Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Dave Casey
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000103B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:14 Welcome back. 00:15 You know, one of my favorite texts in the Bible 00:18 and I have tons of them 00:19 but one of them is Paul was talking to a group 00:22 and he is like, "You know, nobody, nobody that sins 00:26 or sleeps around or lies 00:28 or alcoholic or druggies 00:30 or somebody that's beaten up their spouse, 00:33 nobody like that is ever gonna see heaven. 00:36 And all of you were like that at one time." 00:39 And I read that and I like, 00:40 "shut up. No way." 00:42 He is saying, you know, he's talking to this group 00:44 that has gone into recovery at some level. 00:47 God has called them. 00:49 They're sitting in a building. 00:50 He's talking about everybody that they're kind of judging 00:53 and he then turns it all the way around 00:55 and says all of you were like that at one point. 00:57 You came from that place. 00:59 And so I want to introduce you to my next guest 01:02 who definitely came from that place, Casey? Yes. 01:05 You know, so your name is David Casey but you go by Casey? 01:08 Yeah, I go by Casey. 01:10 That's what most people call me. Yeah. 01:12 And you look like you just never done a thing. 01:16 I haven't been caught for everything I've done 01:19 but I've done a lot of stuff, so... 01:21 So we're gonna start-- 01:22 I'm gonna ask you a little bit, like, 01:24 when I was talking about on the teaching segment 01:27 about doing a lifestyle change and having to learn everything. 01:32 A little while into this interview, 01:34 I'm gonna ask you what you think about that. 01:36 But first tell us where did you come from 01:38 and kind of what did you get into? 01:41 I grew up in a home in a family of, 01:46 I had seven brothers and sisters. 01:49 And when I grew up, we--I'm not gonna say, 01:54 you know, like I termed it before, 01:58 dysfunctional family, it was just the way it was. 02:03 So when you say that 'cause a lot of guys are like that, 02:05 they're saying, you know, it was not bad, it was... 02:07 And then they'll talk about their mom or dad drinking 02:09 or some abuse in the family, all that kind of stuff. 02:12 When you say it was just the way it was, 02:15 was there any alcohol, was there any-- 02:17 No, there wasn't alcohol but my father was blind, disabled 02:21 and my mother, you know, dealing with eight kids with, 02:27 you know, no income. 02:29 So some of my earliest childhood memories was 02:34 she taught us how to steal. 02:36 Taught us, you know, get things for-- 02:38 Just for you guys to survive? Yeah. 02:41 If we went into a supermarket, 02:42 we went in and ate while we were there. 02:45 Or shoes or something that maybe be. 02:48 I know her intent wasn't to have me 02:52 grow up to be the person I was 02:54 but it was at the time, you know, 02:57 you want something, you want this, 02:59 she, you know, taught us to steal it. You go get it. 03:02 And that set the stage 03:04 'cause at some of my earliest childhood memories was, 03:07 you know, to do that. It wasn't-- 03:09 I wasn't ever in the mind frame 03:13 of taking somebody else's property, 03:16 it was don't get caught. 03:18 That was what we were taught. 03:19 And even, you know, to me 03:21 I think in some of those homes 03:22 were truly dysfunctional like that, 03:24 it's you really, that'd say, "Good job. 03:27 I can't believe you got those. 03:28 I can't believe you got away with that." 03:30 You know, so your, your positive stuff 03:33 comes from this twisted. Yeah. 03:36 We did that with each other, my brothers and sisters 03:39 and I, you know, "Look what I got." 03:41 You know, my dad used to say, I found more stuff. 03:44 He'd say, "I don't know how you keep finding all that stuff. 03:46 You know, you find more stuff 03:47 than anybody ever met, you know." 03:49 I found some new shoes. 03:51 Right, I found it but I was actually stealing it. 03:54 That just led me in that direction of life 03:58 where I had no boundaries 04:03 in the sense of what I shouldn't do. 04:07 You know, sure my father told us not to do those things 04:09 but I had no boundaries. 04:11 My mindset was just don't get caught, 04:14 do whatever you want. Right. 04:15 And where were you in-- and were you youngest, oldest? 04:18 In the middle. Okay. 04:20 Middle. Okay. 04:21 And so your whole life is kind of a little bit-- 04:24 well, definitely out of the norm-- Yeah. 04:27 You were loved, you knew that? 04:29 To the best of my mother's ability, 04:32 yes, I do not believe 04:34 she intended to hurt us in anyway. 04:38 It was just not having the ability to, 04:42 you know, know how to actually raise a child. 04:45 You know, all she could do was what she could do. 04:47 She was young. 04:48 She passed away when she was 37. 04:51 So she was young when she had, 04:52 you know, all of us kids. 04:54 Right. So... 04:55 Well, at what age did she have the first child? 04:58 I don't know what her age was when she had the first child. 05:01 Definitely in her teens. But she was 37. 05:02 Right, she was young when she passed away. 05:05 Well, and what she died from? 05:07 She had a medical condition, 05:09 blood clot moving to her lungs or something. I am sorry. 