Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Fran McKain
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000122B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:17 Welcome. 00:18 You know this is fun for me because a lot of time like 00:21 I bring a lot of friends and people that I know 00:24 and people that I've met in recovery 00:25 and on the journey of traveling. 00:29 But today I get to bring somebody 00:30 I worked with which is great. 00:32 And I want to introduce you to the Fran Mckain. 00:35 Fran, I want to just say how fun is it, 00:37 you are on the program. 00:38 It's awesome to be here. It's awesome. 00:40 And you have been working for True Step Ministries 00:44 or our ministry for how long? 00:46 Almost a year. Almost a year. 00:48 And I just have to-- when you came on board 00:53 I had been running at with different folks 00:55 often on most of the time by myself or since 1994. 01:01 And it kind of reflected, kind of look like that. 01:05 And I was surprised on the first couple of projects 01:08 that we had to work together on 01:11 it was amazing to watch you, 01:14 take it, put timelines to get how we're gonna do it, 01:18 when do we needed by, what kind of artist do we need 01:20 in order to get the projects done 01:23 and it was just delightful. 01:25 So I want to say thank you for that. 01:28 I want to brag on, 01:31 our new recovery version of Steps to Christ. 01:35 You had a lot to do with that. 01:38 I want to-- I had a dream years ago 01:41 about taking Steps to Christ 01:43 putting it into recovery language 01:45 we did the first season of Celebrating Life in Recovery 01:49 with the book Steps to Christ 01:50 and I really wanted to kind of change the language 01:54 and so we started to do that with the various folks, 01:58 hired someone to do it, had some addicts come in 02:01 and addicts are fun to work with 02:02 because addicts will come in and say no, no, 02:05 I could do that, just give me that 02:06 and they'll change two or three sentences 02:08 and forget about the rest of the chapter. 02:10 But Fran came in and literally took 02:12 what we had done through the years 02:15 and can you explain the process of what you did with that? 02:18 Sure, yeah, it was editing, heavy editing. 02:22 Probably, I think we went three rounds of editing on that book 02:26 and we also needed to integrate the twelve-steps into it 02:30 so that we could use that and make it really fit 02:33 with our Celebrating Life in Recovery program. 02:35 So making sure that it matches 02:37 the key messages of the celebrating life 02:40 as well as twelve-steps and all the editing. 02:44 For folks who don't-- are little more flaky than that 02:50 I just want to just interpret what you just said. 02:54 But you know, you took the twelve-steps 02:56 and literally put it in the book. 02:59 And to me when you did that I was just like 03:02 I read it the first time and I thought it was genius. 03:05 You know, because I really believe 03:07 when I first saw Steps to Christ 03:08 when I first went to it as an addict 03:10 thought it was great twelve-step program. 03:12 It had everything that you would need 03:14 in order to get a foundation underneath you. 03:16 And so you didn't have-- I don't have to guess 03:19 because what you did as it showed us 03:21 what that look like in every chapter. 03:23 Yeah, I think your intuition about that was exactly right. 03:26 I mean, the book is about recovery. 03:28 It's about how God works in our hearts to change us 03:31 and but in twelve-steps 03:33 and really wasn't very difficult because it fits. 03:35 It was awesome. 03:36 And it was a book that you loved anyway. 03:38 I loved that book. 03:39 I think-- that one 03:41 and maybe Desire of Ages are two of my favorites. 03:45 I may have you to work on Desire of Ages next. 03:47 It's a little vigor, Desire of Ages in Recovery. 03:51 That would be awesome. 03:53 But you know what's really fun, so then we want to had 03:55 how to do the design as far as the cover design, 03:59 Bob McKain who also has joined us for the ministry 04:02 and has really organize us like crazy 04:06 he's been on earlier show. 04:09 He's our executive director of operations 04:11 and he's just amazing. 04:12 He's also a photographer. 04:14 So I had that in mind what the cover would look like. 04:18 I tried to do the cover on my own in Australia 04:21 with a-- a woman in Australia 04:24 but we ended up doing it with you guys. 04:26 And I just got to say the cover was beautiful, 04:29 the inside is beautiful and it's off the press. 04:33 So I want to say thank you for that. 04:35 And then another one just before 04:36 we get into finding out who you are, 04:38 because, you know, this is all fun for me 04:40 because we now have something that we can put out there 04:43 that is really helpful like they use Steps to Christ 04:46 in this women's jail not long ago 04:48 they went through the whole thing 04:49 because you put questions on the end of every chapter 04:51 so that we could use it as a study guide 04:53 or quarterly or whatever. 04:55 And so used it in a women's prison 04:58 and yeah, so the women went through it 04:59 and they got baptized and they had all the pictures 05:01 and I just wanted to cry 05:03 because it exactly what we wanted it to do. 05:06 I love that. Yeah, that was awesome. 05:08 The next one, 05:09 we needed the children version of Steps to Christ. 05:12 So I prayed, God said, do the children's version 05:16 and I said to you we got to do it. 05:18 And you put it together within a week I think. 05:22 The plan. The plan. 05:23 I think it took us three months to put it together, 05:26 photography, editing, writing. 05:29 Writing Steps to Christ for children is a challenge. 05:32 Writing Steps to Christ for children 05:34 for five to twelve year olds 05:35 and we called it Skips to Jesus. 05:38 Because it is like Steps to Christ 05:41 but for children so it talks about 05:42 bullying and blame and lying and divorce 05:46 and now all that kind of stuff 05:47 that we don't really talk to about, 05:49 what does it mean? 05:51 How do you teach a child what the Commandments mean? 05:55 How do you teach a child 05:56 that the love of God is just so huge? 05:59 That He is not checking of our behaviors 06:01 literally trying to love us into a place 06:03 for we love each other 06:05 and our behaviors with each other are better. 