Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Pr. Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000005
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00:09 Love, lust, Hollywood, God, and you,
00:14 that's our topic next on Coming Out. 00:59 Welcome to part five of Coming Out. 01:02 I'm here with Pastor Ron Woolsey and Wayne Blakely, 01:06 two of the cofounders of Coming Out ministries. 01:09 We have been discussing a variety of issues. 01:12 It's no secret that letters and it's a little, 01:15 I guess it's an acronym or it's a sequence of letters 01:18 LGBTQ are being read around the world. 01:24 You can see them on the internet, 01:25 people read them in textbooks, 01:28 they're being discussed in the media, 01:30 in books, novels, talk shows. 01:33 These letters mean L stands for lesbian, 01:37 G stands for gay, B is bisexual, 01:40 T is transgender, and Q is questioning. 01:45 A lot of people are questioning these days 01:47 and at the heart of this controversy, 01:50 at least one of the biggest issues 01:52 of all concerning the appropriateness 01:54 or inappropriateness or what's right 01:56 and what's wrong with these kind of activities 02:00 and movements is the issue of love. 02:02 The title of our program today is called "I Love You?" 02:07 And we're here to discuss what love is about, 02:10 the nature of love, 02:11 some of the controversies surrounding love 02:14 and what really is true love, based upon an ancient book 02:19 which we believe in, which is the Bible. 02:22 Gentlemen, again thank you for being here. 02:25 Thank you. This has been great so far. 02:26 I've just appreciated your stories, 02:28 you've been telling me your stories, 02:30 and now we want to talk about love. 02:33 Love is a word that's tossed around a lot. 02:37 I'm married and I love my wife, I love my children. 02:40 I also love to go running. 02:43 One of our camera operators 02:44 who's listening to this just said a little bit ago, 02:47 "I overheard her say that she loves her hair". 02:50 I'm assuming that it was a good hair day for her. 02:53 You know, people love chocolate. 02:55 We use the word love all kinds of ways. 02:58 But we really need to understand, 03:00 at least according to the Bible 03:02 what love is really all about, don't you agree? 03:05 Yes. 03:06 And, Pastor Ron, you told me just today, earlier today 03:10 that during the time when you were, 03:12 after you had come out of the closet 03:14 and had gone into a openly 03:18 homosexual relationship with a man, 03:20 you told me honestly that you love that man. 03:27 So I want you just to tell me, 03:28 you know, clarify that for me, you know. 03:31 Some people would say, well, that couldn't be real love. 03:35 But, you know, could it be real love? 03:37 Well, sure it can be real love. 03:38 Actually during my time in the gay life 03:40 I had three lifetime relationships. 03:44 Okay, three lifetime. 03:45 That's right, three lifetime relationships 03:47 and I loved each one of them, you know. 03:50 I mean, that was my ultimate love experience temporarily. 03:55 In the last situation 03:57 we were very much in love with each other 04:00 and we were emotionally bonded, we were physically bonded. 04:05 The element that was missing of course was the spiritual. 04:09 And as I began searching and studying God's word 04:12 and the spirituality began developing within me, 04:15 that created a void between us in a way 04:19 because he was not and I was 04:23 and I learned to love Jesus more. 04:26 And that's what pulled me out of that relationship, 04:28 but even then, Steve, in ending that relationship, 04:32 it was an extremely traumatic experience 04:36 because we dearly loved each other. 04:37 I mean, it was true love, but it was misplaced. 04:42 We were loving the wrong people. 04:44 We were not in harmony with God's will. 04:46 I think this is what Satan does. 04:48 He takes something beautiful 04:50 and he attaches it to something that is wrong, 04:52 and he uses something God created in the wrong way 04:57 to bring great unhappiness and sadness and trauma. 05:00 And that's what happened in my situation. 05:03 And that story is in your book, the book that you've written. 05:07 Yes, and that's one reason 05:08 that this young man just went berserk 05:10 when we were going through our separation 05:12 because we loved each other so much. 05:15 And he felt he was being totally abandoned. 05:17 And he-- It was as if he was possessed by seven demons, 05:22 and he attacked me and almost killed me in the process. 