspired to translate a Bible. 18:16 You're taking it from one language and putting it 18:18 in another language. 18:19 And some translations are more inspired than others 18:22 in my opinion. 18:24 But they had to decide "where do we put the comma? " 18:27 And in the King James and most English translations 18:30 the way they did it - and it was done back because they were 18:34 supporting the popular belief you die and go right to heaven 18:36 or hell - they wrote it: "Verily I say to you, " 18:40 today you'll be with Me in paradise. " 18:44 But one reason that's a big problem is 18:47 if you read in John chapter 20 verse 17 18:50 it's not possible for the thief to be with Jesus in paradise 18:54 that same day 'cause Jesus didn't make it to paradise 18:57 that day. When Mary went to grab Him by the feet 19:00 and to worship Him He said: 19:02 "Do not detain Me... do not touch Me... " 19:08 Now when was it that Mary showed up at the tomb 19:11 and He told her that? That would be Sunday morning. 19:15 So if Jesus hadn't made it to heaven yet Sunday morning, 19:19 then how could He have been with the thief in paradise 19:23 Sunday morning? 19:26 Pardon... I meant the same day. 19:28 I meant the same day. 19:32 Well that's because there's another place 19:36 called paradise that is not heaven 19:39 but he was with Jesus wherever that place is. 19:42 Ah, Revelation says that 19:44 His Father is in heaven and that is paradise. 19:48 So He had not yet ascended to His Father 19:50 and the Father's in paradise, 19:51 Christ had not yet been to heaven or paradise. 19:54 Jesus was in the tomb. Penalty for sin is death. 19:57 Penalty for sin is not some kind of trans-spiritual migration. 20:01 The thief could not be with Him that day. 20:03 And there's another reason to doubt the thief could be 20:05 with Him that day: it's simply because 20:08 we're not even sure the thief died that day. 20:11 He was still alive after Jesus died, and they tried 20:14 to accelerate their death by breaking their legs 20:16 but the Bible doesn't record how long that took. 20:19 They were hoping that they'd die before the Sabbath. 20:21 You remember? And so it doesn't say. 20:24 We don't even know when he died. 20:25 But the way to really look at that... 20:29 just take the comma. Put it where it belongs. 20:32 "Verily I say to you today, " 20:34 The emphasis Jesus is making is 20:37 "I'm telling you today. You called me a Lord, 20:41 you called me a King... " And by the way, 20:43 you notice Pastor Barney, the thief said to Jesus: 20:47 "When You come into Your kingdom remember me. " 20:50 Jesus was promising him that day 20:52 "I will remember you when I come into My kingdom. " 20:55 He didn't go to His kingdom that day. 20:56 The Bible says that He receives His kingdom 20:59 when He comes back for us. 21:01 So He was emphasizing: "Today I don't look like a king. " 21:07 He was hanging on a cross. 21:08 "Today I don't look like a Lord. " 21:10 "Today I don't look like I can save anybody, 21:13 but I'll make it a promise to you today because you 21:15 reached out to Me in faith 21:18 that you will be with Me in paradise. 21:20 I'm promising you today you will be with Me in paradise. " 21:24 That's what Jesus was saying. 21:26 The original Greek supports that. 21:28 There was no punctuation when Luke wrote that. 21:31 It's only in the gospel of Luke. Do not build a whole doctrine 21:35 on somebody's placing a comma who is not necessarily 21:38 inspired or holy. 21:40 And I think that's actually a beautiful explanation 21:44 for that passage. 21:46 All right. Let's move along here. 21:50 Number three: 21:56 Pastor Barney? 21:57 Ecclesiastes 12 verse 7. 22:00 Good enough for me. 22:08 So as soon as a person dies the spirit goes to be with God. 22:13 Well, we need to talk about what these words mean. 22:16 First of all, to understand what that spirit is 22:20 and where it goes we need to know something about 22:22 how God makes men in the beginning. 22:23 In Genesis chapter 2 verse 7 22:26 when God first created man it says: 22:39 So the combination of that breath of life 22:42 and the body that the Lord had just framed of Adam 22:46 then equaled a living soul. 22:50 The word for spirit there is the same word as breath. 22:54 It's the Hebrew word ruach and it means 22:57 breath... the breath of life. It's inanimate; it doesn't have 23:00 personality. It is the power, the force, that God breathes 23:03 into all of His creatures. 