06:07 You know, and so-- I just want to say again 06:11 you know, sitting with you 06:13 and kind of flushing out this project 06:16 and then having you put the ideas together 06:18 and calling me back over and it was perfect. 06:22 And I just got to say it was just perfect, 06:24 it was so cool and again we're still working 06:27 on an additional project with Skips to Jesus. 06:30 We wanted to do a whole VBS Program. 06:33 Brenda Walsh is doing a children's network 06:36 and I even talked with her about 06:37 what about a children show on recovery, 06:40 just like Celebrating Life in Recovery 06:42 but for kids and based on some of the stuff. 06:45 That would be really amazing. Isn't it fun? 06:47 But I got to say, Fran, 06:49 I don't think I would have ever 06:51 had the strength over the-- 06:57 I don't think I ever could have stood up 07:00 with these incredible ideas, 07:01 with these incredible vision that even God gives. 07:04 Because I knew that I couldn't do it. 07:06 Now that God is putting people around us 07:08 so in the team of the ministry, 07:10 that actually have those skills 07:12 that we can have these visions and have them actually, 07:18 you know, work and be good and change people's life. 07:22 So I want to just say thank you for that 07:24 and you are such an incredible person to work with. 07:26 It's been. 07:27 For me it feels like a call to be where I'm at. 07:30 It feels like everything I learned 07:32 throughout my life comes together in these books. 07:34 It's just a joy. That's so fun. 07:38 And you know, I brought you on 07:42 not to so much brag on what you've done 07:43 even though I could brag on what you've done forever 07:45 because I'm so delighted to work with you. 07:48 But your journey to me is so different than mine. 07:52 You know, I'm coming from drugs, alcohols, 07:54 on the streets I had to learn to read. 07:56 Man, you got a degree in language, 07:58 you know what I mean, it's like you love is language, 08:01 it's what you do. 08:02 So we're so different 08:03 but also even from where you came from and your home, 08:06 so I would like you to share your story 08:08 with us today, is that right? 08:10 Sure. 08:11 So where did you come from? What was your home like? 08:14 I was raised in fairly conservative 08:18 very loving Christian home. 08:20 My parents were school teachers 08:22 for the Adventist school system, 08:23 they were elementary school teachers. 08:25 And so reading was a big part of our home. 08:29 I learned to read I think when I was five, 08:31 taught myself to read 08:32 because I had to read these books. 08:36 But my dad also ran a firewood business on the side 08:39 because teachers don't make a lot of money, 08:41 so you had to do something to make ends meet. 08:43 And so life for us was church, school 08:47 and working at home either in the garden, in the house 08:50 or helping with firewood there was a lot of work. 08:53 Of course, time still to build forts 08:54 and play cowboys and Indians 08:56 but it was a wonderful childhood. 08:59 And the religious factor was big 09:02 because we were not only taught about God at home 09:05 but also at church and at school 09:07 because it was a Christian school and-- 09:09 Exactly. 09:10 Being a learner as to reader I took to that very naturally. 09:15 We always had lots of books in the house and I read avidly. 09:18 And so reading about the Bible first in the Bible story books 09:22 and then in my later teen years the Bible itself. 09:26 I could even see you as there in school 09:29 and you're-- of course a student 09:30 but then they have to do things 09:33 after the other kids go home to close up to school. 09:36 I could see you with the books somewhere just saying okay-- 09:38 Oh, yeah, sitting in the corner and at recess. 09:41 Oh, at recess too. 09:42 Yeah, because I was very shy. Okay. 09:44 And so a book was always my good companion. 09:47 You know, sitting alone on the playground 09:49 reading was a very typical scene for me. 09:51 Oh. Yeah. 09:53 I just want to hug that kid 09:54 because even when you said that and that was okay. 09:58 There is a part of me that says I'm wondering if your-- 10:00 in your journey that was always okay. 10:03 No, it wasn't. 10:05 I think that was way to hide because I-- 10:11 I knew I was never one of the cool kids 10:13 so I compensated by being smart 10:16 and academic accomplishment 10:18 was almost as good as being cool. 10:20 Yeah. Yeah. 10:22 I could that even now, you know. 10:24 Because when-- even when you're walk in to church 10:26 because we go to the same church 10:28 and we also work together 10:29 is that if somebody has a project 10:31 and they needed to be laid out or they needed to be-- 10:34 they have the wow factors they will look at you. 10:37 Just like you know Fran can do it. 10:38 Because being busy and working hard 10:41 is makes me feel important 10:43 and being important is almost just good 10:45 as being having intimacy with other people. 10:49 It satisfies that need somehow almost 10:52 and so I've used that-- 10:53 I've discovered as a substitute most of my life. 10:56 So on your journey 10:57 when we talk about recovery on this program 11:00 at one point would you have related to that at all? 11:04 No, no, I didn't think I had any problems. 11:08 I love that. 11:09 When you even said that, first I was just like, oh, man. 11:13 You know knowing that if the Bible is true, 11:16 that we all are on this journey, 11:18 all in need of the blood of Christ. 11:20 So when you said that I was just thinking 11:21 what does that-- what is God going to reveal to her? 11:25 And so I would like you to talk about 11:28 a little bit you're growing-- 11:30 you've got a good picture of your growing up, 11:33 maybe a few more stories to kind of solidify that 11:36 but then where did God reach you to say 11:40 maybe there is an issue? 11:41 And what does that issue look like? 11:42 Yeah, I'm glad to share, it's important. 