05:25 It doesn't sound like love. 05:27 I mean, he was desperate. He did not want to let go. 05:31 And, Wayne, speaking of desperate 05:33 and speaking of love, 05:34 share what you told me earlier, your quest for love. 05:39 Right. 05:40 Well, I was rejected by both birth parents. 05:44 And so early on I was really floundering 05:47 and not knowing what love really meant. 05:50 And everyone wants to matter, 05:53 they want to belong, they want to be loved. 05:56 And so I began a search 05:57 and I began to find that physical connection 06:02 was what I was beginning to interpret as love. 06:04 It was very emotional. 06:06 So I thought that if I was engaging 06:09 in physical affection or in sex with someone 06:12 that it translated to mean love. 06:14 But of course as the world largely knows 06:17 that you can be taken for granted, 06:21 you can be rejected, 06:22 you know, as soon as the act is actually even over, 06:25 you've actually been used not loved. 06:28 So I arrived with a great confusion, 06:32 I didn't understand the love of God. 06:34 I read about it, but I hadn't made it 06:37 a practical application to my life. 06:39 So for years and years 06:41 I kept looking for love in the wrong places, 06:45 and till I met Jesus Christ one day who proposed to me 06:49 that I needed to get to know Him. 06:50 Well, it sounds like a marriage relationship, 06:52 He proposed to you. Yeah, absolutely. 06:55 And just to clarify I'm sure that, 06:57 you know, these issues searching for love, 06:59 wanting love, misplaced love, 07:02 this doesn't only apply to the gay, 07:05 lesbian, transgender community. 07:07 This applies to all of us, how many people are out there 07:11 that are looking for love in the wrong place. 07:14 And, you know, we can get confused 07:17 about the nature of love, 07:20 we can experience lust and we can call it love. 07:25 We're just-- I think we're just pretty 07:27 messed up down here in this fallen world. 07:29 We're all confused, and we need some clarity. 07:32 And the good news is that there is clarity in this book, 07:36 in this ancient book. 07:37 This is the basis of everything that we're doing here. 07:39 We're not ashamed of that. That's right. 07:41 That we believe in the Bible 07:42 and we believe the Bible is a good book. 07:46 Absolutely. It is a clarifying book. 07:48 It is a book that will help us 07:51 in the struggles that we are in, 07:53 and ultimately it will help us to get to a wonderful place 07:58 which is where we all want to ultimately go. 08:00 Yeah. This is life sustaining. 08:01 That's right, that's right. 08:03 It's like an umbilical cord for, 08:05 you know, a fetus getting that life from the mother. 08:09 This is really like an umbilical cord 08:12 giving us life and information from God. 08:15 Now let's talk about God and love. 08:18 Wayne, I think you had a text you wanted to share with us. 08:20 Yeah, I think 1 John 4:8 tells us that 08:24 "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 08:29 So I think again right here it shows us 08:34 the definition of love needs to come from God, 08:37 from our creator. 08:38 If we're not spending the time here 08:40 to find out what that definition is, 08:43 then the enemy quickly comes about 08:45 trying to twist on God's original plan. 08:48 Yeah, in our last program 08:49 we talked about the owner's manual. 08:51 And now we'll shift to 08:52 what does the owner's manual from God 08:54 tell us about love, about this big issue. 08:57 So if somebody's listening to this 08:59 and hearing this verse, "God is love," 09:04 what does that mean? 09:05 What kind of love? 09:07 You know, a lot of people hate God. 09:09 They don't think He loves them at all. 09:10 They think that He just-- 09:12 He doesn't like what they're doing. 09:14 Maybe they've had a skewed perception of Him 09:16 as they were growing up. 09:17 They just think there's-- if there is anybody up there, 09:19 He's probably just a big meaning in the sky 09:21 who just-- He doesn't love me, 09:23 He just wants to point out my faults. 09:26 You know, how do we understand this verse 09:28 that says that God is love? 09:31 I think often people misconstrue love and feelings. 09:35 So if your feelings don't confirm 09:39 what you expect to be love, 09:40 then you don't consider it to be love. 09:42 But God is a disciplinary God as well. 09:44 So while it may not always feel good, 09:47 God is looking out for us 09:48 if we put our trust and our faith in Him. 09:51 And if we look at the life of Jesus Himself, 09:55 Jesus in His life, 09:56 He gives us the definition and the clarification. 