Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Dan & Angela Clark
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00078A
|
00:11 Welcome to Celebrating Life In Recovery my name is Cheri.
00:13 Have you ever felt too crazy that maybe even God can't 00:16 help you? Not true! 00:18 I'm going to introduce you to a couple today that you 00:20 will want to kiss God on the face. 00:22 Come in the café and join us. 00:52 Welcome back, we are going to talk today about a number 00:55 of things, I'm going to introduce you to Dan and Angela 00:57 Clark and they're going to talk about their testimony. 01:00 They had a lot of things going on in their life, but what 01:03 got me when telling me their story, is how they dealt 01:06 with issues in their own relationship. 01:09 Co-dependency being one of them, and I know people hate 01:12 to hear that word, they don't know what it means, 01:14 what is it exactly? 01:15 I remember a couple come on over to my house and we 01:17 are doing marriage counseling. 01:19 They came over to my house and they were, I'm leaving, 01:21 I hate him, no matter what you say I'm divorcing him 01:24 and they didn't even like to sit together. 01:27 I have been sit on the couch and they were at opposite 01:30 ends of the couch. 01:31 Don't touch me, your on my half, it was like 01:33 watching these two little kids. 01:35 I then looked at this guy who has this rage disorder. 01:38 Vietnam Vet, he was sentenced for murder at 17 and they sent 01:44 him to Vietnam, I mean he has his horrendous background 01:48 with anger, but I realize that the marriage issues weren't 01:51 really his issues, it was her codependency. 01:54 So I turned around her and I said I think at least half 01:57 of the issue is you. 01:59 She looked like she was going to cut my throat. 02:01 She was so angry, she was wanting to pack her bags. 02:04 She said I come here and trusting you and you are 02:07 telling me that is my problem, and within a week they 02:09 were like newlyweds again but she had to look at the 02:12 fact that maybe the way she was responding to the world 02:16 around her caused her over, and over, and over again 02:19 be in these same situations. 02:21 Today we're going to talk about that, and if you are a 02:24 codependent don't hate me at the end of this, because 02:26 this is going to be good for you. 02:28 So I want to introduce you to Dan and Angela and I want 02:30 to say thank you so much for being on the program. 02:32 Thanks much for having us. 02:34 You know what I'm talking about, it's a hard thing. 02:36 Yeah I do, it is, it is! 02:38 Were going to get into that but first of all let's find 02:40 out who you are, where you are from, and Dan let's start 02:44 with you, I know that when I first heard your story, 02:47 I was like shut up that is intense. 02:50 Start out from being raised. 02:53 I grew up in West Land Michigan just outside of Detroit. 02:57 I grew up in a two-bedroom house with four brothers. 03:00 - you're kidding me? No was four kids in one room with 03:03 two bunks. - a mom and dad? Yes, mom and dad. 03:07 My mother was a hoarder, we picked up carpet everywhere. 03:12 The house was completely full and we had 03:14 trails through our house. 03:15 Just for somebody who doesn't know what a hoarder is, 03:18 I think I'm married to one. 03:21 So explain because it is a sickness. 03:24 Yes, yes my mother, she collected everything. 03:27 We picked up junk continually and brought it into our 03:29 house, old rugs that were urinated on. 03:31 My mother just wouldn't let us go by. 03:33 - so even like you said, there is piles in your house. 03:37 It was small enough but you had to 03:39 literally walk through that? 03:40 We walked through trails, we had a dog and the house was full 03:43 of fleas, the dog wet every where and it literally lifted 03:46 the tiles off the kitchen floor. 03:48 It was in terrible condition, when we had to take a 03:51 shower we had clothes in the tub and we took them out, 03:54 it was filled full of fish worm and silkworms and mold 03:57 growing on the walls, it was really crazy. 04:01 To me as I'm looking at you and you are talking about 04:04 this, is that I've had to work with people with that 04:06 story, when you walk in the house you don't want to say 04:08 anything and don't want to look shocked, but these kids 04:11 their normal day to day stuff is tragic. 04:14 You wonder what do you think of the world? 