Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Annette Washington, Pam Talley
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000102A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:10 Welcome to "Celebrating Life in Recovery." 00:12 My name is Cheri, I'll be your host. 00:13 And today, we're gonna be talking 00:15 about grandparents as parents. 00:17 Did you know there is a few million kids 00:20 in the country being raised by their grandparents? 00:22 Come, join us. 00:51 You know, we're talking about unsung heroes. 00:53 And I never even thought about this issue 00:56 that we're gonna cover today except for one day, 00:58 I'm online, I'm on Facebook. 01:00 I'm on Facebook way too much. 01:02 We should do a whole program on that. 01:04 But I'm on Facebook and somebody says, 01:06 "Have you ever-- have you ever 01:08 thought about recovering grandparents?" 01:11 And the fact that they are a lot of times 01:13 raising their kid's children for a various reasons. 01:17 Sometimes it's drugs, alcohol, sometimes it's just trauma, 01:20 sometimes it's an accident, mental health. 01:22 There could be a lot of different reasons. 01:23 But I thought you know what? I haven't. 01:25 And I don't think we've ever done a program like that. 01:27 So I just put a feeler out and said, 01:30 do you think anybody would be interested in this? 01:32 And I put it on there. 01:33 And I can't even tell you from all over the world, 01:36 I had grandparents contacting me. 01:39 But almost with the sense of thank you so much, 01:41 you even recognize that 'cause I think sometimes 01:44 we just need to say, when--does anybody see me? 01:48 You know, I'm working hard, does anybody see me? 01:50 So this program is a program about grandparents. 01:54 And if you're out there, man, we see you. 01:57 And so I wanna introduce you, Pamela. 02:01 You are from-- from Saint Louis, Missouri. 02:05 And the organization is-- 02:06 "The Grandparents As Parents Support Project." 02:09 Called GAP. GAP as what we call it. 02:11 So when I put that feeler out on Facebook, 02:14 somebody said, "Have you ever heard of GAP?" 02:15 And I thought I never have. 02:17 And so I realized that you guys are everywhere. 02:20 And I want you to talk about that. 02:21 But the first thing I do is I think okay, 02:23 if we're gonna do a program 02:25 we're getting close to the airtime, 02:27 so can I find anybody close to the studio? 02:30 And I called you and I loved you 02:32 from the minute you answered the phone. 02:33 It was delightful. So tell us who you are? 02:36 And then we'll get into the program. 02:38 'Cause, you know, I want to know who you are 02:40 and why you started this or why you're involved in this? 02:43 Okay. Well, I'm Pamela Talley. 02:46 I'm an Advanced Practiced Nurse. 02:49 And in the 1980s-- well start. 02:54 I was born and raised in the city of Saint Louis. 02:58 And the oldest girl of seven children, and-- 03:02 Big family. Big family. 03:04 Parents divorced, and mom had to work. 03:07 So, you know, I had to do 03:09 a lot of the caretaking of my siblings. 03:13 I was a teen parent as well at 16. 03:17 And, but continue to go to school and college and-- 03:21 You know, when you talk about that is that that, 03:23 you know, you raised your kids and you were in that role 03:26 for you to be a parent, that's all you really ever knew. 03:28 That's all I ever knew. Yeah, I'm a good parent. 03:31 Right, right. So that was nothing unusual. 03:35 But after college-- after completing nursing school, 03:41 I just--I worked in a hospital for a little while, 03:45 but I was so perplexed by the number of young people 03:51 who was addicted to drugs 03:54 and coming in for medical care or due to accidents. 04:00 And so I just thought, you know, 04:03 "Hey, I have to try to figure this out. 04:06 There is--there has to be some prevention." 04:09 "And some way to stop some of this." 04:11 And so I did look at getting a job in community, 04:16 which I was very lucky 04:18 to land a job at United Methodist Agency. 04:23 And started working with kids who were 04:25 from a low-income housing complex 04:28 and there was gangs and drugs and all kinds of things. 04:32 So, you know, what I want-- I want you to do for us. 04:34 'Cause a lot of the viewers know 04:36 that I was homeless fairly young, 04:37 so that's streets kind of abusiveness if I understand, 04:41 but some of us don't understand that at all. 04:44 So cover that for us a little bit. 04:46 And then, you know, you have a community 04:48 where if you didn't get involved in these things 04:51 that would be unusual 'cause that's what's offer to you. 04:53 There is no options when people say, no. 04:57 They say--when people say to say, no, 05:00 then what do you say, yes to? 05:01 There is nothing there much to say, yes to. 05:05 And we are such a being. 05:07 So for many other kids, they had no choice. 