Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000008
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00:09 Why are gays gay doesn't matter?
00:12 Next on Coming Out. 01:00 Welcome to program number eight in the Coming Out series. 01:04 And we've been in quite a journey 01:06 going through a journey, we got more to come. 01:08 We have been discussing about big issues dealing with gays, 01:11 homosexuals, lesbians, gender issues 01:15 and the Bible and Jesus 01:17 and what God has to say about this controversy. 01:21 I'm here again with Dwayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey. 01:25 Pastor Ron, they are cofounders 01:29 of a ministry called Coming Out. 01:31 They came out of the closet a long time ago 01:34 and now they have come out of what they came out of 01:38 and they have to chosen to come in to the Bible 01:41 and they have a ministry which is focused 01:44 on bringing clarity to these issues 01:45 and trying to shed light and healing and love and peace 01:49 into people's hearts through the love of God. 01:52 That's what this is all about. 01:54 So again welcome here, gentlemen. 01:55 Thank you. Thank you. 01:56 I just I really appreciate your time and your insights. 02:00 Now let's just start with the context 02:02 that we find ourselves in our society. 02:05 Its no secrete that there are-- 02:07 I don't know what about, maybe I should say a lot 02:09 or many or some boys that are growing up 02:11 in this world that at some point 02:13 they discover that they are not attracted to girls 02:15 but they're attracted to boys. 02:16 And there are women, girls that grow up 02:19 when they become either, you know, later girls 02:22 or women puberty or beyond when they discover 02:25 that they're really attracted to other girls or other women 02:29 and there are boys that wish they were girls 02:31 and there are girls that wish they were boys 02:33 and there are those that go through the surgery 02:35 to make themselves what they really believe in their hearts 02:38 they were supposed to be 02:40 and what's happening is we live in an environment 02:44 where this is happening increasingly 02:46 and people are asking a question 02:49 which is why is this happening? 02:51 You know, when they're looking for reasons, for this trend 02:57 and I guess the first question 02:58 I want to ask before we look at the why, 03:03 is a lesson that we can learn from the question. 03:05 The fact that people are saying, 03:07 you know, and asking 03:08 and the media is looking at this 03:09 and scientists are looking at this, 03:10 people are looking at this. 03:12 You know, what can we learn from the question, 03:15 why is this happening? 03:17 What do you think? 03:19 Well, I think that it shows immediately 03:22 that if we are asking it, we don't ask questions 03:25 about people who appear to be, 03:26 you know, normal or if we're looking at things biblically, 03:29 we see things through our God's word is showing, 03:32 heterosexuality is being God's plan throughout His word 03:36 and so it immediately indicates that we have 03:39 some kind of an abnormality on hand 03:41 and so now we want to know why. 03:44 Yeah, we have to figure this out. 03:45 Yeah. What's going on? 03:46 It shows things are not normal. That's right. 03:49 Pastor Ron, has anyone ever asked you 03:51 why are you attracted to your wife? 03:55 No. 03:56 Well, I suppose gay people have. 03:58 There are friends of mine from the past, 04:01 they can't believe that I'm the person I am today 04:03 and they wonder why, why would you go for a woman 04:07 when, you know, we knew you the way you were. 04:10 But, you know, in general society 04:12 why don't ask why a man is attracted to his wife 04:14 or why men are attracted to women 04:16 or women attracted to men. 04:18 It's when it comes to the gay issue 04:20 we start to trying to figure out why. 04:22 And certainly that does as you suggested it does 04:26 suggest that there is an automatic thought 04:30 that it's not normal or they wouldn't be asking why. 04:34 Right, that's right. 04:35 Nobody has ever asked me why I'm attracted to my wife 04:39 or when I was a teenager why I like girls. 04:42 I did have problems with controlling my desires 04:45 before I became Christian 04:47 and, you know, the battle is still on. 04:49 Certainly not out of the woods 04:51 where there is temptations all the time. 04:54 But, you know, people don't ask 04:55 why do you need to go to sleep at night 04:57 or why do you need to drink water 05:00 or why are boys attracted to girls. 