05:14 So you know what's interesting to me, Casey, 05:16 is that, that even the fact of, you know, when you sit down 05:19 and you start out with this, kind of I had an, 05:21 you know, I don't know if I would call it dysfunction, 05:23 but you've dealt with a lot, 05:25 even the loss of your mom early on 05:27 and your dad's disability had to play a role in your family? 05:33 It did, but, you know, 05:35 when you're dealing with these things, 05:36 you're not thinking like, you know, what was me? 05:39 Yeah, it's just the way it was. 05:41 I wasn't thinking that in my mind 05:42 but I think it does play out in my behavior 05:46 'cause I know after my mother passed away, 05:48 I become like very angry young guy with just, 05:53 you know, how can this happen? 05:54 And then deciding to take care of yourself. 05:58 Right and it was just as I matured, 06:03 you know, not matured mentally but as I got older, 06:06 the next step was drugs and stuff and I started, 06:10 you know, there was no limits to that. 06:13 There was no-- I had no reasoning 06:15 of what not to do 06:16 or don't try this. If it was there, you did it? 06:18 I did it. Yeah. 06:20 It didn't matter to me. Yeah. 06:21 And that's for a lot of people they don't understand is that 06:23 I will, I will literally take whatever is on the table 06:27 and probably more than anybody else in the room. Yeah. 06:30 'Cause you're, you know, you're just kind of crazy in that way. 06:34 But your anger drove you? 06:36 The anger drove me and I didn't realize it. 06:41 You know, you don't know these things. 06:43 I wasn't able to diagnose myself at that time 06:47 but looking back now, I was very angry 06:52 because I had no regard for anybody. 06:54 I had no respect for anybody 06:57 and whatever I wanted to do, I did. 06:59 And I didn't care. 07:01 I didn't even care about the consequences 07:03 that it would result with me going to prison 07:06 or jail or the police or-- 07:09 And all of that happened in your life? If you're-- 07:10 it all happened repeatedly. 07:12 If I was robbing a store, which I've done a lot, 07:18 and if I had a gun, I wasn't worried 07:21 that the owner of the store might shoot me, 07:24 I got this, I'm in control of this situation. Right. 07:27 So I was--you know, it does happen to people. 07:30 I mean, I've seen it happen to friends 07:32 but fortunately it didn't happen to me, 07:35 but I never had fear-- 07:36 If anybody that's gonna be shot, 07:38 it was gonna be the owner of the store. Right. 07:39 I'm the one-- I'm in control of this. 07:41 I'm doing this. 07:42 If there's gonna be fear invoked here, 07:44 I'm invoking it on you. 07:46 Right. So... 07:48 And to me what-- can you talk a little bit 07:51 about the seduction of that power, 07:55 I mean, you know that I'm the guy? 07:57 It was, it was, it was, it did, 08:01 like, buzz you up 08:02 and later on in my life I would think 08:06 because before I would walk in a building 08:08 or walk in to do something like that, 08:11 I would be able to be outside with another person 08:14 or whatever joking, laughing, 08:16 and say, "All right, let's go." Yeah, it's time to do this-- 08:18 And pull the mask down and go in with an aggression that people, 08:24 I didn't need somebody to push my button 08:28 or trigger this aggression, 08:30 it was like a transformation where in your mind 08:34 you're just, you know, I would just be extremely violent. 08:37 All right. So... 08:40 And let me just say something 08:42 and I know this is that some people say that's an act. 08:46 It's not an act, you've become that guy. 08:48 And everything-- if you say no to me, 08:51 I could shoot you in the face and I would walk away 08:54 and feel okay about that. 08:55 No, it wasn't an act, it was real. 08:57 I would turn it on. Right. 08:59 And this is where later-- years later in my life, 09:02 I tried to deal with this like, "How was I able to do this?" 09:06 It wasn't acting because if I would've been acting, 09:10 there would be a element of me being in fear. Right. 09:14 I was in complete control 09:16 and knew what I was prepared to do 09:19 to complete whatever I was doing. 09:22 And to deal with whatever happened 09:24 in that circle? Whatever. 09:25 So, so, you went from stealing in stores to armed robberies... 09:31 At 15 years old, 09:34 I started doing what they call today carjacking. 09:39 We were doing that, you know, in the '70s. 09:43 I lived in Detroit at that time and we would hitchhike, 09:46 people would pick you up. 09:48 You know, we would take their car and rob them. 09:51 Then I did start doing armed robberies. 09:54 And at 17 years old, 09:57 I was arrested for an armed robbery 09:59 and wound up going to state prison in Michigan 10:02 for 5 to 15 years at 17 years old. 10:05 Right, did you-- 10:06 how much time did you actually do? 10:08 I did 5 1/2 on it 10:10 because I was cooperating with the prison. 10:14 So let me just say 'cause, you know, when you look at, 10:18 you know, and I don't care who it is 10:20 when I deal with somebody in recovery, 10:22 when you look at a 17 year old underneath all that anger 10:26 and all that craziness as a 17 year old 10:28 and now you're in prison, 10:29 so what did that look like for you 10:30 and did you have to turn it on and leave it on for 5 years? 