Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Michael Carducci Jr.
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000111B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:14 Welcome back. 00:15 You know I'd like to introduce you to a friend of mine 00:17 that I have fallen in love with, 00:18 his name is Michael Carducci 00:20 But before I do that, I want to show you, 00:23 I'm coming through this season, 00:25 remember we always cover a book. 00:26 This season is a book of Celebrations 00:28 was written by a friend of mine name, 00:30 Dr. Handysides, Allan Handysides, 00:33 and I would love to tell you stories 00:34 about this guy, he's so hysterical, 00:36 but he is also incredible 00:37 as far as what he knows and medically 00:40 and he's got a whole team that put together a book. 00:43 It's called Celebrations, the acronym we're gonna cover, 00:46 the first one was choices 00:47 and so today we're talking about choices 00:49 and so now that if you'd like this book, 00:52 man it's 10 bucks I think, 00:54 if you don't just watch the program. 00:58 So, um, Michael, when I talk about 01:01 you and I-- you know I love you, 01:02 and I love your journey and that kind of stuff 01:04 and I brought you here on this program. 01:06 And we are starting this whole season 01:08 of with choices is there you know, 01:10 do you relate to that, I mean what do you think? 01:13 Well, it's a little abstract for me 01:14 because you talk about choices and I think how that applies 01:18 but really what happened at an age that I didn't realize 01:21 until after I come to the Lord is that I had made a choice 01:25 even at a time when I wasn't even conscious. 01:28 You know, my dad was in the navy, 01:29 he be gone 3 to 6 months at a time 01:31 and he was a hot headed Italian. 01:33 So when he was home, 01:35 you know, he is very loud and abusive, 01:38 but you know then at a time 01:39 when I really needed to have my gender role model, 01:42 there my father there, 01:43 you know to kind of affirm my own, 01:45 you know, gender if you would, 01:47 he wasn't available. 01:48 So to me I viewed that as abandonment 01:51 and then when he was home, 01:52 he was so loud and somewhat abusive that 01:54 I rejected that masculinity. 01:56 So what I was left with is I had three sisters 01:59 and a mother and when my dad was gone-- 02:01 So when you say three sisters and a mom, 02:03 so you're looking at the nurturing and-- 02:06 yeah, I feel safe here and all that kind of stuff. 02:08 When dad walks in, 02:09 I don't feel safe, I don't feel loved 02:11 and I don't feel like I'm enough. 02:12 Right, right, and so I identified with my mom, 02:15 she was the only other role model that I had, 02:17 so you know, I started playing dolls with my sisters. 02:21 I started doing dress up. 02:22 I thought that God had made a mistake, 02:24 I thought that if I was a girl 02:26 that everything would have been right 02:27 'cause in comparison to the other boys 02:29 in my neighborhood, um, I didn't fit in, 02:32 I didn't measure up if you would, 02:33 and when they recognized that, they started calling me 02:36 sissy, queer, fag, all those acronyms 02:39 and then what happened is I started to recognize 02:42 that I was different than them. 02:43 I didn't know how to fix it. 02:45 I didn't know how to make it right. 02:46 So in my immature little mind I thought, 02:49 well, if I was a girl then everything would be right. 02:51 So I prayed that God would, 02:53 you know, turn me into a girl, 02:54 I'd wake up the next morning, 02:55 I fantasized about it but it didn't change, 02:59 like even when my mom forced me to do, 03:00 um, literally I remember-- 03:03 Many things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 03:04 Mean you're a boy, you're gonna play soccer. 03:06 Right, and you know what? 03:07 There was panic. 03:08 It wasn't something that I enjoyed it all. 03:09 I was terrified, anxious 03:12 and fortunately the ball hit me 03:13 on the face one time and my mom let me out so. 03:16 But I didn't ever have any males that were there, 03:20 that were available to affirm me 03:22 and because I had made that choice 03:24 at an unconscious age for myself 03:26 of rejecting my dad's masculinity, 03:29 I didn't know how to fix it, and so that... 03:31 And as you're talking about even your own stuff, 03:33 is man I wonder how many people make choices 03:36 before they even know, 03:38 so I cannot even, I am 3 03:40 and I'm making choices whether the world is safe or not, 03:43 or whether I'm a boy or a girl 03:44 or where I fit or don't fit, 03:46 I mean all of that kind of stuff 03:48 and so you know to me that is a huge statement, 03:51 so that led you into a whole lifestyle. 03:55 Well, as I understand it now, 03:57 um, not only was it environmental 04:00 but there was some hereditary factors. 04:02 There were sexual sin in my mother's family 04:04 as well as my dad's that I didn't choose to have, 04:07 but they came if you would, 04:09 you know, through the generations 04:10 and so I was influenced by that as well. 04:13 As I grew up because I didn't have 04:15 the affirmation of other boys around me, 04:17 I had this deficit, I wanted to know 04:19 what it was like to be a boy or to be affirmed that way, 04:22 but because it wasn't available to me, 04:24 then when puberty came though-- 04:26 best way that I know to explain 04:27 it is the sex that is the mystery 04:30 becomes the attraction. 04:31 So if I had healthy relationships 04:32 with the other boys in the neighborhood 04:34 then what would happen is that mysterious sex 04:36 to me would have been the female right, 04:38 but because I played with girls, 04:40 because I identified with my sisters and my mom, 04:42 that wasn't a mystery. 