04:18 How do you walk out of this, go to school and then 04:20 walk back into this? 04:21 Oh man, I don't think I was conscious, I was so used to it, 04:25 it and that my mother had a nervous breakdown every 3 years, 04:29 years, so every 3 years, and she was schizophrenic 04:32 a paranoid schizophrenic, so every 3 years at 5 years old 04:35 I was literally bolting the windows shut. 04:38 My mother would say Dan, bolt the window shut, somebody's 04:40 going to come in. 04:41 I was putting screws in the window with a screw gun 04:43 at the back door and was thinking how would we ever 04:46 get out of here. 04:47 Then we will call my dad, because he worked out of town, 04:49 and I would say dad you need to come home moms having a 04:52 breakdown and then she would get undressed and run down 04:55 the street, and this happened every 3 years or so. 04:57 It was part of our normal life watching our mother go 05:00 into the mental ward and visiting her there. 05:03 It was pretty crazy. 05:06 I would like to say I'm sorry for what you saw growing up. 05:12 As a kid by the time you are any age at all, 05:16 the world is just skewed as far as your view of it. 05:20 What is real and what is not real, what's safe and what 05:23 is not safe, because even though you knew that your 05:26 mom was paranoid, there was that sense of urgency skewed 05:29 was always with you. 05:32 That is where I learned co-dependency. 05:33 I was watching my mom suffer and it 5 years old I was 05:37 saying, mom don't worry, dad's going to come home. 05:40 I was fixing her and I was making her okay. 05:42 - I want to take care of you. Yeah I want to take care 05:44 of you, and I would kneel down in front of her and say 05:47 mom, dad will be home don't worry I'll bolt up the house 05:51 really good and that was the life we lived out of. 05:54 Now if I can jump up to 18? 05:57 Before you jump up I want to say one thing because 06:01 I think Dan, it's amazing to me that you learned very 06:05 young to be very good at that. 06:06 Then people thank you for taking care of your mom, 06:09 and your dad I'm sure appreciate that you were there 06:12 and called him with all that stuff. 06:14 All your sense of who you are and your worth was around 06:18 whether you could keep this craziness at some kind 06:22 of a workable level. - yes, and I protected her. 06:26 If I'm brothers raised their voice I would literally 06:29 be in a closet with a pan, and if anyone raised their voice 06:32 too loud, their responsible for mom's mental 06:34 condition to my dad. 06:36 We learned to anticipate every move, that's a 06:38 codependent, always anticipating somebody's move and say 06:41 dad looks like he's going to get mad I better do this. 06:44 Your 10 steps ahead of everybody, whether it's real or 06:47 not and you're trying to fix, you're trying to keep calm 06:51 because my dad was very angry, he got explosive angry. 06:54 He would whip a glass at my mom's head, it just shattered 06:57 in her hair and we watch my mom pull out glass of her 07:00 hair and then she would come with a bag full of nail 07:03 polish and wept my dad on the head. 07:06 Then my dad he would sit in the hallway, this is crazy, 07:10 but he would shoot BBs. 07:12 - Well you haven't been crazy up to this point so... 07:17 this may sound crazy guys, but my dad used to sit on the 07:21 floor, and my mother was heavily tranquilized, 07:24 seriously tranquilized, stuff you wouldn't believe. 07:28 He would shoot BBs over her head to get her up in the 07:31 morning, he'd say get up woman, boom. 07:33 She'd say Mel quick firing at me. 07:35 I would go dad, dad, he'd say woman get up, boom. 07:38 It would ricochet off the mirror, and crack the mirror. 07:42 And we're dad, dad take it easy. 07:45 Get up woman and he would fire right over her head. 07:47 This is how we grew up. 07:53 What's interesting is, because I grew up in a crazy home, 07:57 it's even in a crazy home we say, and now this is crazy. 08:01 Everything you just said was crazy. 08:05 So that is your foundation? - yes! 08:09 Now you want to jump to 18? 08:11 At 18 years old what happened? 08:12 At 17 years old I took my first drink, and I was an 08:18 alcoholic from the minute I took it. 08:20 I don't know why, I felt so good when I drank 08:23 my first quart of beer. 08:25 May I just say, when I took my first drug, it was only 08:30 thing that ever felt normal to me. 08:32 Yeah, I felt completely normal and I wanted to celebrate. 08:36 I drank and I drank and I just loved it. 08:40 - It didn't matter all this craziness anymore, 08:42 I'm not a part of that anymore. - I was euphoric. 08:45 I remembered running through the snow and I was free. 08:47 I did know why, I just thought that. 08:50 - the reason I want to say that Dan, for people that are 08:53 watching that haven't been just sucked into drugs in that 08:55 way, is they do not know what is it that works. 08:58 Everything about it works. 09:00 For an alcoholic or druggie that's been through so much 09:03 dysfunction, when we find something that actually makes 09:06 us feel normal, it's like the solution has been found. 09:09 We've had other people on this program that have said 09:12 that, I felt like I found the answer to all my problems. 