05:11 And so the dynamics of what happens 05:13 and community has to change in order for communities 05:19 and families to be healthy. 05:21 And what's--what's amazing to me about your journey 05:24 is that you saw that even in school 05:26 is that somebody has to step in and do something. 05:29 Because these kids are going to be so lost. 05:32 Absolutely. So early on, at the Social Service Agency, 05:38 we started offering in AA, and they were open groups. 05:44 We actually brought them into the community 05:48 and ask them to hold step meetings 05:51 and whatever meetings they could there, 05:53 so that these families could start to get better. 05:56 Okay, and so and I love. 05:58 I love the fact you used 06:00 whatever you thought the draw would be. Right. 06:02 Because it wasn't so much the meeting that was magic. 06:05 It's that they start you needed people 06:07 to get in a healthy community. Exactly. 06:09 And I don't care what the draw is. 06:11 And just for anybody that's looking out. 06:13 You know, if they can do anything to help, 06:14 it's whatever the draw is. 06:16 If you need to do a program for daycare, do that. 06:18 If you need to NA, do that. 06:20 You need to do divorce recovery classes, do that. 06:24 But whatever the draw is 'cause what you want is actually 06:27 just form that community again. Exactly. 06:29 To--had to begin to rebuild it and it's so very interesting 06:34 that the AA and NA and the community 06:37 overwhelmingly were-- they were seniors. 06:41 I mean, I was absolutely shocked at that. 06:44 I mean, yeah, I was shocked at that. 06:45 I was shocked at that. And, but they were seniors. 06:51 And trying to stay clean and sober on a daily basis. 06:57 But also because I worked with youth in that community, 07:03 there were a number of youth 07:05 who had a single parent 07:07 and that parent was on alcohol or drugs. 07:10 And so I spent a lot of time connecting kids 07:15 who needed safe, healthy environments 07:17 and were just sick and tired actually 07:20 with a family member who did not have an addiction problem 07:25 and could take care of those kids. 07:27 And so I was-- I had-- 07:29 I was transporting kids. You kind of scanned. 07:31 But you scanned the family too that's who's clean here. 07:32 Actually, right. 07:34 Well, I would--I would have that conversation with the kids. 07:37 So who in your family can take care of you? 07:40 Who in your family can we give Christmas dinner to 07:43 and you have dinner? Yeah. 07:46 They actually cook it. 07:47 They will cook it and you all can sit down 07:50 and have dinner together. Right. 07:51 Who in your family can we give gifts to 07:55 where you're off for Christmas and you all actually get it 07:58 and they're not selling them in community? 08:01 So those kinds of conversations. 08:04 So when the kids would say, uncle so and so 08:06 or aunt so and so or grandma or grandpa 08:10 then those would be the family members that, 08:12 you know, with an intervention 08:14 we would call those family members up. 08:16 Sometimes into those things, but eventually ended up 08:18 getting those kids placed with those family members. 08:22 I spend a lot of time doing that. 08:25 And then actually working on helping those parent-- 08:28 those grandparents or aunts and uncles 08:31 to help take care of those kids. 08:33 So all over the place. 08:35 And so even when I left that particular agency and-- 08:40 But you know what? 08:41 I got to say about that agency to me 08:43 'cause I'm thinking of what all of the material you-- 08:46 all of the stuff you must've learned 08:49 by looking at the family dynamics 08:51 and how to kind of make this healthy again. 08:54 That it was you needed that. Yeah. 08:58 Oh, so put the-- Right. 08:59 To put those pieces together and understand 09:03 that there was not an infrastructure-- 09:07 in place to help families be healthy. Right. 09:12 And that is some of what through the grandparent project, 09:15 we really hope to recreate. 09:18 So you ended up leaving that agency? 09:19 And going to another agency. Doing the same thing. 09:23 And still looking at working with youth. 09:26 We're finding out that you had to work with the whole family. 09:29 Well, I started doing that at--I actually 09:35 when I went to the next agency I focused more on the adult. 09:41 Helping them to take care of the youth, 09:43 the parenting peace. That's right. 09:44 Because a kingdom house and that's 09:47 that was the United Methodist Agency, 09:49 I worked a lot on helping kids to be self-sufficient. 09:53 In many ways, you know, and helping them to learn 09:57 to cope and take care of themselves. 09:59 If you're gonna raise yourself, here's how you do it. 10:00 This is how you do it. This is what you have to do. 10:03 You know exactly. 