Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Angelia Waite
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000126B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:12 Welcome back, you know, if you missed the first half, 00:16 we're talking about to a couple, 00:19 Jay and Angelia 00:20 that one day everything's different. 00:26 You walk into the backyard, Angelia, and your son, 00:30 your baby is in the bottom of the pool. 00:33 And, you know, you talked about that 00:35 and your other son having to jump in, 00:39 he just couldn't breathe and how that happened 00:41 but you know Jay, there was one point 00:43 where you were called at work. 00:48 I was on my way home and I had to pull up 00:51 to a stop sign and the stop signs 00:54 and square side of my house, it was not a corner lot, 00:56 but I could plainly see there's no trees 00:58 or anything right there. 00:59 And from where I am ten cars back 01:01 in some traffic going through a four way stop 01:05 I could plainly see there's a helicopter in my side yard 01:08 and it's right in the half way in the grass over there 01:10 next to the Baptist Church, and I realized suddenly 01:15 that there my whole house was a bevy of activity. 01:18 There was a lot of people at my house, 01:19 and I did not understand it but I... 01:22 just like she said, it slowly turns in you 01:25 where you realize. 01:26 I didn't know what would happen but something bad had happened, 01:28 and I commenced to honk the horn 01:30 and try to race around people and I finally got through, 01:33 couldn't pull in the front yard 01:34 because there was a fire truck in the front yard, 01:36 drove through the ditch, pulled up beside somebody... 01:38 So this is not that somebody called you 01:40 and you were prepped for this, 01:42 is it you were on your way home? 01:44 That's right, I showed up in the middle of it 01:46 while it's still kind of happening. 01:48 And what I see is there's an ambulance there 01:52 and I pull up into the front yard. 01:53 And I found that my son had drowned from some young lady 01:57 who worked with the first responder 01:59 and she ran by I said, "What has happened," 02:01 and she just looked at me and she goes, 02:03 "It's a drowning." 02:04 And that's how and then 02:07 but I didn't know who it was yet 02:08 and I was really emotional at that time. 02:10 Right. Right. 02:11 And so I ran around to the backyard 02:14 where the pool is where most of the attention 02:16 seems to be heading 02:17 and by that time they've grabbed my son 02:20 from my other son and Angelia 02:23 and they ran him to the ambulance 02:26 to resuscitate him and to work on him 02:29 and hook him up and so they could get 02:30 some input from the hospital. 02:32 So I ran into the backyard 02:33 and I know this sounds incredibly strange, 02:35 there was nobody back there with my wife and my children. 02:38 And she was there by herself in a puddle up on some stairs. 02:45 And she didn't want me to stay there ten seconds. 02:47 She needed me to move back to the ambulance 02:49 so that I could do something to help my son, right. 02:52 And in my family I'm kind of seen that way 02:55 since I'm a veterinarian that something 02:57 that I could bring something good to it. 02:58 That's what was on her plate and she told me, 03:01 "I'll be fine, you go find out what's going on." 03:04 So I run around and sure enough there's my son Ramsey 03:08 on the table in there and strange beyond all belief, 03:11 ma'am, there's nobody with him. 03:13 I think he has, 03:15 they have quit resuscitation on him. 03:21 And so I take an opportunity right behind that ambulance 03:25 to get some praying 03:26 and I evidently drew quite a crowd. 03:29 I got some I wanted for Jesus behind that ambulance. 03:33 Because when you say, you know, I'm praying, 03:34 this is not a silent prayer, this is not... 03:36 Oh, no. 03:38 You know, something that you have heard 03:39 in church every week. 03:41 This is that God... 03:43 Yeah, this is something like this. 03:45 You're the creator and you made my son. 03:48 You know what he needs now and I need you for him now. 03:55 Yes. You could fix it. 03:57 It's not too late. It's not too late. 04:01 That's the kind of prayer I came up with 04:03 and I was not gracious in it either. 04:05 I mean I was pretty loud just like you think. 04:07 And about the time 04:10 that I'm getting finished with my praying, 04:11 I think I had a good two minute go at it. 04:13 Somebody came in, and grabbed my son 04:15 and headed him to the helicopter. 04:18 And I ran beside them to get into the helicopter. 