Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Dan & Angela Clark
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00078B
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00:14 Welcome back, so no we are going to find out, Dan we
00:17 heard a lot of what got you from childhood through your 00:21 alcoholism, to your addictions, through the sexual stuff, 00:25 and to me the only thing I can see is this incredibly 00:29 lonely child underneath all that. 00:32 So when you guys meet, he has been in recovery for 00:35 awhile, you're back in the church? 00:38 No! - so where did you meet? 00:43 I guess I'll answer, actually he was needing to go to a 00:46 training center, my job sent me to the same training 00:50 center for finalization and certification type thing. 00:54 That is where we met, I had just literally a few days 00:57 before, filed for a divorce, unfortunately after 01:00 24 years of being married. 01:02 I came to find out that my husband, I had been involved 01:05 in a cult, and God Himself revealed that to me. 01:08 Let me interrupt for a minute, because I don't know 01:10 what you mean by a cult? 01:12 Well a cult would be, it could be any kind of form. 01:15 In a Christian way of looking at it, actually any cult, 01:19 they control you in different Marriott of ways. 01:22 They will use sleep deprivation, secrets, isolating you, 01:27 - how about yours? - all of that. 01:29 In my case it was channeling, I thought it was a prophet, 01:33 God speaking through him, but actually it was channeling 01:38 and for some reason I did not know that. 01:40 Like speaking to the dead? 01:41 You know it was using your body and allowing someone, 01:45 a spirit to speak through you and you use body to give 01:49 a message, they can say they were God, or they can say 01:52 they were a spirit and giving a message from God. 01:56 Or an angel or any of those things. 01:58 - So you just wanted to run? 02:00 Actually when I realized it wasn't of God, 02:03 I wanted nothing to do with it. 02:05 So I was trying to get my husband to get to the bottom 02:08 of this because if we are not following God, we do not 02:11 want to be going down this road. 02:13 He absolutely was not going to do that. 02:14 Not only that, but God revealed to me that my husband was 02:18 having an affair with my sister. 02:20 So I was like oh my, and I confronted him with that. 02:23 He first admitted it, then a few hours later he calls 02:26 back and says, God says I can't say that because it's not 02:29 really true and he never admitted it again. 02:33 So I was the bad guy. - what did your sister say? 02:36 She denied it as well, but he was living at her house at 02:40 the time and sleeping in her huge King size bed saying, 02:45 he was a prophet of God. 02:46 I believed that if he was a man of God, he would never 02:49 do such a thing to me. 02:50 If God was leading and directing him and I have been told 02:53 through the channeling that you are never to question 02:56 your husband as one of the closest men to me on the face 02:59 of this earth, he knows me better than anyone and what 03:02 he says is as if from me. 03:04 - I believe for a lot of people it is hard to realize 03:07 the extent of a deception, we had the case of Jim Jones where 03:11 everybody goes over and literally kills themselves. 03:14 We say well how does that happen? 03:15 It is one step after another, after another, 03:18 after another, and now you are fighting against all that 03:20 and saying, we have to get out. 03:23 But I met Dan right after I had realized this. 03:26 I was abused beyond belief at this point. 03:30 My body was dying and I knew it. 03:32 I think I had about a year left to live and I knew that. 03:35 I was so thankful, because I reached out to God. 03:37 I think God help me I feel so alone, because when they 03:41 isolate you, I ended up being the scape-goat. 03:44 So they isolated me and I felt like I had no one. 03:47 I was very alone and my husband had said to me a few days 03:50 before, Angela, you have succeeded in alienating everyone 03:53 against you, but don't worry honey, 03:56 I'll always be here for you. 03:58 So in other words I'm the only when you have now and yet 04:01 he was abusing me and I didn't really recognize that. 04:05 He was abusing me mentally, emotionally, spiritually, 04:09 I wasn't good enough, everything was wrong and 04:11 it was all my fault. 