10:04 Some people just hate the fact, like, 10:05 one time I met this kid out of Alaska, 12 years old. 10:09 And I'm teaching her how to keep herself safe. 10:12 And they're saying, "Well, you know, 10:14 shouldn't you be getting her in the safe place? 10:16 Well, look around her." There is not a safe place. 10:18 So somebody just has to teach her, 10:20 this is a reality, and so that's what you were doing. 10:22 Exactly. And that was a reality. 10:25 You have to teach them that they're living 10:27 in these households, they need an alarm clock, 10:30 you know, so they can get up 10:31 and still go to school, somebody needs to cook. 10:34 We had people to teach classes on how to just cook right out 10:38 at the food pantry based on what you get. 10:41 You know, who is there 10:42 to support you and be there for you. 10:45 You know, so-- Build some. 10:46 Yeah, help to build some of those 10:48 resiliency skills in those kids. 10:50 Because some kids will say, but it's not fair. 10:52 Okay, now let's get pass that. It is not. 10:54 'Cause it's just the way it is. It is. 10:57 And yeah, you know, we really don't want to say that, 11:00 but for some kids it's a blessing to say that. 11:02 It's not fair, but this is what you need to do. 11:05 Exactly, and frequently you hear kids say, 11:08 it's not fair or you know, they--you know, they lie, they-- 11:13 you know, they have all these issues with adult, 11:16 but if they get stuck there they'll have real issues. 11:19 Okay, you're right. You know, they do. 11:22 Okay, they are-- They're addicts. 11:25 They are addicts, what can we do? 11:28 You know, and I would always have that conversation with kids 11:31 about that elephant in their living room. 11:34 Especially when our new kids were living in those families 11:36 and they were being neglected and really needed some help. 11:41 So we're gonna see this elephant. 11:44 You know, we're not gonna-- we're not gonna say, 11:47 there's not an elephant in the living room. 11:50 It's really big. It's taken over. 11:52 So what are we gonna do about that? 11:54 Well, you can't change that, 11:56 but you don't have to stay in that situation. 11:59 You know, you're not gonna change your mom, you know. 12:02 And so, yeah, that's how that the journey 12:06 with grandparents raising their grandchildren started for me. 12:10 So you ended up from that agency that did a morphine to the-- 12:14 Actually, went to the next agency 12:17 and ended up working with girls who were in gangs a bit. 12:23 And again many of these had a single parent 12:27 and to get part of that was to protect themselves 12:31 from those things and community 12:33 just to move from one area to another area in community. 12:38 And I wish, I wish that someone could sit down 12:42 with some of these girls and they will tell you. 12:45 You know what? 12:46 There was a point in my life where nobody 12:48 was gonna hurt me again 12:49 or you were not gonna get in my face again. 12:51 And some of them are very young 12:52 when they decide that and they can get vicious. 12:55 But their viciousness is this response to, you know, 12:58 I'm done. Right. 13:00 I'm just done with being afraid. 13:01 I'm done with having someone control me in that way. 13:05 And most of the time even with gang members, 13:07 as you get underneath all that 13:08 and you just see this little girl. 13:10 It's a little girl. It's a little girl. 13:12 So they ran in a gang that became their family. 13:15 And again to help build in some of the skills 13:18 that they needed to again survive and cope. 13:22 And but we--I also noticed that they were 13:25 a huge number of grandparents in that neighborhood 13:29 who was raising grandchildren. 13:33 And I was actually doing my graduate study 13:36 at that point and decided to, you know, 13:40 may be I need to see just how many of these families 13:46 are on our caseload, what we can do to help. 13:50 Because the structure is gonna be different. 13:52 What they need is different. 13:54 What they need was absolutely different 13:57 from what families needed. 13:59 And I think we started 14:02 with about two dozen grandparent families 14:06 and over a hundred and something kids, 14:08 these families were taking care of. 14:11 And I mean, I say some of the poorest people 14:16 in the world, you know, and-- 14:19 And having a poor from even retirement for, 14:22 you know, for a different-- They're getting small 14:26 incomes, another raising kids and-- 14:28 On the small incomes because the number of these women 14:31 were 60, 70, 80 maybe have been domestics. 14:36 And so they had very little money. 14:39 There were some husbands and wives, 14:41 but they were mostly older women who were raising-- 14:45 raising kids on very little money 14:47 and spend a lot of their time 14:49 and energy going to food pantries 14:54 and thrift stores just surviving on a whole another level 15:00 that we don't even think about. 