04:21 My opinion was that he was gone 04:23 and then when the helicopter took off, 04:25 I went back to the ambulance 04:27 and jumped inside the ambulance, 04:29 and went through about 20 yards of EKG strip and he was gone. 04:35 Because he knew what to look for, 04:36 we knew what you were looking at. 04:38 Oh, yeah. 04:39 So as, you know, I am looking at both of you 04:42 and knowing that you're in the backyard, 04:45 you're in the ambulance. 04:48 What's the next, what do you do next? 04:52 When they start to take off, 04:54 we had a little bit of a confrontation 04:57 because I run to get my wife and my children 04:59 and I put them in this our van. 05:01 I'm going to the hospital 05:03 and they don't really want us to go. 05:06 They don't want us to drive off, 05:07 we're not in really good shape and they don't want us to go, 05:09 and I'm relatively forcefully got everybody off the van 05:13 and we took off, and then we drove 05:14 and then we prayed on the way, it was quite a scene. 05:17 Do you remember that? Yeah. Yes, I do. 05:19 And we begged, we pleaded, we did, 05:22 we did everything that you might imagine loudly, 05:27 loudly complete desperation. 05:30 The children are in the floorboard 05:32 I mean, we are... And they are... 05:34 Yes. 05:35 Pray kids, these kids are babies, 05:37 and they are praying for their brother 05:40 and it was unanswered, wasn't answered. 05:44 So you get to, you make it to the hospital, 05:48 I can't even, you know, even talking 05:50 and you said something, Jay, 05:51 to me one time is you said, I've got when you talk 05:56 and you see the pain in someone else. 05:58 It's almost like part of you wants to kind of step in 06:01 and even taken care of them because even sitting here 06:05 and talking with you now, 06:06 I don't know the next question to ask. 06:08 I don't even know, I know that, how did you, 06:11 how did you get there? 06:12 How did you, you know, 06:14 how did you make breakfast the next day or did you? 06:17 I mean what was the next part of your life 06:20 because you've got to come to grips with God, 06:23 were you not hearing us, is this your fault too. 06:26 Are you not pleased with us? Did we do something wrong? 06:30 All of those questions that you want to scream. 06:33 Did you scream? 06:35 I remember that night, we got back home I was, 06:39 you know, I... 06:40 they allowed me to hold him for hours probably four hours. 06:44 You know and our other children are watching 06:47 because I knew that was the last time. 06:49 You know, and so we had to gather our children up 06:53 and go back to the house. 06:55 Without Ramsey. 06:57 Without Ramsey, you know, 06:59 and I remember the day that Chandler, 07:01 the middle son said, "Mommy, can we just close his door." 07:05 The pain was so great, the loss was so deep. 07:10 "Can we just close his door, mommy." 07:12 And then, I remember the day that he also said, 07:15 "Can we just not put this picture here," 07:18 because he could not, he couldn't face it. 07:21 I can't look at this. 07:23 "I can't do this now, mommy, I can't do it now." 07:26 And, you know, you talk about breakfast, 07:28 I remember my, 07:30 I actually remember my children asking for a sandwich, 07:34 three hours later I remembered 07:37 because the depression was so great. 07:39 And if they didn't, I couldn't find my car keys, Cheri, 07:42 you know, we were functioning day to day step by step. 07:47 That first night that you're talking about we got back. 07:50 We got everybody settled 07:52 and I remember we're just weeping 07:55 and weeping and crying out to God laying in the bed 07:59 and I remember saying out loud. 08:02 Now, I love Jesus with every ounce of my being. 08:05 And I said, this, "How am I supposed to trust you now, 08:12 how can I trust you with my other two." 08:15 Now I'm telling you that shook us to the core. 08:21 Exactly. 08:22 And how do you get to the place where you say, 08:26 okay, I can trust you. 08:28 Well, I'm telling you, it took years, it took years. 08:31 And you know what, 08:33 I just have to thank you every single time you say that, 08:36 because I think that we do want things in a bow. 08:38 We do want things explained. 08:40 We do want to, you know, we want to say, you know, 08:43 if I do the right thing, 08:44 the right thing is going to happen. 08:45 Right. It's right. 08:47 And when it doesn't... 08:48 Yes. 08:50 Who do we blame and we tend to blame God. 08:53 And I think that I have to go back 08:56 and this is a crazy thing, 08:58 but I have to go back in my own life 09:00 and I have screamed at God and said, "You know, 09:02 why did you let this happen." 09:04 I mean, you know, and God said, "Man every day, 09:09 every day I try to intervene every day, you know, 09:12 we're in a world that's out of control, 09:14 "And I promise you, I did not let this happen. 09:18 This was not my plan for you. It is not my fault." 