04:12 So God revealed this to me, I said, God I need someone 04:18 alongside me, I'm not going to make it. 04:20 I knew I wasn't going to make it, even though I felt he 04:23 hated me because they taught me God was very displeased 04:26 with me and he wasn't speaking to me and I was being very 04:30 isolated, but God within hours brought people alongside 04:34 me that very day. 04:36 In the middle of the night I had to go to the store and 04:38 I met women that both invited me to their churches. 04:41 I said okay, I think this is You answering my 04:43 prayers Lord, thank you. 04:45 I went to one of their churches and my eyes were opened 04:48 within 24 hours after having been to that church service. 04:51 They laid hands on me and prayed for me and I did know 04:54 the truth, and the truth set me free. 04:56 Then I met Dan literally just two days later. 04:59 He saw me all covered up and looking like a wounded bird, 05:04 damaged and he was as if God zoned his eyes in a me. 05:09 So he paid attention to me and we met there and began a 05:13 friendship and I have been reading 'Codependency No More' 05:17 and 'Boundaries' and then Dan picked up on that. 05:20 So you started to read the codependency stuff because of 05:24 your codependency in this relationship? - no! - why? 05:28 I don't know, first God led me to 'Boundaries' through 05:31 someone saying Angela, you have to get this book 05:33 'Boundaries' and somehow it stuck in me like I need that. 05:36 Somehow I knew I needed it, so I went to the library 05:38 and I checked it out. 05:39 Because the first thing in an abusive relationship, 05:42 or abusive churches, is they take all your boundaries 05:44 away and you have no right to your own space, 05:46 you have no right to your own thoughts, you have no 05:48 right to any of that stuff. 05:50 So your boundaries are really violated. 05:52 Yes and not only that but I was raised in that. 05:55 Our family never had any boundaries of any kind, 05:59 in any way. - so we didn't hear that as far as 06:03 how were you raised? 06:04 I was raised in a religious cults, a very large one. 06:09 Worldwide, world renowned and my father worked at it. 06:13 In fact my father is now working for Better Live TV in 06:18 Grants Pass Oregon. - I know that! 06:22 It was quite abusive, same kind of thing, they controlled 06:25 everything you did, one year it was okay to do this, 06:28 next year it was not. 06:29 They just control you and there is fear for leaving, 06:32 for being in a lake of fire, or hell, or whatever 06:35 you want to call it. 06:37 For leaving, they control everything you do. 06:40 So my parents were very much that way, and I forgot were 06:44 we were going with that? 06:45 So that set you up to get into this relationship with 06:49 your husband and the cult he was in? 06:51 Yes, right, exactly right. 06:52 The devil knew that I was vulnerable and that I was use 06:54 to obeying orders, not thinking for myself. 06:57 That is part of the problem with a cult, you don't use 07:00 your mind. - I know I'm smiling at that because I have 07:02 never obeyed orders in my life. 07:03 I think how does he do that? 07:07 I see that, that you were set up from a child to just 07:10 tell me what to do and I'll do it. 07:14 It sounds like I would do it with love, I'll try to do 07:17 it right, and I'll try to do it well. 07:18 Yeah that was my nature, I want to be pleasing that is 07:21 my nature and some people would say I don't care. 07:23 My sister for one, she is the opposite of me. 07:26 She went the rebel route, but I chose the submissive one. 07:31 That was the route I chose, neither one is really healthy, 07:36 they are both the wrong way, but you don't 07:38 know what else to do. 07:39 Yeah I tried to obey everything I was told to do and 07:42 I wanted to comply and make everyone pleased with me. 07:45 I wanted love and I wanted others to love me. 07:47 A wanted my father to love me and be proud of me. 07:49 God, the Church, I was always about what other people thought. 07:53 Most churches I had ever been in, it seems to me, 07:56 I notice that it's a problem. 07:59 At least that we need to not be so concerned... 