04:44 My own gender was the mystery, 04:45 so it became sexualized when I hit puberty 04:48 and then with fantasy masturbation coming, 04:51 I remember not wanting this recognizing that 04:54 there was something that was incomplete 04:55 or wrong about it. 04:57 And so as I would even try 04:58 to bring my mind to think about, 05:01 you know, heterosexual thoughts, 05:02 it still eventually just gave in 05:04 and the masturbation process also was a-- an escape. 05:08 It was... 05:10 Can I ask you? 05:11 You know what role shame place in that 05:13 'cause I think that we kind of discount 05:15 the fact that all the sudden now, 05:17 because I'm not kind of doing the normal stuff 05:21 that now I'm ashamed and I'm hiding 05:23 and I'm withdrawing and I'm doing, 05:24 I don't want anyone to know, 05:26 and I don't want to be like you were teased anyway, 05:28 I don't want to be teased anymore, 05:29 and I just want to fit in. 05:33 Uh, the shame part, 05:35 you know, I don't even think 05:36 that I knew that it was totally wrong 05:38 but it wasn't something that I felt comfortable to share 05:41 because-- yeah, I remember checking 05:44 out a book in the library in 7th grade 05:46 and wondering what sex was like 05:48 and I tried to in my mind imagine 05:50 how that could be, my parents have shared that with me, 05:52 um, unfortunately and I think probably my mother regrets it 05:55 but when my parents divorced, 05:57 when I was 10 my mother gave me 05:58 all of my dad's pornographies, 06:00 so you know, um you know, 06:02 I was exposed to some of that kind of stuff 06:05 and that started that line of thinking 06:07 but the shame that I think I had was the fact 06:10 that I didn't know how to reach out, 06:12 I didn't know how to connect and again, 06:15 you know, living with my mother 06:17 and my three sisters, I already felt isolated, 06:21 you know from an early age. 06:22 So what-- so in your life, 06:24 how did that unfold in your life, 06:27 'cause you end up going into high school, 06:30 you end up going into all that kind of stuff 06:32 and so where did your life-- where did this take you? 06:34 Okay, well, I remember I went to live with my dad 06:37 when I was about 14 06:39 and I eventually went to academy and I was, 06:41 um, you know I got baptized, 06:43 I accepted Christ as my savior 06:44 and I went to academy. 06:47 The enemy is so incredible about 06:51 planting things in our life. 06:53 So 'cause I want to say for a lot of times, 06:55 people will say, you did that 06:57 but it was not real, 06:58 and that's is that true or was it real, 07:01 did I-- were you leaning towards 07:04 like who is God and what is that about? 07:06 Right, in my limited understanding, 07:09 I accepted Jesus as my savior, 07:11 I didn't understand the process 07:12 that it was a work that he wanted to do through me. 07:15 I thought that I had to be good, 07:18 I thought that I had to lose 20 pounds 07:20 before I joined the gym, 07:22 I didn't understand the work of grace 07:24 and so when I went to academy... 07:26 Those daily choices. 07:27 Right, right, my roommate was, 07:30 you know, in juvenile detention 07:32 and he was, you know, 07:33 court ordered to go to the academy. 07:34 So, you know, here I have a roommate 07:36 that's experienced in homosexual activity. 07:38 He recognized a weakness in me 07:40 and within about a month 07:43 we had engaged in that activity. 07:45 But what was so shocking to me 07:47 Cheri that night when I went to bed, 07:48 I remember crying and realizing, 07:50 you know, that I was now exactly everything 07:53 that those kids have called me, 07:55 everything that I was, 07:56 it affirmed to me that I was a homosexual, 08:00 but the-- I think the most difficult part 08:02 was accepting the fact that it felt good, 08:04 it confirms something in me 08:06 and I think that was horrifying to me knowing that 08:09 I wasn't in God's plan, that this wasn't 08:11 what he wanted you know for me in my life, 08:13 but I couldn't deny the fact that it affirmed something 08:16 and it feel something for me. 08:17 And it felt safe. 08:18 Yeah, um. 08:19 No? 08:20 No, I didn't feel safe, I felt more alone, 08:22 I felt rejected by even my God. 08:24 Oh. Yeah. 08:27 So what was amazing is, 08:29 you know, my roommate and I getting kicked out 08:31 for smoking pot in the room. 08:33 The dean found out about the situation, 08:35 nothing was said, 08:36 but you know, I got right back on track, 08:37 I went to the Bible conference 08:40 and rededicated my life to the Lord, 08:42 got a girlfriend dated her, you know, for 3 years 08:45 but still I was still addicted to the masturbation, 08:49 and that's cycle hadn't stopped even though on the outside 08:53 I was looking good on the outside, 08:55 but what was happening inside was I think the same struggle 08:58 that many kids in the dorm were struggling with this as well. 09:01 You know, with addictions 09:02 to masturbation if I could be so bold. 09:04 What I hate about that 09:05 'cause I hear what you're saying 09:06 and what I hate about that 09:07 whether it's same sex or opposite sex 09:12 is that we are so afraid to say the words like, 09:15 you ever-- like even when you say the M word 09:19 you are like, I'm sorry you know what I mean. 09:21 And it's like being able to sense that 09:22 we're struggling with these really deep issues, 09:24 these identity issues all of that kind of stuff 09:27 and if you-- most of us are afraid. 09:31 Yes, let me tell you something that 09:33 just blew me away there. 