Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Richie & Timari Brower
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000132B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:13 Welcome back I love, you know, 00:16 I got to say both Richie and Timmy, 00:18 what I love about who you are and your ministry 00:21 and what you bring is that you are so real 00:24 and for whatever reason you made a decision 00:26 somewhere just to be that. 00:28 We talked before the break 00:30 about your journey from childhood 00:34 and then how difficult that was 00:36 being adopted by a family 00:38 that kind of taught you 00:39 a little bit more about relationships 00:41 and the people that mentored you. 00:42 When you guys met how crazy that was 00:45 even though you wanted the kind of happy ever after 00:48 and the sunset on the beach 00:50 and all that romantic intimacy 00:52 that didn't happen for you 00:53 in the first year was not that easy. 00:55 So we're right there in the first year 00:57 confused stepping into ministry 00:59 trying to figure out, you know, 01:02 what do we do now? 01:04 So talk a little bit more about that? 01:06 It was, you know also 01:08 we're figuring out the pastoral ministry part 01:11 but it's sometimes a lot easier for me 01:13 as a guy to figure out the work side of my life 01:15 than to figure out the relational side of my life 01:17 and that's pretty much what I did... 01:18 I know how to do. 01:20 I can figure, I can do this, 01:21 but I don't know what to do here. 01:23 And so we keep trying 01:24 to figure things out relationally 01:26 and even sexually and it just, 01:28 it go up in flames over and over. 01:30 For a guy that's a pretty big deal. 01:32 It says a lot about, you know, 01:34 how much of a man am I and all these things 01:36 and so there's a lot of connecting 01:39 to other parts of my story. 01:41 I'm rejected again, I'm abandoned again, 01:44 I'm not enough again. Here I'm alone again. 01:47 And so that vow that I had made, 01:49 I'm never going be depended on anybody 01:51 starts surfacing 01:52 and for me came up is lots of anger, 01:55 explosive anger about whatever. 01:57 And we don't even know... 01:59 When you said that, 02:00 I don't think that as a woman 02:02 we have any idea when men can't 02:05 or don't connect sexually 02:07 when somehow there's a rift in there, 02:09 every single thing that you define yourself 02:11 by is affected 02:14 and we don't know who to ask. 02:16 Nobody talks about that stuff. 02:17 That's right. Yeah. 02:19 So there we are and so 02:22 basically we were three and a half years 02:24 in this district 02:26 and into our marriage and saying, 02:27 you know this isn't working 02:29 and somewhere in that time we reached out 02:30 Timmy did I guess really to a counselor 02:33 for the first time 02:34 and said, man, we got to do something, 02:37 but we really didn't get any traction there. 02:40 So that's just like, Timmy, 02:41 what's really interesting about that 02:43 and I don't know about you, 02:44 but I come into a church that didn't believe in counseling. 02:49 So and I'm crazy ass, right. 02:52 So I'm thinking, 02:53 so if you don't believe in counseling, 02:54 where do I go. 02:56 But what you are saying is that my pain level was so high, 02:59 the disconnect was so high, I had no choice. 03:02 And so even for people 03:04 that are struggling with that part of the story 03:06 is find somebody that's Christian, 03:08 find somebody that you believe their journey 03:12 and sit down in front of them 03:14 and just start talking 03:16 because we need each other. 03:18 We do and especially 03:19 pastoring is a very isolating position 03:22 because and I was 21 when we got married, 03:24 two weeks into 21 and I mean I was a baby 03:27 and we were in such a beautiful district. 03:30 You could not have asked for more nurturing kind people 03:33 that we had the privilege of ministering to, 03:36 but we didn't know where you're supposed to go, 03:39 what you're supposed to do, like I said, 03:40 we only tried the doctor route you know. 03:42 If things aren't working physically then you, you know, 03:45 you go to a doctor. 03:46 You know, well, there's nothing wrong. 03:47 Okay, well... 03:50 So what's the next stop? 03:51 And you do want to get on the platform, excuse me, 03:52 but how is your sex life? 03:54 Right. 