05:02 But now they're asking 05:03 why is all of this gender confusion going on, 05:07 and to me the question itself shows 05:11 that something is not normal 05:13 and people are struggling to find answers. 05:16 Right. 05:17 Now, when we go to the next question 05:19 dealing with the answers or at least the factors 05:21 or the potential answers, answers, 05:23 what are the options that people are giving today 05:27 as to the reasons for this trend? 05:30 It's all over the map, 05:32 because obviously we don't go to Gods word 05:34 and you can come up with all kinds of things. 05:36 Such as. One being I was born that way. 05:40 So for me if you look at my prenatal influence 05:45 and postnatal abuse you would come up 05:47 with probable a conclusion 05:49 of being conditionally impressed 05:53 to have same sex attraction 05:55 and so based on that it would be my justification. 05:59 Okay, so the genetic factor. And you haven't-- 06:03 Pastor Ron, you told me that scientist have studied, 06:06 tells a little bit about that scientists 06:07 have studied the genes and are they concluding that 06:10 it really is-- there is a gay gene 06:12 or isn't there a gay gene, or the jury still out? 06:15 Well, there have been studies that have been discovered 06:21 to have them done with the bias, 06:24 without-- which were not truly scientific 06:27 in which they did report that it was genetic 06:30 and so forth but when science goes in without an agenda 06:35 and truly look scientifically at the issue 06:39 like the identical twin studies is gone on for decades. 06:43 The twins share the same DNA so if one twin is gay, 06:47 you would expect the other one to be gay. 06:50 If it were genetic but the percentage of that 06:54 happening is roughly around seven percent 06:56 rather than 100 percent. 06:58 So that's studying itself has debunks that theory. 07:02 However I know Wayne feels the same way. 07:05 I for years believed that I was just born this way, 07:09 before I did any research, before I studied my own life 07:12 and before I studied Gods word. 07:14 I believe I was born that way, 07:16 but looking back on my life there are all kinds of factors 07:22 that I could put the blame on. 07:25 I was sexually molested when I was four years old 07:27 by a farmhand that totally derailed me 07:30 from that day forward. 07:32 I had wild fantasies and wild imaginations 07:35 and I never shared any of that with anyone. 07:37 That had I big affect and I blame that. 07:40 I was victimized repeatedly in the grade school. 07:42 I was emotionally abused by my father, 07:45 who praise the Lord was converted in 07:47 and he died as the best friend of mine. 07:50 There were all kinds of things I could blame, 07:53 when I went through my divorce, 07:54 because I came out of the closet 07:56 and we needed a gay life. 07:59 My wife and I did some counseling 08:01 with Christians pastors and psychiatrist 08:04 and some of them told her to just divorce this man, 08:07 get on with your life that kind can never change. 08:11 That's when I started blaming God himself 08:14 and may forgive me for doing that but for years. 08:17 He has forgiven you. 08:18 I blamed God for making me that way 08:22 and not being able to change me or not wanting to change me 08:25 and I think that's what hurt me most 08:27 was to think that God didn't care 08:29 and didn't want to change me. 08:30 So I think many people blame God 08:33 when they say I was born this way they're blaming God. 08:36 When they say God made me this way, 08:37 they're blaming God. 08:39 Yeah, I found I was blaming God a lot. 08:41 You know, and people that I hear say 08:43 you know God made me this way. 08:46 But God really didn't make us this way, 08:48 because we need to think back at the beginning 08:51 and recognize that when God created 08:53 Adam and Eve, they were the only two perfect people 08:57 that He created. 08:58 Once sin took place and we began to be born, 09:03 we have-- we were born with of fallen nature 09:06 and we have the sins of our fathers on us. 09:09 That's right. 09:10 That's right, so, okay so--, 09:11 they are Pastor Ron, and Wayne, 09:15 you would say that an accurate consensus 09:17 is really it's probably not in the genes, 09:20 its more in the environment, 09:21 its more in mom, dad abuse, 09:24 you know these kind of factors 09:26 that are growing up in a dysfunctional home. 09:28 At least we know that in many cases 09:30 those are contributing factors. 