Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Rene Quispe
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000116A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:10 Welcome to Celebrating Life in Recovery. 00:12 My name is Cheri, I am your host. 00:15 Can we survive like adultery and anger and abuse resentment? 00:19 This is the continuation from last week 00:21 and this journey is incredible. 00:24 Come join us. 00:53 Welcome. 00:54 You know I want to say welcome to everybody at the cafe too. 00:56 It is been like really so far 00:58 it's been such an incredible season 01:01 and I want to introduce you in a minute. 01:02 But first we're gonna talk about 01:05 we were going through the book Celebrations, 01:06 we were talking about health stuff. 01:09 We have such a heavy topic today 01:12 really incredible victory 01:13 but a heavy topic today and we are on rest. 01:16 When I am trying to figure how to tie that together 01:18 so I have really prayed about it 01:20 and I want to start with lighter way 01:23 that in the US or in the world in general 01:26 we are going a thousand miles an hour. 01:28 We don't want to rest, we are just on it. 01:31 I saw a commercial not long ago 01:32 that just I laugh my head off. 01:34 The commercial was this guy and I am gonna read it to you 01:36 'cause if you get some of it. 01:38 But this guy was healthy looking really handsome, 01:41 he's like running and he says he's telling if how 01:44 what he did in last five hours. 01:46 Not the last five days, not the last five weeks 01:49 but the last five hours. 01:50 He says that he went to marathon 01:53 while knitting a sweater 01:55 while was reading a book teaching him 01:56 how to himself how to play guitar. 01:59 Well, he was becoming a ping pong champion 02:01 while recording his first album. 02:03 And he all did that by pumping himself 02:06 full of a popular energy drink and he knows five hours 02:09 so you might know the name of the drink. 02:12 But anyhow so it's like we all would like running like crazy. 02:15 We are just doing so much 02:17 and we are taking more caffeine and more stuff 02:19 and we are staying up later and we are doing 02:21 all that kind of thing and it's killing us. 02:24 It's really killing us and if you are in recovery, 02:26 if you are doing any of that recovery stuff 02:28 we have to start looking at that. 02:30 We have start looking to slow down. 02:33 A friend of mine interviewed this doctor 02:35 named Archibald Hart 02:36 and he wrote a book called Thrilled to Death. 02:38 And in his book he said 02:40 that we are a pleasure seeking society 02:43 but and that's called a hedonistic society. 02:47 We want to find pleasure and we wanted to feel good 02:49 and we wanted to happen yesterday 02:51 and all that kind of stuff 02:52 but he said in that seeking of pleasure 02:54 we have thrashed ourselves so much 02:56 that our pleasures centers have flat line 02:59 and we become and hedonistic. 03:01 We are unable to find pleasure, we've actually thrashed. 03:06 We have taken away the ability to even connect us 03:09 so then we reach out even more addictively. 03:11 And so I know you've probably thinking 03:13 where am I gonna go with rest on this. 03:15 So that's all the external rest. 03:18 They have been able to take a breath 03:19 and pull ourselves back. 03:21 I am really fortunate to belong to a church 03:24 that says one day a week we're gonna rest, 03:27 we're gonna take a Sabbath rest, 03:29 we're gonna check out and actually connect with God 03:31 and to end and literally put work aside and all that. 03:35 But what I have found in recovery is what happens 03:39 when the rest that we need is from our own head. 03:43 You know, we have literally-- 03:45 not now we literally, we literally come to a place 03:50 where I am ashamed, I am resentful, 03:53 I am fighting against my own thoughts 03:56 and my own stuff and what happens 03:58 when the rest I need is from myself. 04:00 And that's why I want to introduce you, Rene Quispe. 04:04 You are-- your wife was on a show last week 04:06 talked about some stuff in your life. 04:09 Really intense stuff but what happens 04:12 when the rest is in our head. 04:14 Its not there. Yeah, and it's not there. 04:16 I'm not finding it anywhere. Not finding it at home. 04:19 When you have a restlessness and frustration and anger-- 04:24 Bitterness. 