09:59 I think of this text when He says 10:02 if You've seen the Father, you've seen Me, 10:03 and we read that God is love. 10:05 And that may seem kind of nebulous to us, 10:08 but if we look at the life of Jesus, 10:10 His whole life spelled out what that text means. 10:12 Is it safe to say that love, that real love, 10:15 that God's love is multifaceted? 10:19 That it has different dimensions? 10:21 I know from my reading of the Bible, 10:23 it tells me that God is a just God. 10:26 He's love, He's just, He's also extremely merciful. 10:31 He's a merciful God 10:33 so He has all of these different qualities. 10:36 And as I look at it, really the core of His being is love 10:40 and that His justice which tells us 10:43 what's right and wrong and His decision 10:46 that He's actually going to He's gonna punish sin someday. 10:50 And His mercy that He doesn't want that happen to us, 10:53 that He wants us to come to Him 10:57 and avoid the inevitable if we stay in sin. 11:01 That both His justice and His mercy 11:03 are manifestations of His heart of love. 11:07 Could I touch on the word mercy for just a second? 11:09 Sure. 11:10 God has always been merciful, but until the fall of man, 11:15 the universe never saw that dimension of His love. 11:19 And through us, through people who are redeemed, 11:22 the universe is seeing a dimension of God's love 11:25 that they would never have seen otherwise. 11:27 To me that's an amazing thing. 11:28 His mercy is a part of His character and His love, 11:31 but it was never seen until someone like 11:34 Wayne and Ron and Mike come along 11:36 and then the universe goes-- 11:37 And Steve. Wow! 11:39 Well, yeah, maybe even Steve. You know, they go, "Wow!" 11:43 We got different temptations, but sin is sin. 11:44 God, that's what mercy is, that's what love is. 11:48 While you touched on mercy, 11:49 I'd like to touch on grace because when we look at love, 11:54 we look at all three of these coming into play. 11:57 And often people will say, well, God's grace, 11:59 you know, has covered you. 12:01 And, yeah, God's grace-- love is not cheap. 12:05 God shed His blood for us. 12:07 He spent His life here 12:09 to give us the definition of love. 12:10 So while He covers us with grace, 12:13 it's not for us to ever think 12:15 that we can be presumptuous and continue in sin. 12:18 Now let's talk about what the Bible says about love, 12:21 true love and discipline. 12:24 That's a word that, you know, many times love and discipline 12:27 don't seem to go together like oil and water. 12:30 But they do go together in the Bible. 12:33 So share with us some scriptures about that. 12:39 Wayne, I think you have Revelation 3? 12:40 Yeah, I do. 12:41 Revelation 3:19 says to us, 12:46 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, 12:50 therefore be zealous, and repent." 12:54 So it gives clarity to me 12:57 that God put His law in place as guardrails for me. 13:01 He loved me so much 13:02 that He didn't want me to experience things 13:05 that the enemy has in store 13:06 if I'm not paying attention to the word 13:09 and sticking to what God's plan for me is. 13:11 And so when I get outside the line sometimes, 13:14 God has to do or allow certain things to happen to me, 13:17 consequences to happen to me of my own choices 13:20 which I bear today in the life that I lived. 13:24 Some of the temptations 13:25 that are still present in my life today 13:27 are because of having made 13:29 so many wrong choices over and over and over. 13:31 They're engrained, they're stained on me. 13:34 But He brings me back, points out to me 13:37 that He allowed those things to happen 13:39 so that I could truly see 13:40 what genuine love is, true love is. 13:43 we actually can build on that, 13:47 "For whom the Lord loveth He chastens, 13:50 and scourges every son whom He receiveth." 13:53 And I think we've all been scourged 13:56 by our parents time to time. 13:59 And I remember when my mother would say, 14:01 "This hurts me more than you." 14:03 And I would say, "Yeah, right." 14:06 But now as a father myself 14:08 and you, Steve, you know as a parent, 14:10 it truly hurts the parent 14:12 to punish or discipline a child. 14:14 And yet that is love. 14:16 I mean, it should be a loving act 14:20 because we want to train these children 14:23 to walk in the way of the Lord. 14:27 And I think of the example of all of the work 14:30 that I've done in Romania, I've been there many times. 14:33 And I see these little street urchin children 14:35 that have been put out by their families 14:37 because they can't afford to feed them anymore. 14:39 And they roam the streets like animals. 