03:55 It's a weird way to start a sermon. 03:57 Or end. 03:59 Or end, 04:00 it's like being able to say there are things that 04:01 nobody really talks about and so you're saying, 04:04 you know what, 04:05 we're not going to survive 04:06 unless somebody actually starts to talk to us. 04:09 And so I did seek someone out merely 04:14 because I had no idea who to talk to 04:16 and I was actually ironically 04:18 really against counselors as well, 04:20 because only weak people go to counselors, 04:23 missing the point 04:24 that I was actually in school to become one. 04:27 There was a disconnect there. 04:29 Yeah. 04:30 But, and I was really concerned that after, 04:33 you know, I think I saw her 04:34 seven or eight times. 04:36 It didn't fix everything. 04:38 Can you believe it? 04:39 That's too funny. 04:41 No, it was not funny. 04:42 No, you look at as we expect that, 04:43 wait, I just paid you, 04:46 I should feel fine. 04:48 And, but, 04:50 and we may have seen her more 04:51 but we were moved to a new town 04:54 in a different state to pastor a new congregation 04:57 and so we went in there going, okay, well, 05:01 everything's falling apart but we've been moved. 05:03 So we're going to keep doing the Lord's work 05:05 and we'll figure it out as we go. 05:07 But when we were pastoring to begin with, 05:10 Richie was one of three pastors in a three church district. 05:14 So it was pretty cushy from a pastoral standpoint 05:17 and now we're moved up to a different town 05:19 and we're church planting. 05:20 It's only us, we don't even have a church 05:22 that's sending us out, 05:23 and so it was us with the other couple 05:26 and their baby who joined us. 05:28 And we're going to save the world 05:30 for Jesus by ourselves. 05:33 And both of us, both of us from our stories, 05:36 I think are tempted towards isolation and going, 05:38 I'm tough enough, I can do this. 05:39 I don't need anybody. 05:41 I don't need anybody else, 05:42 I can just, I can figure it out. 05:43 I'm smart enough, I've read enough books. 05:45 We will make it happen. 05:46 We have a huge library of books, 05:51 but soon we find ourselves church planting 05:54 and the pressure increased exponentially 05:59 and we still don't have the resources, 06:01 we still don't know what to do 06:03 and so fast forward a few years and... 06:05 So and you're talking about it 06:07 and so that as we're trying to grow intimately as a couple, 06:11 as we're trying to figure out who we are as a couple, 06:14 all of this other pressure is overwhelming. 06:18 And what we tend to do and I don't know 06:20 if this is true in your case is we tend to say, 06:22 okay, I'm going to put, 06:23 I'm going to keep in my hand 06:25 what feels good and I feel confident with, 06:27 everything else gets pushed in the closet. 06:29 Yep. 06:30 Yeah, we certainly went 06:31 our own directions in that, you know, 06:33 I started working at a homeless shelter 06:34 for women and children. 06:35 Everything I did turned to gold there, 06:37 they loved me, 06:38 and they served three meals a day, 06:40 so I never have to come home. 06:41 They even have showers if it comes to that, 06:44 and so I just kind of shifted my life, 06:46 I was in graduate school at that point 06:47 working full time internship, practicum, 06:49 worship leader on the weekends... 06:51 Ministering to these women. 06:52 Yeah, and... 06:54 but we were church planting too, 06:56 I mean so I was leading a small group for the church 06:58 and I was worship leader and, 06:59 I mean so, I just kind of shifted, 07:01 I'm like I can't make this work. 07:03 I can't make him happy. 07:04 I'm not going to try anymore. 07:06 And so I just shifted my life somewhere else 07:08 and he was more than occupied with the church plants 07:10 and so... 07:12 So you could jump into all those tasks 07:13 and do them very well, 07:15 so both of you just started doing. 07:17 Yep. 07:19 We went years, 07:22 now we're talking about a span of years 07:24 that we work on this church plant. 07:25 And we weren't winning an intimacy, 07:27 we weren't building 07:29 closer connections relationally, 07:30 we weren't growing, we were going apart, 07:32 so the opposite of oneness was what was happening at home 07:36 and our church plant grew. 07:38 We grew from two couples 07:40 to over one hundred people attending. 