09:34 It was a senior year 09:36 and we're talking about in the late 70s 09:37 and the senior Bible teacher took the boys aside 09:39 and the girls separate and with the boys he said 09:42 99% of all males masturbate, and he said 1% lie 09:46 and right there I thought, well, if this is coming from, 09:49 you know, the Bible teacher, 09:50 I guess Jesus just isn't powerful 09:51 enough to help me with it. 09:52 I took that as total license 09:55 and what so sad is, is had the other like 09:58 the deans of the high school or even other teachers, 10:00 you know, brought the guys aside 10:02 and said there's victory in Jesus 10:03 over every sin temptation. 10:05 You know, what profound information 10:07 that would have been for me as 17 years old to hear, 10:10 instead what did is it, is it reinforced this behavior 10:14 that lasted up until my 40s. 10:17 And I wish we could do a whole program on this, 10:20 I think I'd so get fired. 10:22 Yeah. 10:23 But even getting victory in that-- 10:27 that area of your life. 10:28 It is so framed. 10:30 But it's difficult but it's so framed, 10:31 its like all of the sudden 10:33 when-- like coming out of, where I came from 10:36 and all the guards are gonna un twist me sexually 10:39 and he says you know what can we actually even go there 10:43 and I'm thinking I don't know, you know I don't know, 10:45 I use it as a volume, I use it as whatever 10:49 and he's like you know what I want to go there 10:50 because you're locked in, you're in bondage. 10:53 Cheri, that's so perfect, when I was 17 years old 10:56 I remember graduating high school, 10:57 knowing what was going out of mind 10:59 and the behavior that I was indulging 11:01 and gay rights were just coming in, 11:03 I knew that I had this attractions 11:05 and I remember praying to God 11:06 and I said Lord if this is the closest we're gonna be, 11:08 I said take me now I don't want to live, 11:10 I don't want to make those choices, 11:12 even though I could feel them 11:14 banging at my door, if you would-- 11:16 I remember praying that prayer, 11:18 but again I didn't understand God, 11:20 I only judged Him according to the example 11:22 that I had with my father. 11:24 I couldn't relate to him. 11:25 He was arbitrary, judgmental, critical and very dismissive, 11:29 so I kind of thought that God was a same, 11:31 so when He didn't take my life, 11:33 I really thought that it was more rejection. 11:35 What was amazing is 20, 25 years later 11:39 it wasn't until I was telling somebody 11:41 after I had accepted Christ again as my savior in my 40s 11:44 that I was telling someone about that 11:45 and I realize that God had finally given me 11:48 the victory over masturbation and pornography, 11:50 and I realized now that when I was 17 11:53 that God were saying, Mike, 11:54 you're not ready, I can't take you now. 11:57 And so I took it that He dismiss me 11:59 but really he was saying, 12:00 I'm gonna bring it around again 12:02 and I'm gonna bring it, 12:03 you know, give you another chance at it 12:05 and it'll be redemptive and it will be healing. 12:07 Because I'm crazy about you. 12:08 I don't want to lose you. 12:10 Right. 12:11 So, you know, I could imagine, 12:13 you know, jumping into the next phase of your life 12:17 that you jumped into a world that was pretty twisted. 12:21 I wanted monogamy, I just wanted a relationship, 12:24 I wanted to be held and affirmed by a man. 12:27 And I think that's a legitimate need of every male child 12:30 and if you don't get that at the early age, 12:33 you know when boys have, you know they play together 12:35 and they have their forts together, 12:37 no girls allowed, girls have cuddies. 12:39 All of that is healthy development 12:40 and that's really what I was longing for, and I believe--. 12:42 Even with dad too 'cause you didn't get it 12:44 with dad originally. 12:45 Right, right. 12:47 And so if you don't get it at an early age 12:49 when it's developed, 12:50 really it's almost like the homosexual urge 12:53 or drive there's really just looking to repair 12:56 that gender break, right. 12:57 And so every relationship that I was in, 12:59 the five relationships that I was in, 13:02 I had ended up becoming a sexual addict, 13:04 you know for me that was my heroine. 13:06 You know every illicit encounter 13:08 actually fuelled the desire for more. 13:10 And when I first came into the gay culture, 13:12 I didn't want to have sex with a man 13:14 nor that I want to have sex with women, 13:16 I wanted to beheld, I wanted to be loved, 13:19 I wanted to be affirmed and the sad thing 13:21 was as I could only get that 13:23 when I engaged in a illicit behavior. 13:26 So my initial intent to have monogamous relationship, 13:29 I ended up hooking up with a man that was like 13:31 9 years older than me that was a sexual addict 13:34 and he introduced me to S&M behavior. 13:37 I was raped by my first boyfriend, I remember, 13:39 you know, being chained to furniture 13:41 and things that I'd never even thought of, 13:45 I would even engage in it. 13:46 And here I was allowing this person to treat me this way, 13:50 all because of I was so desperate 13:52 for that kind of love and I thought that was really, 13:54 I remember being 24 years old thinking, 13:57 well, I guess this is the best I can do, 13:59 I really should stay in this relationship. 14:01 But what happened is when the relationship was over 14:03 that addictive cycle had already begun, 14:06 dirty book stores, pornography, 14:08 picking up men in traffic, book stores and whatever. 14:12 And also just shouting out or screaming out 14:15 that I'm never gonna be just loved. 14:18 This is never gonna actually be safe that 14:21 this is the best I could do. 14:22 I'm gonna have to accept this as normal. 14:24 Well, I still was pursuing that 14:26 and I was hoping that it was possible 14:28 but the addictive cycle was so ingrained in me, 14:32 I remember saying, 14:33 well, I'm moving with this guy, if I can stop, 14:36 you know, picking people up or whatever. 