Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Mike Carducci, Pr. Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000004
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00:09 Homosexuality and the Bible, are they compatible?
00:13 Next on Coming Out. 00:59 Welcome once again to Coming Out. 01:01 This is a special television series, 13 parts, 01:04 produced by White Horse Media 01:06 dealing with controversial issues, 01:08 dealing with sexuality, homosexuality, 01:11 lesbianism and the Bible. 01:14 I'm here again with two of the three cofounders 01:17 and maybe there were more cofounders, 01:19 I'm not sure of Coming Out Ministries 01:21 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Mike Carducci. 01:24 Again thank you for being here. 01:26 In the first couple programs 01:28 we basically listened to your stories, 01:31 we heard your testimonies 01:32 of how you came out of the closet, 01:36 you chose to go into an openly homosexual lifestyle 01:41 but then you came out of that lifestyle 01:45 and from what I understand one of the key catalysts 01:48 to that transition was the book, it was the Bible. 01:53 And our topic today is called the "Owner's Manual" 01:57 where we will be discussing God's book. 02:00 Is the Bible, is it a manual and is it an owner's manual 02:04 and before we even look at that, 02:06 you know, how important is an owner's manual anyway? 02:09 Like to someone who owns a car, 02:13 is it important that we have one? 02:15 That we read it? That we follow it? 02:18 Most people don't read it anyway 02:19 but what do you think? 02:20 Oh, yeah. 02:21 I probably wouldn't have blown the engine of my car 02:23 when I was 23, 24 if I'd have read it. 02:27 So you had a mishap? Yeah, I didn't check the oil. 02:30 You didn't check the oil? Right. 02:32 And it was a costly mishap, wasn't it? 02:33 Yeah. 02:35 I have two cars down right now, 02:38 probably would not have been in their condition 02:41 had I really studied the owner's manual. 02:43 Yeah. 02:44 I mean, most people don't read owner's manuals, 02:46 and I guess that's probably the way it is with the Bible. 02:49 Most people really don't read the Bible 02:51 but, you know, 02:52 the owner's manual is very important 02:55 at least the principles are even if you don't read it. 02:58 The principle is that if it says 03:00 your car is designed for unleaded gas 03:03 that you don't put diesel in 03:06 and there's other issues as well, 03:08 you mentioned the oil and the water and the gas. 03:12 Everything has to be done in the right proportions. 03:14 That's right if you, we're told to use oil, 03:18 water and gas in our vehicles 03:19 and if we put gasoline in the crank case 03:24 and water in the fuel tank and you know, mix those up, 03:30 we're using all of the right components 03:32 and all of the right ingredients 03:34 but if we're not following that manual 03:36 we'll destroy that vehicle. 03:39 And you've already learnt that with your car. 03:41 One of your cars. Oh, yeah. 03:43 Now let's go to the Bible. 03:45 What does the Bible say about the owner 03:49 and about how this is a manual, 03:51 so I think you have a couple of scriptures, 03:53 Bible verses you like to share, Mike. 03:55 Genesis 1:1, it says 03:57 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." 03:59 And so God there is the very author 04:01 of the owner's manual and then Genesis 1:27 says, 04:07 in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 04:09 "So God created man in his own image, 04:12 in the image of God created he him, 04:14 male and female created he them." 04:17 You know, this really strikes me 04:19 when I had the gender dysphoria. 04:21 It wasn't until I was in my 40s 04:23 that God showed me, I was constantly praying 04:25 that God would make me a female 04:27 and really what He spoke to me in my 40s, 04:30 long after that issue had passed is that 04:32 God said "no, I didn't make a mistake, Mike. 04:34 I made you male, and because of that 04:37 I had trouble all my adult life, 04:39 until just recently even considering myself a man, 04:42 I got it that I was male but even recognizing 04:45 that God has been affirming that masculinity for me 04:48 since I have been walking with Him for the past 13 years 04:51 and isn't that amazing to be in your 50s 04:54 and finally realize that indeed I am a man. 04:57 What is dysphoria? 04:58 You mentioned that word, you lost me on that. 04:59 That's the gender confusion. 