09:15 So I just want someone to understand that. 09:18 With this craziness, all of a sudden life is okay. 09:23 Yes, yes. - so you protect that addiction with everything in you 09:27 Yes, and I didn't want to be an alcoholic like 09:30 my friends, I thought were. 09:32 Because they drank all the time. 09:33 I had alcoholics that would drink with me every other day. 09:36 Or every couple of days and they would drink every day. 09:39 Eventually I got to where I was drinking everyday. 09:41 We were drinking cases, I was into beer then, we would 09:44 have a case in the middle of our car and drive around. 09:46 I would drink every single day and it felt so normal 09:49 until I got locked up. 09:52 I had like four felonies before I knew what happened. 09:56 Next thing I knew I was in jail and I thought how did I get 09:59 here? - that makes me laugh, when you come from such a 10:01 crazy environment it takes a while before you think, 10:04 I don't think this is working for me. 10:06 Yeah, exactly I had no idea, I was behind bars going 10:11 how did I get here? 10:12 People are yelling down the hall, and I was yelling down 10:15 there and my buddies were going you're going to be locked 10:17 up forever and you're going to rot in here. 10:20 You know I had no clue what was happening in my life. 10:22 I was just drinking and responding and reacting and 10:25 living life without any awareness or consciousness or 10:28 anything and as I got older. 10:31 I don't know if you want to go that far ahead? - yeah. 10:35 I got into pornography and different things. 10:38 - For a lot of people, and I'm sure that you know, and that 10:42 is a part of it, the whole world brings in our sexuality 10:45 and who we are in all those areas. 10:47 What is hard about drugs and alcohol and dysfunction, 10:50 being all on the table, is who we are sexually gets 10:54 so twisted, it really does get twisted. 10:57 It was really twisted for me and I remember talking in my 11:01 church, I remember trying to express that I felt like... 11:04 Wait a minute, where did church come in? 11:08 I'm like wait a minute we are in jail, and now in church. 11:11 So church did play a part in your life somewhere? 11:15 Yes, yes actually I grew up in a real strict, I call it 11:19 sin based religion, and it was very strict. 11:23 We sat in the back of the hall, we were among the church 11:26 goers that were weak, we were the weak churchgoers 11:29 so we sat in the back. 11:30 As I got older I left the church and then I returned to 11:35 the church, full-fledged and I was going to 11:38 serve God with everything. 11:39 - I'm not going online, stop doing the porn. 11:43 Yeah, yeah that was pretty crazy, I used to throw away 11:47 porn and then get back out the garbage. 11:49 One minute it was, I felt bad and I would even scream, 11:52 sometimes, I recorded myself, after a sexual thing 11:56 and I wanted myself to know how horrible it was. 11:59 I tapped myself. - I don't want to be here anymore. 12:03 Let me just, I want to drop in, I don't want to interfere with 12:07 what you're saying, but I just want to say what I learned 12:10 about God through all that craziness, in the middle of 12:13 the ugliest stuff we are involved in, that He is crazy 12:16 about us and wants to somehow take that kid that was 12:20 trying to get their mom not be crazy, to find their 12:23 safety and stuff in Him. 12:25 Even through all your pornography, I just want to say, 12:29 did you get a sense in any real way that God was there? 12:33 Or was it just a shame based religion at this point? 12:36 At that point it was just a shame based religion. 12:39 When I tried to tell people all I got was blank stares. 12:42 - somehow you are a nut? 12:45 Yeah, you are a nut, and people would back off. 12:47 I even had certain things removed and in some 12:50 organizations you have privileges, you can read the 12:53 Bible, or you can do different things as far as being 12:55 involved in the church. 12:57 Well once you have mentioned that you have this sexual 13:00 problem, they take those away. 13:02 Let's put a little note on the calendar here 13:04 and let's work on it. 13:06 What bothered me the most was I felt I was the only one 13:10 in this whole 5 million church that had this problem. 13:14 I really did. - nobody talked about it? 13:15 Nobody talked about it, nobody, I didn't hear anybody say 13:19 I struggled with that too. 13:21 So I felt like I was the only one, so what happened to me 13:25 was part of me, after you get enough privileges removed, 13:30 then you feel bad. 13:31 Then you say, boy if I talk about this much more I'm going 13:35 to be disfellowshipped or whatever. 13:37 Anyway what happened to me was I come compartmentalized, 13:40 I actually developed a split personality. 13:42 One part of me was in the church smiling and the other part 13:46 was involved in the sexual misconduct, more pornography. 13:52 That kept going and going and going. 