14:38 And in the two and a half years 14:39 that we did as it much as I cared for this person, 14:41 I couldn't stop this thing that had already begun. 14:44 You know, I was constantly looking for it. 14:47 Remember in Genesis, it talks about 14:48 how men's thoughts were evil only continuously right, 14:52 and I identify with that, 14:53 no matter how much I wanted to be good, 14:56 I could not stop my illicit behavior. 14:58 So, you know, I want to ask you know, 15:02 how did-- how did God reach you? 15:04 I mean in an honest way, 15:06 'cause I mean, you know, to me 15:07 if we get the image of God in that check list 15:09 and He is just trying to get us to change, 15:11 we'll never-- will never see his heart. 15:14 But how did that finally happened for you? 15:16 You know, God never pulled the rug out from under me. 15:19 What was amazing is the fifth relationship 15:21 that I was in was with a very good looking 15:24 guy with big arms and big blue eyes. 15:25 He was a millionaire, 15:27 you know, was very successful in my career 15:29 doing television people for the hair and things. 15:32 I was surrounded by people 15:34 that accepted me in that lifestyle in us. 15:36 And what was so amazing 15:37 is God used somebody that I hated. 15:39 My sister had been a Christian 15:41 and her and her husband had divorce, 15:43 he left her for an unlined affair with an old girlfriend 15:46 and after 3 years of him being gone 15:49 and not taking care of his family 15:51 or any obligation, he came back 15:54 and him and my sister fell in love again 15:56 and they were getting married 15:57 and I thought she was an absolute idiot 15:59 and I went to the wedding, right, right, 16:01 and I'm sitting there 16:02 and I go oh, yeah, here comes this guy right 16:04 and he is getting baptized 16:06 and as he is coming into the water, 16:07 I'm thinking, whoa, 16:08 you know, he picks up the microphone 16:10 and I go what is he got to say jerk, right. 16:12 And as he came into the water, 16:14 he then confessed his sin to the church 16:17 and he said I want to make it right with God today, 16:20 so that I can make it right to Lord tomorrow. 16:22 And I was in the presence of the Holy Spirit. 16:24 This man that I hated I knew that, that wasn't him, 16:28 and as I was in the presence of the Holy Spirit, 16:30 top of my game thinking I had the world by the tail. 16:33 I started to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, 16:36 and that night I was all set to go out, 16:38 and fool around even I had this great boyfriend at home, 16:41 you know, I had a hotel room, 16:42 I knew where the gay bars were, 16:43 I rented a car, I had it all set, 16:45 but it was like that night that I was wrestling 16:47 like Jacob was wrestling with Jesus. 16:49 And you know, I couldn't get up, 16:51 I couldn't go out, I couldn't leave my hotel room, 16:53 but I couldn't go to sleep. 16:55 I was wrestling all night long 16:56 with what I had beheld that day, 16:58 and what was amazing is just within 2 months 17:01 I was a baptized member in the church 17:04 and the night before I got baptized, 17:05 I still had the boyfriend, 17:06 I still had the sexual addiction 17:08 but the night before I got baptized the pastor said-- 17:11 Only 'cause God has so much absolute grace. 17:13 Isn't that amazing? 17:14 He fills absolute grace, 17:16 'cause I just want to say and I didn't want to interrupt 17:18 but I want to say to-- I want to shout out loud. 17:20 My sister still has a stripper porn sight 17:24 all that kind of stuff, 17:25 and I watch God try to reach her 17:27 and in somebody says, well, you know, what 17:29 I don't think God reaches out to strippers 17:32 and I'm thinking if he didn't, we would cease to exist. 17:35 This God reach out to people in the gay life, 17:37 so if he didn't we would cease to exist. 17:40 He reaches out to us if we have breath. 17:42 We could be making this the most self destructive 17:46 choices out there and God says you know what? 17:49 I'm so longing for relationship with you 17:53 and to me as you tell the story, 17:55 I just want to kiss God on the face 17:57 and say man, thanking you for loving him, 17:59 and loving him right back into a relationship 18:02 so you-- you're getting it, 18:04 you're hearing the Holy Spirits still in this lifestyle, 18:06 still doing everything that you were doing 18:09 and then what? 18:10 I mean 'cause there is a point where you-- 18:11 'cause I know you're in ministry now. 18:14 All right, so the night that I'm about to be baptized, 18:16 my sister said what are you gonna do about your boyfriend? 18:19 And I looked at her, I got it that Jesus love me, 18:21 I got it that He accepted me exactly where it was, 18:24 and I looked at my sister I said I'm gay, 18:26 I was born this way, this is who I am, 18:28 I tried to changed, it never happened, 18:29 I prayed that it would change 18:31 and my sister, I believe was moved by the Holy Spirit 18:33 'cause she's stopped. 18:34 And the next day I was baptized 18:36 and the only verse in the Bible that really stands out to me 18:39 is that God says, "My ways are not your ways 18:41 and my thoughts are not your thoughts." 18:43 And I believe that God allowed me to be baptized 18:45 and He began that journey with me, 18:47 He gave me what His truth was in His word 18:49 and even in my ignorance then I said, 18:51 how dare you God, you know create me gay 18:53 and then tell me I'm in abomination. 