07:42 And so, you know, it looked like success, right. 07:45 But we were hemorrhaging and then it came to a place 07:50 and the breaking point and also the turning point 07:53 was when I took a sabbatical, 07:55 three months sabbatical 07:56 from pastoral ministry, yay and... 07:59 Well, yay unless you're Timmy, it's like three months, 08:02 we're going to have to hang out with each other. 08:04 Oh, no, we didn't hang out, 08:05 we did quite the most restful things 08:07 we could do was build a house from scratch with our own... 08:09 With our hands. Oh, no no. 08:11 'Cause isn't that a restful thing to do on a sabbatical? 08:14 You must be related to my husband. 08:15 I'm probably. 08:17 So we're not... 08:18 we're not the wisest people you've ever interviewed, 08:20 I'm just telling you, so we take a break 08:21 and we build a house, 08:23 so we start building a house 08:25 and when we come back from our sabbatical, 08:26 we find that our church plant 08:28 has dropped in attendance by half 08:31 because we had some other key leaders 08:33 who got sick like they went on a mission trip, 08:35 got this some nasty disease and never came back, 08:38 so they lost their pastor and wife 08:41 and this these other two really 08:42 important key members of our team 08:45 and the church was just imploding. 08:46 And so we tried to bail it out. 08:48 We worked with our leadership 08:50 and tried to figure out 08:51 and it just would not be turned around, 08:53 it was going down. 08:54 Couldn't be resuscitating. 08:56 And at the same time our marriage was going down 08:58 and so we literally came to a point 09:00 where we agreed that Timmy would go away 09:03 because at this point we're still saying 09:05 that Timmy is the issue, 09:06 Richie is still perfect. 09:09 You know, and it's really interesting 09:12 because even when you say that, 09:13 most of us do fall for those lies. 09:15 We really do think it's one or the other, 09:18 if it wasn't for you would be okay, 09:20 but I want to say one thing as you are going in the story 09:23 that I'm always wowed by God 'cause he's brilliant. 09:27 Let's have them build a house from scratch. 09:30 Do you know what I mean 'cause he's right there 09:32 saying the things that you're going to learn. 09:33 Somebody feels like God wasn't there 09:35 and now he is going to be there, 09:36 God was there the whole time. 09:38 So now you're looking at each other. 09:40 You're going to get sent where? 09:42 I mean, where did you send your wife? 09:44 You sent her to intensive counseling 09:45 to get her issues fixed. 09:47 Oh. 09:48 That's what you do. 09:49 And we both agreed because we... 09:51 'cause in his defense 09:52 we both thought I was the identified problem 09:54 because my issues were a little more blatant 09:57 I would say than Richie's 10:00 'cause Richie was still perfect at that point. 10:01 Well, Richie and Richie thought he was 10:04 but actually there had been evidence to the contrary... 10:08 We did show up... 10:10 Indeed it was showing up 10:11 and actually during the building process 10:13 we had some conflict amazingly. 10:15 And Timmy had reached out to a really important mentor 10:19 who'd been a part of now 10:21 he'd saved our marriage before we got married, 10:23 a whole another story, 10:24 and we worked with him on some of our marriage issues. 10:27 And she said, you know, 10:29 Richie and I are having this issue. 10:30 She called him, I didn't know this. 10:31 So we're framing our house 10:34 and I get a phone call early in the morning, 10:35 we're just starting the job that day, 10:37 and our friend Gary is on the line 10:39 and he says, Richie, can we talk. 10:40 And so I walk away from the job site 10:42 and Gary says, now we've worked with him 10:45 in the counseling type role, right so... 10:47 He's a pastor 10:48 who is very, very good at seeing people. 10:51 Amen. 10:52 Amazingly gifted and he says, Richie, 10:55 I've been talking with Timmy 10:56 and based on what she's telling me 10:58 and what I've seen, 10:59 you are spiritually and emotionally 11:01 abusive to your wife 11:03 and it needs to stop. 11:06 He was pretty direct. 11:08 Now, fortunately he didn't just say, 11:10 did you get all that and hang up. 11:11 Right. 