13:54 - so you began lying and living a different life? 13:58 I felt like I was a part of Satan's, because you were 14:02 either in or out, there was no gray area in my church. 14:06 You are either with us all the way, 14:07 are you are in the world. 14:09 A friend of mine Bernie Andersen, who has been on the 14:12 program before wrote a book called, 14:13 ' Breaking the Silence,' and he is a Pastor and dealt with porn 14:17 until he was 14 and he finally had to say out loud, I have 14:20 to start saying something because men are dying thinking 14:23 they are the only ones out there. 14:24 I say men, but I know women have sexual addictions too. 14:28 On some of our addictions, especially if they get sexual, 14:31 we don't have anyone we can go and just say 14:35 are you dealing with this? 14:38 And do you know what I'm talking about? 14:39 I think that's a sin, I think you should be able to have 14:43 another man in the church to say sit down, this is what 14:46 I did, this is what helps me. 14:50 What I actually did was hid, and I found out as I went 14:54 to some of the 12 steps that a lot of men were hiding. 14:58 They had this problem, not everybody, 15:01 but a lot of men were hiding and they couldn't tell their 15:04 Pastors, they couldn't tell anybody in the church. 15:06 It was just this thing that you were dirty. 15:08 That really propelled me into thinking I was really evil, 15:12 I was really born of Satan and I really believe that. 15:16 I'm part of Satan's seed because I can't get a handle on this 15:18 thing and so I went down that road. 15:21 Of course it got worse. 15:23 I know it led to you have a relationship with a crack 15:27 addict and it really did get worse for you. 15:29 Lots of escorts, a guy introduced me to Escort X. 15:33 I really got lonesome, desperately lonesome and 15:37 I stopped drinking for a while, but I got really lonesome. 15:39 I was shy, I couldn't meet anybody, so I thought I would 15:42 have a drink and I didn't realize that I was an alcoholic 15:45 even at 40, so my drinks were doubles and I would have six or 15:49 seven doubles, drinking a fifth every other day. 15:52 When I drank, the next thing you know I would be like, 15:57 how would you say it, desperate. 16:01 I would find myself in this desperate situation. 16:03 So I let this guy, that was at the club, live with me and 16:05 he said, Heh, we don't have to sit here alone. 16:07 I said really, he said no we can have some girls come 16:10 over, girls come over what are you talking about? 16:12 We can actually have a girl for a $100 bucks or $150 bucks. 16:16 I said really. 16:18 I can imagine with that much loneliness and the stuff 16:20 you came from, that sounded great to you. 16:24 Of course I really want that and wanted that forever. 16:29 I drink because of that. 16:31 Yes, I was totally desperate, and what I didn't realize was 16:35 that I was moving down this progressively degrading path. 16:39 - I think a lot addicts don't know, and I hate to use your 16:44 testimony for such teaching moments, but a lot of us 16:47 don't know that when we grab something that is not real 16:51 life, I pay $150 bucks for somebody to spend the 16:53 evening, and when they leave I know that none of that was 16:56 real, and there is a brief reaction that is even worse. 16:59 So it is like this rebound thing that trashes us even 17:03 more, because now I know that I even will stoop to this. 17:06 Yes! - it's crazy. - yes. 17:09 I still want to say to you that there is a part of me 17:12 that wants to say I'm sorry for all that, because you 17:15 went through some tragic stuff. 17:17 What started to turn that around for you? 17:20 It sounds like it just keeps getting more intense, 17:23 it just keeps getting worse. 17:24 It finally came to its end I had several escorts that 17:28 I paid for and it was like you said, at the end of the 17:32 session, so to speak, you'd just be out money. 17:35 There was nothing lasting, there was no love and you 17:38 started to see it for that. 17:39 Even though the women started to change, at first they 17:43 smelled good and looked good. 17:45 After a while they started feeling dirty, you could 17:49 smell them and it was turning into a disgusting odor. 17:53 Honestly! So at the end I met a girl who was an escort 17:57 that wanted to quit. 17:59 She wanted to quit her profession. 18:00 - that's not you is it? - no, I wasn't. 18:03 I'm sorry go ahead, I'm like you look so sweet. 18:11 So she had a couple kids and I moved her out of this very 18:13 rough neighborhood, it was full of crack addicts and 18:16 heroine addicts, and I was rescuing this family from this 18:20 thing and I moved them out. 18:21 She resented me, hated me and I did know at the time she 18:24 was say crack addict. 18:26 She would disappear for four days at a time. 18:28 Within a short while I lost everything. 18:31 I lost my home, my cars, everything. 