04:25 And when you have bitterness and guilt 04:28 that will never allow you to rest, 04:31 and rest is something we all seek for. 04:33 Most people seek for physical rest. 04:35 A physical rest is not the best rest. 04:38 It is the mental, emotional, spiritual rest 04:41 what we really need. 04:42 They say that in hospital visits now in this country 04:46 most people come in their primary issue 04:48 is fatigue, tired. 04:51 Not only physically but stress mentally, 04:53 physically, emotionally, spiritually 04:55 I am exhausted and can you help me? 04:57 And our body starts to break down. 05:00 I want to I know that your journey 05:04 to a place of rest took a while and so-- 05:06 Yes. 05:07 Can you tell us a little bit about not only 05:09 what happened in your marriage or in your life 05:12 but you know where did you come for? 05:14 What was your family like? 05:15 Well, I was born in Argentina 05:18 and my family was a dysfunctional family. 05:21 So I was growing up 05:22 and the situations were not easy. 05:25 My father left us when I was nine years of age. 05:28 I was the oldest. We were four kids. 05:30 My little baby sister was there and my mom was very depressed. 05:36 She was neurotic at times 05:39 and of course I did not like all that. 05:43 I was very frustrated. 05:44 My natural temperament said that I want to be, 05:47 I want to enjoy life. 05:48 I want to be successful. 05:51 So since I was a very young person 05:53 I developed some defense mechanism 05:57 that would help me survive that. 05:59 So I concentrated on what was good. 06:02 I was denying what was bad. 06:05 I disconnected from anything 06:06 that was painful or I did not like. 06:09 Right. 06:10 And so you're almost putting your hand up 06:12 like don't even bring that to me. 06:14 That's right. 06:15 Because you are not gonna rob me from my life 06:17 just because your right now having a hard time. 06:19 So I had a lot of good moments 06:22 because I was concentrating on that. 06:24 I would just seem to push away anything 06:27 that was not good to me. 06:29 And more when I was a teenager about 15, 16 06:33 I had a very sad experience with my dad. 06:36 I went to see him if he's gonna get me some clothes and he-- 06:41 when I got there after a long trip 06:44 I haven't seen him for years. 06:46 He just welcomed me saying what are you doing here? 06:49 And he began shouting at me angry. 06:51 My mind blocked everything he said. 06:53 I don't even remember what he said 06:55 but I remember his face, 06:56 I remember his shouting and he sent me back home 06:59 without giving me breakfast. 07:00 It was early morning. 07:02 And but I disconnected from that pain also 07:05 years went by. 07:07 Not even remember it when you say disconnect. 07:09 Yeah, disconnect. This is not important. 07:10 I did not even tell my mom what happened. 07:12 You see, I just I may remember what happened 07:15 but I don't allow it to touch my heart by emotions. 07:19 So eventually just to connect 07:20 with that particular event of my life 07:23 we were already married 07:24 when my wife and I was here in Texas 07:27 I was finishing my doctorate in psychology 07:29 and I became aware 07:31 that I was very traumatized with my dad. 07:35 And I realized I need to go and forgive him. 07:38 So I did make a trip to Argentina 07:40 and I went to his house 07:42 and by God's grace I forgive him. 07:44 And God helped to understand things 07:46 that I was not even aware of 07:48 you know why he was acting like that. 07:50 God helped me to understand why he was acting like that. 07:52 But it was years later. 07:53 Years later, years later 07:55 and I realized that they are so many things inside us, 07:59 inside my own life and that now I understand 08:02 but that so I was growing up I did not. 08:04 You know when you are young 08:05 I went to university and I was-- 08:08 now I gave my heart to the Lord when I was 17 years of age. 08:11 And I decided to study for to be a pastor. 08:14 And I wanted to be a good person, 08:16 a good pastor and I dedicated all my time 08:20 I wanted to excel in everything. 08:21 I remember that eventually 08:24 I decided I need to get married. 08:26 And I asked the Lord to find me the woman 08:29 that was gonna be my wife. 08:32 I remember saying to God. 08:33 You know, God, I want You to choose 08:35 the girl that is supposed to be my wife 08:36 but make it that I like her too. 08:39 Because that would be awful. Very important. 08:42 That's funny. 08:44 When I met her we fell in love instantly. 08:47 I mean, it was one time that we talk 08:50 and I knew she was a girl. 08:52 What was it about the conversation 08:54 that made you just now? 08:56 I don't really remember all that we talked 08:58 all I remember is that I find out 09:00 that she did not have any boyfriend. 