23:05 And so the verse that you just read in Ecclesiastes 23:08 is saying that when somebody dies... You notice 23:11 Ecclesiastes doesn't say good or bad? 23:15 That the body decomposes and turns back into the dust 23:19 of the earth. God said to Adam: "Dust you are and to dust 23:22 you're going to return. " 23:23 The spirit or the breath of life - the power of life, 23:26 the essence of life - returns to God who gave it. 23:30 If we should unplug the power in this building 23:33 and all the lights go out - don't try that right now - 23:37 you'd say: "Where'd the light go? " 23:39 Well, the light stops being light for us when 23:42 you disconnect the carbon filaments with the electricity. 23:46 It's the two together that produce the light. 23:49 If I should take some sticks of wood and some nails 23:53 and put them together and make a chair and I'd say: 23:56 "Here, the combination of those nails and those sticks 23:58 we've made a chair. " 24:00 But now I separate the nails... Don't try and sit on the chair! 24:04 I separate the nails from the wood and I've got a pile 24:07 of sticks here and a pile of nails here 24:09 and I ask you: "Where is the chair? " 24:11 Well it stopped being a chair when you separate the two. 24:15 The breath of life and the elements of earth 24:19 God animates it into a living soul. 24:22 When a man, good or bad... when an animal, good or bad... 24:26 dies, the elements of earth decompose back into the dust. 24:30 The power of life - the breath of life - returns to God 24:33 who gave it. Let me give you another verse on that. 24:36 Job 27 verse 3. 24:39 "All the while my breath is in me 24:43 and the spirit of God is in my nostrils. " 24:47 Now you've heard people say 24:49 "He's got the spirit in his mind. " 24:52 "He's got the spirit in his heart. " 24:53 But if I were to ask you "would you like to be 24:56 spirit nose filled? " 25:00 Who ever thinks of your spirit of God? 25:03 "Lord, please fill our noses. " 25:04 Why does it say "The spirit of God was in my nostrils? " 25:10 The word "spirit of God" there means the breath of life 25:13 was in my nostrils. " That is the exact word 25:16 that's being used there in Ecclesiastes 12 verse 7. 25:20 All right. So... before I go to the next point... 25:26 Seventh-day Adventists believe that when a person dies 25:30 they sleep in the grave 25:33 until the judgment and the resurrection. 25:36 Jesus said rewards are not given 25:39 until He comes. Matthew 25: "When the Son of Man 25:43 comes in the glory of the Father with all His angels 25:46 He will gather all nations before Him and separate them 25:49 as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. " 25:52 When He comes, He then distributes rewards. 25:55 He doesn't distribute rewards at death 25:58 before the resurrection and before the judgment. 26:01 This is actually not a new belief. 26:03 Seventh-day Adventists don't own it. 26:05 It's a very old belief that has been influenced lately 26:08 in the last couple hundred years by traditions. 26:11 All right. Number four: 26:18 Pastor Barney? 26:21 Matthew chapter 10 verse 28. Jesus said: 26:33 The soul cannot be killed. 26:35 You've got immortal souls that go on forever and ever. 26:40 Well I'm going to stop Pastor Barney. 26:42 Sometimes I get so caught up in what he's saying 26:43 I think I don't want to convince anybody so I'd better get back 26:45 over here. Just trying to give, you know, the other view. 26:50 You've got to read the rest of the verse, pastor. 26:52 Jesus said: "Don't fear those who kill the body 26:55 but they cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him" - 26:59 Matthew 10:28... second half of that verse... 27:10 So that's I think pretty clear. 27:13 As a matter of fact, you only find the word mortal 27:16 or immortality twice in the Bible. 27:19 Both times it's talking about God and talking about 27:22 immortality. It's only listed twice in the Bible 27:26 and you're going to find where it says Matthew... 27:28 I'm sorry. In I Timothy 6 verses 15 and 16. 27:33 I Timothy 6:15-16: 27:51 God alone has immortality. 27:53 And let me give you one more. This is a short one: 27:55 Ezekiel 18:20: 27:57 The idea that you've got an immortal soul that can't die... 28:01 If this isn't as clear as any dictionary definition 28:03 then I don't know what is: 28:05 The Bible says... the Lord says 28:07 "the soul that sins will die. " 28:11 And that takes us right back to what Jesus said 28:13 in John 3:16. 28:15 "God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son 28:19 that whosoever believes in Him 28:21 should not... " you've got two choices... 