09:23 And so, you know, even with you Jay 09:26 that for you being a father everybody look to you 09:31 to do the right thing, to be able to intervene, 09:33 to make it better, 09:35 to come in and write everything that's wrong. 09:38 And in that moment knowing that, 09:40 "Man, there is nothing that I can do." 09:44 Yeah, there's nothing you could do, 09:47 but I did latch on to an idea pretty early. 09:51 And I told my children it wasn't their fault. 09:55 Amen. Yes. 09:56 You know they needed to know that. 09:58 Right, because everybody around the incident like this 10:01 pretty much engineers a method that they caused it. 10:04 I had a little girl call that talked to my son 10:07 50 minutes before my son drowned 10:09 and she thought it was her fault. 10:10 I talked to Ramsey on the phone and he said, 10:13 "I might get to be able to get in the pool today." 10:16 And when Jam Benjamin got back on the phone. 10:17 I didn't tell you, for her it was her fault. 10:20 It wasn't her fault. Yes. 10:22 It was no way her fault. Right. 10:23 For her she engineered that. 10:25 Is my son Benjamin, I could have been down there quicker. 10:28 I think I heard mom sooner. 10:29 I could have arrived quicker. I could have fixed him, yeah. 10:32 Jam Benjamin, if you could have done anything, 10:34 you could have saved your brother. 10:36 Yes. 10:37 And for Angelia, you love that boy, 10:41 this is not an outcome you desired, 10:43 you did not do this. 10:45 If you... 10:48 There's just no way that that fits with who you are 10:50 and how you cared for the boy, how much he means for you 10:53 and how much you're grieving now, 10:54 you didn't do it. 10:56 You just didn't do it. It has to be said a lot. 10:59 You know, when I heard from Angelia the first time 11:03 we talked is that you said that pretty quickly to her, 11:07 this is not your fault. 11:09 Yes. That's amazing. 11:11 But you didn't hear that for yourself, did you? 11:13 No, no I pretty sure was my fault. 11:15 Okay. 11:16 There was, I could have been there. 11:18 You know I spend my whole life day to day 11:20 since I'm a veterinarian. 11:22 I'm working really hard to save one pound kitten 11:25 happened to me yesterday, I was successful 11:28 and yet I was not afforded the opportunity, 11:30 and I was not successful with my own son. 11:33 There's a lot of inequity there that really will grind on you 11:35 over a long period of time. 11:37 And just like you said, you got all these big questions 11:40 just like you said it was whose fault is it, 11:42 why did it happen. 11:43 And the idea that all those would come 11:44 and you might scream those out. 11:46 You might but you'll scream them out 11:47 in really slow motion over about five years, 11:51 like you might spend this month worried. 11:54 Did God decide you were off the track 11:56 and would use your son to bring you back on? 11:58 You might play with that idea for a month or so 12:01 before it found that it had no value 12:04 that it wasn't true. 12:05 And what you say for a month or so, 12:07 we're nowhere in 12:08 and I think that we really want to wrap things up pretty quick. 12:11 We give people usually maybe a month 12:14 to four or five months to grieve. 12:16 I mean and it's crazy, I'm just saying 12:19 that I watch even in my own self 12:22 because I don't know what to say 12:23 is that we want someone to grieve 12:25 and kind of get back together be get back to yourself. 12:28 And what you're saying is you can't do that. 12:31 No, it's a journey to know where, 12:33 you're not headed back where you were. 12:35 You said it right off at the beginning 12:36 is that the lives were changed. 12:38 They are changed. 12:40 And you're on the path, you are not going to arrive 12:42 at the place that you were, 12:43 when I was sitting at that stop sign, 12:45 looked across the street and realized somebody, 12:46 or somebody, that something had happened in my house. 12:48 There's a helicopter in my yard. 12:49 I will not become that person again. 12:51 It is not, it's not on the menu. 12:53 So when you talk, when we're talking about this situation 12:57 and you're saying there were times 12:58 that I couldn't even get up and make a meal. 13:01 I'm trying to get some daily routine 13:03 and the depression is so great. 13:05 You're taking care of everybody else, 13:08 so that they know it's not your fault, 13:09 but you're feeling deeply wounded 13:11 that somehow you could have done something different. 13:13 So what is the grieving, 13:16 you know how is it different for men and women 13:18 because it's so different 13:20 and how do you even smile again, laugh again, 13:26 because I know that that happens. 13:29 You are one of the most joyful woman. 13:33 And you and I just haven't talked enough for me 13:36 to know that but even I can say that, you know, 13:38 this huge heartbreak, 13:40 the joy is back, all of that kind of stuff. 