10:34 Just one thing I'd like to say 10:36 you were talking about making a bed. 10:38 I was at a prison in Michigan 10:40 and they were telling me to make my bed. 10:43 And I said, "I'm not making my bed. 10:46 I'm doing 5 to 15 years," You make my bed. 10:48 Yeah, "I'm not making it." 10:50 Yes, we're giving you a direct order, "Make your bed." 10:53 I said, "Are you crazy? 10:56 I'm in your jail and I'm not making my bed." 10:59 So they'd come and took me to the hole, 11:02 put me in the hole and I laid in there for about-- 11:04 So what's a hole for people that don't know? 11:06 Segregating housing unit where you just put in a cell 11:09 and you just stay in that cell, 11:10 that's it. No stimulation. 11:11 They just slide your meals in under the door 11:14 or through a slide in the door. Yeah. 11:16 So they put me in the hole and I'm lying in there, 11:18 you know, thinking, "Yeah, I'm sure I'm not making my bed." 11:21 About 12 days later I was, like 11:23 "Okay, okay, I'm making." Where is that bed? 11:24 "I'll make it. 11:26 I'll make the bed. I'll make it." 11:27 And so now, you know, I'm telling you 11:29 go home and make your bed? 11:30 I'll make every bed in the unit. Yeah. 11:33 But isn't that funny to say? 11:34 Yeah, so I was very rebellious in that sense. Yeah. 11:38 So even in prison, it was almost-- 11:41 once I was put into that environment, 11:43 especially at 17 years old, it was almost like I thrived. 11:47 It was almost like, "Oh, this is it. 11:49 This is where I belong-- 11:50 I know how to, I know how to live here. 11:52 Right, because, you know, 11:53 inadvertently, my father taught us 11:56 that violence controls people and their behavior. 12:01 This is what he tried to do by, 12:03 you know, punishing us 12:05 to not do what my mother was teaching us that violence, 12:10 you can control people and their behavior. 12:13 So they put me into an environment 12:15 that was perfectly set up 12:17 for everything I'd been taught. Right. 12:19 So I never had a period in there 12:24 where I felt like, "Uh, boy, this is--I'm out of place here. 12:28 I don't belong in prison." Yeah, I'm afraid or... 12:30 I was shocked when they first sent me to prison 12:32 because at 17 years old, 12:33 I thought the crimes that I was committing, 12:36 you don't go to prison. Right. 12:37 But they--it was. They were serious crimes. 12:40 You know, robbing a pizzeria or a store-- 12:44 Hijacking a car-- 12:45 Right, every thing was serious crimes. 12:47 But in your mind, they weren't? No-- 12:49 You haven't killed anybody. At that point, right. 12:52 And it wasn't for the lack of not trying. 12:56 You know what I mean, if a car--if somebody took-- 12:58 And one thing, you just say that so casual, 13:02 that was the lifestyle. 13:04 It is-- through that lifestyle, 13:06 you are somewhat desensitized to the inhumanity of it 13:10 of what's going on. 13:12 So, I mean, I don't say it in a cavalier way 13:14 but I did deal with it. 13:16 And it wasn't in my mind, like, I know how people think today 13:21 what you were referring to normal people 13:23 because I've been around a lot of normal people now 13:26 and I know they thing differently 13:27 because they don't understand how could you do that. Right. 13:30 So how could you even think that way? 13:32 If somebody was somewhat reluctant to give me 13:37 what I was taking, I would, you know, you would attack him, 13:41 assault him. You know, I don't want to get too graphic 13:43 but you would actually, no, no, you're setting this out. 13:47 I'm not leaving without it. Right. 13:49 And I'm gonna take everything I need to take to get it. 13:52 So if you want to, you know, how far do you want this to go? 13:57 And I've used a phrase before, you know, 14:00 when I would be doing robberies at time, 14:01 you know, telling people, 14:03 you know, "Let's not have this be a homicide. 14:05 You know, don't cause this to be a homicide. 14:08 Just get this set this stuff up. Just relax. 14:10 And I did a lot of those in, you know, prison-- 14:14 So now you talk about in so in prison 14:17 you realized that I can-- this is the people I know. 14:21 This is environment I know. I can do this. 14:27 Yeah, I hate to say it 14:29 but I kind of felt comfortable. Yeah. 14:32 It wasn't an experience like people believe, 14:35 "Oh, it must be horrible in here. 14:37 It must be bad." 14:38 No, I actually felt comfortable and I fit. 14:42 You knew the rules? Right. 14:43 You learned them. And it continued on. 14:47 Well, the first--the first time I went to prison, 14:49 it took me a long time to realize that 14:52 these people are running a prison 14:54 and they're gonna run it the way they want to run it 14:56 and I can't run it, so I needed to go with it. Right. 14:59 But I'm not talking about the rules of the prison 15:01 or the prison guards, 15:02 I'm talking about the rules of the inmates 15:04 because that's a whole different thing. 15:06 It's a whole subculture. Yes. 15:08 Yeah, but those rules can even be altered by force. 15:15 You know what I mean, if a guy says, 15:17 "Hey, man, that's my chair. 15:18 That's my"--"Not anymore." Yeah. 15:21 The rules are that, that's this guy's seat in 15:26 where you watch TV or the chow hall 15:28 or what have you. "No, not anymore. 