09:31 I think there's another factor which would be just, 09:34 you know, Hollywood, people watch talk show host 09:38 that they really like or football players 09:41 and you know musicians and they-- 09:43 they then come out of a closet they openly met 09:45 that they're gay and people look at that 09:48 and they say you know, 09:49 maybe that's something I ought to try. 09:50 Sure. 09:51 You mentioned something about the-- 09:53 Yes, I-- That this is the drug of, of-- 09:54 The experimental drug of this age, 09:58 it's the lower of the forbidden 09:59 that's the term that you shared with me, 10:01 but that's really it, this is a taboo area 10:05 and society tends to push at the fence. 10:07 Well, this is a fence post, and they are pushing it 10:10 there's it's another area to experiment. 10:12 But what people don't realize 10:14 is how highly addictive homosexuality is, 10:19 it's seen as addictive-- 10:21 as far we have the bondage of sin. 10:24 You know, they say, try you'll like it 10:25 and so there's a song out there called "I kissed a girl," 10:29 and I think a lot of girls listen to that song 10:31 and they think hey, you know, why not try. 10:32 Yeah, and then when you try it 10:34 they say you try it, you'll like it 10:35 and then once you try it, it's like the smoking, 10:37 you start smoking, you start drinking, 10:39 you start checking out that kind of sexuality. 10:42 And before you know it, you are hooked. 10:46 When I worked in the years 10:48 that I worked in the prostitution, 10:50 I had many heterosexual men 10:52 that were calling me as a result of my add. 10:54 It was because they had reached the point in their marriage 10:57 that it didn't have the spark that it had 11:00 when a man and a woman first meet each other 11:03 and so what they were looking for was the spirit of adventure 11:06 and took aloud and do you something-- 11:07 You know and for some they would turn around 11:09 and decide oh, I think I'm gay now. 11:12 So, anyway whatever the reason 11:14 or the contributing factors, let's go to the Bible, 11:17 let's turn into the Bible 11:18 and let the Bible shed some light on this topic 11:22 because that's what we really want to do is 11:23 you know the world looks 11:24 at a different perspective people look at their emotions, 11:26 their hearts and their struggles. 11:28 But this is the clarifying book that sheds light 11:34 into our experience and helps us, 11:36 and helps us to take wise choices. 11:39 Right, you know you mentioned the word heart 11:41 and it takes me immediately to a verse 11:44 that says, 11:46 "The heart is deceitful above all things, 11:49 and desperately wicked, who can know it?" 11:53 So that shows me that our hearts 11:55 can be influenced to gain our feelings 11:58 can speak to our hearts and make us think that, 12:00 that's the truth that we need to live by. 12:02 And we can-- we can-- 12:03 what our hearts want to do, 12:05 we can then grab on to the potential 12:09 why reasons and excuses whether God did it 12:12 or the genes or you know I was abused 12:14 or whatever it is as an excuse 12:18 and that's where we want to focus on the blame game 12:21 that the blame that the issue of blaming 12:24 has been a problem for a long time. 12:26 It really goes back to the Garden of Eden, 12:27 it actually goes back to Lucifer. 12:28 Lucifer blamed God and it wasn't God's fault. 12:31 And then when Adam, Adam and Eve were specifically told 12:34 in the Garden of Eden in Genesis Chapter 2, 12:37 "They that were not to eat from the forbidden fruit," 12:40 but they did. 12:42 You know Eve was seduced. 12:43 She was tempted at the tree by a slick serpent 12:47 who offered her a great experience, 12:50 a wonderful experience. 12:51 This will be great, just you know don't listen to God, 12:53 eat this fruit I can talk now, 12:55 the serpent mind have said look what, 12:57 what-- if I'm just a snake and I can talk 12:59 think of what this fruit will do for you, Eve. 13:01 The bible doesn't gives us all the dialog, 13:03 some of the dialog, maybe that was all the dialog. 13:06 But anyway Eve was-- 13:07 she was tricked, she was seduced. 13:08 She thought it was for-- Yeah, cost was to doubt God. 13:10 Yes, she doubted God, and she thought 13:12 this was gonna be great and she ate the fruit 13:15 and then she took it to Adam, 13:17 she became the tempter herself, offered it to Adam. 13:20 He ate, he knew what he was doing, 13:21 he choose his wife above the Lord, 13:24 and then the significant thing is the point 13:26 that I want to focus on is that after they sinned 13:29 God came to them in the garden 13:31 and said Adam, what did you do? 13:33 And Adam said, he said, 13:35 the woman that you gave to be with me 13:39 she tempted me and I ate. 13:41 So she is blaming-- he is blaming God 13:44 and his wife and then God said to Eve, simple question. 