11:13 But you know what? 11:14 I've got to say when we love each other enough 11:16 that I'm not going to back away from that, 11:18 it's what I'm saying to you is I love you 11:20 and I cannot not say that. 11:22 That's right. That's right. 11:24 So you knew that he cared about you. 11:25 You know that he's not slamming you. 11:27 But how did you receive that, is like are you kidding me? 11:31 Well, I remember 11:32 our property was kind of two tiered property. 11:34 We had some cliffs that drop down 11:36 and I'm sitting on top of these cliffs 11:37 looking down in the woods talking to Gary, 11:39 tears running down my face, 11:41 and so he said those really hard things right up front, 11:42 and then he said. 11:44 Richie, God's not done with you. 11:45 He sees gold... 11:47 Amen, amen. 11:48 He sees gold in you but this has to stop. 11:51 And there's a book that I loved, 11:53 it was one of my favorite things in ministry 11:55 but the book was called Caring Enough to Confront. 11:57 Yes. 11:58 And so, you now to me, if this guy was here, 12:01 I would kiss him on the face 12:03 'cause he probably handed you your life. 12:05 Now I'd like to say 12:07 that after being confronted that directly 12:09 that everything changed. 12:10 I know 'cause wouldn't we are. 12:12 When we all like to say that. 12:14 You had your own moment of light. 12:16 I'm a slow learner 12:17 so fast-forward a couple months, 12:19 only couple months from that 12:20 to now Timmy is going away 12:21 because we're still, Richie is still saying. 12:24 All right, so what I took away from the conversation was, 12:27 oh, things are worse than I had thought. 12:30 That's how far I was moved with that conversation and not, 12:33 not things in me are worse than I thought, 12:34 just things are worse than I thought. 12:36 And you were open to the idea 12:38 that you might possibly have something to do 12:40 with the marital issues you were having. 12:41 Perhaps may even not likely. 12:42 Right. 12:44 I had read those 13 books. 12:45 So he had the right words to say, he did, 12:47 he had more words and words are valuable 12:49 but they don't always lead to action. 12:50 So I left 12:52 and one of the things that happened 12:54 while I was gone 12:55 working with some really neat Christian women and... 13:00 So I don't want to get past that too much 13:02 so you stepped out and started pulling 13:05 and support from other woman. 13:08 I already had some support. 13:09 I had an accountability at home, 13:11 some ladies at the homeless shelter 13:12 and I to the other staff and I started meeting together, 13:16 just to kind of learn what does it mean to love well, 13:18 how do we be in relationship. 13:20 What is it? 13:22 Basically how do we love well is what it came down to 13:25 in our real nitty-gritty of our lives. 13:26 We knew everything... 13:28 I mean after meeting for a while. 13:29 You know, we knew everything 13:31 that was dark and difficult 13:33 as well as glorious and beautiful in each other 13:36 and they really showed me a different way to love. 13:40 They were actually the reason that I started realizing, 13:43 this can't all be just me because it takes two to love. 13:46 And so if and they really modeled for me 13:50 in such beautiful life giving ways, 13:53 what love is supposed to be. 13:55 They started setting a new template 13:57 because I was able to look at the relationship 13:59 I had with them. 14:00 And just how we cared for each other and I went, 14:03 wait if that's love, this isn't. 14:05 Right, I'm not feeling that at home. 14:07 We're calling love is some strange amalgamation 14:10 that isn't it. 14:11 And so, but that didn't, 14:13 wasn't received super well when I brought that home. 14:15 You know what we're doing isn't love, 14:17 excuse me and it really didn't... 14:19 Well, I just pointed out that 14:21 it's clearly her issue 14:22 so if she wanted to have love here, 14:24 then she just needed to keep working on her staff. 14:26 Yeah, she wasn't being able to receive it. 14:28 You don't know how to give it, 14:29 you don't, can't even identify it. 14:30 So in your mind as a man and I have to say that 14:33 because we laugh at that but that's, 14:35 it really is what some people believe. 14:38 And what God has to say is I've got to, 14:40 I've got to get over both of you, 14:43 your conception of what this is 14:46 because you will not be able to love each other 14:48 until you surrender this to me. 14:50 So you're saying a little bit of support, 14:52 I love the fact that you have a male calling to you 14:56 in a mentoring way. 14:57 You've got people that are walking alongside of you 15:00 but you're still not looking at each other. 