15:30 That was your seat, beat it." 15:33 So that type of thing and the rule to that is, 15:36 are you strong enough to take this? 15:39 Are you strong enough to invoke this thing you're doing? 15:43 So guys would try to alter the rules 15:47 and they may not have the ability to do it. 15:51 Fortunately for me, a pretty big guy 15:54 and the level of my violence was limitless. Right. 16:00 So I was able to really thrive in there. 16:04 You know, what's really interesting to me 16:06 is that everything that you knew really, 16:11 you learned well and more so in prison 16:13 than anywhere else I'm sure. 16:15 You know, what I mean it's like that, 16:17 you know, now I am really reinforced 16:20 that my violence is how I'm gonna get things. 16:22 That this is what's gonna keep me alive. 16:24 The worst thing-- I've said this in the past. 16:27 I think one of the worst things that the justice system 16:30 did at that time was to send me to an adult prison. 16:36 They don't do it anymore but I actually was at that time 16:39 at 17 put into Jackson Prison in Jackson, Michigan. 16:42 It's the largest walled prison in the world. 16:45 I mean, there's every type of criminal in there. 16:48 So you're introduced to, I mean, every type of criminal that's, 16:55 you know, committed crimes in the state of Michigan. 16:58 And I think they made a mistake. 17:00 And they know this now. 17:02 Now they have separate facilities set up for anybody 17:05 from 17 to 21 and different things like that. 17:09 But that was a mistake. 17:12 'Cause if you're gonna survive, 17:14 you have to learn more behaviors. Right. 17:17 I mean, I was 17 years old. 17:18 I was big-- I was, you know, a big kid 17:21 but I wasn't willing, 17:24 I wasn't--I was willing to do whatever I had to do 17:32 to make sure people knew that, you know, I'm a big kid 17:35 but you're not just gonna come in my cell and take, 17:38 you know, my groceries. 17:39 Or you're not just gonna come in my cell 17:41 and take my stuff. Right. 17:43 You know what I mean, 'cause all that robberies, 17:45 the same stuff, the sexual assaults 17:48 all that stuff goes on in prisons. 17:50 Drugs, dealing. You know, robbing. 17:51 If somebody walking back from the store with groceries, 17:54 you got a couple guys in there that don't have nothing 17:57 and they are doing 20 to 30 years for something 18:00 and you think they care about, you know, your grandmother cash 18:05 and a disability check and sending you, 18:08 you know, $40 in a joint, 18:09 so you can walk over to the commissary 18:11 and buy a couple of items, no. 18:13 So they don't care. 18:15 So you have all that same type of behavior in there. 18:18 So it's a matter of being a man and just, 18:22 you know, now not everybody has to be involved 18:26 in that type of behavior. 18:27 You know, there's guys in there that-- 18:30 Just do their time. Do their time and pass through. 18:33 You know, they're passing through there. 18:35 And... But you survived there. 18:38 So you did the 5 1/2 years there. 18:41 You get out and what happens when you get out? 18:44 I actually thought at the time when I got out, 18:47 I said, "You know, I'm never coming back to prison again." 18:50 I actually thought, you know, I was rehabilitated. 18:55 So I said, "I'm never coming back here again." 18:58 And when I got out, it was, like, 19:00 I mean, within weeks, couple weeks, 19:05 6 weeks I was riving again, within 6 weeks. 19:09 I was doing drugs. 19:10 I was right back like I had never left the streets. 19:14 And, you know, the result. 19:17 You know, when you say that like I get out 19:19 and in your mind at least for a minute, 19:22 it's like I'm not going back there. 19:24 I'm not doing that again. 19:26 Is there anything or anybody that kind of reached out 19:31 and grabbed hold of you when you got out? 19:33 Or were you just saying, you know, 19:36 'cause, I mean, what would change? 19:38 I mean, everything that you learned for 5 1/2 years 19:40 just kind of escalated who you were 19:42 just increased all those behaviors. 19:44 So did anybody step up and say, 19:46 you know, here's a rehab or a halfway house or... 19:50 No, you know, naturally, you have a parole officer 19:53 that's willing to monitor your behavior 19:55 but they're not trying to discourage you from, 20:00 you know, bad behavior. 20:02 They're just watching to catch you when you do something bad. 20:06 They're not trying to say, like, "Gee, young man, 20:09 I hope you really make it. 20:10 I hope you do well out here." 20:12 No, they're just waiting for you to hang yourself. 20:16 So I had, my family was, 20:18 you know, my brothers and sisters 20:19 and everybody have always been supportive of me to an extent. 20:24 I'm not saying they weren't. Right. 20:27 But it was decisions that I made 20:29 to choose to go away from my family, 20:32 like you said earlier, and not be normal, 20:36 not go home and have dinner with my family 20:39 and stay at the house 20:41 and what am I gonna do this evening? 20:42 I had to do. Right. 20:44 No, no, no. 20:45 I had to go to the street. 20:46 I'm gonna miss something. Right. 20:48 If I'm here at the house, 20:50 what's going on out there I'm gonna miss it. Right. 