13:42 And so how do you go from that place 13:44 to standing back up and what does that look like, 13:46 and how is it different with the two of you? 13:50 I think for me while I was questioning everything, 13:55 how could this be happening. 13:57 One morning, just I'm just completely broken 14:02 and you know that still quiet voice speaks to you 14:07 and I'm just praying, I'm like, God, 14:09 anybody would be a better mother than me. 14:11 Just let me go to, just anybody to be... 14:14 Just please, I can't do this. 14:17 I can't walk this, you know. 14:19 Why didn't you show up if you are this good God? 14:24 Why am I finding myself here 14:26 and why didn't you intervene like you said, 14:29 and I will never forget the moment he said to me, 14:32 "What makes you think I wasn't there the whole time." 14:38 I'm omnipresent, that means he's everywhere all the time, 14:42 and if he weren't, 14:43 then things that happened in our life 14:45 would catch him off guard. 14:47 That's not the God we serve. 14:49 He is not unaware of our circumstance. 14:53 He's not, he's not unaware of your pain. 14:57 And so for me, knowing that 14:59 and taking myself back to the fall. 15:03 God never intended for us to bury children. 15:05 He never intended for cancer 15:07 to be part of a lot of people's journey, 15:10 and divorce and all of those things 15:13 that was never part of the plan. 15:15 Thanks Adam and Eve, 15:17 and because of that sin entered in 15:19 and because sin entered in, 15:21 now we bury children and parents and we suffer. 15:26 You know and so to look at that and say, 15:28 "God you caused that." 15:30 No, he said, good God, 15:32 I had to go all the way back to his attributes. 15:34 He is loving, he is kind, he is gentle, he loves me, 15:37 he means good towards me. 15:39 I plan evil for no one. There you go. 15:42 I mean... 15:43 All good things are from above, all good things, 15:45 and this was not good. 15:47 And so, you know, when we wrestle through that, 15:50 was it your fault or your fault or whose fault and you know 15:53 even people as Jay said, that weren't in our family, 15:56 they would say that, and I'm like, 15:58 "Nothing you could have done 16:00 would have stopped that moment." 16:02 I don't believe that. 16:03 I believe that moment was Ramsey's moment. 16:06 Because if anything could have been done in the natural, 16:08 believe me, we would have done it. 16:10 So we have to say, God, you saw it. 16:13 God, this is where we are, 16:15 now if there's anything left in me 16:18 that you can use, take it I want to give that... 16:20 So, Angelia, what I'm hearing you say is there was a moment 16:25 where you surrendered yourself back into the arms of God. 16:28 Yes. Yes. Okay, I trust you. 16:32 I may not be able to explain this 16:34 but I trust you. 16:35 I had to, Cheri, because who else could help me. 16:41 Where was I going to go for help? 16:43 He was the only place to go. 16:46 And so if he created me, if he knows all about me. 16:50 He knew that circumstance 16:52 and he knew the depth of my suffering 16:54 and he also knew that I didn't want to live. 16:57 He also saw the dark place 17:00 where I remember the day I said, 17:02 "If I can just get my clothes on, 17:04 by noon I will win." 17:08 Noon, if I can just not even shower, 17:12 not even brush my teeth, 17:13 if I can just get out of this bed, 17:16 I'm going to win. 17:18 And that is how I started digging out of that hole. 17:21 My God, you've got to take this hand 17:22 because I cannot walk this. 17:25 And he's done it everyday since. 17:28 He says, I want you to choose to live. 17:29 Choose life. Choose life. 17:31 But, you know, I was at a place 17:33 where I had to make a hard decision, 17:35 and you know where I was at that place 17:38 where I was about 18 months where I'm still going. 17:42 I don't want to do this. 17:45 I just could not stop saying that, 17:47 I don't, I can't and I don't. 17:49 And I remember as clear as I have ever heard a word 17:54 was that you have got to choose either bitter or better. 17:59 You will stay in this place bitter, 18:03 you would die in this place or you would choose life 18:06 and she's better. 18:08 Let me heal you. 18:09 And that is what I chose 18 months... 18:11 And so we're talking about, 18:14 I know just from friends that men and women 18:18 go through this process so differently. 18:20 You know, can you start out 18:22 with even you going into the pool. 18:25 And how did you get to the place 18:27 where you could say, okay, 18:30 I can step back into my relationship with God, 18:33 I can step back into my own skin. 18:35 And like you said you're talking years. 