09:02 That I remember. That I asked. 09:03 Somehow I asked that question 09:05 and I went back to my room jumping up and down. 09:09 I said God, thank you she is the one. 09:12 And then we began to date and it was not very easy 09:16 because we were in a Christian setting. 09:19 And remember this was the 60s, okay. 09:22 And there were regulations 09:24 and she was in a different part of the campus. 09:29 And its hard for people nowadays to understand 09:32 how serious it was, separated. 09:34 Yeah, because they allowed us to visit, 09:37 to see each other under supervision 09:39 two hours every two weeks or something like that. 09:41 I mean that's not enough when you are in love. 09:44 You want to see them everyday 09:46 and she was just across the fence 09:47 on the other side on that hospital. 09:49 So eventually I said man, I want to be with her. 09:53 I want to see her. 09:54 I want to, you know, 09:56 and I am not sick so I cannot go there. 09:59 Eventually I decided that I need to have a surgery. 10:05 And I found the way to do it 10:06 because the hospital was offering to those 10:09 who are planning to go to there Amazon 10:11 as machinery a free appendectomy. 10:16 Just in case, you know, 10:18 if you are in Amazon River working 10:19 and you have problem with your appendix they are gone. 10:21 So they just took it out. 10:23 They just took it out even if you were okay. 10:26 So I put my name there 10:27 even though I wasn't sure 10:28 if I was gonna go to the Amazon. 10:29 Yeah. 10:30 And they did a surgery and I was close to her. 10:35 But, you know, now I look back 10:38 and now I realize beautiful the love is. 10:43 It's really selfish because it's what you want. 10:47 You make me feel good. Yes. 10:49 I like the way I feel around you. 10:50 Exactly. Exactly. 10:51 And you know it took me many years 10:55 to understand the fact 10:56 that human love without God is selfish. 10:59 And we all need to learn love with a different kind of love 11:03 self giving love, sacrificial love 11:05 but that's not the way 11:06 we usually begin a relationship. 11:08 At least most people you know 11:10 and my way of relating to Alvy at the beginning was, 11:13 you know, she was the best, 11:14 she was the only one 11:15 in all of these beautiful feelings. 11:18 She was the nurse wanted to go on ministry. 11:20 Yeah. Everything you dreamt of. 11:22 Everything and we were really in love 11:25 and it was just a most beautiful experience 11:27 and then a few months later when she-- 11:30 one day she talked to me with a little 11:31 bossy tone of voice and I did not like it. 11:35 And I began to realizing you know those little things 11:38 that you find after your marriage 11:41 and it takes a long time but if you do not know 11:44 how to feel deal with those moments 11:46 when you get frustrated or you don't like it 11:52 that will build up and if you don't know 11:54 how to clean resentment from your heart 11:57 it's gonna destroy your relationship. 11:59 Well. I know that I talk today. 12:02 Right, but you were talking about as a child 12:04 what I did was just shattered off. 12:06 At the beginning actually when they were problems 12:08 with the Alvy I would try to deal with it 12:10 and if there was not a solution 12:12 as I wanted it I would disconnect. 12:15 You see because that was my natural way 12:17 of dealing with problems. 12:18 She would feel rejected. 12:20 And she would feel rejected and there would be-- 12:22 logical sequence of conversations 12:25 and arguing and being frustrated, 12:27 being angry and that kept on building up 12:30 even though you know after we finish in Argentina 12:33 we came to the States. 12:34 I went to Andrews we got a master. 12:37 We went back to Argentina. 12:39 We worked as pastor in churches 12:42 and then for four years I was teaching 12:44 at the university in Argentina. 12:46 And we had our two kids and we decide to come back 12:49 to the States to study some more. 12:51 So even this whole time 12:52 Rene, is that you are saying my career very successful. 12:57 I'm, I'm really bringing things into my life 12:59 that improve my life, I am loving what I am doing. 13:03 I'm in control of everything 13:04 except for I go home and then that psycho starts. 13:08 That was the only time. It was increasing with time. 13:11 You know and they were many moments 13:12 that we had beautiful time, she know 13:15 but the situations were such that in time 13:18 the periods of frustration, resentment, arguing were longer 13:23 and eventually I got an other master 13:27 and then we began to doctor degree. 