18:33 Literally I was just walking down the road. 18:35 What I can say about the sexual addiction was that it 18:39 was progressive, it does lead into. 18:42 The porn flips around and you get into different types 18:46 of porn, and different magazines, and different things, 18:50 and then you move into you wanting the real thing. 18:52 So once you have the real thing, then that came to it's end for 18:55 me. - the real thing that's not the real thing? 18:58 Yes! - because what you wanted was connection? 19:00 You want connection and love and it wasn't there, I saw it. 19:03 I finally had a girlfriend, regular girlfriend at the end 19:06 that said, I'm here for you and you are here for me. 19:10 I said okay, it was just sex and I thought this girl is 19:13 using me for sex and I was freaked out. 19:16 I thought she doesn't want me, she doesn't want me for 19:19 me, so I would take her out to a nice restaurant. 19:21 She said I told you don't look at me like that, 19:23 if you look at me with that love look in your eyes 19:25 I will throw you away, don't do that. 19:28 We are just here for this. 19:30 I thought, so the last time she came over, 19:32 she got undressed and I wasn't there, I was done. 19:37 I was done with my addiction, it has literally ran its 19:42 course, I hate to say that for me it took magazines, 19:45 down to this, down to that, down to the escorts until 19:49 finally I said, this isn't love. 19:51 To me, the most incredible thing for me about recovery 19:57 is that when we decide to get our needs met by an object 20:01 or an event, to buy a hooker, buy drugs, by stealing, by 20:06 gambling, by what ever, workaholism, when we decide 20:10 to get our needs met by that, is that we are not stupid, 20:13 we know that at the end of the day that no needs were met. 20:16 The grief reaction, the stuff that happens is tremendously 20:20 intense, the pain we are left with at the end of 20 years 20:24 is what we're left with. 20:25 - even more desperate! - more desperate and that is why 20:29 I think, for me, at 12 step groups says that you finally 20:34 realize I am powerless here. 20:35 I don't even know what to do, I do not know where to move 20:39 from here, I don't know how to do it anymore. 20:41 It's like every substance, alcohol, sex addiction, 20:44 it's all just an illusion, it is all a dead end road. 20:47 It is part of our flesh, it's part of experiencing this, 20:50 but they all leave us very empty and hopeless and 20:53 desperate. - definitely! 20:54 So I like to have a break, but before we have a break 20:58 I want you to introduce your wife to us. 21:01 Tell us how did you get from that desperate 21:04 place to being married? 21:06 This is my wife Angela. 21:09 So Angela you just heard all that what you think of it? 21:13 I know it seems crazy that I have no bad feelings to be 21:16 married to a husband who has been through all this. 21:18 I think what it is, is that I admire him with all my 21:21 heart that he has overcome this and he has surrendered to 21:24 God to such depth that he would let God heal this in him. 21:29 - so you met him in recovery? 21:31 I met him when he was fairly well surrendered and when 21:35 I prayed with him the first time, I could sense 21:39 positively the Holy Spirit so strong. 21:41 I thought wow, he's really rough, he's a rough diamond, 21:45 but he is precious beyond belief. 21:47 I could sense that strong Holy Spirit and it touched me. 21:52 I thought that was really amazing and as we grew together 21:56 and I saw him change more and more, still to this very 21:59 day, the surrendering to God got stronger and more often, 22:03 more situational where he surrendered each situation. 22:07 I saw him growing and I just well over with joy for what 22:11 God can do, because what He did in my life 22:13 was just as crazy. 22:14 What He did for Dan I stand in awe of God, 22:18 because how could this be? 22:20 God loves even this thing and He can turn it around. 22:24 Wow, I just well up with joy and talk about him every day 22:28 at my job, and about his surrender and overcoming. 22:32 What is funny to me as I listen to this, I think she 22:36 adores you. - I adore her too. 22:39 What happens is I think amazing, I'm looking at this 22:43 little boy at five that didn't have anybody seeing him, 22:47 been throughout your life saying I didn't have anybody. 22:50 I drink because of that loneliness, I paid someone to 22:53 be with me, and then God sends somebody to you that 22:56 just adores you, how fun is that? - What a gift. 22:59 We are going to take a break and come back and find out 23:03 from Angela, first of all where she came from, but I know 23:07 that part of the healing here was to deal with both of 23:10 them with their codependency issues. 23:14 Dan from back when he was a little boy and you will have 23:16 to come back and find out who Angela is and what stuff 23:19 she brought to the table. 23:21 Be right back! |
Revised 2014-12-17