20:52 And it was like an obsession, 20:55 a compulsion that I had to be there. 20:58 I had to be out there. 20:59 So you had that going back out, you're robbing again. 21:02 It was just weeks before you get busted again. 21:05 Now it's a violation of probation? 21:06 Yes, and a new case. Okay. 21:09 So I wind up back in prison. How long? 21:12 I got 3 to 15, the second time, that time. Okay. 21:17 And went through the whole process again. 21:20 And what I have to say too is when you get in there 21:24 even the second time is you won't pack and settle in. 21:27 I know how to do this. 21:28 Yeah, it was a little-- 21:30 at the beginning it was a little-- 21:34 well, let me, let me back track once. 21:36 I did escape in 1979 when I was in on the first time 21:42 and I escaped from state prison system in Michigan 21:45 and I was out on a run for 15 months 21:48 and I wound up getting arrested in Houston and everything. 21:51 So when I went back after that escape 21:55 and I had to do extra time in the remaining of my time, 21:58 that's when I said, "Man, this is harder coming back." 22:03 It was a little different. 22:04 So then after that period, when I got up, 22:06 it just seemed like, you know, I'd been out there. Yeah. 22:09 You know, I was out there. I don't want to be back. 22:10 Right, I don't want to be back. 22:12 And so when I got back in and I did it, 22:15 that's when I got out after that first bit 22:18 and I include that before the escape 22:20 and after the escape as the first bit, 22:22 the first sentence. 22:24 After I got out after that, that's when I said, 22:26 "I'm never going back," but I went back. 22:29 So it was a little harder when you went back? 22:32 Yes, it was-- the first it takes 22:35 a couple months to adjust and then, you know, 22:37 you're just back in and it's like you never left. 22:40 How much time-- Because the time goes so fast. 22:43 And that time I did little over the 3 22:50 because I came back on a violation 22:53 that probe board made me do some extra time. 22:55 And I was released again and... 23:00 There's a famous saying that I love in recovery. 23:03 It says, if you want to relapse, somebody says, 23:07 "Well, what do I do to avoid relapse?" 23:11 This says, if you are worried about that, 23:14 you have to got to do something. 23:15 You've got to change your behaviors. 23:17 But if you do absolutely nothing new, 23:19 it's just a matter of time before you're back in jail 23:22 or you're back in your addiction. 23:24 Like as you came out, 23:26 even here when you say that 23:27 the sadness was is not doing anything 23:30 than those behaviors is just a matter of days or weeks 23:33 before those behaviors pick up 23:34 and that's with all of us. Right. 23:36 And it's really apparent when somebody is in and out of jail 23:39 because you want to just say "Baby, don't do that. 23:42 You just did that." 23:43 You know, Cliff Harris who's a friend of mine 23:45 who was in and out of jail and his son used to say "Daddy, 23:48 that's what got you in jail." 23:49 But if nothing changes, nothing changes. 23:53 Other people can see that but for some reason at a time, 23:56 I mean, like I said, I knew prison was gonna be 24:00 the result of my behavior 24:03 but you're just hoping it's not today. Yeah. 24:05 I hope today I don't get caught. Right. 24:07 So I know if I keep doing this, 24:10 well, maybe I'll stop before I get caught. 24:12 But if I keep living this lifestyle, I'm gonna get caught. 24:14 So how many, how many times were you in and out? Five. 24:17 Five. Five times? 24:20 My heart breaks for you. 24:21 You know, I feel like, you know, 24:23 I know that your mom wasn't around, 24:24 but I feel like there somebody had to say to you 24:27 my heart breaks that you had to deal with that so many times. 24:29 I know it upset my family. One time my brother was-- 24:34 they were at my court and they were crying. 24:36 And I'm like, "What, what are you upset about?" 24:40 "We don't want to see you in there." 24:42 I said, "I'm the one doing the time. 24:44 What are you worried about it for? 24:45 Don't worry about it. I got this." 24:48 So I didn't understand that in those different times 24:52 but I've done a total of 24 1/2 years 24:56 in state and federal prisons. 24:59 And a lot of times even after that other state time 25:03 I went out and I always had been using drugs up to 1984. 25:10 And I used heroin. 25:12 I'd been a heroin addict three different times in my life. 25:15 And the crack thing was kind of just starting there 25:20 in the early 80s, mid 80s. 25:22 And I, you know, did a bunch of that. 25:24 I was experiencing with all that. 25:26 That really increases violence like crazy. 25:29 Yeah, because you got to keep it, you got to have it. 25:31 You know, with heroin, if you hit a nice lick, 25:34 you get a squirt, you're good for 10-12 hours 25:36 if you get straight. 25:37 But then you got to go out and do something. 25:39 But with the crack, you got to continuously be getting money. 25:42 And I was doing all that,I mean. 25:44 So in '84, I went back in the jail there 25:50 and I was in the county jail and I was thinking, 25:54 "Man, why am I doing this? 25:56 Why am I doing this stuff, living like this, 25:59 to buy these guys Cadillacs and let them live these lives 26:02 and I'm being manipulated here?" Right. 