08:02 so who told you to get the 'Boundaries' book, 08:05 the boundaries and codependency books? 08:07 One of the ladies at the church, I can't quite remember, 08:10 I remember that clicked with me. 08:11 It was like I need that, so I went right to the library 08:15 and I got it and start reading it. 08:16 That is where met Dan, and then I started realizing for 08:19 some reason someone invited me to a 12 step and told me 08:22 what it was, and I thought old that's for me too and I 08:25 went and signed up for that. 08:26 I went to the county and signed up for domestic violence, 08:29 why did I do that, I didn't have any idea I was being 08:32 abused, and I learned stuff there. 08:35 They gave me free counseling and I learned stuff there. 08:38 Like she gave me a book and she told me about 08:39 'Codependency No More' and I went and got that book. 08:42 So then Dan started backing me up by saying Angela, blah, blah, 08:47 blah your mother is doing this and that. 08:48 It's okay to say no, remember your reading that in the book. 08:51 Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's boundaries. 08:53 So talk about that for people that do not know what 08:56 codependency is, either Dan or Angela. 08:58 What would you say, what is it? 09:04 It seems like trying to fix everything, being needy, 09:06 totally consumed by people outside of yourself. 09:10 As if you are their savior, your their protector, your their 09:14 what ever and you are never at home. 09:17 You are always out here. 09:18 So her mother had that pull on her where she was always 09:22 concerned as if her mother was happy with her or not. 09:25 She hadn't cut that string so to speak. 09:30 I was taught to stand to stay in my body and I had 09:32 a therapist say, you're outside your body. 09:35 Sit down and feel the floor and be grounded. 09:37 You are out here in everybody else's life, all you have 09:40 been talking about is the girls at work, and people over 09:42 here, he was like lets come home. 09:44 And I was like oh, so I learned. 09:46 - What a gift to teach people that, 09:48 it's how to stay present. 09:50 So I stayed at home so when I met Angela I saw her, 09:54 we would be riding from downtown Denver back home 09:57 and she would be getting peoples numbers, the homeless exchanging 10:00 numbers in all this and I'm like, stay over here. 10:03 Just look at that guy over there, 10:04 if you know what I mean. 10:05 So I could be totally centered in myself and at peace, 10:10 and know they are having their journey and I had a right 10:14 relationship, if I needed to serve in some way I could. 10:18 But it was a choice as opposed to just a reactive, 10:21 I have to fix everybody and take care of everybody. 10:24 Which is what I think with Angela being the oldest, 10:27 sometimes the oldest, she raised all her sisters. 10:30 She was her mom's right-hand person. 10:33 - Dan, like you said in a lot of churches, they look at 10:37 that as a great quality because we need potluck done, 10:40 we need church secretary done, and we need to get 10:43 the directory done, so you find somebody that is 10:45 co-dependent and you think Amen. 10:48 Can I say one other thing? - Yeah! 10:50 When I first heard their blood is on my hands in my 10:54 church, when I heard that I felt like I had to save the 10:58 world, I felt everywhere I go we were told to hand out 11:02 this, and preach, and I believe we're that way. 11:05 We are to be loving and joyful, but to rescue everybody, 11:09 I didn't have the perspective right that their job is to 11:13 come to God and surrender, and me, I'm to be a light, 11:16 if you know what I mean. 11:18 So I didn't have to fix. - nor play God. 11:21 So even with the dysfunction from your household that 11:24 just put much pressure on you. - guilt. 11:28 I can't rescue my mom and now you tell me I have to 11:30 rescue the whole world or else I'm guilty. 11:32 I was at a grocery store and totally shamed like 11:35 I didn't do God's will today. 11:37 That sounds like so much pressure. 