14:42 And my heart goes out and I feel love towards them 14:45 and I'd like to adopt one and bring home. 14:47 But the thing of it is 14:48 I don't love that child and leave him where he is, 14:52 and God doesn't love us that way. 14:54 We love-- I would love that child 14:56 enough to accept him into my home and clean him up, 15:00 shave his head, burn his clothes, 15:02 soak him in a hot tub for a week, 15:03 deworm him, delouse him, 15:05 give him good food, good clothes, 15:08 you know, good things, good education. 15:10 As Mike says, don't forget the puppy, you know. 15:12 And that's the way God is with us. 15:15 He loves us and He disciplines us 15:18 and He trains us to be like Himself. 15:20 And He gives us the puppy. Yeah. 15:22 You know, I've learned that lesson especially 15:26 since I've become a dad. 15:28 And I know you can relate to this, you know. 15:29 I have a little boy, he's 9 years old, 15:31 Seth, and I have a little girl Abigail, Abi, she's 6. 15:36 And I love my kids more than life itself. 15:38 I would sacrifice my life for them, I really would. 15:41 There's nothing I want more than 15:42 for my kids to be in heaven. 15:44 And because I love them so much, 15:47 I want to train them to do what's right. 15:51 And when as different things happen in our home, 15:54 I could go into a whole host of examples, 15:56 I know you could, too. 15:57 If either Seth or Abi, 15:58 you know, one time recently Seth and I, 16:01 we were playing a little board game, 16:02 and he finagled. 16:04 And he-- you know, I was kind of looking the other way, 16:07 and he rolled a little dice, you know, to move. 16:09 I think it was monopoly. 16:11 And he saw that it didn't-- rolled the dice, 16:15 didn't come up with the number that he wanted 16:18 and one of them fell off the board. 16:21 And so he grabbed it, 16:22 looked at that, figured that out, 16:23 this is not what I want and so he rolled it again. 16:26 And then I caught him on that, and I told him, I said, 16:29 "Seth, you know, you're really 16:32 not being honest with that situation. 16:35 That first roll was the roll that you rolled. 16:38 And because you didn't want that number 16:41 where you want it to go, you changed it." 16:45 And actually gave him a Bible verse later on. 16:46 I said, "I want you to read," 16:47 I think it was Luke 16:10 that says, 16:49 "He who is faithful in that 16:51 which is least is faithful also in much." 16:53 And then I talked to him about that. 16:54 And I'm trying to instill in him 16:57 through this practical experience 16:58 the importance of telling the truth and being truthful 17:03 and practicing the truth even if it's not something 17:06 that you may exactly want. 17:08 So it's just a small thing, but because I love my boy, 17:12 I'm willing to discipline him, to correct him, to instruct him 17:17 because I want what's best for him. 17:19 And I do this over and over and over again. 17:22 And I've learned that because, 17:24 you know, God loves me like that verse 17:26 that you read, both of you, 17:28 Jesus said "Those whom I love I rebuke, 17:32 and I discipline, repent." 17:33 It gives us moral character. That's right. 17:35 And sometimes as parents this is an all day process, 17:39 and so it should help us understand 17:40 with our Heavenly Father it's 24x7 also towards us. 17:43 Right. 17:44 And He has a lot of things to deal with, much more than us 17:46 just rolling a dice on a game of monopoly. 17:49 As we get bigger, of course, we have big issues. 17:52 And God loves us and so these verses say 17:55 that He disciplines us. 17:57 Now I want to shift to love and morality, 18:00 the moral nature of love because we're just so confused. 18:03 We grow up, we're just-- 18:05 we don't really know what love is. 18:07 We hear love, we see Hollywood, love each other, 18:09 you know, they leave their spouses 18:11 because they love this person or that person. 18:13 And love is thrown around all over the place. 18:16 And yet according to this book, 18:18 what is the connection between love and morality? 18:23 Well, love is a principle. 18:26 And when we apply love it needs to be 18:28 in harmony with the principles that God has given us. 18:30 Otherwise, you know, it gets misplaced 18:33 and causes all kinds of heartache and difficulty. 18:36 We can't-- 18:37 If we just go with our feelings and emotions really 18:40 and follow puppy love it's really following lust 18:44 and letting that dictate our behavior 18:47 and our choices rather than our mind 18:49 which should be operating in harmony with the will of God. 18:54 There's a verse in Romans 13: 10. 18:59 Have we talked about that? 19:00 Ron, would you like to read that? 19:01 Romans 13:10. 