18:55 That-- that's not fair. 18:57 You know, if salvation is good for them 18:59 but not for me, then that's even more rejection 19:01 and that's even in my ignorance, 19:03 Jesus said keep walking with me Mike, 19:05 and as I kept walking with Him, 19:07 every time I fell He said get up 19:09 and I would even test Him, 19:10 I would even-- I would even act out, 19:12 you know, sexually and just said, 19:14 you still want me now God? 19:15 You know after what I've done 19:16 and what I kept hearing from Him is, yes, 19:19 no matter what you've done to me Mike, 19:21 I still want you and he knew that 19:23 some of my acting out was the rejection 19:25 that I experienced from men and my desperation to find out, 19:28 you know, everybody else has left me, 19:30 are you gonna be there for me God if I really act out? 19:33 And He still kept saying, get back up Mike, 19:35 I want you and that became 19:37 the motivation to want to do better-- 19:41 Michael, you've shared with me a dream and it actually, 19:45 I think in the moment you shared it 19:47 it with me it changed me, 19:49 and can you share that with us? 19:50 Yeah, you know, I wish that this was years ago 19:53 but it was only just a few months ago, 19:56 and something that I had given into. 19:57 And I knew that it was wrong and in my own rebellion, 20:01 I had acted out against God 20:03 and I confessed it and I was repenting. 20:05 And I-- and one of the things 20:07 that I say now is I say, 20:08 Lord, help me to experience what I really did, 20:12 like it's not just that I acted out 20:13 but let me know, Lord, 20:15 how it did, what it did to you? 20:18 And so I was having the meditation 20:19 and because I'm a hair dresser, 20:21 I tend to be a little bit outside the box 20:23 so in this meditation all of the sudden 20:25 I'm holding someone's arm. 20:26 And I go why am I holding someone's arm 20:28 and I'm thinking whose arm am I holding, 20:30 and so I followed the arm 20:31 and I looked down and it's Jesus 20:34 and He is laying down on the cross, 20:35 and I'm holding His arm because my sin required that 20:39 I drive that nail through His hand 20:41 and I'm looking at Jesus' face 20:43 and I'm expecting judgment, I'm expecting, 20:46 you know, a condemnation 20:48 but what I see in His face is love, 20:51 compassion and this confidence 20:54 like this holy confidence. 20:56 And He gives me like this look, like go ahead, do it. 21:00 And I'm like no, what I don't want to drive that nail 21:01 through Your hand and He says, no, you have to do it. 21:04 That's why I'm here and you could see 21:06 the confidence and determination 21:08 that this must be done and he'd submitted to it. 21:11 I took your sin on. That's right. 21:13 Even in the midst of your acting out, 21:15 I died for you. 21:16 Right, and so--. 21:17 You do accept that. 21:18 It really brought me to the reality 21:21 of what my sin had done to Jesus and I-- 21:25 you know I didn't want to drive the nail though His hand 21:27 but that was what it caused Him. 21:29 He was showing me every time that I fall, 21:31 every time that I'm rebellious, 21:33 every time that I give in to doing something 21:35 that I willfully know that I'm doing. 21:37 I'm driving that nail through His hand. 21:40 And He says-- 21:41 It's okay. 21:42 I know it's gonna happen. 21:44 It has to happen. 21:45 And I really believe like and we're gonna open it up 21:47 for the cafe for questions, but I really believe 21:50 that what he is saying to is that, 21:51 you know, this is not something 21:55 that I'm encouraging you to act out, 21:57 because I've already done it. 21:58 He's just saying I know where you're at, 22:01 I know you are stumbling, I know you are still in pain, 22:03 I know you still have no idea who you are. 22:06 Ah, Cheri, this is the part, 22:08 you know, I speak with men online 22:11 from Australia to my next door neighbor 22:14 about them who had fallen in 22:16 and are addicted to pornography 22:17 and masturbation and the desperation-- 22:19 Trying to help them at this point. 22:20 Right. And, and-- 22:22 I just have to clarify that. 22:24 Right, right. 22:25 And so one of the things that 22:26 I really want to communicate to them 22:30 is that no matter what you're going through, 22:32 one of the things that I realize 22:34 is the only difference between the lost 22:36 and the saved is that the lost have not come 22:40 and claimed what is already been provided for them. 22:42 And not that it's a license to sin 22:44 but if I understand that every sin has been accounted for 22:47 and it's like my shame and my guilt would keep me 22:50 from coming to my savior and asking for the cleansing, 22:53 but when I did Jesus said, 22:55 Mike, it was taken care of 2,000 years ago 22:58 everything has been accomplished. 23:00 And the only reason that you would miss out on eternal life 23:03 is because you didn't choose to repent of your sin 23:06 because I already know about it, 23:08 it's already been punished for, 23:10 the account has been settled 23:12 and if you will just accept a gift, it's yours. 23:16 And so one of the things that I say to people 23:18 who are really struggling with the guilt and condemnation, 23:20 men who are married you know 23:21 and fooling around on their wives 23:23 or addicted to pornography 23:24 or whatever is I say it's already been accomplished, 23:27 I said don't let the enemy, 23:29 you know, tell you there's guilt and the shame 23:31 and keep you from running to the one who makes you clean. 23:35 You know, I know that do you 23:36 with your ministry Coming Out Ministries. 23:39 When you talk about, you're talking to men 23:40 about them cheating on their wives. 23:42 They're cheating on their wives with male and females. 23:44 So this is what you deal within your ministry all the time, 23:47 so it's pretty edgy. 23:48 Right. 23:49 We have a few more minutes 23:51 before I want to open it up for questions. 