11:39 It was enormous pressure, I had a lot of religious 11:42 pressure on me when I was young, actually when I was 11:46 a little older, we had to go door to door. 11:48 I went out for an hour, I felt like I needed to be out 11:52 two hours, I went out two hours, then I felt like I could 11:56 have been out three hours because we were told at that 12:00 time the only thing God accepted was our absolute best. 12:03 So from a codependent, I had this huge burden on me to 12:08 every moment be saving and rescuing and so religion 12:12 just really wore me down. 12:15 I am so glad you said that, a lot of people do feel that 12:19 in their recovery it has to be the absolute best, God says 12:22 the best of the best of us are a mess. 12:26 So He is even saying, take a breath, I love you, let Me 12:30 step into your life and let you have peace with all that 12:33 stuff, let Me fill your heart up, and that type of thing. 12:36 It sounds like both of you have gotten trapped in 12:39 organizations that didn't give you that message at all. 12:42 Go ahead. - our Scripture that they told us over and 12:45 over was seek righteousness, seek meekness, and you might 12:48 be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger. 12:51 So it was like we had to be perfect, and we were always told 12:54 consider your circumstances, consider your circumstances 12:58 if you can spend 60 hours a month or 90 hours a month on 13:02 door to door, then that would be acceptable to God. 13:05 So if you don't get that time? 13:08 - you weren't doing your best, 13:11 and only your best was good enough. 13:13 So we had to live for that, there were so much shame and 13:17 fear that I actually got sick. 13:19 I need to let Angela talk, but I actually had like a lump 13:22 in my chest from religious shame and guilt because of my 13:25 co-dependent view and how I lived that and tried to carry 13:28 it out in religion, trying to save everybody. 13:31 You know I'm coming from like I'm a heroine addict, 13:34 I'm a druggie and my family is druggies. 13:36 I have no religion at all, I meet God in a drug house 13:39 trying to kill myself and He absolutely adores me. 13:42 So when I hear from your background, I think it must be 13:46 harder to get a better view of God, or a more honest view 13:49 of God because of what you have been told. 13:52 Yeah our God was angry. 13:53 I just want to say, in my situation it was the same 13:56 thing, with my growing up years I was in one cult and 13:58 I found the Lord during Billy Graham in the middle of 14:01 two cults, and then I was involved in another one with 14:03 my husband, but both of those was the same thing where 14:07 you were not good enough, the second was so severe it was 14:10 almost like you believe all these things and you have 14:13 to have a lot of faith, if you don't have enough faith it 14:16 is not perfect faith then you are not good enough and God 14:19 is not pleased with you. 14:20 Because in the last cult, since I didn't have enough 14:23 faith everyone blamed me for all these things that God 14:25 couldn't bless us with because I didn't have enough 14:28 faith, you know something I was the only one in the group 14:30 who did everything we were told to do. 14:32 Write 21 times a day, visualize, see, smell, taste, 14:37 do posters and notebooks full of all the pictures full 14:41 of everything that God is wanting you to have. 14:44 You just have to have enough faith and we are all going 14:46 to have it, were going to go on cruises together as 14:48 a family because I am believing for that. 14:50 We promised our kids we would do it, and all Angela has 14:53 to do is do her part because we are there with our faith, 14:57 but Angela your the problem here. 14:59 Since you didn't measure up, in the end my kids to 15:02 this day hate me because we did not get all of those 15:05 things, those material things. 15:07 I'm not a material girl, never was, 15:10 but I was told to be pleasing to God, 15:12 He wanted us to have these things. 15:15 He wants to bless us in abundance. 15:17 Therefore I need to have the proper perfect faith. 15:20 So again perfection is always there and it was very sick 15:25 situation and to this day my kids don't talk to me. 15:29 It has been 6 years, 5 and 1/2 years since I've had 15:33 a relationship with them. 15:34 I bet that causes you a lot of pain. 15:36 No, at first it was hard, but God is good. 15:41 He will give you the grace to deal with what ever 15:44 you have to go through, no matter what it is. 15:46 To lose two kids to death, I don't know what it is for you 15:49 but all I know is God gives you the grace to handle it, 15:52 and He just literally it took me some time, but I eventually 15:56 was able to let go and let God, you know what I mean. 15:59 - trust Him with it. - yes because I can't control 16:01 everything, the codependency comes here again. 