15:02 Not so much and so while I was gone, 15:04 one of the things that became clear to me is that 15:07 I had these women that I was walking with and, 15:10 you know, good things they were beautiful mirrors to me. 15:13 Oh, you've got some dirt right there. 15:14 Okay, I mean, now I can do something about it 15:17 because I know about it. 15:18 And Richie was very convinced that he didn't need any help. 15:21 He was really pretty great. 15:22 And so one of the things I said, 15:25 I said I am ready to come home. 15:27 And I will not come home 15:29 until you are in an accountability 15:32 relationship with another man 15:34 and he had, 15:35 he had our almost two year old at home with him. 15:37 He was very motivated for me to come home. 15:42 You know our marriage was challenged, 15:43 our church was imploding, 15:45 and he had a toddler on his hands 15:46 and I wasn't there. 15:48 And so, we had some friends over right 15:51 before I had left 15:53 and the man had offered himself to Richie and said, 15:56 he said, you know Timmy can do 15:58 all the counseling she wants 15:59 he said but Richie you are the key 16:01 and so, you know, if... 16:05 just saying that we had it, 16:06 it was going to come down to us, 16:08 it wasn't going just being out there. 16:09 And when he says, Richie, you are the key, 16:12 how did you take that? 16:14 I hated him. Yeah. 16:15 And we do. 16:17 Yeah, because... We got to hear it. 16:19 What I heard him say, 16:20 he said, Richie, you're the key. 16:22 What I heard him say was Richie, it's your fault. 16:24 And I was already convinced that our church plant 16:27 collapse was my fault. 16:28 So my fault plate was fault, so I turned him out, 16:31 I didn't want to hear anything he had to say, 16:33 but then she's on the phone, 16:35 she puts a relational gun to my head and says, 16:37 I'll be home when you have accountability. 16:38 There's only one person in my world 16:40 who has offered. 16:41 Right. 16:43 It's my friend Jerry, 16:44 who I now call Jerry the jerk... 16:46 And he knows. And he loves that, yes. 16:48 'Cause he knows he's not going to tell you 16:50 what you want to hear. 16:52 He is not, no... 16:53 You need to hear this. That's right. 16:54 Jerry is retired Air Force and he's very focused, 16:58 he doesn't miss things. 17:00 Pretty intense dude, so I called Jerry 17:04 and I'm sure I sounded really enthusiastic and I said, 17:06 "Hey, you still interested in getting together" and he was. 17:10 And so about eight and half years ago, 17:15 Jerry and I started meeting 17:16 and this is where the turnaround began 17:18 when I started meeting with him. 17:20 So we met for two and a half to three hours every week, 17:23 and have done that pretty much 17:25 for the last eight and half years. 17:26 Even the amount of time that you said, 17:30 that this person is spoken to your life 17:32 that I'm not going to call you up 17:34 every once in a while or drop a text on you 17:36 is we are going to seriously be in front of each other, 17:39 what an amazing thing. 17:42 So talk a little bit about what he offered you 17:46 and how important was that 17:48 because you had a paradigm shift, 17:50 everything in your world had to shift. 17:51 That's right. 17:53 So obviously we went lots of directions, 17:56 you know, in all these conversations 17:57 hundreds and hundreds of hours 17:58 we spent talking at this point but... 18:00 And I could hear you, yes, but, yes, but... 18:02 Oh, yeah. 18:03 No, it's her but I only come in some weeks 18:05 especially in the beginning he said, 18:06 "Do you know what that woman did to me?" 18:08 Right. 18:09 I took a picture of it. 18:10 Yeah, you should see this, 18:12 and he was just calm 18:13 and basically the agenda every week 18:16 for all these weeks has been and it hasn't changed 18:19 how to be a godly man and how to live our wives well. 18:22 So whatever story I came in with her 18:24 or something was happening in our church plant 18:26 as it was going downhill and eventually closed. 18:29 A lot of relational carnage there caused by me 18:32 in part he just bring so, 18:34 so how would Jesus respond in this situation? 