05:01 I wanted to be a girl, 05:02 I thought that God had made a mistake, 05:03 I prayed that God would make me a girl 05:06 and it wasn't until probably I was 47 05:08 and chopping wood in my front yard 05:10 and God was just affirming and saying no, Mike, 05:13 I never made a mistake, 05:14 you were always intended to be a male 05:16 and that even before the earth was formed 05:17 God knew me and He knew me as a male. 05:20 And as He washed that over me I realized that my confusion, 05:25 a little kid didn't know that that God had made a mistake 05:28 with that, you know, he was a girl trapped in a boy's body. 05:31 But that God showed me through His word 05:34 and through relationship that God didn't make mistakes 05:37 and that there was a twisting in this rope, 05:39 these knots that have been knotted up 05:42 and as He started to untangle these knots 05:44 in my walk with Him, I realized indeed 05:47 that I was intended to be a male. 05:50 And the verse you read the first verse says 05:52 in the beginning God, so that establishes 05:55 that it all started a long time ago with God, 06:00 He's the one that set this up and Pastor Ron, 06:02 I think you have a verse that talks about 06:04 not only how God, is the owner 06:06 but He has a book which is His manual. 06:09 Yes, I really like the-- this subject in this concept 06:13 that the Word of God is His manual, 06:18 because He not only created us 06:20 He gave us instruction on how to maintain our lives 06:23 to be healthy and joyful 06:26 and productive and have fulfilling lives. 06:29 And this text is just an anchor text for me 06:33 because it helps me understand why certain things cross me 06:39 and conflict with me in my fallen nature. 06:44 First, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. 06:49 "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God" 06:52 who is our Creator, the owner 06:55 "and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, 06:59 for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 07:03 It goes onto say "That the man of God may be perfect, 07:05 thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 07:08 Since so God's plan is that we will follow His word 07:12 to maintain what He created us 07:15 to be in the first place and as I read this 07:18 I see that if I studied the Word of God, 07:22 and I do not accept reproof, and I do not accept correction, 07:27 I really cannot call myself a Christian 07:30 because that's the whole purpose. 07:32 The Word of God is to keep me on track 07:35 because in my humanity I will automatically deviate 07:39 and derail and it's the Word of God 07:42 through reproof and correction and instruction 07:45 that informs us and keeps us on track. 07:48 And it is God's book, it says that it is God's book, 07:51 it says that all scripture, which will be Old Testament 07:54 and New Testament is given by inspiration of God. 07:58 This is God's book for those different things 08:00 and I heard somebody once say, 08:02 that God gave us the Bible to teach us doctrine 08:05 which is what's right to give us correction 08:07 to show us where we maybe wrong 08:09 and then to or to reprove us, 08:12 He gives us for doctoring what's right reproof 08:15 where we maybe wrong, correction help us to get right 08:18 and then instruction in righteousness 08:21 helps us to stay right once we get right. 08:23 So it's really, it's complete. It's complete. 08:26 Okay, so establishing that based on the book and we, 08:29 we just are not ashamed to publicly say 08:33 that we believe these words, 08:35 we believe in this book that God is the owner 08:38 this is His manual and His book tells us 08:40 what's best for us just like the owner's manual of a car, 08:44 tells us what kind of gasoline to put in the engine. 08:47 So let's go-- let's go back we're in the gas tank. 08:50 Let's go back to the beginning 08:52 and establish what does the Bible say, 08:54 the owner's manual say about male, 08:58 female marriage, what's the original plan? 09:01 And I think you read a verse a little bit ago 09:03 can you read that again. 09:04 Yes. Genesis 2:24. 09:05 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, 09:09 and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh." 09:13 Okay, and you previously also read chapter 1 verse 27, 09:17 that says that God made man in his own image, 09:20 and in his image he made male and he made female 09:24 and that verse 2:24 describes the plan 09:28 for a male and a female. 09:30 Right it says a man will leave his father, 09:33 there's the male father, and his mother the female 09:37 and then he will then cleave 09:39 or be united to his wife and the two will become one 09:43 and that's called marriage right. 09:45 Well, not only that it also establishes the family, 09:48 we'll leave the father and the mother, 09:50 establishing that that's the family. 09:51 Good, yeah parents and children. 09:53 Now, is that verse relevant for us today? 09:56 Absolutely. Absolutely. 