15:02 And they--you know, what I'd like you to talk 15:04 about you to is that sense of what I noticed 15:07 with some grandparents raising parents. 15:10 There's that sense of shame because 15:11 they don't want to talk about the situation 15:13 and why they're raising their grandkids at times. 15:16 And so they kind of just are plain it off 15:18 and hiding a lot of stuff. 15:22 They hide a lot of stuff. 15:25 Actually when we began to do the research on, 15:32 who these families were and what their needs were? 15:36 Many of these grandparents, we asked them, 15:40 what do you go for help or services? 15:44 And they would say what food pantries, 15:47 what church places or whatever, 15:52 but when we ask the service providers 15:55 or those organizations, they didn't know 15:58 that many of these people were even raising children. 16:03 Wow. You know. 16:04 'Cause that's so you just hide all that. 16:06 They are absolutely hiding it. 16:09 And again, so it's a very complex issue. 16:13 Some of it, it is their own denial, 16:16 but I think for many of the grandparents 16:18 it's their wish for the child, the parent of these kids 16:22 to get their self together, whatever that means. 16:25 If they're on drugs, get yourself together 16:28 get off the drugs, okay. 16:32 So for many of them, it's only those where 16:36 perhaps the child is died or he's dead 16:39 that the grandparents have been a little more forthcoming. 16:43 But even for children, parents of children 16:47 who are incarcerated. 16:49 I think that has been 16:51 the toughest group of grandparents. 16:54 The shame is so--so-- 16:58 Do we--the shame is up that--And, you know, 17:01 for some reason I never even thought about that, 17:03 but I know like in California, 17:06 the top industry is a prison industry 17:08 and I never thought about until you just said 17:10 that is all of those children are somewhere. 17:14 A lot of with grandparents, foster place 17:16 and all kind of stuff, and so even the shame 17:18 of that would be very intense. Yes. 17:22 And when somebody tells me that they're raising 17:25 their grandkids because their kids are in prison. 17:28 That that instant look on my face is then another thing. 17:31 They're either gonna come out or hide. Yes. 17:34 By the look on our face when they share with us. 17:36 Right, right, right. 17:37 So the--when we initially started the support group, 17:41 we looked at where the folks were going to get the help. 17:45 They need--and what help they needed. 17:47 So the agency where I worked, 17:50 we began to try to provide those things for grandparents. 17:54 So they wouldn't have to spend days of the week 17:58 running all over the area from one food pantry to another. 18:02 And, you know, and some of those people 18:06 were again elders and just needed more help and support. 18:11 We have found that time and time again. 18:15 A support group is good, but if you have someone 18:18 who is 60 or 70 and they have to have 18:22 childcare to do a support group. 18:26 I mean, that is just, you know, something we don't think about, 18:30 but that something that we did. 18:33 We also when we did the group provided nutritional snacks, 18:39 fruit and juices because again they're spending 18:42 so much of their money on just surviving. 18:47 And, you know, so the issues are really, really complex. 18:52 So grandparents as parents, you know, the GAP program, 18:56 I was surprised that they were-- 18:57 you guys are on a number of states, and number of-- 19:01 Well, actually there are number of groups 19:03 that have grown because the numbers have grown. 19:06 We are not per say yes. 19:08 Even though Robert Woods Johnson 19:10 supported our group in Saint Louis-- 19:13 it's a foundation supported the group in Saint Louis 19:16 to do the basic research because at that point 19:19 people hadn't really looked at all the really--the real issues 19:24 of what grandparents actually say they need, 19:27 and what their service provider say they need 19:30 which an even with that with such a mismatch. 19:33 You know, I said that they needed resource-- 19:36 they needed more finances because I've had colleagues 19:41 who were definitely middle class. 19:45 And, but if you have to take 3 or 4 grandchildren, 19:50 you know, and it's-- in a crisis suddenly 19:54 and they may come with nothing, 19:56 you know, your whole situation changes immediately. 19:59 And sometimes not only they may come with nothing, 20:03 but they may also have emotional issues 20:06 that you're gonna have to address, 20:07 so these kids have been damaged 20:09 not because somebody's mean or whatever 20:11 just circumstances and just whatever. 20:14 And now they come with all of that. 20:16 Well, many of these and that is the other thing 20:19 that people just don't really understand. 20:22 Most of the grandparents are taking care 20:24 of these grandchildren because 20:27 there has been a crisis or there is a crisis. 