28:23 "perish but have everlasting life. " 28:27 We've only got two choices: perish... everlasting life. 28:31 As a matter of fact, the first thing that the... 28:33 the first lie that was ever told in the universe 28:35 was the devil when he told Eve 28:38 "God said you disobey, you eat the forbidden fruit 28:40 you'll die. " What did the devil say? 28:42 "You won't really die. " 28:45 And the sad thing is that some churches have taken up 28:48 the refrain of the devil telling people that you are 28:51 immortal. You're going to live forever and ever in heaven 28:53 or you're going to live forever and ever in hell. 28:55 I do believe in everlasting separation from God. 28:59 But everlasting punishment... 29:01 that's another subject we're about to get to. 29:03 You know, there's so much more I'd like to say on this 29:05 and I know I don't have time. 29:07 So what we're doing is we're going to put a website up. 29:09 It's very simple: www. deathtruth. com 29:14 www. deathtruth. com 29:15 Even if you type in truth about death you'll find the same 29:18 website. A lot of people asking questions about that... 29:21 especially just before Halloween. 29:23 www. deathtruth. com, and you'll find more information there. 29:28 All right. Well then, let's talk about the subject of hell. 29:33 Question number five: 29:37 Do lost souls burn forever? 29:41 All right, Pastor Barney. 29:43 To me these scriptures are really powerful, Pastor Doug. 29:47 Matthew 18. I'm going to read two that are similar. 29:50 I'll be reading Matthew 18 and Mark 9. 29:52 Matthew 18:8: "If your hand or foot causes you to sin... " 30:09 Mark 9:43-44: 30:28 Tell you what, I'll let you address that before I go 30:30 to my next point. 30:32 OK. Well, I believe that it is true that the fire 30:38 there in hell cannot be quenched. 30:40 The word quench is a verb that means to extinguish. 30:43 By the way, there's a myth out there 30:45 that Seventh-day Adventists do not believe in hell fire. 30:48 I've heard people say that; I've heard preachers say it. 30:50 That is categorically not true. 30:52 We do believe in hell fire. 30:55 We do believe there's a lake of fire. 30:57 We do believe that the wicked are all rewarded according to 31:00 what they deserve. We believe what it says there in Malachi 31:04 chapter 4: "Behold the day comes that will burn as an oven 31:08 and all the proud and all that do wickedly shall be stubble. 31:12 The day that comes shall burn them up. " 31:14 But then you've got to keep reading. 31:16 "It will leave them neither root nor branch. " 31:20 Says the wicked will be ashes under the soles of the feet 31:24 of the righteous. Burn up root, burn up branch... 31:28 there's nothing left. When hell fire is burning 31:31 nobody is quenching it. There are no firemen in hell 31:35 trying to spray things off. 31:37 That means they burn until they consume. 31:39 And this is what Jesus said. 31:41 Says in Revelation: "Fire comes down from God out of heaven" - 31:44 Revelation chapter 20- "and consumes them. " 31:48 That means they're devoured... there's nothing left. 31:50 Pastor Doug, you say that but I'd like to have some Biblical 31:52 support for that passage. 31:54 All right. Jeremiah chapter 17 verse 27. 31:57 It says here Jerusalem would be destroyed 32:01 with unquenchable fire. You can just read about that, 32:04 the whole prophecy there. Says the gates would be burned 32:07 with unquenchable fire. 32:09 If you know the rest of your Bible history... 32:11 I can't go to all the passages. 32:12 The Babylonians came. They conquered the land of Judea. 32:17 They burned Jerusalem. 32:19 They burned the gates. 32:21 Nobody was there putting it out 32:24 but they're not still burning today, are they? 32:27 And then you can read in the book of Jude. 32:30 You want to find out what that eternal fire is that Jesus 32:32 was talking about: Jude verse 7. 32:36 Can't tell you what chapter 'cause there's only one chapter 32:38 so all Jude has is verses. 32:40 Jude verse 7: 32:41 "As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them 32:45 in similar manner have given themselves over to sexual 32:49 immorality and gone after strange flesh 32:51 they are set forth as an example 32:55 suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. " 33:00 Now that eternal fire... What it means is the result 33:03 of that fire is eternal. 33:04 It's amazing. Sodom and Gomorrah lived 33:07 oh, 1800 years, 2000 years before Christ 33:11 is when those cities were flourishing. 33:13 And when that fire rained down from God out of heaven 33:16 and burned them up they were judged. 