09:57 It was written I don't know 09:58 how many thousands of years ago, 10:00 Moses wrote that, is it relevant for our time? 10:07 It speaks to me more even at this very moment 10:10 just the significance of leaving 10:12 the father and the mother 10:14 it's already established what the proper family is, 10:17 there's a statistic that says that now 10:19 that there are more single mothers raising children 10:23 that can never be reversed. 10:24 And so there are so many homes that are fatherless, 10:28 it makes sense that people are having confusion 10:31 and a lot more trauma and difficulty 10:35 in finding out their ways. 10:36 Because little girls need a father to be, 10:39 you know, protected 10:40 and to be told they are princesses 10:43 and little boys need a father to understand 10:45 how to form masculinity and how to establish that. 10:49 And so now because we have 10:51 so few of fathers in the home 10:53 as well as even in Christian society, 10:55 you know, the men that are struggling 10:57 or that are outside the home 10:58 I think that it's created a lot of problems 11:01 in out society today. 11:03 I'm sure, Pastor Ron, you believe that as well. 11:06 Yes, and what we're reading in Genesis 11:09 of course is God's original plan in a perfect world, 11:12 a perfect environment and it was not His plan 11:14 that we should ever deviate from that. 11:17 And so today, especially as we are Christians, 11:21 we should be looking at His original plan 11:23 because the whole plan of salvation is to restore us 11:28 to what He created us to be in the first place. 11:31 So Christians should focus a lot on Genesis 11:35 the first few chapters of Genesis to see 11:38 how we can accept, reprove, correction 11:41 and instruction to come back to what 11:44 the plan was in Eden in the beginning. 11:46 Right, okay. Powerful. 11:48 Now, we need to look at the tough texts where this, 11:52 you know what this whole series is about. 11:54 And there are-- now that we've read the plan, 11:57 what about other verses 11:59 that describe deviation from that plan, 12:01 let's look at probably two of the most 12:03 controversial texts of all. 12:06 One of them is in Leviticus, 12:08 and one of them is in Romans, one in the old, 12:10 one in the new in the owner's manual. 12:13 So let's just look at them 12:16 and then I want you to talk about them 12:17 and share your opinions and then we'll just, 12:20 you know, look at the facts. 12:22 Well, you know, one of the big arguments today 12:27 from the pro gay community and pro gay Christians 12:33 is this thing about gay monogamy. 12:36 Surely God can approve of gay monogamy, 12:40 it's the, the flagrant abuse of sexuality, 12:46 the promiscuity that is wrong 12:50 but yet gay monogamy should be okay, well-- 12:54 Isn't it the idea that like we have male and female 12:56 in the beginning that the idea 12:58 now is that you can still have a male and a male, 13:01 and a female and a female 13:02 as long as they love each other as long as they're committed 13:06 and as long as they're monogamous 13:08 and they're faithful to their partner, 13:09 right, that's the idea. 13:12 And of course, having been there 13:14 I mean, we have difficulty recalling any relationships 13:19 that we've ever known that were monogamous. 13:22 It's almost like the straw man or something 13:25 it's hard to believe that really exists, 13:29 but perhaps it does but even if it does, 13:31 does that make you right? 13:32 How does God feel, how does He view it? 13:34 And in Leviticus 20:13, he really spells it out 13:39 in no uncertain terms He says, 13:42 "If a man also lie with mankind, 13:45 as he lieth with a woman," and that would be 13:48 a man and a man, that's monogamy, 13:52 " If a man also lie with mankind, 13:54 as he lieth with a woman, both" so that's two of them, 13:57 " both of them have committed an abomination." 14:00 It states very clearly to me 14:03 that gay monogamy is abomination. 14:05 If gay monogamy exists even then it's abomination, 14:11 it is outside of God's plan. 14:13 So some say that this text 14:14 is not applying to faithful homosexuality 14:18 it's just applying to aberration, 14:22 where they're not faithful or it's not consensual 14:25 or whatever argument is being used 14:27 but you're saying that that's really not what the text says. 14:29 Well, if you look at the owner's manual 14:31 and read it the way it reads. 14:35 It's so succinct, it is so clear. 14:39 It's hard to, I mean you really have to wrestle 14:43 with the scriptures to make it mean anything other than that. 14:45 If a man also lie with mankind as with a woman, 14:50 that seems to cover monogamy, 14:53 both of them that means both men 14:55 that's monogamy both of them have committed an abomination. 