16:03 I want to fix, I want to heal, I want to go rescue. 16:08 Even the word control is for codependence if I can control 16:12 everything then everybody will be okay, and happy, 16:15 and do the right thing and it will just be. 16:18 Instead of God saying, whoa, whoa, whoa are you 16:20 forgetting that you are not God? 16:22 Are you forgetting that I am God and that I can take 16:24 care this better than you can. I love them more than you do. 16:27 I'm like wow God, I'm so sorry, you're right. 16:31 As you guys met, as you got into a relationship, 16:34 you were a head of her a little bit and working with 16:37 those codependent issues. 16:39 So when did you guys realize that you are falling in love 16:43 and what things did you learn about not being 16:47 codependent with each other? 16:48 Can I say, when we came together, Dan was watching me. 16:52 I was cutting the ties at every break in this training 16:57 center that we had. 16:58 He was watching me, like God caused him to pay attention 17:01 to me and I finally said do you need to use 17:04 the phone, I'm sorry. 17:06 He would say no, no, no can I get you some coffee or 17:08 doughnut and I'm like okay sure. 17:10 I'm noticing, oh wow he's watching me. 17:13 Then I said, Sir can I just tell you my story? 17:16 He said ah, sure go right ahead. 17:19 So I told him my whole crazy story that I had never 17:22 told anyone my story. 17:24 I had just filed divorce three days before at this point. 17:27 I'm telling him my story and he melted, and then he gave 17:31 me a hug, and he was a hardened guy at this point. 17:33 He was hurt really bad, lonely but he had just pray the night 17:37 before, God you know what? 17:39 I've gone in all the wrong places looking for women. 17:42 He will tell you this story, but I'm sick of it. 17:45 I surrender to you God, and I don't know where she is 17:48 but You do, and the very next day he met me. 17:51 Yeah, God is good. 17:54 All I can think of, who would damaged such a sweet woman? 17:58 She was really in bad shape, she was what would you call 18:02 it, detaching, disassociated, and I thought she is so 18:07 Sweet, who hurt her like that? 18:08 Who helped her lose herself? How did she lose herself? 18:11 I think it was incredible that you could even see that 18:14 in her, who wounded her? 18:16 It sounds like part of you, that was such a helper 18:21 throughout your life, even with your mom, wanted to say, 18:23 can I help in anyway? 18:26 Yes, absolutely I did want to help, just be there and 18:29 support her in any way I can. 18:30 I did want to hurt her anymore. 18:33 I wanted to say, what is amazing too is that Dan 18:36 and I were both raised in the same kind of religion, 18:39 believe it or not. 18:40 Even though his was different than mine, it was very, 18:44 very similar. - so you guys understood each other? 18:46 Yeah, we really, really did and there was no one else 18:49 that could have understood me like Dan. 18:51 I stand in awe of that because it is so complicated that 18:57 it would take somebody that understood me and where 19:00 I came from, and likewise for me to understand him in order 19:03 to help each other, but God saw I needed healing and 19:05 He saw that Dan needed healing. 19:07 There was no one on the face of the earth that could do 19:10 what Dan could do for me, and likewise what 19:12 I could do for him. 19:13 He needed the love and the tenderness, because he had not 19:17 received that as a child. 19:19 I needed his expertise, he had been trained by a woman, 19:23 who he calls his angel. 19:25 For five years she mentored him, he had been very 19:29 dysfunctional in the world and once he realized he had 19:33 grown up in a very dysfunctional church and family, 19:36 who mentored him how to function in the world, 19:39 to communicate, to speak, to just live. 19:44 He didn't even know the basics of living and how to 19:47 survive in the world, and she mentored him. 19:50 Was she like a counselor? 