33:18 And to this very day you can go to where that region is. 33:21 It is the lowest point on earth: 33:23 1,300 ft. below sea level. 33:24 It is out under the Dead Sea. It is bad land. 33:28 You can't grow anything there. 33:30 It is under just a curse. 33:32 Those cities were burned with eternal fire 33:35 and the Bible says that they are set forth as an example 33:38 of what the wicked can expect. Are they still burning today? 33:42 Why does it call it eternal or everlasting fire? 33:46 If, heaven forbid, my little pulpit here which is 33:50 made out of some kind of wood product - 33:52 should suddenly ignite into flames 33:55 and I stood back and we all stood back to watch, 33:58 and it burned. I've never seen a pulpit quite like that before 34:02 but I like it. 34:04 But if it burned up and we didn't extinguish it 34:08 that would mean it was unquenchable. 34:09 Suppose we tried and we couldn't... unquenchable 34:11 until it burns all up and there's nothing left. 34:15 How many of you remember that burning bush that Moses saw? 34:19 It burned and yet it was not consumed. 34:22 How many believe it's still burning out there today 34:24 somewhere? 34:27 But it was unquenchable at the time. 34:31 So this would be burned up... that pulpit, that particular 34:34 pulpit. It's been burned with eternal fire 34:36 'cause it will never appear again. It is gone forever. 34:40 It is unquenchable, eternal, everlasting destruction. 34:46 It's gone! That's what the Bible says is going to happen 34:49 to the wicked. They're burned up with everlasting fire. 34:51 All right. Well I know I've been monopolizing the time, 34:53 Pastor Barney. You were giving another verse here. 34:56 I have another one. Thank you very much. 34:58 Revelation 20 verse 10. 35:01 This is a tough one for you. 35:03 It says, speaking of the destruction of the devil: 35:06 "The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire 35:10 and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are 35:14 and they'll be tormented day and night 35:17 forever and ever. " 35:22 Well, it's comforting to know that it especially says that 35:25 about the devil. But in the Bible the word forever 35:28 that's used there in the Greek is the word eon. 35:31 Have you ever heard someone say "why I haven't seen them 35:34 in eons? " An eon is a long yet unspecified period of time. 35:39 The term forever is used 56 times in the Bible 35:45 where it also denotes a limited period. 35:48 Some examples would be 35:50 when Hannah brought young Samuel to the temple. 35:53 She delivered him to Eli and said: "I'm bringing him here 35:56 so he can serve in this temple before the Lord forever. " 36:00 Well he's not still serving there today, is he? 36:03 If you read in the book of Jonah 36:05 chapter 1 tells us that in verse 17 Jonah 36:09 was 3 day and 3 night in the belly of the great fish. 36:12 In Jonah's prayer - chapter 2 verse 6- he says 36:15 "the earth with her bars was about me forever. " 36:20 Now I suppose that felt like Hades to Jonah. 36:23 Can you imagine what that would have been like? 36:27 To me whenever I think about the story of Jonah 36:29 the more I try to imagine it to be in the 36:34 digestive system of this sea monster 36:37 where if Jonah's alive it stands to reason 36:42 that there could have been something else that was on the 36:44 menu that day before or after Jonah... 36:47 Or he might have had dessert after Jonah; 36:49 he might have had appetizers before... 36:51 And so there in that sea monster there could have been 36:54 stinging jellyfish. Flashing bioluminescence. 36:58 Octopus. Whales like to eat squid. 37:03 Can you imagine three days and three nights 37:06 in that darkness in the digestive system of a... 37:09 this sea monster? Would it feel like forever? 37:13 Let's suppose for a moment that the wicked... 37:16 One problem I've got with the idea that the wicked 37:20 burn forever and ever is 37:24 that would mean that some teenager 37:28 who reaches the age of accountability. 37:30 You pick that age... whatever that age is. 37:31 Say it's 15. 37:33 That teenager doesn't accept Jesus and they die lost. 37:37 According to Pastor Barney's belief, 37:39 a lot of evangelicals, as soon as he dies 37:43 he is going to go to a lake of fire. 37:46 And he is going to burn there and writhe 37:52 and shriek and scream in unimaginable torment 37:57 moment after agonizing moment endlessly, 38:02 hour after hour, day after day, week after week 38:07 screaming, burning, shrieking 38:11 year after year, millennium after millennium. 