19:02 "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor. 19:05 Therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." 19:07 And that's stated over and over in the Bible with-- 19:11 Jesus said in John 14:15, 19:13 "If you love Me, keep My commandments." 19:16 And one that I really like is 1 John 5:3 in which he says, 19:19 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 19:23 And His commandments are not grievous." 19:26 His commandments are really the definition of love 19:28 because they are a reflection of His character, 19:32 and God is love. 19:35 You know, it helps me understand today that, 19:38 you know, as I pray, and I pray every day 19:41 that God will help me fall more and more in love with him. 19:44 And it makes sense for the verse that says, 19:46 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." 19:48 And, you know, we have verses in both 19:52 the New and the Old Testaments that tell us, 19:55 you know, the importance of keeping His commandments. 19:58 But we don't want to do that out of a checklist notion. 20:03 The only way that I'm gonna regard 20:05 God is if I fall in love with Him, 20:07 if I know that His ways are perfect. 20:09 And that if I abide in Him and surrender to Him 20:13 that He will bless me. 20:14 And so as I walk with God today 20:17 and I see that I surrender and I give things over to Him, 20:19 that I deny self as He asks me to do, to live for Him, 20:24 that He greatly blesses my life. 20:26 We can't always see on the other side of the wall. 20:30 So it takes an act of faith and believing in God 20:33 and His truth and His Word, 20:36 that He reveals to us on the other side 20:39 of that wall are beautiful, wonderful things for us, 20:42 rewards for us for having kept His commandments. 20:45 You know, when Jesus says, 20:46 "If you love Me, keep My commandments," 20:48 that's really a very reasonable statement. 20:50 You know, as husbands 20:52 we probably have heard our wives say in the past, 20:55 "If you really love me..." 20:57 you know, and then we know what's coming. 21:00 I mean, we use this term and we even may say 21:03 the same things to our wives. 21:05 And Jesus is simply saying, 21:06 you know, if you really love Me, 21:08 this is what pleases Me, this is what makes Me happy. 21:12 And so it's perfectly logical and reasonable. 21:15 That's right. 21:16 In our family we go through the Ten Commandments a lot. 21:19 And my son especially, he's older than Aby, 21:22 and he knows the Ten Commandments 21:23 from top to bottom. 21:24 And it just makes sense to me 21:27 in my relationship with my wife and with my kids 21:30 that to put God first is part of God's moral love, 21:34 that's what's best for me, 21:35 it's what's best for our family, 21:36 not to have any idols, not to take God's name in vain, 21:39 to keep God's day holy, to honor my father and mother. 21:43 We teach our kids, "Honor your parents" 21:45 because that's what's best for a happy home. 21:47 Don't murder, don't commit adultery. 21:49 I tell the kids, you know, adultery would be, 21:53 they want to know what that text means, 21:54 so I tell them, "Well, I'm married to your mommy. 21:57 And if I were to go out and find another mommy, 22:00 that would be adultery. 22:01 And God does not want that. 22:03 And because I love Mommy, which I do, 22:05 I don't want to do that." 22:07 And so love then has a context, and it has moral principles. 22:14 And I don't want to steal, I don't wan to lie, 22:16 I don't want to covet, 22:17 I want to love God with my whole heart, 22:19 soul, mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. 22:21 And those principles of love are moral principles. 22:25 You know, I think one thing 22:27 that God kind of revealed to me, 22:29 simple thing here recently was the fact that, 22:32 you know, He's put these things in place for us. 22:35 And we find the world just really bending things. 22:38 And I think that if it was apropos God's plan 22:43 for gays and lesbians today to be parents, 22:48 there would have been a commandment 22:49 that would have said, 22:50 "Honor thy father and thy father, 22:52 or honor thy mother and thy mother." 22:54 But that's absent, and that's a big indicator to me 22:56 that this isn't part of God's plan for us. 22:59 You know, one way I really like to go through the commandments, 23:04 I put these two together, 23:05 and I just take the words of Jesus, 23:07 "If you love Me, don't have other gods before Me. 23:10 If you love Me--" You know, and I go through them. 23:13 And when you come to the seventh commandment, 23:15 if you say, quote Jesus, 23:17 "If you love Me, don't commit adultery. 