18:38 Took a very long time 18:40 but pretty quickly the next day I did what you said, 18:43 I was first washed with the emotion 18:47 of what it was like for him. 18:51 What he was feeling? Was he scared? Did he hurt? 18:57 So to work that out, I got in the pool, 19:01 I wasn't drowning myself but I wanted to lay down there 19:03 where he was so I did, I got right there, 19:05 I mean it was the next day. 19:06 And I'm at the bottom of the pool laying, 19:08 sitting at the spot where Angelia goes right there. 19:14 With my clothes on, I jumped in the pool. 19:16 And I get down to the bottom and I lay on the back and I go, 19:20 it's kind of quiet and the temperature is nice, 19:26 but as I look up, the Baptist Church 19:28 that is right next door, 19:29 the cross is reflecting on the top of the water. 19:33 It sounds crazy but it meant a lot to me 19:35 that Jesus was right there with him. 19:40 He wasn't by himself. Yeah. 19:42 I wasn't there but he was there. 19:44 Amen. 19:45 For my place that was really relief, 19:49 I thought he was by himself really. 19:51 I made it terrible in my mind but the truth is 19:53 that Jesus was there and he could, 19:57 and he could see that, it meant everything to me. 20:00 Amen. And I started right there. 20:01 And from the guy perspective, I had a tons of questions. 20:06 And I had a ton of anger 20:08 that's the way that I wanted this. 20:10 No question. 20:11 I'm good in that, and nobody consoled me 20:14 because they get the same questions is asked, 20:18 how could this happen. 20:19 How would you allow this to happen? 20:20 Why would you even let us have the child 20:22 if you're going to taken from us now? 20:24 What is the purpose of him being here? 20:25 Millions of hard questions but still being a guy, 20:28 I bundled that all up and didn't deal with it at all. 20:31 And so I decided I would function. 20:33 I would function, that I would go to work. 20:36 Yeah. I would go. 20:37 I would stop at the groceries because my wife, 20:39 it was very difficult for all of us. 20:41 She wasn't functioning yet, so I decided, 20:44 it just came to me 20:45 that the only good thing that I could do 20:47 out of all the hateful reactions I could have, 20:49 the only good thing that could be done 20:51 would be try to go to work. 20:53 Try to get the money in the bank, 20:54 try to pay that bill. 20:56 Try to bring the groceries home and I would cook dinner 20:59 and then we would sit in the recliners. 21:02 Because in recliners 21:04 'cause it's difficult sitting at a table 21:06 looking at each other. 21:07 Oh, yes, because it's the one less child, 21:10 one less person at the table 21:11 and it kept us from looking at that 21:14 and dealing with it. 21:15 We didn't go back to that table. 21:16 We didn't go back to that table. 21:18 And I guess the reason I want to say 21:20 that is for people they don't realize 21:22 that when you say everything changes. 21:24 We can't even have the meal together. 21:27 My friend set the table for her son 21:30 for years after he died and people said, 21:33 finally stopped setting the table. 21:34 It's too painful but everything changes. 21:36 So you're saying we're in recliners, 21:38 were eating, you're functioning, 21:40 doing the right thing, burying your anger. 21:42 That's what I was trying to do, and when you say different, 21:44 I mean like we shop for groceries in another town. 21:50 Because he would ride with me on the thing, 21:52 you know in the cart, and he would pick the things, 21:54 I have to go right by there 21:56 besides that people are not kind, 21:58 your best friends are not kind about this. 22:00 And so they will come up 22:01 and you're just getting some oxygen, 22:05 you felt good 22:06 and this individual from your church or something 22:09 will come by and hand you something. 22:11 And it will just burn you down for two weeks 22:14 and rather than take the risk you leave town. 22:16 So we shopped and did everything and... 22:18 Let me just say that 'cause I don't know 22:20 if we know how to speak to somebody 22:23 that's grieving at any level, 22:26 but definitely at this level we don't know what to say. 22:29 So we'll tend to cry to say something 22:32 but like you said, 22:33 if I'm breathing for the first time in a year. 22:36 I can't have you crying in front of me right now. 22:38 I can't have you saying this right now 22:40 and not mean anybody's cruel. 22:42 It's like I promise you I'm just breathing. 22:46 I'm just breathing. 22:47 And they don't mean. Yeah. 22:48 As matter of fact, they maybe even thought 15, 20 minutes 22:51 because when they saw you across a grocery store. 22:53 They may have concocted this great thing 22:54 that they think will really be great, 22:56 who best thing I heard. 23:00 Is what? Is nothing. 23:01 You can't say anything to me right now. 23:04 Our physician came over 23:06 and would drag my trash can to the street. 23:09 I watched them for months. 