38:15 And after a million years have gone by 38:18 he's only just begun to burn. 38:21 And he burns as long as Adolph Hitler. 38:24 According to that belief that's exactly right. 38:29 But Jesus said every man is rewarded according to his works. 38:33 If everybody gets everlasting fire, 38:37 then how can everybody get the same fair reward? 38:42 Well there's some things, Pastor Doug, that we don't 38:45 understand. It's the mind of God, 38:46 and we need to trust the love of God. 38:48 We need to trust the judgment of God 38:51 and just don't question those things. 38:54 Well in my Bible He says: "Come now let us reason 38:57 together. " I think that the Lord wants us to understand 39:00 these things. And would you agree with me, 39:04 Pastor Barney, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world 39:07 and that He paid the penalty for sin? 39:11 Absolutely. We agree on that one 100%. 39:15 So what is the penalty for sin? 39:19 Oh you know that. You're just saying that for the benefit 39:21 of the people here. The penalty for sin is death. 39:26 But if the penalty for sin is death 39:28 and Jesus paid that penalty, 39:30 we've got a problem if the penalty for sin is everlasting 39:33 torment in the flames 39:35 'cause Jesus died, He suffered, 39:38 and He rose. He's not still burning today. 39:42 So how could he have paid the penalty for the whole human 39:44 race if the penalty is really eternal torment? 39:49 Have you got another question? 39:54 I think that's a good point. 39:57 So the word forever from the Bible itself is sometimes... 40:02 not always obviously. When God tells us we have everlasting 40:04 life and we'll live forever we read it in its context. 40:07 When it's talking about the punishment of the wicked 40:10 what kind of words are used? 40:12 It says consumed, perish, die. 40:16 Says burned up. Says never will they be any more. 40:20 Even concerning the devil it says: "I will bring forth 40:22 a fire from the midst of thee" - Ezekiel 28- 40:24 "and it will consume thee. 40:26 You will be a terror and never shall you be any more. " 40:29 If anybody deserves to burn forever, 40:32 it'd be the devil, right? 40:34 And he may burn for several days. I don't know. 40:36 Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein, 40:39 and there are going to be some other despots. They may 40:41 burn for a while. Can you imagine burning 24 hours? 40:46 A week? But no... And you know what? 40:50 I'm thankful to tell you today 40:52 that an ever-growing number of Christian theologians 40:55 are agreeing. Recently John Stock just passed away, 40:58 one of the greatest theologians of the last century... 41:00 he believed exactly what I'm telling you today 41:03 that yes, the wicked are punished. 41:05 There is a lake of fire. They do not burn 41:07 forever and ever... they are ultimately annihilated. 41:10 God says: "I make all things new. " 41:13 There is no more pain or suffering in the new earth. 41:16 All things are made new. 41:18 That doesn't mean He's immortalizing sinners. 41:23 All right. Number six: 41:34 Now let me read that for you. 41:36 If you turn in your Bibles to Luke chapter 16 41:40 beginning with verse 19: 41:42 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple 41:45 and fine linen who fared or feasted sumptuously every day. 41:50 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus 41:52 full of sores who laid at his gate desiring to be fed 41:55 with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. 41:58 Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 42:01 So the beggar died and was carried by the angels... " 42:04 right the way, notice... "to Abraham's bosom. 42:07 The rich man also died and he was buried. 42:10 And being in torment in Hades 42:15 he lifted up his eyes and he saw Abraham afar off 42:19 and Lazarus in his bosom. 42:20 And he cried out and he said: 'father Abraham, 42:23 have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he might dip 42:26 the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue 42:28 for I am tormented in this flame. ' " 42:31 There you've got it. Lazarus, this wicked man, 42:33 selfish man, he is tormented in the flames 42:35 and he's conscious during that time. 42:39 "But Abraham said to him: 'son, remember that you in your 42:42 lifetime received your good things and likewise Lazarus 42:44 evil things. But now he is comforted and you are tormented. 