13:48 Did you do what I told you not to do? 13:51 And she said the serpent, 13:54 you know, he tempted me and I ate. 13:57 So what's happening is they're now in sin 14:00 and because of their sin, they are blaming, 14:03 they're excusing their actions 14:06 and Adam blamed God and the woman, 14:08 and the woman blamed the serpent and haven't we all, 14:12 whether its this issue or any other temptation 14:15 and fall haven't we all been repeating their history. 14:20 Now we're in a mess. That's right. 14:22 Now blame game is being going on for 6,000 years 14:24 and even when we're Christians, 14:26 we still tend to fall into that trap 14:29 when we make mistakes. 14:31 Our knee jerk reaction is to come up with an excuse 14:35 and quite often it's the nearest person. 14:38 That's right. 14:39 You know, I've seen that in my own life many times 14:41 and I'm sure we all having a-- 14:42 you know my kids bless my children, 14:44 I love my kids so much, and they're good kids 14:47 all things considering, by the grace of God, 14:50 but anyway Abby, will often say you know Seth, 14:52 my buddy was Seth, Seth he-- 14:54 and then Seth will say but Abby, and its just typical, 14:58 its typical the human nature 15:00 whether its gay issue, or whether its whatever issue. 15:03 This one is just self blame, you know. 15:05 Yeah, we can hate ourselves, 15:07 or what you know we can blame all kinds of things. 15:11 So again let's go back to the Bible. 15:12 Pastor Ron, isn't there a verse about excuses 15:16 that specifically apply to this issue in Romans? 15:19 Well, in Romans, with first of all in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, 15:24 we read about the mystery of inequity, 15:28 to really to-- to be able to explain sin 15:33 would be too excuse it or justify it 15:36 and we read in Romans Chapter 1 15:40 we were discussing this in lengthy the other day 15:42 and another program about woman leaving the natural use, 15:50 woman with woman and men with men 15:53 burning in their lust one toward another 15:55 but in Roman 1:20 it tells us plainly 15:59 that they are without excuse. 16:03 So there really is no excuse for sin. 16:06 It is the mystery of in equity. 16:10 And ultimately choice is involved. 16:12 This is why, Steve I have found 16:15 or I have not found in the Bible 16:17 that there is any information to explain sin or to, 16:24 you know, the cause of it. 16:26 Whatever the Bible from cover to cover 16:28 really seems to be dealing with the solution, 16:31 there really is no excuse. 16:34 Yeah, and this is a powerful text 16:35 because Romans 1:26, 27 deals specifically 16:38 with this issue that we're talking about. 16:40 You know men burning in their desires 16:42 for men and woman with woman 16:43 there is actually 24 sins listed here not just those 16:47 but many others and at least a half of them 16:50 or probably most of them apply to all of us somewhere 16:53 but yet in the midst of all of these-- 16:55 this list is point blank straightforward, 16:58 you know, no compromise list that God gives us 17:01 of different sins and says like you mention, Ron. 17:04 Pastor Ron, in verse 20 it says they are without excuse. 17:07 So regardless of the temptations 17:10 or the factors or the, 17:12 you know, mysterious causes going on behind the scenes, 17:16 still sin is mysterious and ultimately 17:20 there is a choice that we have to make. 17:22 And if we choose to go along with what we know to be wrong, 17:28 there is no excuse for that. 17:32 And isn't that really a part of the big issue 17:34 is to accept that fact? 17:36 Right. 17:37 Yeah, and looking back at my life, 17:40 I can trace what happened to me. 17:43 Dwayne can trace what happened. 17:45 So we have explanation, but explanation is not excuse 17:50 because explanation still throughout 17:54 all of our experiences, we still had to choose to give in, 17:59 choose to yield to that temptation, 18:02 choose to go into that lifestyle. 18:05 So ultimately the choice, it is a matter of choice 18:08 and especially, and I know this is not going to be 18:12 a popular statement, its not in harmony 18:15 with conventional thinking or political correctness 18:20 but if a person really feels that they were born gay, 18:25 and the Lord comes along and says 18:26 well, you can be born again. 18:29 Now that person is faced with a choice. 18:31 Yes. Yes. 18:32 And if they have felt all their lives 18:35 it was not a matter of choice and then the word comes along 18:38 and says but you can be born again. 18:40 Good point. Yeah. 18:41 Now they're faced with choice from that day and forever more 18:45 they must admit it's a choice. 