23:53 Tell me I know that you've got so many victories in your life. 23:58 What is one incident where you can think of that, 24:00 you know, this was directly God speaking to me. 24:04 I needed something practical, 24:06 I needed to know that if I apply the steps 24:09 that something would work and I was desperate 24:11 for that even as walking as Christian for seven years. 24:15 It wasn't until I heard this person 24:16 just really breakdown Philippians 2:5 says, 24:19 "Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus." 24:23 And what they basically started to say is that 24:25 I can't put Christ in my pocket or have a around me, 24:28 he needs to be in me. 24:29 And so Jesus isn't homosexual, 24:31 Jesus wasn't addicted to pornography, 24:34 and so sin originates in the mind 24:37 and so as I allowed Christ in my mind, 24:40 if I just give Him Permission, 24:41 He begins to work, right. 24:42 I start changing the thoughts, 24:44 I started getting victory over the thoughts 24:46 because I'm thinking His thoughts, right. 24:48 And so what I realized is one day 24:50 I was so tempted to give in to sin 24:54 and the feeling was overwhelming 24:56 and again I just thought, 24:57 well, let me put this into practice, 24:59 does it really work? 25:00 Is it really that simple and the profound part about 25:02 that verse is the first word let. 25:05 And what I realized is that all I have to do-- 25:07 the only thing I can do is give Jesus permission 25:11 to give me His thoughts and as I-- I said and I said, 25:14 Lord, I'm giving You permission 25:15 to take this thoughts out of my mind right now 25:17 because if you don't, 25:18 I'm gonna give into that behavior 25:20 and within three seconds, Cheri, 25:21 I was thinking about baseball and I hate baseball. 25:24 What was amazing is I got this victory 25:26 within that second and I started to realize. 25:29 You know what it was really funny? 25:30 'Cause I bet you were thinking out about baseball 25:32 'cause God knew that, 25:33 that would make you laugh almost, 25:35 'cause it's ridiculous. 25:36 You know, I remembered just saying, 25:38 Lord, You are so good 25:40 that You can change my thoughts like that, 25:42 because even when I'd try on my own, 25:44 I could never change my thoughts about that, 25:45 I couldn't turn around 25:46 those sensual sexual thoughts in my head. 25:49 But He was able to do it 25:51 just because I gave Him permission, 25:52 I don't have to lose 20 pounds 25:54 before I joined the gym. 25:55 I can have the victory today right now. 25:58 Exactly, what's incredible about that is that when, 26:01 when-- and you are talking about, 26:03 you know, gay issues and porn 26:04 and stuff that always kind of grade some people 26:06 'cause it feels like, oh, that's not my problem. 26:10 It's one of the number one problems in the US 26:12 and worldwide, 26:14 most of us struggle with our sexual 26:16 identity issues in some way. 26:19 But you know when God says, I'll change your very desires, 26:21 I literally will come in not rob you of your sexuality 26:26 but anoint it cleaned it up and hand it back to you. 26:28 Ah, Cheri, I think a lot of people do that, 26:31 they say Lord take these thoughts away, 26:32 or, Lord, you know, take this feelings away 26:35 and God gave us those feelings as a blessing. 26:38 What He ask us to do, 26:39 is to rain them in and submit them to Him. 26:41 Because His ideal isn't to take away the blessing, 26:45 His ideal is to teach us the discipline 26:47 of handing it over to Him, 26:48 to give real victory in our life. 26:50 And so I was praying that same prayer 26:52 not getting the results I wanted, 26:54 because I wasn't understanding what God wants to give me 26:58 and what He wants to teach me to discipline. 27:00 Absolutely and the choice you made that, 27:03 you know, we talked about choices on this first segment, 27:07 but the choices you make it, 27:08 that basic choice that I'm gonna believe God, 27:10 if He says that if it's in His word, 27:12 if He says He's gonna change my mind, 27:14 if He can do that, 27:15 if He could change my very thoughts and desires, 27:17 I'm gonna chose to let Him. 27:19 Let Him, not strive to do it, 27:21 not figure out how I'm gonna do it better 27:23 but just let Him and, man, if we could get that, 27:26 if we could get that the Holy Spirit 27:29 and God Jesus the whole thing would make sense to us. 27:32 So we're gonna open up the cafe for questions. 27:35 We're gonna start here 27:36 'cause I know that you had a question. 27:38 Yes, Mike, my name is Bob, I'm from North Carolina. 27:43 I'm curious about the aspect of pornography 27:46 and how much of a role it played 27:48 in you accepting lifestyle you did. 27:51 I was addicted to pornography 27:53 from the very early age probably around 7-8 years old 27:56 and that last lasted until I was 51 years old, 27:58 when I accepted God and asked Him into my life 28:02 which is only been about 16 years ago. 28:04 The masturbation was a total addiction 28:08 and that was the really the last addiction 28:10 I was able to give up, 28:11 that's the last victory that God gave me, 28:15 alcohol, tobacco, street drugs, caffeine 28:17 all these other things God had already dealt with, 28:19 but that was the last one. 28:20 And even several months after I became a Christian, 28:23 after I turned my life over to God 28:25 that was still a very strong addiction, 28:27 I had tapered off, decided this was not right. 28:30 I shouldn't be doing this 28:31 and over a period of several months 28:33 God probably convicted me 28:34 that you just need to stop all together, 28:36 was that-- did play a substantial role 28:40 in the lifestyle that you accepted. 28:42 Well, you said your father you ended up 28:43 with your father's pornography, 28:44 was there enough in that 28:46 to lead you also into the gay lifestyle? 