23:12 Never said a word. 23:13 Pulled up his car, grab that trash can, 23:17 pulled it over the street. 23:20 That's good service. 23:22 I mean that's... 23:23 Yeah, and people that would just hug me quick 23:26 and they're out the door. 23:27 Somebody dropped something off, 23:28 a lady came from the barbecue place 23:30 that Ramsey liked 23:31 and she knocked on the door and she comes... 23:34 That was, those were good. 23:36 I think that, I think somewhere in there 23:38 is that they would serve us a little bit 23:41 so that we would know that they were there for us 23:44 but that they would not project some thought 23:46 that they had to you 23:48 because there's no way 23:49 they could know what we were at 23:50 and they frequently did it really clumsily, 23:53 sometimes really bad. 23:54 I mean I had a lady at a Japanese restaurant 23:57 run from the store from the restaurant crying. 24:01 And it was probably, was it six months later? 24:03 Yeah, but she was going to, 24:05 she didn't realize Ramsey had drowned, 24:07 so they're going to get a high chair 24:10 and Ramsey is drowned and they didn't know, 24:14 you know, and then another time he's talking about 24:16 was the same restaurant where they literally looked at us 24:20 and she took off running. 24:22 You know and then you think I am so broken right now, 24:27 could you just hug me without running from me. 24:29 I can see. 24:30 Yeah, I can't see your reaction or your pain right now, 24:33 it doesn't help me. 24:34 That doesn't help. So, yeah. 24:36 So even being able to say with both of you, Jay, 24:43 I am sorry that I feel like 24:45 I really wanted to stay on these. 24:47 So for your anger and for your, 24:51 the way you functioned was to try to over function 24:55 and not deal with anything that you really feeling. 24:59 How long did it take before you finally said 25:03 this is not working. 25:04 That's a five year thing. Okay. 25:06 That's a five year thing at least. 25:10 Yeah, absolutely. 25:12 I would... 25:14 For a while I worked in a kind of an anger thing 25:16 despite you know that the world 25:19 and my God is you know... 25:23 injuring me or working against 25:25 what I and everyone else could see is good, 25:27 I am going to prevail here 25:29 and you work yourself out pretty good 25:31 because the situation is not changing 25:34 and you will and I worked myself down that way, 25:38 but I just try to be extremely diligent, 25:40 do the best I could for my family, 25:42 and do those physical things, trying to function. 25:45 I'm going to tell you, 25:46 there's the way that that worked out 25:48 that I was mad and functioning and she was not functioning 25:52 and later become and then she recovered 25:54 and then I entered a place that was not as good. 25:58 I've to look God ordained, you know where we didn't go, 26:03 we didn't become nonfunctional at the same time 26:06 and we were able to feed our kids 26:08 and show up at the right place 26:09 and pay our bills and do our thing. 26:11 So it was dramatically different 26:13 and I didn't get to any deep spiritual thought 26:16 till it was five years down the road 26:18 and other than just a bunch of anger. 26:20 So what, you know, and to me 26:23 and I know that you know that's at a level that I don't, 26:26 but I doubt God can handle all of that. 26:29 And where was it when you guys... 26:32 You and God actually started saying, I see you. 26:39 Had the thought one day and it was while I was at work. 26:45 Yeah, don't want to make this too bad 26:46 but I had an animal that had passed away 26:48 and I was just sitting there going on, this is, 26:50 I'm really down about this in five years out 26:52 I'm going like, but I know that... 26:57 that you were powerful enough to move there 27:03 and that animal woke up, when I thought that, 27:06 I had like this really pure thought. 27:08 I don't think it had anything to do with it 27:10 but my question was I know because of how I understand 27:14 who you are that you could have stopped change 27:16 or done something along the way I think, I think I have that. 27:19 As a matter of fact right now 27:20 in this little dingy surgery room 27:22 where I'm sitting on the stool. 27:24 I think you can change something right now. 27:28 You can't kick back off. It sounds like a miracle. 27:31 I'm not trying to take it like that. 27:33 What I'm trying to take it was he cracked the nut in my brain. 27:37 Yeah. 27:38 But that was true, but that was true 27:40 that he is all powerful and all knowing 27:42 he's omniscient in all these things that I understand. 27:45 And the last thing that came to me was 27:48 because of that was, he is not hurt by my questions. 27:52 He is got the answers. Yes. 27:54 Amen. So it ceased to be adversarial. 28:00 And that's when I started to turn the corner. 