20:30 And so the kids have a lot of trauma histories. 20:35 And when grandparents step up and say, 20:38 "Yes, we're gonna take-- I'll take grandkids." 20:42 They don't often realize the amount of may be abuse, 20:46 neglect or trauma that the child has suffered 20:50 prior to coming to them. Exactly. 20:52 And what they're going to actually need. 20:55 And so, you know, we have talked about that, you know, 21:00 the funding needs of grandparents 21:02 when they're raising their grandchildren. 21:04 If I was a single mother, I could go and get help, 21:09 but a grandparent-- Cannot. 21:11 Oh, I hate that. I knew you were gonna say that. 21:13 Cannot. We cannot. 21:14 Cannot, cannot, cannot. 21:17 You would have to have-- have a grandmother right now 21:21 whose daughter is on heroin. Yeah. 21:23 And she has this daughter walked away 21:27 early part of December and left this 4 month old with her. 21:31 And because the grandmother-- 21:32 now she is taking the kid to the doctor. 21:34 So she is building a paper trail, 21:37 but right now the daughter continues to get the support. 21:41 And when the grandmother went to the family services, 21:45 they said, "We haven't heard from your daughter. 21:48 We don't know that she doesn't have the child." 21:50 She is like, "But I have the child right here, you know." 21:54 So until she can build a case to say 21:59 that she actually is taking care of the child, 22:02 then she can't even get food stamps 22:05 or wake or just some of those 22:07 basic things to take care of the kid, 22:09 and so when the grandmother contacted us. 22:12 You know, I didn't very-- has suggest that they call us. 22:14 And she was just looking for a baby bed for the child. 22:19 You know, she's like, "I have nothing." 22:21 And my daughter has--and I-- why do they let this happen? 22:24 I have the child, but it's what happened. 22:27 It is what happened. 22:28 And so one of the things that it sounds like 22:32 that you're advocating is-- 22:34 there's got to be a change in that. 22:36 You know, 'cause it sounds like, you know, 22:38 a family is really do kind of gather 22:40 and then tried to do the best 22:41 they can when something falls out, 22:43 like, drugs, alcohol or crisis like that. 22:46 But, you know, there's got to be 22:48 some recognition or help beyond that. 22:50 Exactly, and what happens in families 22:53 by the time an addict, 22:55 you know, an addict burns so many bridges. 22:58 Oh, it's horrible. 22:59 And so this mother has other children 23:02 who are all grown and taking care of their kids. 23:06 And so what--this grandmother reminded me yesterday 23:11 is that I just shared with her that what happens a lot of times 23:16 is the kids don't think that she should be 23:19 taking care of this grandbaby. Right. 23:22 And they want--they want the baby to be safe. 23:24 But they don't want their mother sacrificing-- 23:27 Her life. Her life. 23:29 This is her time. This is her time. 23:31 She should be enjoying her life and doing-- 23:34 And I get that, but there is a part of me 23:37 that they really gets that grandmother's heart 23:40 that says, but if I don't do this, 23:42 this child will end up in foster care or, 23:45 you know, from drug house to drug house. 23:47 And that's what grandparents do. 23:50 And so, but because they sometimes 23:52 make those hard choices which for them 23:56 and everyone that I've ever interviewed said, 23:59 it was never a hard choice for them. 24:02 It is--why? This is my grandchild. 24:04 And they just do it, other people sometimes 24:07 make a choice not to support the grandparent 24:10 and the grandbaby or grandchildren because, 24:15 you know, they feel if she just would let the child go 24:18 then the mother will get herself together, you know. 24:23 So the dyna--family dynamics are just very complex. 24:28 You know, Pamela, I just want to say 24:29 I'm gonna-- we're gonna take a break. 24:32 I'm gonna introduce other group to 24:35 a grandparent that you brought with you. 24:38 And I just want to say that we're gonna meet her 24:41 and then I'm gonna bring you back because 24:43 I really want to hear a little bit more about GAP. 24:46 I want you to tell us, what do you think 24:48 that we need to know as a community, 24:51 not only a community in the cafe, 24:52 but all our viewers? 24:54 What do we need to know? 24:56 And I want to just say God bless you 24:58 for the work that you do. 25:00 'Cause I know that it is a group that needs a voice. 25:03 They need a voice. And I say God bless them. 25:05 There are the angels on earth. They're truly the unsung heroes. 25:10 We're gonna be right back. 25:11 I want to introduce you to a grandparent 25:12 that is in the middle of all that right now, 25:14 and some people that were raised by their grandparents. 25:16 So stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17