28:49 I think that the enemy was able to use 28:52 the images that I was putting in my mind, 28:53 the pornography was-- was straight porn 28:56 and you know was just playboy magazines so, 28:58 that wasn't changing my attractions 29:01 that had already been set 29:02 because of the rejection of males in my life. 29:06 But definitely I believe that, 29:08 that if our thoughts aren't focused on things 29:10 that Jesus would focus on, 29:12 if He's not the center of our thoughts, 29:14 then the enemy is and the enemy can use 29:16 straight porn or gay porn. 29:19 Because it is so powerful and what's really awful about 29:22 that is studies statistically speaking says that 29:25 if I get lost in any kind of porn addiction both-- 29:28 whether a male or female that I'm able to connect 29:31 and love the people around me 3-7%. 29:35 So then I'm more disconnected, 29:37 so I start to get more and more isolated 29:39 even if I'm surrounded by a ton of folks 29:42 which makes me act out even more. 29:44 So I really believe it's such a cycle, 29:46 it's so-- it never lets go of you. 29:51 Cheri, what you said is so profound 29:53 because what we found in studies 29:56 is that there's an OP that's released 29:58 when you have a sexual release, so the enemy knows that 30:00 if he can get you focused on that, 30:01 that is your heroine, it's almost just like heroine, 30:04 so what happens is you build up this dependency on that 30:07 and the more you are pursuing 30:09 what God had intended you to be, 30:10 he intended you to be an intimate person. 30:13 God himself in the trinity is an intimacy lock thing, 30:18 so He's trying to be intimate with us 30:20 this-- the breakdown the cheat is 30:22 that the enemy has given you false intimacy with images 30:26 when you really made to be intimate with one person, 30:29 that person that God has blessed you 30:30 within your relationship, right. 30:32 And so that's the sad part, is that we sell ourselves out 30:35 of what God had intended us to be. 30:36 And it's not real, it's not actual connection. 30:38 That's right. 30:39 We are more lonely and we jumped 30:41 to the addiction of the seduction even more. 30:44 What's really, you know, to me 30:45 when I even look at all of that 30:47 and I start to pay attention to all of that is God says now, 30:50 what if you trust me 30:52 I would literally like to untwist you 30:54 and reconnect you with people that are real. 30:57 And when somebody says we need to be 30:59 and please don't get offended by this, 31:01 but when you say we need to be more Christ like 31:03 or connected with Christ as an addicted, addicted person, 31:08 you know, I have no idea what you just said, 31:10 what do you mean? 31:12 Do I need to get wings? 31:13 Do I need to sums out, 31:14 just sing hymn songs the rest of my life, 31:17 I didn't realize but when I want to be 31:19 more Christ like, I need to laugh out loud, 31:21 I need to connect with the people I love, 31:23 I need to be able to tell somebody I love you 31:26 and actually feel it and mean it 31:27 and connect with that and it doesn't mean 31:29 that I need to quote scripture the rest of my life, 31:31 even though the scripture is good, but to be Christ like 31:35 is to actually be engaged with my life, 31:37 to be connected to God and others and so, you know, 31:40 He really is giving us something, 31:42 the real for something that was false and destroying us. 31:45 That's right, Cheri, 31:46 when I came to Christ, I was so broken, 31:48 I didn't know how to relate to anyone intimately. 31:51 Even in my relationships, 31:52 I couldn't even connect with them, 31:54 even though I made attempts to, I was still broken. 31:57 And what Jesus began was this journey because 32:00 every time I fell, He was there, 32:03 He had to prove Himself and win me back 32:06 to understand what intimacy was, 32:07 and so I didn't have an example in my life 32:10 of what that was like through my parents. 32:12 But Jesus was that example 32:13 and when I came back to Him, He was always there. 32:16 He showed me what real intimacy is 32:18 and what true love is. 32:19 And as I learned from Him, 32:21 then I was able to start experiencing that in my life 32:24 but it wasn't easy, that's right, that's right. 32:26 And giving it. How ridiculous is that? 32:28 And how cool is that God of the universe says to you, 32:31 Michael, man I don't care 32:33 if this takes us the rest of your life, 32:35 I will prove to you that I'm trustworthy. 32:37 And you're thinking really, you know, you are God, 32:41 why do you have to prove to me, 32:42 I'm not sure but if it takes that, 32:45 I'll do that for you. 32:46 But He knows it's important, 32:47 He wait, He knows that it's vital to me. 32:50 Zephaniah 3:17, that blew me away. 32:52 He will rejoice over you with singing. 32:55 And I take that very personal. 32:56 That means Jesus is going to sing to me personally 33:00 'cause I didn't think that I was worth that. 33:02 I didn't think I was worth that to God or to anyone, 33:04 but when I read that and as He has shared Himself with me, 33:08 I get that more now. 33:10 That's incredible, that's incredible. 33:12 Okay, Andre, I know that you had a question. 