18:48 You know, it just leads to me another text. 18:49 Yeah. 18:50 In Exodus 25 where it says, God says, I'm a jealous God 18:57 visiting the iniquity of the fathers 18:59 upon the children to the third and fourth generations 19:02 of those who hate me. 19:05 So there is a factor 19:07 where what the parents do affects the kids 19:09 but even when those kids grow up, 19:11 they still have to make a choice. 19:13 And God doesn't hold us accountable 19:15 for the environmental factors. 19:18 Exactly. 19:19 Even if the genetics were there or if they're there 19:23 or whatever the parental situation is, 19:26 God ultimately holds us responsible for the choice. 19:29 And like you said if we, we have to choose 19:32 to get into this lifestyle 19:34 and we have to make a choice to get out. 19:37 Yeah. 19:38 You know I'm reminded of Joyce Meyer's ministries 19:42 and everyone once in a while sure share about her childhood 19:46 and before she was 15 years old, 19:48 her father had abused her, 19:50 sexually abused her over 200 times. 19:52 Wow. 19:53 And she shares that, you know, if God can reach me 19:57 and put me in a position of ministry today 20:00 with the bitterness and hurt that I had on my heart, 20:03 He can reach anybody with any cultivated 20:05 or hereditary sin anywhere. 20:08 Wow. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. 20:12 Yeah, just frightening to think 20:13 what's happening to kids these days and-- 20:16 You know, in this text 20:17 that you were just reading from the second commandment, 20:21 it's interesting to me that that principle works in reverse 20:26 when a person is converted. 20:29 Now he can start that trend upward 20:32 under the third and fourth generation 20:34 by his influence and passing on to his children 20:37 positive and godly trades and principles-- 20:41 That consequences work both ways. 20:43 Yes. 20:44 Now Pastor Ron, is there's a verse 20:45 you shared with me earlier 20:47 from Jeremiah about the pivotal point. 20:51 If we choose to go into a lifestyle or any temptation 20:55 then we have to make a choice to get out. 20:58 And what are those choices that we have to make 21:01 is near verse in Jeremiah about that? 21:02 Yes, and you know for three years the Lord, 21:06 I'm sure it was a Lord visiting me in the dream 21:08 in which I live through the coming of a Jesus 21:12 as a lost person. 21:14 And I resisted that but eventually 21:16 I got to the point where I stopped blaming God, 21:20 realizing that I can keep on blaming God, 21:23 until He does come in the clouds of glory 21:24 I'm still lost. 21:26 And at that point my consciences kicked in 21:29 and what I later learned in Jeremiah 3 21:33 that God says "Only acknowledge is thy iniquity." 21:36 Thy meaning yours. 21:37 Your iniquity not everyone else's which is blame. 21:40 I acknowledge your iniquity 21:42 and I will heal your backsliding. 21:45 And that was a very powerful and pivot able text for me. 21:48 Well, isn't that the battle, I mean that we all have, 21:51 if we be yield it to temptation and we've gone was sin. 21:53 Adam and Eve did the same thing. 21:55 The battle inside of our heads is whether we are willing 21:59 to really be honest with ourselves, 22:01 with our consciences and with God 22:04 and to acknowledge our sin 22:07 and to recognize that sin is sin. 22:11 You know, I think about Adam and Eve, 22:12 and Adam really just should have responded Lord 22:15 when He said did you do it? 22:16 He should have said, I did and I'm sorry. 22:19 And same thing with Eve, I did and I'm sorry. 22:23 And that's the battle is to be willing 22:26 to make that acknowledgement 22:29 and that humbling of our hearts. 22:31 Yeah, you know the upside 22:33 and the most beautiful thing about all of this 22:36 is that Jesus knows the pain on your heart. 22:39 He knows what conditions you've been through 22:42 and yet He offers to you His strength, His power 22:46 if you're surrendering to Him and turn your life over to Him, 22:50 He will wash you with His blood, 22:52 He will make you whiter than snow, 22:54 He will give you a fresh start, He puts hope in your heart, 22:57 He offers you redemption, it is a beautiful thing. 23:00 Hallelujah. It's a healing thing. 23:02 Yeah, it's hard to admit our sin 23:04 and you know-- I know from myself 23:05 and I'm sure with others the feeling is 23:08 if you acknowledge that this is sin 23:11 you're entering darkness that's what you think, 23:13 I can't admit that because I admit this I'm lost. 23:17 It's to dark but the amazing truth is 23:21 that when we acknowledge our sin for what it is-- 23:25 that's right, as somebody once said, 23:28 honesty is the path to peace. 