18:38 What does it mean to be a godly man in the situation? 18:40 That's still what he's saying to me, 18:41 and he's still holding up that mirror and I look, 18:44 I look at him just a few weeks ago and said, 18:45 that's why we call you a jerk. 18:48 And because what he offers to me is a place 18:53 where number one, 18:54 I don't get away with anything, 18:56 he's going to call me on my stuff 18:57 and he says, let's look at your part in this. 18:59 Because he cares about you. 19:00 Because he cares about me and I know I can say anything 19:03 and he's not going to think less of me, 19:05 and I know that he's 100 percent 19:07 in favor of my marriage 19:08 so no matter what I say about this woman, 19:10 he's going to be in favor of our marriage 19:13 rather than taking a side. 19:16 Even as you say that because, you know, 19:18 I had to put people in my own life 19:19 to work with Brad and I and to bless us. 19:22 I know that I made a mistake 19:25 if that person talks badly about my husband. 19:27 That's right. 19:29 And so, when you said, 19:30 when somebody is going to come in, 19:31 they have to be for you too, you are one flesh. 19:35 This is not about trying to convince me 19:37 that he is wrong or I'm right 19:39 or any of that silliness. 19:40 This is about teaching us to love one another, 19:42 so I love the fact that Jerry said, 19:44 I'm going to keep you right there. 19:46 Yeah, so, in fact we tell people, 19:48 we say, look, you know, 19:49 if you bring someone in to work with you 19:50 and they take sides, 19:52 they're either not spiritually mature enough 19:53 or they're not professional enough 19:55 and you gonna lose him. 19:56 And you really do that should be a red flag 19:59 when somebody you know Proverbs said something 20:01 that it got me early on in my recovery is 20:04 be aware of the person that winks a eye at you. 20:07 Beware of the person that flatters you 20:09 because fluttering is not going to grow me. 20:11 You know, I'm not going to do any good 20:12 if I walk around feeling all right 20:14 and my marriage is falling apart. 20:16 I need someone that's going to be real to me. 20:18 So Jerry, it sounds like not only gave you the time 20:21 but literally spent time with you. 20:22 And so now, I have to say, Timmy, 20:24 there's a point when you're looking at 20:27 what Jerry is offering him and the time spent. 20:30 When did you start to believe 20:32 that he actually was starting to get it? 20:34 Oh, it took a few years... 20:37 But why wouldn't you say that. 20:39 Somebody says, oh, couple of sessions, get out. 20:41 No, get out, please get out. 20:44 Yeah, and we had a place too. 20:48 You know, we've had stints of good behavior 20:50 before where anger wasn't an issue 20:52 and we were working together pretty well 20:54 but then something happen... 20:56 She what was going to find. 20:57 Yeah, me and that pneumatic hammer 21:00 and then something would happen 21:02 and the cycles of anger and withdrawal 21:04 and just our crazy cycle would start again. 21:07 And so, you know, I had my accountability group, 21:09 Richie had Jerry. 21:10 But we also need a place where we could talk together 21:13 and so there was another couple 21:16 who we had interacted with and we approached them 21:19 and said, we're just going to be really honest, 21:22 we are saving the world and falling apart and so would, 21:27 you know, would you and your husband be willing 21:29 to just walk with us and be a safe place 21:32 for us to talk together with the two of you 21:34 and try to kind of figure out what it is to do live 21:37 because we're not doing it well, 21:38 and at this point, 21:40 you know, we have our firstborn child 21:42 and we don't want to teach him 21:43 that this is what love looks like. 21:45 We don't want to set that template. 21:46 This is what ministry looks like, 21:47 this was a real because it's everything. 21:49 This is what a relationship with God looks like 21:52 and you're saying, man, I'm down, 21:53 I can't, I can't let this be passed on. 21:56 Right, and so I talked to her, 21:59 she talked to her husband they came back and said, 22:01 what does every other week sound good. 22:03 Okay. 22:05 And about every other day 22:06 Yeah, but I think every other week sounded pretty intense. 