11:44 I was baptized I think when I was seven 11:47 and it came from a book again. 11:49 I was allowed to stay home one Sabbath afternoon 11:51 when the family went for a walk 11:53 and I was reading the story of Jesus crucifixion 11:56 in my little Bible storybook and it moved to me deeply, 11:59 to see that someone so kind was treated so cruelly. 12:03 I didn't understand the cause, but I love Him. 12:07 And so I was baptized at seven 12:09 and I was the sincere following of God. 12:13 My heart has been after Him my whole life. 12:16 And in high school I was in-- 12:18 you know, avid Bible student then I preached my first sermon 12:21 I think when I was a sophomore in high school. 12:25 And you can preach some sermons? 12:26 Yeah, I still preach now. 12:28 I love it. Yeah, thank you. 12:30 And-- and I was never one of the kids who rebelled. 12:35 I didn't want to disappoint my parents or anybody else. 12:37 Somebody-- this is just for you guys, 12:39 I thought this is the funniest thing ever. 12:42 Fran and I in church 12:43 and we both given our testimony on the same day 12:45 which is ridiculous because you know-- 12:47 About repentance. About repentance. 12:50 But it's so different and so somebody says to Fran, 12:53 do you ever wish you had like a story 12:55 like Cheri that you rebelled? 12:56 And she said, no. 12:59 Do you remember that? So painful. 13:00 Yeah, well even who would wish that? 13:03 You know, it's like I'm dealing 13:04 with my own stuff and it's different. 13:05 But who would want to be a like heroin addict 13:07 and homeless and all that kind of stuff. 13:09 Oh, and I don't like pain. 13:10 Okay, but your response I just cracked up 13:13 because I thought that was just the funniest thing. 13:16 So and I love what you say because this is, it's not like, 13:21 it's all of your journey with God was very rich 13:25 and very real, your amount of experiences 13:28 and what you would put out-- put on paper the research 13:31 that you did as far as diving into these stories 13:35 and what the Bible meant by this or that. 13:37 I mean when you if-- when you did a sermon 13:40 I could tell that I mean the original language 13:43 you searched out and all that kind of stuff-- 13:45 But after research. 13:46 All of that was very, very real. 13:48 Very from the-- 13:50 I was gonna say from the heart, that is from the head. 13:52 Yeah, I think it's from-- well and it touches me-- 13:54 I see its beauty and its depth 13:56 and its poignancy and those things 14:00 and it touches me that way. 14:03 I'll share with you a couple of faith crisis 14:05 that occurred for me. 14:07 I want my-- shortly after Bob and I were married 14:09 he took a job that required him to travel quite a bit, 14:11 so I was home alone. 14:12 And for some reason 14:13 I took to reading stories like drama in real life 14:16 and the Readers Digest just horrible stories 14:20 and it would left to me just terrified, 14:23 especially I've been alone at night. 14:24 So I'll lay in bed at night rigid with fear 14:27 just listening to the sounds of the house and-- Yeah. 14:30 And some-- during that time somehow subconsciously 14:36 I guess I came to the conclusion 14:38 that if I couldn't trust God with my physical safety, 14:40 what good is He? 14:42 And I wasn't aware of it and I continued my regular, 14:46 you know, daily Bible study 14:47 and prayer and church activities, 14:50 teaching Bible classes and all of that 14:52 but I was in a spiritual desert for years. 14:55 So you started to separate that sense of-- 14:59 you know, I am okay 15:00 and the world is safe to where I am not okay. 15:04 And I couldn't face that it's not safe. 15:07 I think I masked that, but I also didn't trust Him 15:12 then because if I can't trust Him 15:13 to protect me what good is He? 15:15 Right. 15:16 That lasted for years and I finally-- 15:19 the key turning point for me was a women's seminar I went to 15:22 and there's that song I forget the name of it 15:25 but it's about when you can't trace His hand, 15:29 when you can't see His plan trust His heart. 15:32 And it made me realize 15:35 I can trust Him even when things aren't okay. 15:38 That was big, that was one key one. 15:42 And then I would love you know, it's really tough 15:45 to fully flush out or color those moments 15:48 because those moments are so significant. 15:50 If somebody can look at in a spiritual sense 15:54 that you change, you came back towards God. 15:58 Yeah, yeah it was the key lesson 16:00 that He can trusted even when things aren't good. 16:02 Yeah. 16:04 Another really big one was about ten years ago 16:09 at this point I had been teaching 16:11 Bible classes for 25 years or so very deep Bible student. 16:18 And I'm just love studying the Bible hours every week. 16:24 And I went to camp meeting with a friend 16:29 and she said to me, oh, let's just talk about God. 16:34 And I thought okay. 16:39 I mean, I'm glad to talk with you about 16:41 all these wonderful things I'm learning in the Bible. 16:43 Right. I love to talk about that. 16:45 All this research. 16:46 But she wants to talk about God like, 16:48 let's just talk about God. 16:50 I'm thinking, I don't have anything to say. 16:55 Explain that because to me 16:57 I think that there are so many people 16:59 watching right now don't know exactly what you're saying. 17:01 Yeah. Look I don't-- 17:03 What do you mean? I haven't encountered Him. 17:07 I don't-- haven't seen Him. 17:08 I can tell you thoughts about Him, 17:11 I can tell you how beautiful the Bible is, 17:14 how moving its messages but I haven't encountered Him. 17:19 I don't find Him doing anything directly in my life. 17:25 It's not a personal thing? It is not at all. 17:27 I mean, no, it is not. And at that point-- 17:34 Even saying that, because to me 17:36 I think the first time I realized for one 17:41 how the vulnerability we've been saying 17:43 that out loud even to yourself 17:45 and especially as intellectual as you are, 17:51 knowing that disconnect. 17:52 I mean, that's very much a disconnect. 17:54 Is that being able to say 17:57 that must have cost somewhat of a crisis. 