19:52 Yes, sort of, I was doing some work for a guy next door 19:55 and he said, we have to work for this lady. 19:57 I did some work in she looked at me, and I looked at her, 20:00 she was very intimidating with this big black gown and 20:03 a big red scarf and people ran when she came 20:06 down the street, and she paid me for what 20:08 a contractor didn't pay me. 20:10 I said you don't have to give me all this money, 20:12 and she says no I want to. 20:14 Anyway she worked with me for five years and I didn't know 20:17 her, she said my leaders Christ that's all she told me. 20:19 I never saw her go to church and I was like who are these 20:22 people, finally I meet her husband two years later. 20:24 He was a retired anesthesiologist. 20:27 He came up to me at McDonald's, and the lady would always 20:30 show up with a pencil and paper and say we are going to 20:33 work on codependency today, work or work on. 20:34 I'm going what is that and what is this? 20:38 But this lady was a real angel and I meet her husband and 20:40 he has this big beard and I was intimidated, I thought 20:43 I hope he doesn't think I'm with his wife or something. 20:46 He came over and gives me this big hug for five minutes. 20:49 I'm thinking, who are these people? 20:50 He said we love you and he is rubbing on my back. 20:53 I finally asked, what do you guys want with me? 20:56 He said our job is to love and your job is to love. 20:59 I was like whoa, and they took me in for four years 21:02 and helped me through so many things. 21:05 May I tell you one-story? - yes, I want to say is 21:08 that God does that for us and knew that you didn't get 21:11 love, He wanted to put you in an environment where people 21:14 love for no reason other than for your healing. 21:17 Yes, and she was right there. 21:21 One day I would call her, this is how the situation 21:24 worked, I called her one-day and I said they're going 21:26 to fire me at my job. 21:28 She said take out your pencil, and I took out this pencil 21:30 and I said, they're going to fire me. 21:32 She said why? I went through three pages of why they 21:35 were going to fire me, and I'm going to get headhunters 21:37 and find another job. 21:38 She said, okay that's great now put it away. 21:41 The next day my boss told me I was the most wonderful guy 21:44 on the crew and this and that. 21:46 I called her back and I said, hey, my boss just told me 21:49 I was great, I was doing a great job, and dah, dah, dah. 21:52 She said, now read your notes. 21:54 I read their going to fire me because of that, I know they 21:57 are, I better get another job. 21:59 She said she know what Dan, that's crazy thinking. 22:03 That hallucination and that's the kind of sickness you 22:06 have, so what I want you to do before you ever come to a 22:10 conclusion, I want you to go over and ask that person 22:13 is this the way it is? 22:15 Never call me again and give me this story, this illusion 22:18 that you made up about this thing. 22:20 So I started learning, she was teaching me like that. 22:23 That is how me and Angela worked, I didn't tell her all 22:26 the things, I would let her get into the drama, 22:30 the codependency. - you know Dan I have to say. 22:33 I have attachment disorders and bonding disorders, 22:37 so I know what it feels like to never feel like you fit 22:40 in, or to all the sudden make all these scenarios up in 22:42 your head when you walk into a place. 22:44 Wouldn't it be incredible if everyone, that has 22:47 that issue, that has those struggles, 22:49 heard what you just said? 22:50 You can literally challenge what you think, and that is 22:54 what she was teaching you to do. 22:55 It's amazing! - yes and she did so many things, 22:58 she was totally accepting me. 23:01 It was like she was never going to abandon me. 23:03 If you got that problem let's work on it. 23:06 I'm like, work on it, 23:07 I was hiding if you know what I mean. 23:09 So we went down to Barnes & Noble's and she bought 23:13 all these books, about $100 worth of books which had to 23:15 do with sexual addiction. 23:17 She put them on the table, she goes now you can tell me 23:19 about what you have done, even thought about it or done 23:22 it, that was the opened door. 23:24 I wasn't telling nobody, so I tell her. 23:27 She starts to chuckle, let's take the books back to 23:30 Barnes & Noble's and let's work on this thing together. 