26:05 "I'm the fool here. 26:06 I'm the sucker." 'Cause you're not the one 26:08 that's making the money. 26:09 You're just running the trials and staying--Right. 26:10 I'm jeopardizing my life and liberty, 26:12 so this dude can drive a Cadillac. 26:15 So that's where I had a turning point in 1984 26:19 and I smoked cigarettes and all so. 26:21 And I kind of just let it all go. 26:24 I let the cigarettes go. 26:25 I let the drugs go. 26:27 At this time, you're in prison? 26:29 In jail. Deciding to do some sort of recovery. 26:34 On my own. Yeah. 26:35 I thought, I said," I got this. 26:36 I'm being the sucker here. 26:38 And I said this is--I'm no longer gonna be this way." 26:40 I'm clean enough. 26:42 And, you know, I mean, 26:43 I didn't say I was never gonna mess with drugs 26:45 because later on then I decided to be the guy. 26:47 I wanted to be the one dealing it. 26:49 I wanted to be the one making-- 26:51 I wanted to drive the Cadillac. 26:52 The Cadillac, right, which I did. 26:55 I wound up getting after this time and I wasn't using. 26:59 I didn't use cocaine or heroin or anything like that till 1999, 27:05 right before I went back into federal prison again. 27:07 And at that point of my life 27:09 I said, "Well, I got enough money. 27:11 I'm not gonna be able to spend all my money. 27:13 I'm not gonna be able to-- 27:15 You're very successful in dealing? 27:17 Yeah, very successful and I wound up 27:19 starting some other legitimate businesses. 27:21 I had a tattoo shop. 27:23 I had a night club. 27:24 I was invested in some bars with different-- 27:28 And what I like about you saying that, Casey, 27:30 is that a lot of addicts are very bright. 27:35 And with your addiction, like I'm listening to you, 27:38 your addiction was the anger and the power. 27:41 The drugs kind of tripped you up a lot. Yep. 27:44 But during that time that you didn't use, 27:46 that anger and power drove you to be pretty successful. 27:49 I always thought that before if I would use this, 27:52 this motivating force that was motivating me to stealing stuff 27:58 for crime, if I used it in a positive way, 28:02 there would be no limit to what I could possibly do. Right. 28:04 I was involved in retail fraud 28:07 where I would go in these stores 28:09 and take the garments into the fitting room, 28:13 take the labels out, sow them into other garments 28:16 with the price tag in it in used clothing 28:18 that I would get at a resale shop and return these items. 28:22 So the thing which you would be running around all day 28:26 doing these different hustles, I mean, 28:28 I made a lot of money doing it but I wasted it all on drugs. 28:31 Right. But once I decided not to use the drugs 28:35 and my focus was still hustle, 28:39 I made extremely large amounts of money. Right, right. 28:42 And my life completely changed in that aspect. 28:45 Then you started using again 28:47 and ended up back in prison? 28:48 Well, I was already going back in prison in 1990 28:52 for a federal gun charge where I was involved 28:56 with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club 28:59 and I came to this through prison. 29:02 You know, meeting some of these guys in prison 29:04 and they had a certain air about them, you know, 29:08 there's a hierarchy in the prison, so to speak, 29:11 if you're a famous criminal, you're more famous on the yard. 29:16 Guys are gonna cater to you, if you're, you know, 29:19 could be an Italian guy that's affiliated 29:21 with what our society calls the mafia, 29:24 those guys get treated different in prison. 29:27 Not to say I was being treated wrong, 29:29 but naturally you want the maximum-- 29:32 Respect. Respect. Right. 29:34 So I got involved with the motorcycle club 29:38 and there's a lot of motorcycle clubs in our societies. 29:43 But these guys were one percenter club 29:46 and it's not just a motorcycle club. 29:49 It was a sub-culture. 29:50 It was a way of living, way of life 29:53 so I didn't go through the minor leagues. 29:56 I had to go right to one of the bigger clubs 29:59 and a lot of guys don't do it that way, but I did. 30:02 And that led me. 30:06 I'll be honest, the motorcycle club 30:08 helped me in some ways by calming me down 30:13 in my reaction time to things and there's a rule in the club-- 30:18 'Cause you do educate yourself 30:20 in that businesses or selling drugs. 30:22 There's a lot of monies that go back and forth 30:25 and so it cannot be just idiots that are in the clubs. 30:28 You have people that really do know what they are doing. 30:32 And like you are saying that you get almost training 30:35 that if you just fly off the handle 30:37 it may not be the smartest thing in this situation. 30:39 You're gonna wind up in jail. 30:40 You're gonna wind up back in jail. 30:42 So we need you here. Yeah. 30:43 So don't react like this-- Cause you know even--right. 30:45 Don't react like that. 30:46 There's no needle laws. 30:48 There's no heroin laws. 30:50 There's no crack laws. 30:51 You can't deal it. You can't sell it. 30:53 You can't use it. 30:54 So they helped me in a way, I'll give them that. 30:57 They helped me in a way, like you said, 31:00 to be out for a while. Right. 