23:19 If you love Me--" 23:20 And see this is what I applied to my life, 23:22 and I'm sure you did, too, Wayne. 23:24 If you love Me, 23:26 don't be involved in this kind of relationship. 23:29 It's not in harmony. 23:30 If you really love Me, 23:32 you need to bring this to an end. 23:34 And that's what happened with me. 23:35 I learned to love Him more. 23:38 And I think in many cases what we call love, 23:41 in many cases, not all cases, 23:42 but in many cases it's really just lust. 23:45 It's lust, it's not really love. 23:47 And God has given us the Ten Commandments. 23:50 And when we think about this whole sexuality issue, 23:52 I mean, like you said the fifth commandment does not say 23:54 "Honor your father and father." 23:55 It says "Honor your father and mother." 23:57 And the second commandment talks about the sins of fathers 24:00 being visited upon the children, 24:02 the tenth commandment talks about 24:04 not coveting your neighbor's wife 24:07 or anything that belongs to your neighbor, 24:09 and the seventh commandment, 24:10 you know, is respecting the marriage relationship, 24:11 not committing adultery. 24:13 And when you really honestly look at the big ten, 24:15 God's law of love, it basically, not basically, 24:18 but it does support traditional marriage. 24:21 Husbands, wives, children, adultery, 24:24 God's original plan in the Garden of Eden 24:26 as was revealed by the owner's manual, 24:29 which we talked about previously. 24:31 And real love, true love, biblical love is God's attempt, 24:36 He loves us, and He wants us to bring us 24:39 into harmony with His law of love 24:42 because that is really what's best for us, 24:44 it's what's best for our children, 24:46 it's what's best for our society. 24:48 And one of these days 24:50 it will become the law of the land in the new earth 24:53 when we will be living with our God forever and ever. 24:57 And doesn't Jesus reveal Himself 25:00 through the marriage institution to children? 25:04 This is one way children learn more about God, who is love, 25:08 if they have a proper family. 25:10 Example. 25:11 He instituted that marriage to help portray 25:15 and teach children about Himself. 25:17 So God can still love us and not approve, 25:19 is that correct? 25:20 Yes. Of everything we do. 25:22 Yeah, so if God can love sinners, can we? 25:26 You know, that's a good thing to point out 25:29 because I see today as we go and we speak around the world, 25:34 we meet many parents 25:37 who are compromised often about their children 25:40 who are living openly in a gay lifestyle 25:43 that they didn't plan for them or a gay culture, 25:45 however you want to term it. 25:49 I think that first of all 25:50 the enemy goes after young people 25:52 because he wants to get them 25:53 before they can get rooted in the word of God. 25:56 But often when he grabs the children, 25:58 he'll reach right behind them 26:00 and try to grab the parents, too, 26:02 by saying that if you really love your children, 26:05 you're going to put a stamp of approval on their sin. 26:09 And so you would attend, you know, a gay wedding, 26:12 or you would do something that you're indicating 26:15 that you love them through that. 26:16 Yeah, we'll talk about that more in a future program, 26:19 that's a big issue. 26:21 I'd like to close with Romans 5:8 says that 26:25 "God demonstrated His love, it's His love, 26:28 this kind of love toward us, in that, 26:31 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." 26:37 God's love is a pure love, it's a true love. 26:39 It's a love that doesn't overlook 26:41 and doesn't revise and doesn't just ignore sin. 26:45 It's a love that manifested itself in God 26:49 giving His own Son to deal with sin. 26:54 And the way He dealt with it 26:56 is that He took it into his mind and heart, 26:58 and He paid the ultimate price for you and for me. 27:01 He died for our sins and rose from the dead. 27:04 And He wants to forgive us and change our lives 27:07 and prepare us to love Him forever 27:10 so we can be happy throughout all eternity. 27:14 We'll be back with more of Coming Out. 27:17 If you would like to order the 13 part 27:19 Coming Out series for $34.95 plus shipping, 27:22 call 1-800-782-4253, or write to White Horse Media, 27:26 PO Box 1139, Newport, Washington, 99156. 27:30 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Wayne Blakely 27:32 and Mike Carducci are each available 27:34 to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:36 To schedule a speaking engagement, 27:38 contact Coming Out Ministries by calling 360-936-8514, 27:43 or visit comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-04-02