28:02 Just when I realized he was not out for my bad, 28:06 but had actual... 28:07 This is not punishment. 28:08 That's right, and there were answers to the questions 28:11 that I had, 28:12 and he's not insulted by me or the fact that I would ask. 28:16 That's incredible. 28:17 And it's so incredible for both of you now saying 28:21 that you know the enemy would do anything to say, 28:24 you know what, You just like what just happen, 28:27 you know, just kill yourself, just give up, just stop. 28:31 And God saying don't stop. Yes. 28:34 I never intended this ever you like you said Angelia, 28:38 you know we were not meant to bury people who we love, 28:41 we were not meant to experience loss and pain and dysfunction 28:45 and all that kind of stuff. 28:47 So now you're back into a relationship 28:49 where God is just saying, 28:51 can I breathe life back into you? 28:54 Yes. 28:55 Because right now you can't muster it up, 28:57 you're on your own. 28:58 That's right. 29:00 I like to breathe this back into you. 29:01 So as you guys start to stand up, 29:03 what does that look like in your home? 29:06 You know the first thing that happened 29:07 was we were just several months in 29:11 and we sold our home. 29:12 Well we didn't sell it, we moved into an apartment. 29:15 And is that to just get everyone 29:18 out of all of that familiar. 29:20 No, it was actually about our oldest son playing baseball 29:24 in a different school and it was a high, 29:26 you know academically it was the best place for him 29:29 and he played baseball and everything was better 29:31 and so in order for us to move for him to play, 29:35 it required us to move into that particular district. 29:38 So we had an apartment. 29:41 So we didn't sell the house yet but we had an apartment 29:43 and so we're sitting in this tiny... 29:46 We had a lovely home. 29:47 We're sitting in this tiny two bedroom apartment. 29:51 We're squeezed in there like this 29:53 and I remember I was in the kitchen 29:57 and you know little tiny apartment, 29:58 you can see everybody all the time. 30:00 So I remember I was in the kitchen, 30:02 I was making popcorn or something. 30:04 We were going to watch a movie 30:05 and I heard for the first time in seven or eight months. 30:11 I heard my family laugh. 30:14 I heard them laughing over a funny show on TV, 30:19 a cartoon or something. 30:20 And I just began to weep because I was not sure 30:24 I would ever hear my family laugh again, 30:27 could we and were we allowed. 30:29 I remember laughing and thinking oh... 30:33 Sort of guilt. 30:34 Yes, drawing myself back in, 30:35 I buried my son eight months ago 30:38 and I don't think, 30:39 I think people will get the wrong impression. 30:42 And I was just trying to heal but I had guilt over my joy 30:47 and he was just speaking life into my spirit. 30:51 You know, and so when I heard them laughing, 30:53 I remember thinking, we are going to make it. 30:57 We're going to make it. I know we're going to make it. 31:01 I can't even... 31:02 I can't even... 31:04 You want to stay on that moment, 31:06 that it's such an incredible thing for folks 31:08 that are struggling with anything especially grief 31:11 is that there is a moment, hang in there, 31:15 that you will get to the point where you are going to make it. 31:19 We're going to be okay. Yes, you know. 31:20 Not okay, not the saying. 31:22 No, not, you go into a different place, 31:24 but you think it's a okay place. 31:26 You're headed somewhere better. 31:27 You're headed there. 31:29 And so, Jay, I'd like to stay there 31:31 heading somewhere better, and I'm not saying better 31:36 because Ramsey is not there 31:37 but better in the sense of... 31:42 When we start to understand the depth of who we are, 31:46 or the depth of who God is what this world really is 31:49 outside of our pollyannaish view on Christianity 31:53 and I hate to say that because I don't mean that as a slam. 31:55 But we do have like you said to me one time 31:58 you know is that we think if we do this 32:01 and we have this in order and we have this, 32:03 when we go to church and we do our devotions 32:06 that we will not be touched by any of the sin. 32:08 That's right. 32:10 When we realize that that was a lie from the enemy himself. 32:13 That's right. 32:14 The people, everybody, 32:15 everybody that hears us speak today 32:17 will be thinking that won't happen. 32:19 This couldn't happen that this tragedy 32:21 that I heard about won't happen to us 32:23 because and we'll have a flimsy reason, 32:25 I stop at every stop sign. 32:26 I would never let my son drive to the prom alone, 32:29 whatever it is that got them to that place 32:31 they will protect them self a little bit. 32:33 I think that's kind of a normal thing, 32:37 but it's false and it doesn't, 32:40 there's no protection to be had in those things 32:44 and you know 32:45 when I hand that piece of information to somebody, 32:48 I also hand out the other things that you heard me say, 32:50 but this won't happen to you because it's... 32:55 What happens it happens, 32:56 and that's the truth about your new reality. 