15:00 And so there again we have to say, 15:04 you know, or ask the question, do I accept the owner's manual? 15:07 Do I accept God's word or am I going 15:10 to try to rationalize it away? 15:12 Now what is an abomination? What does that word mean? 15:16 To me it's really just sin because you know in my book 15:18 I went through the Bible 15:19 and I listed all the abominations 15:21 I could find in the Bible 15:23 put them all together in one paragraph it really, 15:26 it didn't make me feel better about homosexuality 15:29 it made me feel better about salvation 15:31 because you look at all of those 15:34 that are listed as abominations 15:35 and it just really boils down to sin, but-- 15:38 And there are other, to be fair 15:40 there are other abominations, everybody talks about 15:43 these six things are an abomination 15:45 or the Lord hates seven abominations and it lists-- 15:48 Gossip is one of them. 15:50 Proud heart, you know, hearty look, so it's not just-- 15:53 Adultery. Okay. 15:54 Hearing is abomination. 15:56 Well and this verse isn't specific 15:58 whether it's an adulterous relationship 16:00 or a committed sanctioned relationship 16:03 and so in it's vagueness, 16:05 God would make Himself clear wouldn't He? 16:07 And so maybe in that general term 16:09 He's saying all of it. 16:11 It's the act itself. And it's really not that vague. 16:14 He's not specific because He's being inclusive 16:16 that all of it is not. 16:18 He's just dealing with the act itself, 16:20 He's not dealing with the person's commitment 16:22 or promiscuity or faithfulness or lack of faithfulness. 16:25 He's dealing simply with the act itself. 16:27 Now, Mike, you have Romans Chapter 1 16:31 this is the Old Testament 16:33 we have a counter part in the New Testament 16:35 that pretty much says the same thing. 16:37 So why don't you read that verse 16:39 on your tablet there, and let us know what is there. 16:42 Okay. 16:43 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, 16:46 and worshipped and served the creature 16:48 more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. 16:51 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections 16:54 for even their women did change the natural use into that 16:57 which is against nature and likewise also the men, 17:00 leaving the natural use of the woman, 17:02 burned in their lust one toward another; 17:05 men with men working that which is unseemly, 17:07 and receiving in themselves that recompence 17:10 of their error which was meet." 17:12 Okay, do you see this as a parallel 17:14 to the verse in Leviticus? 17:15 Yeah, and you know what 17:17 when this scripture really came to my mind 17:20 I really kind of detached from it 17:22 somewhat because I didn't have 17:25 any natural affection for the opposite sex at all, 17:29 and from the earliest time I could remember, 17:31 I remember having those attraction to the same sex. 17:35 And so when I came out into gay life, 17:38 I wasn't seeking for sex with men, 17:41 I was seeking for intimacy with men, 17:43 that was the void that was in my life. 17:45 And so what I found was that 17:46 I had to actually engage in homosexual sex 17:49 to get the affection and the intimacy 17:51 that I was seeking for and what happened is 17:53 I became derailed and I believe 17:55 the fulfillment of this verse is that 17:57 then my sexual addiction started to promote 18:00 because then I became more obsessed 18:02 with the sexual act rather than the intimacy 18:04 which was what I was seeking initially. 18:06 And so it didn't take the enemy long 18:09 to derail me into thinking 18:11 what I was actually seeking for was the intimacy 18:13 and which turned into a sexual addiction 18:15 which drove that even more 18:17 because even less was I getting the fulfillment 18:19 of the intimacy that I was desperate for. 18:22 As I look at this verse too, I know there are, 18:25 you know, there's different ways 18:26 people can relate to this verses 18:27 there's the, you can just reject them, 18:29 we can try to revise them or we can accept them 18:32 or we can accept them and just reject them 18:35 because we don't want to follow them. 18:36 But as I look at the text, 18:38 verse 25 talks about the Creator 18:40 which is the owner and it takes us 18:42 back to Genesis showing God's original plan 18:45 and then verse 26 talks about women changing that plan 18:51 and going against nature 18:53 and then verse 27 talks about men, 18:56 leaving the natural use of the women 18:58 burning in their lust one toward another, 19:01 men with men, 19:02 so it's a perfect parallel to Leviticus 19:05 and it's talking about the original plan the Creator 19:08 and then the deviation from that plan and, 19:13 I know this is a tough text and I've heard I think, 19:16 Mike, you shared with me that there's a gay Bible, 19:20 many in the gay community 19:22 they don't believe that these verses, 19:25 really just should be there. 