33:15 Yes, Mike, I appreciates your testimony, 33:17 I can relate so all of what you're talking about, 33:21 I'm from Virginia and in my struggles I've-- 33:25 I keyed in on several things actually 33:28 and it's a properly a two part question I have for you. 33:31 Ah, I listen to what you say concerning your father 33:35 and quite naturally the mother and your sisters were there 33:38 so that's where you go. 33:40 And looking at that and engaging it against 33:45 what I went through, a mother who, in my scenario, 33:50 a mother who did not acknowledge you whatsoever, 33:54 being raised by a grandmother, being raised by a step father 33:59 and a father for a lot of your years of your life 34:03 to half of your life, we didn't even know who he was 34:06 I was forbidden to even asking question about, okay. 34:09 So in my scenario not only they have father 34:12 who didn't much about you anyway, 34:14 mother who couldn't give but only what she could 34:16 give herself because of what was given to her, 34:18 don't know much you can't do much, okay. 34:21 He left me in a turmoil, and the turmoil left me 34:24 and was who am I? 34:26 Because prior to all of what I'm telling you 34:29 it's because of time I'm giving it to you like this. 34:32 But prior to all that my life is-- 34:34 was in a complete turmoil 34:37 so much so you mentioned choices 34:39 and choices is a key word with everything 34:41 because you can't do anything in life without choices. 34:44 I live my life like Solomon, 34:45 so if you know anything about Solomon. 34:47 I hear it. Okay, that's-- 34:48 That's in your whole life, okay. 34:50 And-- it left me in two messed up areas, 34:54 one, I didn't know who I was, so I spent my life 34:57 literally trying to figure it out who I am, okay. 35:01 Am I worthwhile and other-- 35:03 and other piece was this-- this issue of love. 35:07 A key then when you say it, I didn't want be a man, 35:10 I didn't want to be of women, I just wanted to be accepted, 35:13 acknowledged and loved. 35:15 I went through life and it left me with that issue 35:19 and other one was the negative transcripts, 35:21 I didn't hear you mention 35:23 I think one negative transcripts, 35:24 you know, that's real important when you're going through-- 35:26 going through stuff like this is a challenge-- 35:28 and even to addictions within itself. 35:30 What part did negative transcripts play in your life? 35:34 Who was it for while were you trying to please, 35:36 for me I was trying to please a father 35:38 who didn't want me anyway. 35:39 I wanted to be acknowledged and the negative transcripts 35:42 says you that whenever you came to door of-- of success, 35:45 hey, you can only come and looking to wonder, 35:47 but dare not touch the door to open it. 35:49 Did you experience that in? 35:51 If so how did you overcome those things? 35:54 Let's think as though the life scripting. 35:55 Yeah, yeah, my father called me dummy, idiot, moron, 35:59 I got all that and I heard that and I-- 36:01 and I thought that I can never be a success. 36:04 God blessed me with financial success or business success, 36:07 but that wasn't really my pursuit, 36:09 it wasn't until seven years 36:10 after being an Adventist Christian 36:12 that I was walking with Jesus Christ 36:14 and He had shown me what that love was 36:16 and I accepted that. 36:17 And it wasn't until I remember the verses says, 36:20 if you know-- if you see me, you seen the father 36:23 and again I had another meditation about that 36:26 and I'm gonna bath tub, and I'm sick with my sin. 36:29 The fever so bad I can't even hold myself up in the tub. 36:32 And Jesus is on one side bathing me, 36:34 washing away my sin. 36:35 I'm so delirious, 36:36 I can't even hold myself up in the water, 36:38 but I really didn't understand the true nature of the father 36:41 until as I saw the image open up 36:44 and as I'm looking in, I realize 36:45 that there is somebody on the other side of that tub 36:47 and I look in and I strain 36:49 and I see that it's God my father 36:51 who I thought was just like my-- 36:53 my biological dad that dismissed me 36:55 that judged me, that didn't want to be with me, 36:58 but here is my father, 36:59 God my father holding me up in the water 37:01 while my savior is bathing me 37:03 and he affirmed to me right then 37:05 that I indeed was never an orphan 37:06 and that He was with me through all of that 37:09 and He was able to break through the negative tapes 37:12 of hearing dummy, idiot, moron and all of that. 37:15 And it's his responsibility 37:17 to prove Himself and He wants to. 37:19 You know, what I-- what I love 37:21 what you said Andre too is that 37:23 where were you went out and totally went, 37:26 you know, off the grid as far as your sexuality 37:29 and men and all that kind of stuff 37:31 and pouring and even-- even having the lover 37:33 and then going out to bars and all kind of stuff, 37:36 whether-- whether Andrew I been said 37:37 it's sounds like where you said is that 37:39 you know, I was someone like Solomon 37:40 and that I held nothing back from me, 37:43 but got to lot of women, so it's been able-- 37:45 you know, we all step out and we act out, 37:48 we're off the chats as far our acting out. 37:51 Regardless so I've-- I did the first drug 37:54 and I was-- I was gone 37:55 and try to get as many drugs as I could. 37:57 So I think that until we get that core thing about, 38:01 I just want to be loved and I just want to be fit in 38:03 and I just want to know that I'm saved 38:06 that we're gonna act out in some way. 38:08 And what's I really hate it, 38:10 I want to come back and ask you about this, 38:13 is I really hate the fact that then we step into a world 38:16 where we're trying to figure out how safe we are, 38:18 and the people around us 38:20 are freaked out about our behavior, 38:22 so when we come in and I, you know, 38:24 it's like I came in as a heroine addict, 38:28 a drug addict, and that kind of stuff 38:29 and that freak people out a little bit, 38:31 I'm trying to find a family and safety in there. 38:34 You come in as a gay male, was that difficult 38:38 and at times is that difficult and I don't want to say that 38:40 but I want to ask you that, 38:42 so will be right back with our-- 38:43 I want you to stay with us. |
Revised 2015-02-12