23:34 She handed me a tape from a Christian minister that 23:38 talked about that desire, that sexual desire, 23:40 how God created us to become fruitful and become many 23:43 and fill the earth. 23:44 That desire was part of being natural. 23:48 - it wasn't twisted. - it wasn't. 23:50 That's the way God created you to be! 23:52 Yes, and I went all my and that shame lifted off me, 23:55 and I could move, and my chest lightened up. 23:58 She just looked at me and said, something's wrong, 24:00 you're bound up, what's wrong? 24:02 She told me you could either have done it or thought 24:04 about it and I thought I could tell her anything. 24:07 And I could, this was the relationship we have with 24:09 this lady, it was totally wide open. 24:12 It was the strangest thing. 24:14 And for the first time in your life it sounds like 24:17 someone allowed you to get a sense of what is normal 24:19 and not normal, because you didn't get that as a child. 24:21 You did not get that growing up when you get into 24:24 a religion that didn't give you that. 24:26 Then you got twisted, so you didn't get it when you are 24:29 on the streets until someone said, let's unfold this. 24:32 Yes and actually I got to thank the gentleman who made 24:36 the tape, he was a monk in a monastery, almost 90 years 24:40 old, and I said thank you, you help me when I was 18. 24:44 He was like, well pass it on, he said just pass it on. 24:48 It was the most unbelievable thing, but that tape was 24:51 it totally undid me, it was like Awwwh, 24:55 and it saved my life I believe. 24:57 I would like to go to questions, but before we do 24:59 I would like you to say what are some of the number one 25:03 things that helped you to come out of all that damage, 25:08 I know this woman allowing you to just talk. 25:10 Talk about for someone that is in that damage, what 25:13 things could they do to maintain or to get into recovery? 25:18 Do you want me to talk right now? - yeah! 25:20 I would say find someone you can talk to. 25:23 Find a good 12 step, or a good church where people are 25:28 open and honest and safe. 25:29 There are a lot of unhealthy 12 steps. 25:33 There are all lot of unhealthy churches, if I might say 25:35 that, and find somebody that is for real. 25:38 Someone that you can talk to and open up with and share. 25:41 If they are accepting of you, and they love you and you 25:43 can see that love of God in them, that is the main thing. 25:46 It's interesting to me about that. 25:49 For a lot of us we end up, in our damage, in our fear, 25:53 in our depression, anger, addiction or whatever it is, 25:57 we get more and more isolated, and 26:00 sometimes we try to heal in that isolation. 26:02 We are meant to be in community so I like what 26:05 you are saying, find some group, find some person 26:08 and start to reverse what you did to get yourself 26:11 into all this sadness. 26:13 Reverse that, it is hard at first, it's hard to trust, 26:16 it's hard to come out, it's hard to connect, and we look 26:19 crazy, were coming out with all this junk. 26:22 Come out anyway. 26:24 - absolutely, she was a lifesaver for me. 26:27 What I want to say, for people that are looking for 26:30 counseling coming out of crazy situations, for a female 26:33 try to find a female for a male try to find a male. 26:35 You lucked out in that she hung in there with you and 26:38 that works but sometimes it can turn on you. 26:40 So if you can, do the same-sex counseling. 26:43 I want to open it up to questions, because I know we 26:47 have some questions in the café. 26:49 Rachel you had a question. 26:52 My name is Rachel and I am a recovering addict and we 26:55 deal with a lot, I guess my question is for both of you. 26:58 You mentioned something about spiritual abuse. 27:02 We came across it a little, the spiritual abuse and do you 27:07 have any advice to offer, because I was never spiritually 27:11 abused at all and I heard that is a tough one to deal 27:14 with, so my question is how do you approach somebody 27:18 who has been spiritually abused to turn their 27:21 life over to Jesus? 