32:58 This thing has happened 33:00 and you're not going to unmake that happen 33:01 but you can, you can find to be a way 33:04 to be well in a different way. 33:05 You know, you'll be, you won't be the same. 33:07 And the other thing is you meet some people 33:10 that it just happened to him. 33:11 This happened with Angelia a lot from about a year out on, 33:15 I don't think in our community 33:16 there's anybody that had a tragedy 33:20 of some sort they didn't seek us out. 33:22 I really felt funny first because when I would go, 33:24 if I went and they saw me 33:26 especially if they're at the hospital. 33:27 You know I might be the harboring a bad news 33:29 because it didn't turn out well for me 33:32 but I soon gave that up 33:34 because those people were seeking us out. 33:35 And then we got a chance to speak with somebody 33:37 who was in a place where we were, and that... 33:39 Just buried a child. 33:40 Just buried a child 33:42 or is in the throes of the battle 33:43 of how that's going. 33:44 They might be okay, they might not 33:46 but having someone like us to talk to 33:48 suddenly became a role for us. 33:51 We really kind of embraced that and that helped, 33:54 that helped. 33:55 So how did that helped? 33:58 It's a commonality, you know, you want to help somebody 34:02 and then suddenly something 34:04 that you really have experienced deeply matters. 34:07 It didn't matter to anybody else before 34:08 but suddenly it does... 34:11 It's a scab over a big one, it really is. 34:14 I think for me it was not only somebody 34:18 wanting to know how I survived it. 34:21 When sometimes I was questioning am I surviving 34:25 but someone saw that I was surviving, 34:28 and I think that was because I was still breathing. 34:30 Right. You know. 34:31 And so I would hear myself tell someone else, 34:35 do this, it's okay not to get up till noon 34:39 and I would hear myself. 34:41 And I would go. I really am going to make it. 34:44 Amen. I'm going to make that. 34:46 And so it's just giving someone else 34:48 a little bit of hope. 34:49 And it sounds like and just hearing yourself 34:52 over and over and over, reminding yourself 34:56 almost to do the right thing, to do the next thing 34:59 and I, excuse me I want to apologize 35:00 for saying right thing to do the next thing, 35:03 because I really want to be sensitive 35:05 and there's no right or wrong thing in right now. 35:07 You know we want to label it and there is not, 35:09 it's the next thing, the next step. 35:12 You know we have talked about a lot of things 35:15 on this program. 35:17 I'm thinking about your two sons 35:20 because the only image I have the last image 35:22 is one's up on the porch wringing his hands 35:24 and the other one is holding this baby. 35:26 So what about them, where they are? 35:29 Well, I'll talk, I'll let you talk about our youngest son, 35:31 I'll talk about older son, okay. 35:32 My son Benjamin as a minor league baseball player now. 35:35 No way. 35:37 The party was a baseball party where he got sick. 35:41 And he still plays today and plays internationally, 35:45 started off maybe in Munich, played a Bern, Switzerland. 35:49 Today he's in South Africa. 35:51 He plays associated baseball in Fargo, North Dakota 35:57 during the regular season 35:58 so he's what they're presently today. 36:00 He's below the equator playing 36:01 what they would call winter ball 36:03 and getting prepared for him 36:05 to continue his career up there, 36:06 you know it's called the Fargo Morehead Red Hawks 36:09 is the team he has contract with presently. 36:11 I could just see you at a game just screaming your head off, 36:14 I bet it has been fun. Oh, my gosh. 36:17 Listen I need my Christian friends to ignore me 36:19 when we're talking about umpire, 36:21 we'll just talk about that later. 36:23 So your other son? 36:24 Yes, the other son Chandler, the middle son. 36:26 He just finished an internship in New York 36:30 with the United Nations permanent mission to Israel 36:34 and he is all about it. 36:37 He's all about it, he just graduated from college 36:40 with two degrees, honors in both 36:43 and he's looking for an opportunity 36:46 to get back in the embassy. 36:47 So I don't want to say goodbye yet, I want to take a break, 36:50 I want to come back for the close, 36:51 I want you to say a little bit more 36:53 about the kids and then talk to, 36:57 talk to our audience. 36:58 So we'll be right back. Stay with us. |
Revised 2016-09-19