18:00 And being able to say to someone 18:02 is that I don't want to really kind of be right here 18:05 because that's too vulnerable and I don't want to say to you 18:07 that I can't just talk about God. 18:10 Yeah, it was-- 18:11 I remember during that time going to camp meeting every day 18:15 and coming home and just crying 18:17 uncontrollably on the drive home 18:19 and I had no idea why, no idea what was going on. 18:23 But one thing I knew is that I needed to see Him. 18:27 And I started asking Him that I needed to see You. 18:30 It's got to be something real, not just the book. 18:33 At the same time and I don't know 18:36 if I've ever asked you this, at the same time 18:38 I know that you were really doing some deep studies 18:42 or at least having discussions with folks 18:45 that were incredible in your life, 18:47 that didn't-- that threw God away 18:50 wrote a book on now kind of even be an atheist 18:54 so that the Bible is not real. 18:55 So I mean, you really were doing 18:56 some great stuff in that sense. 18:59 Did that-- did that play a part in this journey for you? 19:05 That actually came a little later. 19:07 So this is second big crisis. Okay. 19:10 But the outcome of this one was that God answered that prayer, 19:16 I need to see You. 19:17 And what I began to see was during my times in the Bible, 19:21 He would give me I think of them as revelations 19:27 just little insights big to me of Himself. 19:33 And His love 19:37 and His incredible wisdom in the way 19:40 He dealt with people and just the gentle kindness 19:44 and sometimes I mean it's just so moving it makes me cry. 19:48 He still does those things. Amen. 19:50 So that was a big and that was ten years ago. 19:53 But now the one you were just referring to 19:55 is the one I'm in the middle of right now. 19:58 And this one is more difficult 20:00 and seems to be talking much longer for Him 20:02 to get through to me. 20:04 What came about there was, I've been-- 20:06 But if you believe though there when you making that statement 20:10 I want to just say to anybody listening to or, 20:13 you know, in the cafe is that you know, 20:17 there are when God gets closer and closer and closer 20:20 to our heart that some things I think do you seem like 20:24 they take longer but God said, 20:26 this is actually when I get through here, 20:30 you were just gonna so feel the warmth of who I am. 20:33 Not only understand My heart and understand My love for you 20:36 and understand that gentleness 20:38 but will be so close that you actually feel the warmth of it. 20:41 And so I think it is those layers that in our healing, 20:45 you know, like mine is way different than yours way, 20:48 you know, that I just have to trust 20:50 that I'm not gonna slam heroin tomorrow that's like. 20:53 Do you know what I mean it's so different? 20:55 But I-- even when you say that I just love, 21:00 you know, that is taken a while. 21:01 It does take-- yeah, I think it takes a while 21:03 and exactly surprised me. 21:04 Would you call yourself because I've always thought, 21:07 you know, would you call yourself, 21:11 you know, intellectual, 21:12 workaholic, religious addiction. 21:14 I mean what would you say 21:15 that if somebody had to put label on any of the stuff? 21:19 Would you put any of those recovery 21:21 kind of labels on at this point? 21:24 What I've come to realize 21:25 is that I have a very strong need for approval. 21:28 So it's approval addiction I don't know, 21:30 it manifest itself in that I'm a workaholic. 21:33 Okay, so let's go back to the now these crisis. 21:36 Yeah. What started it? 21:39 What started it is that about three year-- 21:42 longer than that, five years ago or so 21:43 I started doing Bible studies 21:45 outside the church. 21:48 And my first was with a beautiful woman in her 60s 21:51 who was had been a prostitute and now she in her home 21:55 she has like all the neighborhood teens 21:57 are over her place all the time and there is-- 21:59 house is filled with smoke and we got the Bible out 22:02 and she is just crying over it and it's so beautiful. 22:05 And she passed away before we finished but-- 22:09 You do have studies with people 22:10 that are so just emotionally trash and addiction. 22:14 Yeah, where did this come from? I know. 22:16 How does God come up with putting me with them 22:18 I don't know what it is? But He's done it several times. 22:21 And more-- I've seen it. 22:22 Yeah, well and more recently you've seen the ones 22:24 that I've been studying with a group of men and women 22:27 who are currently addicts even or former addicts 22:32 and many of them are ex-cons. 22:35 And all kinds of abuse backgrounds 22:37 and very difficult-- 22:38 They walk into Bible study and you can smell pot. 22:42 She can smell pot. Oh, sorry. 22:44 I don't have a clue. So, I'm sorry, that's true. 22:49 I don't have a clue, yeah. 22:51 So when that started you having these studies-- 22:53 Yeah, and I study-- Outside the church. 22:55 I studied with one woman first say for a year 22:59 and then she was baptized 23:00 and she wanted to reach out to others like her. 23:03 And so we started inviting them in 23:06 and sometimes we would do 23:07 in like baby showers with this out risk moms 23:09 and then they would join our Bible study 23:11 and it's been awesome. 23:12 But baby showers for out risk moms. 23:14 In our church they-- what they would do 23:17 is they would put a ad in the paper. 23:19 If you are in this area and you don't have anyone 23:23 to help you deliver this baby just call us and they would be, 23:27 you know one was-- this is horrible-- 23:28 Craig's list. Craig's list. 23:29 Horrible meth addict, she had, you know, 23:32 I don't want to say too much just because you know 23:34 I'm not at privilege to say 23:36 but I mean all of this kind of stuff having these babies 23:39 that are born into these situations. 23:40 And they're doing baby showers and getting beds 23:43 and blankets and bottles and all that kind of stuff. 23:45 And they would go to the hospital on the day 23:46 the babies deliver and sit there 23:48 where they're doing labor-- it's just been great. 23:50 It's just beautiful and really it's beautiful. 