42:51 Besides this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed 42:56 so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot 42:58 nor can those from there pass to us. ' 43:01 Then he said: 'I beg you therefore father that you would 43:04 send them to my father's house for I have five brothers 43:07 that he might testify to them lest they also come to this 43:09 place of torment. ' Abraham said to him: 43:12 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. ' 43:16 He said: 'No, father Abraham, but if one went to them 43:19 from the dead then they would repent. ' 43:22 But he said to him: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, 43:26 neither will they be persuaded though one should rise 43:29 from the dead. ' " 43:30 Seems pretty clear to me, Pastor Doug. 43:31 It's telling us that immediately after death 43:34 people are either going to Abraham's bosom 43:36 or they're going to torment. 43:39 All right. Well I think the key word, Pastor Barney, 43:42 is the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus. 43:45 It's a parable. 43:47 If you take all the parables in the Bible literally, 43:50 then you'll believe that trees talk to each other as they do 43:53 in the book of Judges and you'll believe that people should be 43:55 sheared like sheep. Jesus used a lot of analogies 43:59 to teach a point. Now, you have to ask yourself... 44:02 once again, don't ever build a doctrine on one verse. 44:05 This is only found here in the gospel of Luke. 44:08 I believe it's inspired, but the message here 44:10 is in the last few words. 44:12 Jesus is using an incredible, incongruous 44:18 poles in this story. He's taking the hero of the Jewish faith 44:24 and he says that Lazarus, this poor man who dies, 44:28 he goes... And by the way, it's a Greek name... 44:30 it's the Greek derivative of Eleazar... 44:33 he goes and he is in Abraham's bosom. 44:37 So here you've got the Greek poor beggar 44:39 who looks like he's under the curse of God - 44:41 the only cleaning he gets is from the dogs - 44:43 but he ends up in the Jewish place of paradise. 44:47 And then you've got the rich man who you'd think would be 44:50 in Abraham's bosom... he goes to the Greek place 44:53 of torment. Every Jew knew Greek mythology. 44:57 They had been conquered by Alexander the Great 45:00 hundreds of years earlier. They all knew about Pluto. 45:03 the god of Hades, the dogs of hell, and the whole thing. 45:06 And it was Greek mythology. 45:08 It's like in the English language. 45:10 If I should tell you right now 45:11 "one day Alice was walking in Wonderland... " 45:14 One sentence. Does everyone know right away 45:17 that I'm using an illustration that you're not to take 45:20 literally everything I'm saying. 45:21 When Jesus incorporated these things, 45:24 He was teaching a parable. 45:25 The parable was that the Jew should not think 45:29 because they were Abraham's children 45:31 they were automatically saved. 45:33 That they might be shocked that others would be 45:35 in Abraham's bosom. 45:37 And that they shouldn't sit with the Gentiles starving 45:40 for the truth that they were feasting on - 45:43 only comfort they got was from the dogs... other Gentiles - 45:46 and here they were neglecting them and feasting on the truth 45:50 and thinking that we're the favored chosen people. 45:53 Churches sometimes do that too. 45:54 So the message of Jesus is: "If they don't believe Moses 45:58 and the prophets they won't be persuaded though one 46:00 should rise from the dead. " It's a parable. 46:02 Who believes that Abraham's bosom is big enough to take 46:06 all the resurrected? 46:08 I mean, just picture that for a moment. 46:12 Do you believe the people in heaven and hell will be able to 46:14 talk to each other? 46:16 Does anyone here want to be in heaven talking to people 46:20 in torment? Do we believe that one drop of water 46:24 would cool a person's tongue? 46:26 I mean it would sizzle and evaporate before you ever 46:28 got there. All these powerful metaphors. 46:31 To take this story literally I think is a dangerous 46:33 interpretation. 46:35 Well Pastor Doug, if it's a parable, why does He use 46:39 a real name there? 46:41 It's... all the other parables He just says this man 46:44 and that man were doing this but here He picks a person's name. 46:46 It's a real story. 46:48 Well that is a good point, Pastor Barney, but I think 46:50 there's a reason Jesus used the name Lazarus. 46:53 Did Jesus raise somebody from the dead named Lazarus? 46:57 Did the religious leaders choose to believe? 