19:27 So they've created their own Bible 19:30 and in their Bible these verses are not there. 19:32 Is that correct? 19:33 Right, so this thing that I was looking at last night 19:36 it was a statement that said if the Bible doesn't speak 19:38 against homosexuality like the liberals say 19:41 then why does the gay Bible created 19:44 removing all the references to homosexuality. 19:46 So if they've taken out the verses 19:48 that they say are innocuous 19:50 and you know they don't meet anything 19:52 then what would be the purpose 19:53 of taking them out in the first place? 19:55 You know my boyfriend admitted that he found that 19:59 I've been baptized into a Christian church. 20:01 He dragged me to the gay church 20:03 and we spoke to the priest then 20:04 and she went over all the verses 20:06 in the Old and the New Testament 20:08 and gave me her understanding of that 20:10 again I was desperate to keep my boyfriend. 20:12 I had no intention of letting go 20:14 of not only my identity 20:15 but also my boyfriend but you know, 20:17 even as she spoke, it's like I was, 20:21 I was following Jesus Christ. 20:23 All I knew was that He loved me 20:24 for who I was and as she spoke 20:26 it's like the Holy Spirit just reasoned with me 20:28 and I could realize that, that didn't make sense 20:31 what she was saying. 20:32 I wanted to believe her 20:33 and I truly wanted to keep my boyfriend 20:35 but I walked away realizing that now that's not clear 20:38 and that doesn't even make sense 20:40 even though I still was you know, 20:42 in a relationship with my boyfriend. 20:44 So you were exposed at that time 20:45 to the revisionist interpretation of those texts, 20:49 and you just really you're conscience 20:51 just told you I just don't buy it. 20:53 But it created more confusion, Steve. 20:55 Sure, I can understand I mean 20:56 if you're in a gay relationship 20:58 and then you read a verse like that what do I do? 21:01 Well, then I started to get angry at God 21:04 and I said how dare You made me gay 21:06 and then tell me I'm an abomination. 21:08 And I remember crying out and saying that's not fair 21:11 but in my naivety not knowing what the scriptures 21:16 and I knew they condemn homosexuality 21:18 but I also bought into the lie that God made me that way. 21:21 But as I continued to pursue and demand 21:24 that He give those answers 21:26 and I think that God can handle that 21:28 because it was desperation to hang on 21:30 to Jesus Christ and my boyfriend 21:32 but the Lord slowly started to reveal to me 21:34 that He had something beyond anything 21:36 that I could even imagine available for me 21:38 and as I continue to pursue Him, 21:40 He brought me answers to those questions. 21:41 So your confusion finally went away 21:43 and you gave up the boyfriend and you stuck with the manual? 21:47 No I told the Lord 21:48 that if He wanted me out of that relationship 21:50 He was going to have to do it Himself 21:51 and that I was gonna dig in my heels 21:53 and prove to Him that I can be monogamous 21:55 and what was amazing is I said 21:56 if You want me out You have to do it. 21:58 So he got you out. 21:59 He went right to it. Yeah. 22:00 Pastor Ron, you mentioned there's a-- 22:02 how did you respond to these tough texts 22:04 when you were living the gay lifestyle? 22:06 When I fell into the gay life, 22:11 I actually had a degree in theology, 22:12 I had recently graduated with a degree in theology 22:16 on my way to medical school, 22:19 I planned to be a medical missionary, 22:21 but to me the Bible was clear. 22:25 I just didn't have 22:26 an understanding about my salvation 22:29 and I didn't reject the Word of God, 22:31 I rejected God himself. 22:36 I just separated from the church 22:38 from Christianity because in my mind, 22:42 I knew what the Bible said, 22:44 I didn't try to rationalize it away, 22:47 I didn't try to reinterpret, 22:49 I just looked at it and said I can't do this. 22:53 I mean, this is who I am, I don't know 22:55 where I fit into all of this, 22:57 I didn't know why I was struggling 22:59 with all of this all my life, I didn't know why I was gay, 23:03 but I became a bit angry with God 23:06 because the Bible was telling me 23:08 that I needed to be like Jesus, 23:10 but Jesus was not like me. 23:12 In other words I thought of Him as God and yes, 23:14 He could follow the law of God 23:17 because He was God 23:18 and He had an advantage over me 23:19 and I became angry with Him 23:21 because He expected me to live up to His standard 23:24 and it was impossible. 