23:32 And purity and the good news is that God loves us, 23:36 He know what we've done. Yeah. 23:37 It's not a revelation to Him, and we just-- 23:40 We just waiting. 23:41 That's right, so if we admit it and humble ourselves 23:45 and make the choice to come back to Him 23:47 and to give our lives to Him 23:48 we have the assurance that He will forgive, He loves us. 23:53 Admit and submit. 23:54 That's right, admit and submit, good. 23:57 This whole text tells me 23:59 that God wants us to acknowledge 24:01 that what we're dealing with is a sin issue. 24:04 And you know He does not promise to save us 24:07 from an acceptable alternative lifestyle. 24:11 Jesus came to say this from our sins 24:13 and so He said if you will acknowledge 24:15 this is a sin issue I can help you 24:17 but otherwise I have to stand by and wait. 24:20 Yeah, that's right, and that's where all the powers 24:23 of Lucifer and self justification 24:27 because that's what he did in heaven. 24:28 He justified himself, he refuse to humble himself 24:31 and finally got kicked out. 24:33 And that power of self justification 24:37 is working within all of us. 24:38 We see it in Adam and Eve 24:40 its been going on down through out history 24:42 and again that is where the battle 24:43 is inside of my heart, my mind all of our hearts 24:47 are we willing to face up to the sin issue 24:53 and humble ourselves and ask God to save us 24:57 from our own selves in our sins. 25:00 He is a very patient God, you know He waited for me 25:03 for nearly 40 years and you know 25:05 as long as you have breath in your body, 25:08 you know, God is there for you 25:10 to surrender your life over to Him. 25:11 Amen. 25:12 And your life is a testimony to them. 25:13 Yeah, it's a big radical-- 25:15 I mean all of our lives are testimonies 25:19 to the grace of God. 25:21 You know sometime people think 25:22 well you know I would never do that 25:23 but you've hear the phrase 25:25 "but for the grace of God, there go I." 25:27 And if we were in that person shoes, 25:29 growing up the way they grew up 25:31 influence the way they were influenced, 25:33 you know we would-- we might make the same choices. 25:37 So again but choice is the key 25:39 but chose whatever the background to go in 25:42 and we can choose to get out. 25:45 And once who make the choice 25:47 that's where we have to start relying upon 25:50 someone up there who can really get us out 25:54 because we can't get out ourselves. 25:56 And our next program is gonna deal 25:58 with the healing process more directly 26:01 but I'd like to close 26:02 we have just a little bit of time left. 26:03 I'd like to close with something 26:06 that Jesus said in Luke Chapter 4 26:09 one of Jesus talks in a town called Nazareth. 26:14 It says that the book, the Bible was delivered to him 26:17 and he read in the synagogue these words. 26:20 Luke 4:18 Jesus said 26:21 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, 26:24 because he has anointed me to preach 26:26 the good news to the poor, 26:28 he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, 26:31 to preach deliverance to the captives, 26:33 and the recovering of sight to the blind, 26:37 and to set at liberty those who are bruised." 26:40 Jesus said this is His mission. His mission is to heal. 26:44 He came to heal the brokenhearted, 26:46 He came to set the captives free, 26:47 He came to open the eyes of the blind, 26:49 He came to love and to heal to those 26:52 who are wounded by this world 26:53 and by their own choices to go into sin 26:56 and that what this is all about. 26:58 Our next program will deal more, more in detail 27:01 with the power of the healer that we want you to know, 27:03 whatever your past whatever your sin, 27:04 whatever your struggle that Jesus Christ loves you 27:07 and He is available to you, 27:08 to heal your heart and to change your life. 27:11 Amen. 27:12 We will be back with another program 27:14 on Coming Out to focus on that Healer. 27:19 If you would like to order the 13 part Coming Out series 27:22 for $34.95 plus shipping, call 1-800-782-4253 27:27 or write to White Horse Media, PO Box 1139, 27:30 Newport, Washington, 99156. 27:33 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Dwayne Blakely 27:35 and Mike Carducci are each available 27:37 to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:39 To schedule a speaking engagement 27:41 contact Coming Out Ministries 27:42 by calling 360-936-8514, 27:46 or visit comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-02-19