23:53 And for me I never been loved or nurtured 23:56 I just-- there were times I watched you guys 23:58 just thinking that how incredible 24:01 what you are offering to them. 24:03 Yeah. And at the same time-- 24:05 At the same time there is a problem. 24:08 So it came-- it became very clear to me 24:10 one evening we were doing Bible study 24:13 and I think they were about 24:14 10 people in the room that night. 24:16 And we went around introducing because lots were new 24:18 and I realized that I was the only one in the room, 24:22 not only that had no tattoos or body piercings but had no-- 24:26 We can get you on, no I'm sorry. 24:29 But had no background with any sort of chemical addiction, 24:33 no criminal record, no abuse background nothing. 24:37 I was the only one in the room. 24:39 And I was glad that they were there 24:41 to seeking God that was wonderful. 24:45 But then we started the Bible study 24:47 and I watched them glaze over. 24:51 And it made me realize 24:53 that what I was trying to communicate to them 24:56 wasn't coming across as relevant. 24:59 And I when I talked to them about God's love 25:02 it sounded hollow even to me. 25:05 Wow. 25:06 And I could tell that it was because inside 25:09 I didn't have a deep personal understanding of God's love. 25:15 I hadn't experienced it myself. 25:16 So the joy and the hope of that couldn't come through. 25:20 And there was a quote in Steps to Christ, 25:24 we were starting to work on that book about that time. 25:27 And so immersed in the messages of the book 25:30 and experiencing that was-- 25:33 God was working on me through that. 25:35 There is one quote in that book that says, 25:37 "That there can be no deep-seated 25:41 love for Jesus in our heart 25:43 that doesn't realize its own need." 25:46 That's huge. Yeah. 25:48 And what's really huge about that is 25:50 because-- you know even as you talked about your life 25:54 is that there is no part of it 25:56 that you can point out that says, 25:57 I wasn't loved and cared for and I had all my needs met 26:01 and I was in the great church and all that kind of stuff. 26:04 And so now God is saying, 26:05 you know, Fran, what's your need for Me? 26:07 Yeah. Why do you need Me? 26:08 Why is the blood of Christ important to you? 26:12 It was at that time that you said, one thing 26:14 that was really strategic for me 26:17 and that was that when you realize 26:21 the extent of the damage you have caused 26:25 it will make a big difference. 26:27 And so I asked God at that time show me-- 26:29 Do you know, when I said that 26:31 I went home and cried for you? 26:33 And why I cried is because I thought, 26:36 you know-- my stuff is so out there 26:39 and the damage I caused is so out there 26:41 and I didn't have to-- and I'm looking at you 26:44 and I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable with this 26:48 but you're so gracious to folks and there is such a kindness 26:52 with who you are and that kind of stuff. 26:53 And I thought when she sees this, 26:56 she is gonna have to experience some pain. 26:58 And I just cried about that and I wanted to say 27:01 God, be gentle but then I don't 27:04 because I want-- I know that what you want, 27:06 what you saw for your whole life 27:08 is something that's very real. 27:10 And so, you know, whatever it takes to show her, her need. 27:15 She is asking for that right now. 27:16 Yeah. 27:17 And I'm-- so I asked Him, 27:20 show me and He has been showing. 27:24 I don't think He's done yet 27:26 but some of what I've began to see 27:27 is that I've been performance oriented most of my life. 27:35 It's that compensation for I'm not cool so I can be smart. 27:39 And I don't have-- 27:42 I fear I'm not having intimacy with anyone. 27:47 And so I've backed into work and being in control 27:53 because that's almost as good as intimacy. 27:56 So you researched more to better projects. 27:59 I run the project, I'm in-charge. 28:01 I'm in control and I worked hard 28:03 and you'll notice. 28:06 I talked with somebody that you work with not in-- 28:09 now I'm hoping that eventually you worked as fulltime for us 28:12 and we don't have to worry about sharing you with anyone. 28:15 But I talked with somebody that you worked with 28:18 and your real job and he said, no, I have to stay on my toes 28:23 because Fran is always on her toes. 28:25 And I mean, he really just said, you know, 28:27 I can't let up at all because she'd let's out. 28:31 Yeah, I don't, yeah. 28:32 And he said that with kindness. 28:34 Yeah. Yeah. 28:36 So gaining respect has been my substitute 28:41 for significance in intimacy 28:44 which I think are really things 28:45 that we're designed to need significance and intimacy-- 28:49 Can you share with-- 28:50 and this is kind of an odd thing 28:52 to share at this moment 28:53 but I thought about a story you told me about the prom. 28:58 Oh, yeah. 29:00 So I was a dorm student in high school 29:03 and attended a private Christian high school. 29:06 And my roommate stole my boyfriend on a music tour 29:12 and then just before the banquet 29:15 which is the equivalent in that school of a prom to seniors. 29:20 So obviously that's very painful 29:22 but I was in-charge of the banquet. 29:25 And so-- They were just attending. 29:27 They were just attending and though I experienced-- 29:32 not only did it give me something to immerse myself in 29:35 but I experienced during that banquet 29:37 the sense of power that I was in control 29:40 and I was doing something significant 29:42 and they were just sitting there, 29:43 looking at each other. 29:45 And it was, it was high. 29:48 And it taught me very deeply 29:51 that the being in control makes me feel significant. 29:56 And decreases the pain. 29:58 I don't have to deal with the pain, 29:59 I don't have to deal with loneliness, 30:01 I don't have to deal with any of that kind of stuff 30:03 and I totally can get fed from the power. 30:10 And it should be sitting in the cafeteria at a table 30:12 all by yourself and feeling like a reject. 30:16 So, you know, to me it's hard for me 30:19 to understand that kind of addictive response 30:24 because it so-- it so looks great. 30:27 Do you know what I mean? It looks great. 