13:30 We were going from one church to the next 13:32 and eventually we were pastoring 13:34 the university church in Keene, Texas. 13:37 And we were just so-- I was happy with my work. 13:41 I was happy with the success of my career. 13:44 And a lot of respect from your colleagues? 13:46 Yes, and you know 13:49 because you know how to relate professionally 13:52 and you know I knew how to do my work. 13:56 And now I look back and I realize 13:59 I was doing the work because I learnt how to do it. 14:03 I knew what I was supposed to teach and preach 14:06 because I had it in my brain. 14:08 I had an intellectual religion. I had a knowledge. 14:13 I dint have the relationship. 14:15 May be I did have it and God in His patience 14:17 you know is compassionate and helps you 14:20 and you are successful because successful we were-- 14:22 we baptize a lot people is so that was just-- 14:26 So you're saying I don't want to disconnect that time 14:29 but you know looking back on it 14:31 you could see kind of the danger the red flags. 14:34 Oh, Yeah. Yes. 14:35 Oh, yeah, now I can see it. 14:37 You know in those days I usually blame it on Alvy. 14:40 You see because of whatever it was. 14:43 And so we were there working 14:46 and it was, it was very sad 14:48 because I would have promise with anger 14:52 and I would come home sometimes very angry 14:55 and I would blow up for anything. 14:58 And but of course my kids saw it, my wife saw it 15:03 but the rest of the people I was perfect pastor, 15:08 only I saw that. 15:09 You know somebody had said to me one-- 15:11 one time and tell me what you think of this. 15:13 Is that because they blew up and the wife and kids saw it. 15:18 Is it that they would almost be angry at them 15:20 that you make it as come out in me? 15:24 You know, like I am not having 15:25 to deal with this somewhere else 15:26 but-- Why do you? 15:28 Yeah, only you so it's got to be you. 15:31 Yeah. 15:32 And-- and in that even builds up even more resentment. 15:34 And remember that I-- since I was a child 15:36 I wanted to excel, I wanted to be good. 15:38 I wanted to, you know, 15:39 so I would see myself as perfect. 15:43 You see I have no problem. 15:44 Everybody knows that I can do my work. 15:46 I can do it well and what about you? 15:49 Why? Why? Why? 15:50 And so this-- let me tell you 15:52 a little story that is sad but it reveals how things were. 15:58 One time we were in that large church in Texas 16:01 and I came home angry with Alvy 16:03 I don't remember why and I went to the kitchen. 16:07 She was cooking, it was Friday 16:09 and she had prepared a lot of things 16:10 and I did not realize. 16:13 She has just washed the floor and it was wet. 16:17 And I came angry fast 16:19 and as soon as I step in the kitchen 16:22 I slip and I just flew in the air. 16:25 I mean my two feet went up like this, 16:27 my hands were like a helicopter, 16:29 my arms and I fell on my back 16:33 but as I was going down my arm just hit 16:35 one big glass dish with double eggs inside 16:40 that she had prepare for the next day 16:42 we had a lunch for a people from the church at home. 16:45 So that flew everywhere even the ceiling had piece of egg. 16:49 Can you imagine? Yeah. 16:51 And glass everywhere and of course 16:55 that was a very sad moment. 16:57 You know. 16:58 of course I blame it on her again 17:01 but you know now I realize 17:03 what is inside your heart when you act like that. 17:06 That is not God. That is not the Holy Spirit. 17:08 That is Satan's spirit. It is anger, frustration. 17:12 It's the spirit of darkness. 17:14 So instead of coming up 17:16 and just talking about full of psychic-- 17:18 coming up and really been angry at her. 17:21 Yeah, I actually have remained on floor for long time 17:25 because I was so frustrated. 17:27 And those were the things that I look back 17:30 now I realize boy, it was bad. 17:33 It was bad. 17:34 Now of course our children saw that, 17:36 the rest of people did not know it 17:38 and for Alvy it's very, very hard to deal with all that. 17:42 It was very depressing. 17:46 Imagine who is she gonna talk to about this? 17:50 Is she talk to any conference press 17:52 I could actually go and talk to him and say listen, 17:54 I got a PhD in psychology I can explain you what's going on. 17:58 You could over talk her? Of course. 