31:02 And try to get myself calmed down. 31:05 The longest I stayed in the streets was 7 years 31:09 was while I was with the motorcycle club. 31:11 Other than that, I probably 31:13 would've never lasted in the streets that long. 31:14 So, you know, because of time constraints, 31:17 I would really like to know, where did, 31:21 when did it start and how did it start 31:24 where you decided or God decided that enough is enough? 31:28 Where you end up coming into a place 31:31 where you're gonna turn things around? 31:33 And what I love about, you know, 31:34 the first part of the teaching thing, 31:36 I talked about, you know, getting on a tricycle, 31:39 you're going from a Harley Davidson 31:40 to a tricycle and so, how do you do that? 31:43 And what did that look like? 31:48 What changed me I was in federal prison at that time 31:53 and I had a friend that kept promoting me 31:56 to go to the chapel. Mm-hmm. 31:58 And I said, "I'm not going to the chapel." 32:01 The chapel was for, to me, in my mind, 32:05 the chapel was for sex offenders, 32:07 pedophiles and snitchers and informants-- 32:11 And a lot of people think that inside. 32:13 And I don't think that I've ever heard anyone 32:15 actually say it other than, you know, 32:17 people that I know but in their mind, man, 32:21 that is for a whole another thing. 32:24 That's the way I looked at it. 32:26 That's what I always looked at it that way. 32:28 So I said, "I'm not going to the chapel. 32:30 Even if I did want to learn about the Bible 32:33 or learn about Jesus, learn about any of it, 32:35 I'm not doing it over there in a chapel with those guys." 32:38 So I'm sure these people were praying for me. 32:43 I'm sure she was and I continued on and then after 9/11 happened, 32:49 I was thinking what would possess somebody 32:52 to do something like this and they were saying 32:54 it was for their god. 32:56 What would possess this? 32:57 And I started studying a little bit 32:59 and I had a Palestinian guy. 33:04 He was considered a terrorist and he started talking to me. 33:10 He's seeing this behavior in me of the anger, 33:14 bitterness, all these traits that the Lord 33:18 has helped remove from me. 33:20 He's seeing this behavior in me 33:22 and was trying to enthuse me into Islam. Right. 33:26 'Cause that would be really good for sure. 33:29 Well, for his mindset. Yeah. 33:31 I'm not saying he's the representative of Islam, 33:34 but for his mindset, we did agree about a lot of things. 33:38 We did--I did like the guy. 33:41 We could sit and talk and communicate 33:42 and I did like the guy. 33:44 So I started studying and I was studying the Bible 33:47 and little by little things started. 33:52 You know, I started questioning 33:53 some things and studying 33:56 a little bit and reading more and more 33:59 and it started making sense. I love that about God. 34:02 Yeah. I love the fact that, you know-- 34:04 But the Bible confirms it that, you know, 34:07 reading the word and hearing the word, 34:08 you know, that's how our faith grows. 34:10 Exactly. And our heart changes 34:11 and that hardness starts to kind of breakdown some. 34:15 But, you know, I can see you, 34:17 you know, in there and all the sudden, 34:19 you know, the Holy Spirit 34:20 just being able to get through even a little bit. 34:24 That's amazing. 34:25 Well, for a long time and once I did start going to the chapel, 34:28 I wouldn't let nobody see me in the yard with a Bible. 34:31 I was no way gonna be walking across 34:33 the yard with a Bible. 34:35 So I was kind of trying to do it secretly and keep it quiet. 34:39 During that time when you said a prayer, 34:44 did you feel that presence of God? 34:47 Did you feel that God was with you paying attention to you? 34:51 Did you feel that yet? 34:55 Well, looking back, I'm gonna say 34:58 I felt it at different points in my life. 35:03 One time I was in a, called a dope house, 35:07 a shoot place where everybody's shooting dope 35:10 and I was a heroin addict to the extent 35:13 that the veins are--I don't have veins in my arms no more. 35:16 I mean, I was using the needles in my groin 35:19 to 'cause you got the big arteries and veins 35:22 through the center of your body. 35:24 And I was sitting there and I put a needle in 35:28 and I was just injecting the drugs 35:29 in and I thought to myself, 35:32 just in my mind, "Lord, this has got to stop. 35:35 This has got to stop." 35:37 And I got arrested that afternoon. 35:40 And that was in '84. 35:42 Now all my life, I believed that the Bible 35:46 was the word of God. 35:47 I mean, a few of the ever, I remember-- 35:48 That there was a God. 35:50 Yeah, I believed that. 35:51 I believed it, just, you know, if somebody said, 35:53 "Hey, do you know Jesus died for your sins?" 35:55 I'd say, "Sure. 35:56 Who don't know it?" 35:58 I mean, I always believed it was the word of God. 35:59 I was always taught it was. 36:01 But I didn't have a faith in it. 36:03 I didn't have-- I didn't understand it 36:07 and I didn't have a faith in it. 36:09 I believed it to be true as, you know, 36:11 intellectual thought, just as much as you believed, 36:14 you know, George Washington was the First President, 36:16 but I didn't have faith in it. 36:18 So that belief that I had had no power 36:23 to transform or change my life. 36:25 So as you're now opening up the word of God 36:27 and looking at that, ending up 36:29 in chapel is you're starting to have faith in it. 36:34 Yes, little by little, I started learning. 