30:30 You know, the next person that wants a banquet 30:32 and they're gonna call you. 30:33 I mean, you know, nobody is even sees 30:35 the need with me or an addict 30:38 if you slam heroin, if you got drinking, 30:39 or your whatever it's more obvious. 30:42 And so to me as you-- it's social acceptable 30:46 and so as God is leading you into a place 30:48 to say you know what, I'm gonna try to undo this 30:52 because it's doing the same thing 30:53 that any other addict experiences, 30:56 even the same breakdown in your intimacy 31:00 and your family and your life 31:03 but you've got to see the damage. 31:06 And so now He's doing that with you. 31:09 I remember giving you-- telling you 31:11 one of my favorite books was Inside Out, 31:13 looking at kind of all of our stuff 31:15 and saying you know Fran, 31:17 this may be a book that you want to look at. 31:19 Yeah, that was a very important book for me. 31:21 One of the verses that the book references 31:24 was just pivotal for me in this journey. 31:26 It was-- I think it's in Isaiah that God says, 31:30 "My people have committed a double evil. 31:32 They have turned for me, the source of living water 31:35 and hew for themselves cisterns, 31:38 broken cisterns they cannot hold water." 31:41 It's the turning away is the first evil 31:44 to find a different substitute. 31:46 A different source. 31:47 A difference source for the thirst of the soul. 31:50 And for me the thirst was intimacy and significance 31:53 and I found a substitute outside of Him. 31:56 What was really tough for you, 32:01 probably most of you know or for anybody 32:04 that is actually incredible, 32:07 you know, intellectually and all that kind of stuff 32:09 is your cistern was very pretty good. 32:12 You know, you found a way that it hardly even leaked. 32:15 And one evidence of it came to me as-- 32:20 after you asked me that question was, 32:23 I had to admit that in my prayer time, 32:28 there is never any confession, almost never. 32:32 I couldn't think anything to confess. 32:34 I mean, occasionally I have like critical time 32:37 or sometimes I'm impatient. 32:39 I've never seen it. 32:41 And yeah, I mean and so once in a while 32:43 there is some small thing to confess 32:45 but generally there is not. 32:47 And for-- if I were honest 32:49 I would have to admit that for me 32:52 the cross fell like overkill. 32:54 Wow. 32:56 So what do you mean by that, the cross fell like overkill? 32:59 Like, did you have to actually go that far? 33:02 God had to pour out all of heaven 33:04 and Jesus had to die because I'm sometimes impatient. 33:08 You got to be kidding? 33:09 Wow, wow. That's worth it. 33:11 I mean, I don't think I had ever said that 33:13 to myself consciously 33:15 but when I was really honest looking inside 33:19 that's what I saw, was for my hell is that. 33:24 So where did he go from there? 33:27 I mean, you know, where did he go 33:29 from there was like God, can you show me, 33:31 why it's not overkill? 33:32 Can you show me? 33:33 Yeah. That's why that-- 33:35 Can I survive when You show it to me? 33:37 That's why that question you asked was so important. 33:41 What's the extent of the damage You've caused? 33:44 And when I asked God, He showed me things like 33:48 the damage I had caused to my kids 33:49 because I'm so performance oriented 33:52 that's the way I raised them. 33:54 And for them to relate to God 33:57 because of that has been very difficult from my side. 34:00 He completely rebelled, turned completely against God. 34:05 And it took for him a trip into alcoholism 34:08 and recovery through a day 34:10 before he finally connected with the God 34:12 that was he could view as for Him. 34:15 That's incredible, even for you to see 34:19 how painful was that, to think that maybe my escape 34:24 what I used to survive actually almost killed him. 34:29 Yeah, it's-- what I'm finding honestly 34:34 is that it's taking God a while to touch me 34:37 emotionally with this stuff. 34:39 There still a numbness in here that He's having to work on. 34:43 I don't think He is through showing me. 34:45 But seeing James struggle like 34:47 that it's been very, very difficult. 34:50 For Bob it's also a big revelation 34:54 as you heard earlier Bob's got his own journey of pain 34:58 but I didn't know it and didn't understand at all 35:01 the issues that I saw. 35:03 From me it just looked 35:04 that he had a bad attitude and a bad temper. 35:06 And so straighten up and start being a victim 35:09 there was I think I added to his burden 35:14 because of what I was at. 35:17 And what I love about God because some of the stuff 35:21 that God does have to show us in our journey, 35:24 in our denial and the fact that for one-- for a little girl 35:29 you really did find something that worked-- it worked well. 35:32 I didn't have to deal with the pain of-- 35:34 of not being the cool kid and all that kind of stuff 35:37 or you know, that it worked so well. 35:39 But then the God says, 35:40 if you truly do want to recover, 35:42 if you truly do want to connect with me 35:44 I have to expose the stuff, I have to be able to do that. 35:49 And I think it breaks His heart when He has to do that for us. 35:52 I think so. 35:54 You know, for me it's been a huge attack on-- 36:00 I call it an attack it feels that way, 36:02 on my sense of integrity 36:04 because everything that I have thought 36:07 I was a deep follower of God and very sincere in my faith 36:12 and all tshose things 36:13 looks like it's not real if it's just fake. 36:18 I mean there is no real connection with him, 36:19 that's not vital. 36:20 If I have nothing to say to anyone 36:24 who has got a serious need 36:26 because I haven't encountered it myself, 36:29 to me this is a huge integrity issue. 36:31 And it challenges everything I thought I was. 36:36 What's gonna be interesting is 36:38 when He weaves our back together 36:40 and shows you that you've always had 36:42 that heart for Him and that heart for people 36:44 and the love for your child 36:46 so that your addiction has disconnected you on some level 36:50 but it was very real journey. 