18:00 This is her issue. Yeah. 18:02 So there was no way out for her and we were, 18:06 well, eventually we have moved to California. 18:11 So, so what that Rene at that point 18:13 definitely verbal verbally the anger was there. 18:16 Was it physical? 18:17 There has been some push up, pushing back and forth, 18:21 some slap or something like that. 18:25 They were moments even we both did it 18:27 to each other but mostly me. 18:29 But very not much that was another major problem-- 18:32 Mostly verbal. Mostly verbal most of it. 18:36 And we go to California, 18:39 now I am working in different studying. 18:41 I'm not working as a pastor 18:42 I'm working in a center and I feel very lonely. 18:50 I feel very frustrated, I feel very angry. 18:54 I travel, I had to go and teach different places. 18:58 And I remember that I was longing 19:02 for somebody to talk with and that's what Satan uses. 19:07 And I never thought about being unfaithful 19:10 and never wanted to until it happened. 19:15 And-- 19:16 So in your mind you just thinking 19:18 now, I finally just connected with somebody. 19:20 Somebody to talk to was that not gonna go beyond that. 19:23 Was it somebody there you worked with? 19:25 No, it was from another state. Okay. 19:28 A person that I have to leave 19:30 when, when everyday he was very seldom, 19:33 I mean few times a year. 19:35 And now it was but it was the connection 19:39 and Satan knows how to make it very attractive to you. 19:45 And so when you add to all that anger, 19:50 frustration, resentment inability 19:52 to deal with relationship this way out. 19:57 And I remember that I was very angry at myself 20:02 but I do not remember that I blackout any negative things. 20:05 Absolutely. 20:06 I did not want to think about my guilt. 20:08 I did not want to think about my life. 20:12 I was just disconnecting from everything 20:14 and trying to remain-- 20:15 You know and I and I am also saying 20:17 this little boy who sense that my dad left 20:20 as I am trying to control things 20:22 to were thing are good and I can't do it. 20:26 It's-- it's like not working. 20:28 Yeah, and-- and I was determined to be happy 20:32 but that's not the way to happiness. 20:34 You know and it was one thing after another 20:39 that was causing me to feel this horrible 20:42 feeling like I told you. 20:44 I hated myself but I did not handle way out. 20:48 What do I do? Where do I go? 20:50 I thought about divorce but God did not allow me. 20:53 You know, I even bought a book about what to do it 20:55 and I just did not even read it. 20:57 It was like God was blocking me from anything 21:00 that would be a divorce. 21:02 But I was remaining in this, this connection from Alvy. 21:06 Eventually I moved out of the house 21:09 to an apartment right there in the same city 21:11 where we were living and I was just putting my time into 21:18 whatever I was doing at a time 21:20 which was teaching in different places. 21:23 I really felt miserable. It was not life anymore. 21:27 And then the moment came of when that experience of Alvy 21:33 mentioned in the session last week 21:37 that I was at home and I asked for food 21:40 in a very demanding way and she prepared and-- 21:44 At that point had you been unfaithful? 21:46 Oh, yeah. 21:47 Okay, so that went all that's happen. 21:49 This is been already for quiet some time 21:52 nearly four to five years. 21:54 And it was a very sad situation. 21:58 I was very miserable. 22:02 I knew that I was not gonna be 22:03 able to have anything with this sort of person. 22:05 Right. 22:07 And at the same time I didn't know 22:09 where to go, what to do? 22:10 Right. 22:11 So nothing's working out. Nothing. 22:12 Not even this where I thought 22:14 that I was getting some kind of relief here. 22:16 I knew that, that was not yet. 22:17 Yeah. But I was frustrated. 22:19 I was very angry with myself, angry with everybody. 22:23 And then that night when Alvy brought me the food 22:28 and I eventually left the house remember 22:30 and she prayed and she prayed 22:33 that I God will give me a spirit of compassion. 22:38 And when I was going back to my apartment 22:41 driving the car it was a miracle of God 22:44 because I actually felt in my heart something 22:46 that I haven't felt for long time. 22:49 I felt compassion for her. 22:51 You know, I did not care about how she felt before 22:55 and now I feel this compassion for her. 22:57 So I called her back. 22:58 I took the phone, remember those phones 23:00 when they were electrical in the cars, well, anyhow. 23:04 That's funny because I do remember. 