47:01 You said: "Oh father Abraham, if someone went to them 47:04 from the dead then they'll believe and repent. " 47:06 Jesus said: "If they believe not Moses and the prophets 47:10 then they won't be persuaded though one should rise 47:12 from the dead. " Jesus' greatest miracle was 47:15 raising Lazarus who had been dead for four days 47:17 and instead of believing they wanted to kill Lazarus. " 47:19 So He incorporated the name to add intensity 47:23 to this parable. 47:25 It is just that... a parable. 47:28 People do not die and go right to heaven and hell 47:31 before the resurrection. 47:33 What's the purpose of the resurrection? 47:35 The Bible says the Lord Himself will descend from heaven 47:38 and then the dead in Christ will rise. 47:40 There'd be no purpose for the resurrection. 47:42 By the way, I do have another website I'd like to mention. 47:48 Big subject. This is one of the most popular websites 47:50 you're going to find on the Internet on this subject. 47:52 It's got a lot of good theology. 47:53 Very simple: www. helltruth. com 48:00 So... next question. 48:07 Now we're going to talk about heaven. 48:14 Number seven: 48:19 Pastor Barney, take it away. 48:22 I Corinthians 15:50. 48:25 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood... " 48:32 The Bible says that we're spirits 48:34 and the Lord is saving our spirits. 48:36 And so it's the spirits that go to be with Jesus 48:39 at death. It's not flesh and blood. 48:42 We're going to be spiritual creatures. 48:43 Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God. 48:46 Well Pastor Barney, I also agree with that verse 48:49 but I think what Jesus is telling us is that our 48:51 new bodies - our glorified bodies - will be both 48:54 tangible and spiritual. 48:57 When Adam and Eve sinned and their garments of light 48:59 went out, they lost the spiritual dimension of their 49:02 nature. Right now there are angels in this room. 49:05 Jesus said: "I am with you always. " 49:07 There's a whole spiritual realm we cannot see in these 49:11 heavenly places. I think with the new glorified bodies 49:14 we will be able to see all that again. 49:16 Now let me give you some verses here in the Bible 49:18 that I think help support that. 49:20 Romans chapter 8 verses 8-9. 49:33 So here when Paul's talking about being in the flesh 49:36 or being in the spirit, he's not talking about being in heaven. 49:39 He's talking about those that are in the Lord. 49:41 Our flesh and blood - these bodies that we have now - 49:45 are carnal, mortal, diseased bodies. 49:49 They cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 49:51 But we're going to have real bodies in heaven. 49:54 It says here... couple more scriptures. 49:58 Luke 24 verse 39. 50:00 Jesus when He arose from the dead: He had a real body. 50:17 Now granted that He didn't say "flesh and blood... " 50:19 He said "flesh and bones. " 50:20 But I think it qualifies that Jesus was emphasizing 50:23 "I am real. " And then when they touched Him 50:26 and they still looked like they were amazed 50:28 He said: "I'm hungry; do you have anything I can eat? " 50:31 And several times after the resurrection when 50:33 He appeared to the disciples He ate in front of them 50:36 to accentuate He was real. 50:39 Again. Philippians 3:21. It says: 50:49 What kind of bodies will we have? 50:52 The same kind of body that Jesus had. 50:54 It will be a glorified spiritual body. 50:56 When God made Adam and Eve they were doing real things. 51:00 In the kingdom we're going to plant vineyards and eat 51:02 the fruit of them; we're going to build houses 51:04 and inhabit them. It tells us that we're going to 51:07 enjoy the works of our hands. 51:09 We'll be real people doing real things 51:11 and we're not going to be floating around on clouds. 51:16 All right. Number eight on heaven: 51:22 Tell you what, Pastor Barney, I'm going to let you answer 51:26 that one. Well thank you, Pastor Doug. 51:30 I Corinthians 13:12. 51:33 Of course we'll recognize each other in heaven. 51:36 Our powers of discernment are not going to be less 51:40 they're going to be more! 51:51 What do you think of that? 51:55 We agree! 51:59 I think Pastor Barney and Pastor Doug ought to 52:02 shake hands, don't you? 52:06 OK. Let's go on to the next one. 52:07 I just wanted them to be friends before it was all over. 52:10 I have to live with myself after this program. 52:16 Question number nine: 52:25 Revelation 21 verse 4: 52:41 You know, there may be some tears and some sadness 52:45 when Jesus first comes and we meet Him in heaven. 52:49 That's part of the purpose of the 1,000 years: 52:52 to answer questions. But during that time 52:55 if we see someone we love or someone we cared about 52:58 is not there, we may have feelings. 