36:52 And you said that even before is that when-- 36:54 I in the midst of this journey I did feel the presence of God 36:57 and I did feel love, I did feel all that 37:00 and so I think that on the other side 37:02 is that that we've been back together. 37:04 But in addiction and studying you know, 37:09 there are times was-- with people 37:10 that have those cleaner addictions, 37:13 workaholism or religious addictions or perfectionism, 37:16 that performance addictions, 37:18 approval addiction is that we look at those are so clean 37:22 but when they actually look at family dynamics, 37:25 the family dynamics are the same as an addict, 37:29 as an alcoholic that as the-- you know, 37:31 because the woes and the dysfunction 37:33 and that disconnect intimately 37:36 and our intimacies are the same. 37:37 Same style. 37:38 And so that's what God is showing you now. 37:40 Yeah, and it's the same thing, 37:42 the same problem of substituting one thing 37:45 for the only thing that can ever satisfy 37:47 what's needed inside you. 37:49 I mean, I'm substituting you are substituting, 37:52 everybody is substituting something for God 37:55 and He is the only one that can fill it. 37:57 And what God is asking us for really a connection with Him 38:00 and then a connection with each other. 38:02 That what we seek in order to protect us on intimate level 38:06 we're actually seeking in a real sense from Him. 38:10 That's right. That's absolutely right. 38:12 You know, what's to me I just got to say, 38:14 we're gonna open it up for questions 38:16 but I just love you. 38:17 I love your journey and I know it's not easy 38:20 and for people that have in their mind 38:23 really strive to do the right thing 38:26 and be right and not act out 38:28 and not do all that kind of stuff 38:30 it's really tough when you look at possibly 38:35 how you did it was done addictively 38:38 and allowing God to gently come in 38:41 and start to say, this is how you're gonna get freedom. 38:45 This is how you're gonna get real connection. 38:47 Or even show you what's actually inside. 38:51 I've noticed that a lot of folks 38:52 aren't really comfortable with that 38:53 and I didn't really get it at first 38:55 because it felt like sort of wallowing and something 38:58 but if you don't see what's going on 39:01 you know, this all that feels no need 39:04 can have no deep-seated love for Jesus. 39:05 You've got to see what's really going on inside 39:08 if He's ever gonna be able to draw you 39:09 to His solution for it. 39:14 I just think that's so right on, it's so spot on. 39:17 It's a hard thing to do though. It is hard. 39:19 We're gonna open it for questions. 39:20 I know that Karen, you had a question. 39:23 Yes, my name is Karen Owen and my journey is somewhat like 39:27 yours except I wasn't born-- 39:29 I didn't come into Adventist faith-- 39:31 I came into with Adventist faith 39:32 and wasn't born an Adventist. 39:34 And my toughest journey has been accepting 39:37 that God loves me, 39:38 I'm a performance person too you know, 39:41 what people see is very important to me. 39:44 And I always wanted to be loved but never felt I was loved. 39:48 And so when I come to God 39:50 you know, my thing is does He really love me? 39:53 I know He says that, how are you adjusting 39:55 to changing from this performance 39:58 into letting God be the one 40:00 who motivates you into what you do 40:02 because of His love for you? 40:04 How do you change over to that? 40:08 You know, for me I think what it's been 40:10 is that everyday now, 40:15 I'm taking everything to Him and asking Him, 40:19 what am I doing, what do you see inside? 40:22 Show me what you see? 40:24 And He does and that if-- 40:28 like going for a walk with Him every morning 40:32 and taking those things to Him 40:34 and things I back with, by the end of my walk, 40:36 I sometimes come back in tears because He is so kind, 40:40 but He is so deep at what He shows 40:42 and so right on and I'm learning to love Him 40:48 and feel to His love just by communicating with Him. 40:52 That's how it's working for me. 40:54 I got to tell you Karen, 40:55 to you is there is something else 40:56 that I have seen along this journey 40:57 because I have gotten 40:58 to be a part of the journey with Fran, 41:00 is that she has been vulnerable and shared it with us. 41:05 They shared-- she shared it with the people 41:07 that she loves at church, has kind of opened up. 41:10 And so now when I say, oh, man, 41:13 because she is just changed, she is brilliant. 41:16 We will have a project and the project is great 41:20 and she steps in and does a few things 41:23 and it's not only great it's brilliant, 41:24 it's off the chart. 41:26 And I'll say great job. 41:27 And someone will say that's like handing her a joint. 41:30 That's like giving her some pot, you know. 41:32 It's like don't tell her great job, 41:33 she a workaholic. 41:35 And so but it actually come out almost 41:38 as a, a little bit of a joke 41:40 that we are we are allowed into her space, 41:43 we are allowed in to that part of her 41:46 and I don't know if it helps you to know that, 41:50 you know, we can joke around about it, 41:51 you're okay nobody is moving away from you. 41:53 Yeah, and what you're reference to 41:55 I think also is our Bible study group at church, 41:58 we've been-- this is been really important 42:01 and I think it's really relevant topic about 42:04 social support that, this Bible study group 42:07 we are going through that inside out book together 42:11 and its no but no teacher 42:14 so I don't come to class with lesson plan anymore 42:16 with all my research done 42:18 and ready to teach everyone, we don't do that. 42:21 We come and we just share venerably and-- 42:25 We have people that join us online all over the world. 42:28 Yeah, even-- yeah, 42:29 And for-- 42:30 for you they come without a lesson plan that is huge. 42:34 I never do that, I'm never, not prepared. 42:37 I'm here with no script today which is also big. 42:40 No script. 42:41 No script and what was really funny to me 42:44 cracked me up, she sent me a script, 42:46 you know, you hear some stuff what do you thinking? 