27:23 I guess first of all let them know that God loves 27:27 them no matter what. 27:28 A lot at times religious abuse has to do with shame 27:30 and guilt and that you are not good enough to God. 27:34 To help them to understand that God loves them no 27:37 matter what, I would suggest using the prodigal son story 27:40 a lot, and that is Dan's favorite story in the Bible. 27:43 For people that don't know that story, what is the story? 27:46 It's about coming back home. 27:49 The prodigal son story was one of the trilogies that 27:52 Jesus gave in the New Testament. 27:53 There was the dropped coin, the lost sheep, and the 27:56 prodigal son that wanted to go on his own journey. 27:58 - partying, acting out. 28:01 Yeah, he wanted to live his own life. 28:03 His father represented God and it was the illustration 28:04 Jesus was giving to teach. 28:06 So his father told the son to go live your life, 28:10 it's your slice of the pie, go live your life. 28:13 The interesting thing about it was, the father still 28:16 loved him while he was on that journey, while he was out 28:19 there doing all these things. 28:20 He got in trouble with loose women and 28:22 he did this and he did that. 28:23 He finally ended up with the pigs, the pigs wouldn't even 28:27 give him something to eat. 28:29 While he was in that desolate, down position he started 28:33 to get some awareness. 28:35 I'm in trouble here, oh, if only I could go back home to 28:38 my father, he had no idea that God loved him. 28:40 That his father loved him unconditionally. 28:43 So when he came back home there was this instant 28:46 restoration, we he back home his father's eyes lit up 28:49 and they embraced, he put a coat on him and a ring and 28:52 they had a big meal. 28:54 There was no judgment, no harsh judgment that you were 28:57 bad, you were no good. 28:59 You somehow have to pay and makeup for what you did. 29:03 You have to be sorry enough. 29:04 You had to do penitence. - It was none of that. 29:08 It was just saying I am so glad you are home and that 29:12 you are safe, let me feed you. 29:14 That is healing, so when you are that kind of person 29:18 and for that person that has been struggling religiously, 29:21 when you are the unconditional love, the unconditional 29:24 love of God is flowing through you it is there for them. 29:28 They see the Christ, they see God. 29:30 So when we are that, that is the healing. 29:33 When we say we love you, you're back home, thank God you 29:36 are home and the Bible says there's more rejoicing in 29:38 heaven over one and we are that important. 29:42 The other two trilogies there was actually a search that 29:45 went on, the lady searched all over for the coin until 29:47 she found it and there was great rejoicing. 29:51 There wasn't shame, or you bad coin your lost. 29:56 Or the other story with the sheep, we are that important 29:59 that God would search for us and try to find that sheep. 30:02 Then when the connection is made there is huge rejoicing. 30:06 So the shame people have, you know what I mean? 30:09 You are doing bad, you're outside of religion. 30:12 You know that he didn't even say, old dad I'm so sorry 30:15 please forgive me, before, the dad was already saying, 30:17 son I love you and I'm so that your back. 30:20 We think we have to do these big gyrations to get God's 30:23 love back, I remember one time that God helped me to 30:26 know, Angela I miss you, just knowing that God was 30:29 missing me, here I was quilting myself over something for days. 30:33 I wouldn't connect with Him again, because I had this 30:35 shame and guilt about something. 30:37 All of a sudden I got it, God was trying to say, Angela 30:40 quit wasting all this time, I miss you. 30:43 Let's get this out of the way, come on I'm miss you. 30:46 I thought, that was it for me, when I make a mistake 30:49 I apologize and it is over and we are back together. 30:51 What I have to say is, I can see that clearly in both 30:54 of your stories, you believe that God loves you and you 30:57 know that He has forgiven you and you receive that and 30:59 it has been healing. 31:01 Thank you for joining us I think it has been amazing 31:03 to have you here. 31:04 I hope you can come again. - thank you! 31:06 We'll be right back, I have a few more things I would 31:09 like to say, so stay with us. |
Revised 2014-12-17