53:01 Do angels have feelings? 53:03 Do angels rejoice and sing when someone is saved? 53:07 Do angels cry or are they grieved when someone dies 53:11 unprepared? And so there will be some... 53:14 God does not erase all sense of emotion from us in heaven. 53:19 Does the Lord and the Holy Spirit have feelings 53:22 and sometimes does the Holy Spirit grieve? 53:24 So you can be sure that in heaven they're looking on 53:27 with great intensity here. 53:28 But don't worry about going through eternity 53:30 being unhappy because you say "I could never be happy 53:34 in heaven without this person or that person. " 53:37 And you might wonder how you could ever be comforted. 53:40 But it won't be a person comforting you. 53:42 It says God Himself will wipe away their tears. 53:46 I believe the Lord can do that. 53:48 So everybody can have that peace and that happiness in heaven. 53:53 Number ten: 54:00 Pastor Barney, I think that we could probably agree 54:02 on this one. Do you want to go ahead? 54:04 Thank you, Pastor Doug. 54:07 By the way, um, I just want to confess - 54:12 I'm not sure where to stand and tell you this... - 54:18 I have listened to a lot of preachers in other 54:21 evangelical mainline churches. I know they know the Lord. 54:24 I have been moved and inspired by things they've said 54:26 and some of their insights into the scriptures. 54:28 As long as it doesn't contradict the Bible, I think there's a lot 54:31 of truth. And I'll tell you another thing: 54:34 there are a lot of those ministers out there 54:38 I have heard them quote illustrations that I have given 54:41 on television on their radio and television programs 54:44 that I made up. 54:46 Not the ones that I borrowed from other preachers. 54:49 Happened this week... they're listening. 54:53 Amen! And so that's why we do these programs: 54:56 we need to study together. OK. What encouragement, 54:58 Pastor Barney, does the Bible offer 55:01 that I can make it to heaven with all the struggles 55:04 of this life? Romans 8 verse 18. 55:14 And again, I Corinthians 2:9: 55:31 You know, I've got some good news for you, friends. 55:35 When you get to the end of the Bible and you look at 55:37 the dimensions of the New Jerusalem 55:39 it's 375 miles on each side. 55:43 1,500 miles around... 55:45 12,000 furlongs in Biblical measurements. 55:48 Someone calculated that means 55:50 that if every individual in the world 55:53 gets 100 square feet... that'd be a little tight... 55:55 but just using that. If everybody gets 100 sq. ft. - 56:00 that's more than some cities have - 56:02 there'd be room just in the city for 39 billion people. 56:07 That's a lot more than is in the world today 56:10 and that means there's room for you. Amen! 56:15 I believe that the Lord is desperate for His people 56:18 to get it together. 56:20 I think that He has called the Seventh-day Adventist movement 56:24 for such a time as this to invite people from all faiths 56:28 to return to the faith that was delivered to the saints: 56:32 the teaching of the Bible. 56:34 He doesn't want His church divided on doctrine, 56:36 and He doesn't want us to abandon truth and say 56:38 doctrine doesn't matter. 56:40 When they heard Jesus preach and teach it says 56:44 they were amazed at His doctrine. 56:47 It was His doctrine that turned the world upside down. 56:51 Don't every be apologizing for the doctrine, friends. 56:54 And sometimes the Word separates 56:57 and I know well enough that not everybody is going to 57:00 believe. But some are going to hear. 57:03 The Holy Spirit's going to speak to their hearts 57:05 and it's going to resonate with them as it did with me. 57:08 I once went to church with Pastor Barney 57:10 and then I studied and I heard these things 57:14 and it clicked and I said: "That's the truth! " 57:16 It rings true; there's Bible support. 57:19 And I'll tell you friends, this is why today I'm a 57:22 Seventh-day Adventist Christian. 57:24 I don't want to be embarrassed when some asks the reason 57:27 for the hope that is in me. 57:28 I want to be able to give an answer with meekness and fear 57:31 and base it on this book. Amen! 57:34 Bottom line is we all want to be one in Christ. 57:37 Jesus is the Word. 57:38 So that's my invitation to you, friends. 57:41 I'd like to close this series by praying for you. 57:44 Father in heaven, 57:46 bring Your people together. 57:47 Let there be a revival of the truth. 57:49 Help there to be one fold listening to the Shepherd's 57:53 voice. We pray in Christ's name, Amen. Amen. 57:57 God bless you. |
Revised 2014-12-17