23:05 Yeah, and I picked that phone 23:08 and the static actually told Alvy 23:10 that it was my phone she realized that. 23:13 And I don't even know what to say. 23:15 So I began telling her, you know, 23:18 I did not even thank you for the food. 23:20 I know I was driving back to my apartment 23:24 and I felt compassion for you. 23:29 And there was a silence and then I said anything 23:35 and I don't even know where it came from. 23:37 I say I would like to invite you 23:39 to take little ride tonight with me. 23:42 It was almost midnight. 23:43 Can you imagine and the amazing thing 23:48 is what Alvy tells me that in her mind God, 23:51 how God let her because, can you imagine 23:54 if a jerk like me and wiser woman to go out. 23:59 The answer would be, ah? 24:00 When are you gonna ask forgiveness, ah? 24:02 Right. 24:03 Years of impatience and all the anger. 24:06 Yeah, and she-- she tells me 24:09 that she felt God guiding her saying 24:13 the one that is inviting you 24:14 is not Rene it's me, God inviting you. 24:19 So she answers-- So powerful. So powerful. 24:24 She answers, okay, I'll be ready. 24:28 And I come back... 24:36 and she was, she come out. 24:44 She was very pretty. 24:47 She gets into the car and she said thank you, 24:53 for inviting me to take this little ride. 24:57 I didn't know what to say. 25:00 I was frozen. I can't even imagine. 25:06 And then we began driving, you know, 25:09 and she looks out and says just see 25:12 how beautiful the night is. 25:13 Trying to establish a connection, you know, 25:16 and I don't -- 25:17 It's so outrageous. No, go ahead. 25:21 And I didn't answer anything 25:24 because I don't know what to say. 25:27 I'm frozen and then something happened in me. 25:33 And it's the first evidence I have 25:36 of God's changing my-- my ways. 25:42 I begin to feel and decide to put my arms around her 25:48 but I did not dare to do it. 25:50 Because of all the stuff? What if I touch her? 25:53 I told her and she tells me don't touch me 25:55 like I told her many times. 25:57 Yeah. So I was scared. 25:59 You know, I was fearful. 26:01 Fear, you know, where it comes from. 26:02 Exactly. It's not from God. 26:04 So I-- I look at her again, 26:08 I am struggling with all of this inside, 26:10 you know, and I want to put my arm 26:12 but I am not sure I can do that. 26:14 So in my fearfulness I remember 26:17 keep on driving with my left hand 26:19 and I put my right hand on my knee 26:22 and then I moved it on to seat 26:24 and we had an open seat it was Cadillac. 26:26 So I began moving my hand toward her 26:30 hoping that she would see me. 26:35 And I was like get about halfway I stop 26:38 and now here's what Alvy says. 26:40 Okay she says that she saw my hand 26:43 and a voice comes up inside her saying coward, don't touch it. 26:48 Wow. So the enemy is still speaking. 26:51 That was yeah, he's always there. 26:54 I mean he is never gonna give up. 26:55 So he is always there trying to stop 26:58 even if you are living in the spirit 26:59 he's trying to stop that. 27:01 But immediately God says, 27:03 Alvy I always come close to the sinner. 27:08 Take his hand. I just want to weep for you. 27:13 She did not touch my hand. 27:14 I mean, she did not held my hand. 27:17 I am driving and I feel something touching my pinky 27:23 and I look at my hand 27:24 and I see her hand here playing with my finger 27:31 and I leave my hand 27:36 and she began to asking my hand then my arm. 27:47 There were no words just that... 27:55 I go back and God tells Alvy don't fear. 28:03 He's gonna drop you back home 28:04 but don't fear I am working. 28:08 And I get to the house 28:13 and I leave her there she goes down and-- 28:19 I wish I can tell you that I change right away. 28:21 I did. It took a long time-- 28:24 Would you mind Rene, if we took a break 28:27 and I just let Alvy join us? 28:30 Oh, yeah, please. 28:31 I am going to 'cause you know even-- 28:34 even that moment where God is so graciously 28:37 and He forgive us and literally brings such reconciliation 28:40 we don't even know what to do with that next. 28:43 But I would like to see or hear from both of you 28:45 what happened and what that look like. 28:48 I don't know about you but I am so proud of God 28:52 and even when we don't even know 28:54 we are so self-destructive, we don't even know what to do. 28:59 God says you know what, I will be faithful. 29:02 I'll be faithful. We're gonna be right back. 29:05 I would like to invite his wife up 29:07 and let her keep him honest with the story. |
Revised 2014-12-28