22:10 So we started meeting with Tim and Stacy 22:13 every other week 22:14 and they pretty much adopted us for a year, 22:16 we spent holidays in their home 22:18 and what a typical evening would look like, 22:21 we would go over on whatever night it was, 22:23 I don't remember now 22:24 but we would have dinner with them 22:26 and then we just all kind of talk their kids 22:28 who were teenagers 22:29 and then one or both of their kids 22:31 would take ours downstairs to play 22:33 and then we just kind of be talking about 22:35 what really had happened in the last few weeks 22:38 and be like, you know, 22:39 when you drive in there and you're like, 22:40 what do you want to talk about. 22:42 I don't know what do you want to talk about. 22:44 You know we both knew the things 22:46 that needed to be talked about 22:47 but it's so hard to come before someone and say, 22:50 here is the very true and ugly of me. 22:52 Yeah. 22:54 Are you going to like me anyway? 22:55 And what I love about mentoring and being real and figure out 22:59 how to do this is we've got to, 23:01 we've got to put that person out there, 23:04 when I get the ugliest, 23:05 this is what I look like, 23:07 and we've got to say please don't judge me. 23:09 This is not about whether I love God, 23:11 this is not any of that, I don't even know 23:14 why this person comes up but he comes up. 23:16 And so I love the fact that you're brave enough that says, 23:18 you know, even on the way over there, 23:20 you're trying to look at each other 23:21 and say please say that nicer 23:23 because, you know... 23:25 Please don't reveal me quite that much. 23:27 Exactly, exactly. 23:28 And I would say 23:30 we got relationally naked with these guys. 23:32 We didn't pull our punches we didn't try to hide. 23:34 I mean of course we did, but I mean, 23:36 when it all came down to it, we didn't. 23:38 I mean we, 23:39 they really saw the glory sides of us 23:42 and what was really beautiful is they completely normalized. 23:46 I mean sometimes we would like tell this horrible story, 23:48 this horrible conversation we'd had and we'd be like 23:51 oh, you remember that time we did that... 23:53 Me too. Oh, my goodness. 23:55 And we're like, 23:57 oh, you mean we're not evil. 23:58 Amen. 24:00 We're the only ones. 24:01 We're the only ones and they're like, 24:03 yeah, but here's how, 24:04 here's what God taught us through that 24:06 and they just basically shared their testimony 24:08 of different things, 24:09 and they taught us some skills and stuff 24:10 because they were farther down the marital road than we were 24:13 and they... 24:14 but they were a couple who had really 24:16 from everything we had seen, 24:17 they had chosen to grow through their conflict instead of... 24:20 It's incredible. 24:22 They didn't try to hide it. They didn't try to minimize it. 24:23 They said... 24:25 They empathized with you. Oh my goodness. 24:26 Yes, and... 24:28 And what is amazing is that we ended up 24:30 because we recognize we're in crisis right, 24:32 we're bleeding out and so we call this the I.C.U. 24:35 phase of our marriage. 24:37 And so we had this mentor couple. 24:39 Timmy had her group, I had Jerry. 24:41 We were spending collectively six to ten hours a week 24:45 during this phrase working on ironing out 24:47 what was broken in our relationship. 24:50 You know, 24:51 and I'm gonna go ahead and break 24:52 and we're going to come back for close 24:54 because I can't believe we've run out of time. 24:55 Luckily we're going to do another program with you guys, 24:58 but I want to, I want to say, 25:00 I so admire the fact 25:03 that you guys that are pulling whoever, 25:06 I mean after you guys started working, 25:07 it looked like you pulled in, 25:09 whoever is going to be real enough to help us. 25:11 And so we're going to take a break. 25:13 If you are relationally bleeding, 25:16 look around you because there will be someone 25:18 that you can pull in, 25:19 there will be somebody that gets that. 25:21 You know, you can read a book, 25:22 you can do all of that if you want to 25:24 but it's not the same as having somebody 25:26 right in front of you, being that mirror. 25:28 So we're gonna be right back with Richie and Timmy Brower, 25:31 and we're going to talk about 25:34 where they are at now 25:35 and I want them to tell you something. 25:38 So stay with us. |
Revised 2016-10-31