23:26 So I just went into the world bitter 23:28 and angry against God never questioning His word, 23:32 but just accepting that I could not measure up. 23:36 And so you believe that some people revise it, 23:38 some people take them out, others believe them 23:40 but just don't want to follow them 23:42 or feel like they can't, 23:43 feel like they can't follow them like in your case 23:45 and then you just got angry with God-- 23:47 But I knew that if I ever found the answers, 23:51 that I'd be back where I started 23:53 that I'd be back in the same church, 23:55 you know, the same denomination, 23:57 I'd go forward from there, I didn't fault the Word of God, 24:02 I just didn't understand where I'd fit in and I gave up. 24:05 And so to make a long story short 24:06 we only have a few more minutes. 24:09 At some point you both realized that even though you were doing 24:14 what the Bible said was wrong 24:16 that there still was a God who loved you, 24:19 that even though He pointed out sin 24:22 and that you're departed from the plan, 24:24 He still loved you enough to do something 24:28 major for you to give His son for you, 24:31 so He could bring you back to the plan. 24:33 And we had to just come to the point 24:35 where we accepted the word as it read, 24:38 trusted that He could do what He said He could do. 24:42 I accepted Jesus with all my feelings and emotions 24:46 still corrupted with all the temptations 24:49 with all the desires that I learned 24:51 to let my mind rule the body and not the other way around, 24:56 not to be governed by my feelings and emotions 24:59 but let my mind start governing those feelings and emotions. 25:03 Wonderful, Mike. 25:04 But for me it was a little different. 25:06 Again I was such a poser 25:08 and I didn't like to make people upset. 25:10 I knew that God existed, I even believed 25:12 that He loved me but I always had this image 25:15 that God was like my dad, there is arbitrary, 25:18 that the rules change and that He basically 25:20 was trying to cheat me out of something. 25:22 And so I didn't trust Him. 25:24 He had to earn back my trust. 25:26 But as I continued to pursue Jesus Christ 25:28 as Jesus got me out of situations and started to-- 25:32 I understood that and I was drawn to that love, 25:34 then He started to show me who the real father was. 25:37 And then as He delivered me over and over again 25:40 many times in many years, 25:42 I started to see Him a little bit differently 25:44 that I could trust Him. 25:46 But I believed that for many homosexuals, 25:48 we've experienced so much rejection 25:51 and can't trust anyone. 25:53 And I think that it's a very normal reaction 25:57 to turn away from God and to be angry at God 25:59 because of all the rejection that we've experienced. 26:01 And I believe that we put that on God. 26:03 In John 17, it talks about "This is life eternal, 26:07 that they may know Me the only true God, 26:09 and Christ Jesus, whom you have sent." 26:11 Amen. Thank you. 26:14 This book is the manual. 26:16 This is the owner's manual, God has given it to us. 26:19 It tells us what's right, what's wrong, 26:22 and what's best for us just like an owner's manual, 26:23 the car tells us what kind of gas 26:25 we need to put in the gas tank 26:27 so the car will run efficiently and not have a breakdown. 26:31 God has told us His original plan, 26:35 He's told us what's right, what's wrong, 26:37 what a deviation is from His plan 26:39 and yet I'm encouraged 26:40 by the very same book of Romans 26:42 that points out the deviation in chapter 5, 26:45 it says in verse 8 26:47 "That God has demonstrated His love toward us, 26:51 in that, while were yet sinners, 26:54 Christ died for us." 26:56 Even though we have sinned, we've all sinned, 26:58 we've all done things that we shouldn't have done, 27:00 and God still loves us, He loves us a lot. 27:03 He loves you a lot and our hope is that 27:07 that love will break into your life, 27:09 it'll change your heart 27:10 and it'll lead you to give your whole life to Him 27:12 and to follow the owner's manual 27:14 so you can be happy. 27:16 If you'd like to order the 13 part 27:18 Coming Out series for $34.95 plus shipping, 27:21 call 1-800-782-4253, or write to White Horse Media, 27:26 PO Box 1139, Newport, Washington, 99156. 27:30 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely 27:32 and Mike Carducci are each available 27:34 to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:36 To schedule a speaking engagement, 27:37 contact Coming Out Ministries 27:39 by calling 360-936-8514 27:43 or visit comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-01-15