36:39 I've learned this if you don't know the scriptures, 36:43 how can I apply them? 36:45 If I go to my mind and I'm trying to resource information 36:49 on how to deal with a situation, and all I have is from 36:53 the circumstance s of my life, in the shoes I've walked in, 36:57 then that's only answer I can solve this problem 37:00 is through what I've learnt. 37:01 And this is violence or drama. 37:06 So this is the only way I could resource information 37:08 that I had to get it from. 37:10 By learning the scriptures, I've come to an understanding 37:14 that now I have another, so to speak, like a computer, 37:17 a databank to search out and come up 37:21 with a proper solution to the problem I have. 37:25 So I've learned by studying the scriptures 37:29 and I studied extensively in prison. 37:32 After I went in, in '99 for years, years, 37:36 studied extensively to get a understanding 37:39 because anything I do, I have to do it to the maximum. 37:42 I can't half step it. 37:44 So I didn't want to, say, walk around a prison, 37:47 you know, say, "Hey, I am a Christian now." 37:49 You know, I had, you know, 37:51 if guys--I didn't have a spiritual guide in it, 37:53 but if guys would ask me questions, 37:55 other guys that were professing to be Christians in there, 37:58 I had to know it. 38:00 I had to be able to answer it. 38:01 I didn't have nothing I could go to other 38:03 than go back to my cell, get on my knees, 38:06 pray for the Lord to give me an understanding 38:08 of these scriptures and check the word. 38:12 I bought every kind of book. 38:14 I could get a Bible encyclopedias, 38:17 Bible dictionaries, Greek, Hebrew dictionaries. 38:20 I bought every type of book I could get, 38:22 so I could get a good understanding of the scriptures 38:27 because I had to be able to know 38:31 if somebody was trying to throw me something sideways, 38:35 I had to be able to know to catch it. 38:37 Right. And your only hope for change was here. 38:40 Well, at the time, even in the beginning, 38:43 I didn't know if it would be a change. Okay. 38:46 I was just studying, 38:47 but I learnt that there is power there to change a person, 38:51 to change the way we think-- 38:53 Then when did you study-- Renewing of the mind--Yeah. 38:55 When did you start getting that? 38:56 That "Hey, I'm studying just to not get tripped up 39:00 and yet I am changing." 39:02 When did you get that sense? 39:04 'Cause that's an exciting thing to know is that God just says, 39:08 you know what, I actually want to bring 39:10 you into a place of healing. 39:12 Well, it's like anything we do weightlifting or weight loss, 39:16 other people are gonna notice 39:17 it before you notice it yourself. Yes. 39:19 You're gonna look at the mirror yourself and say, 39:20 "Man, I'm not losing my weight. 39:22 I'm not getting bigger, you know, lifting weights." 39:23 Yeah. But other people say, 39:25 "Man, big dog, you're like, you're building up. 39:27 You're pumping up a little bit." 39:29 "Oh, really. Okay." 39:30 Well, it was the same thing with me with the Bible 39:32 where I had guys in prison saying, 39:34 "Man, you're changing, man. 39:37 You used to be funny. 39:38 You used to be fun. 39:40 Come on, big dog." 39:41 But the fun that I'm not saying being a Christian 39:43 is not fun, but when people 39:45 just want to constantly dwell on profanity and-- 39:49 The twisted stuff. 39:51 Yeah, that to them, that's their reasoning for fun, 39:55 then that's where they're messed up. 39:57 I exactly went to Chicago one time to be there 40:00 and see the Jerry Springer Show because I liked it so much. 40:03 I said, "I got to go there and see it." 40:05 And I actually went there and did it. 40:06 You can't pay me to watch Jerry Springer today. 40:09 So I was--those type of things where I used to think 40:13 was cool or funny is not where I'm struggling today saying, 40:17 uh, boy, I'd really like to do this. 40:20 I'd really like to do this. 40:21 But that what used to be fun, 40:23 it's not doing that because through the Holy Spirit 40:26 once that inner transformation changes, 40:29 when the change is there, it's gonna bring our outward 40:33 actions into harmony with the Holy Spirit 40:35 but once that change has been complete, 40:38 I'm not missing this. 40:40 I love that. I'm not interested in this. 40:41 We're gonna stop right there. 40:43 I'm gonna go on a break and I want to come back. 40:45 We're gonna close out the program, 40:47 but I want to ask you a few more things. 40:50 So, you know, I hope you heard what he was saying is, 40:54 it didn't even start to really look to change his life. 40:57 He just looked to get educated to what does the word say? 41:01 To put some more information in and all the sudden 41:04 he realized that, "Hey, are you changing me?" 41:07 And everything in your life changes, 41:09 but I want to hear a little bit more about that, 41:12 so we're gonna be right back. Stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17