42:49 And today she comes and she says did you read it? 42:53 I say, no. 42:54 She is like you didn't even read it? 42:56 And so it is really funny 42:58 'cause God is pressing in all kind of areas. 43:01 Yeah, and it's really been good 43:03 because the thing I'm discovering 43:04 is that I really need the other people-- 43:07 whole healing thing happens when we share 43:10 and we need Him working 43:13 and that happens in communities it seems. 43:16 And with performance addictions, 43:18 with approval addiction, one other the things 43:20 that I think that God is able to show 43:23 is that you are delightful. 43:25 You know, what I mean from prom-- 43:26 Even if I'm not prepared. 43:27 Even if you're not prepared or even if I'm not in-charge 43:29 or even if don't know the answer you're delightful 43:32 and the people around you enjoy that about you. 43:35 So I think that in our-- 43:36 and the healing part of it is first being vulnerable, 43:39 saying it out load to somebody to God in a twelve-step to God 43:43 and then another human being that this is what I deal with 43:46 and these performance addictions 43:49 are harder to say out lot 43:50 because we want to say an addict wants to say, 43:52 oh, get over it. 43:53 You're like fine. 43:54 That only-- have you ever even lied? 43:56 You know, we want to do that to you, 43:57 don't let us do that to you. 43:59 This is a really intense deep heart issue. 44:04 It has protected you for a long time 44:06 to the determinant of your intimate-- 44:08 intimacy with those around you and God misses you, misses you. 44:13 You don't have to perform for Him. 44:15 So I have to tell you what God told me 44:18 the other day when I went walking with Him. 44:21 So I asked Him, how do I see more of Your love? 44:27 And immediately the answer was, look at people. 44:32 And so I'm asking Him well why? 44:34 And He says, look in their eyes and see the pain. 44:44 Don't dissenter yourself from that. 44:47 What's really interesting is in the Bible study 44:50 that you run now, there were some tragedies 44:54 that happened there 44:55 and you step in more real into the room. 44:59 Yeah, one of our girls struggled with anger, drugs, 45:06 she had been abused as a child 45:07 and she took her own life a few months ago 45:11 and its been terribly difficult for the whole group 45:17 and we have others that are really struggling 45:20 that seems to be contagious I don't know, 45:22 but that just downwards spirals amongst the group. 45:27 And at that point-- that because I know the way 45:30 you're dealing with as far as your own addictive 45:34 response to pain is that they-- 45:36 that you weren't willing to go back to that 45:39 and just get more prepared and walk in the group. 45:41 You wanted to be more real in walking the group. 45:43 So you really did say God, 45:46 "That I'm not on familiar ground here 45:49 but help me to walk in, 45:50 give something to actually offer." 45:52 Yeah, everything now feels that way to me. 45:55 I feel like I'm instead of coming 45:59 prepared with tons of research 46:00 I'm coming with my heart wide open. 46:03 I love that, you know, because I-- it's different 46:07 but I think that that we actually get 46:09 to hangout with you in a better way 46:13 and even though your preparation is genius. 46:16 Yeah. I love that too. 46:17 So I'm now-- Bob, this Bob McKain, 46:21 married to Fran and you had a question? 46:25 So you know the thing 46:26 that we used to say about Fran is that, 46:28 you know, she is practically perfect 46:30 and you know, living with her all the time, 46:32 you know, the one thing I just have to ask is that, 46:34 you know, see is that you know, 46:36 she is still engages in the workaholism. 46:40 You know, it just-- it didn't like just go away. 46:43 So, you know, how you're dealing with that? 46:47 Yeah, you know-- And this is from your husband. 46:49 Yeah, it's really true that sort of like 46:51 asking Cheri was still doing heroin hits. 46:53 Because it's really true. 46:54 I mean even working on these books to me 46:57 was a huge challenge 47:00 because dead lines were looming 47:03 and I mean it was 80 hours a week or more 47:06 to get those books finished. 47:08 Well, you know, that's definitely my addiction. 47:11 So what I love and like what you said 47:14 you're in the middle of the process, 47:15 so in the middle of the process 47:17 it's like I think that you will see-- 47:19 you'll begin to even set boundaries on us 47:21 and deadlines and that kind of stuff, 47:23 hopefully not this week 47:26 because you know, we have some deadlines. 47:28 Like I had two hours of sleep last night. 47:30 I know, but what's really hard 47:32 I think for you more so than me as people understand 47:35 when I say oh, I can't drink, 47:36 I can't use and I can't do drugs 47:38 but with you when they said you can't finish their project, 47:41 they not gonna understand this much. 47:43 So I think it's a little bit tougher 47:45 with an approval or performance addiction 47:47 because, everybody wants you to do it. 47:52 It is, it's true and I'm actually 47:54 even working with the counselor right now, 47:56 to try get deeper into, why do I keep doing this? 47:59 Yeah. 48:00 You know, its not-- I think there is approval addiction 48:04 is definitely a piece of it and I can see the roots of that 48:07 but I'm also learning that I have a problem 48:10 setting boundaries for myself inside. 48:12 Exactly. Inside boundaries. 48:14 Shut the computer off at nine and go to bed. 48:16 Right. 48:17 What's-- we're gonna ahead and take a break and come back 48:21 and I want to ask you a couple questions about that 48:23 if you would join me for the close that would be great. 48:27 But ask you a couple questions about that 48:28 because this is a tough one to switchover 48:32 and I want to ask you, why-- why even do it? 48:36 And it's a lot of work. 48:37 And so we're gonna come back, 48:38 if you have one of these approval addictions 48:40 or performance additions know that God misses you 48:44 and you can set boundaries 48:45 and you can do all that kind of stuff. 48:47 Join us for the close because I think that 48:50 well, Fran has to say about why work so hard 48:53 it's gonna be good stuff. |
Revised 2015-02-05