Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000010
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00:09 Is salvation by sex?
00:11 We have something to say about that 00:12 in this addition of Coming Out. 01:01 Welcome to part 10 01:03 of the serious called Coming Out 01:04 that is dealing with the S word. 01:07 The word that lot of people don't want to talk about 01:09 but on the other hand, 01:10 a whole lot of people are talking about it, 01:12 and experiencing it, 01:14 and it's the S-E-X word, the word is sex. 01:16 And we are here to discuss a concept 01:19 called Salvation by Sex? 01:22 Is this possible or what does this mean? 01:24 And I'm here with two of the co-founders, 01:27 there are actually five co-founders. 01:29 We've got two here 01:30 of a ministry called Coming Out, 01:32 that is addressing these issues and trying to bring 01:34 clarification according to the Bible. 01:37 And according to the biblical message 01:39 of the grace of Jesus Christ, dealing with issues 01:43 that really just need to be talked about. 01:45 Pastor Ron Woolsey and Wayne Blakely, 01:48 this is program 10. 01:50 We've been through a lot together 01:51 and we've got more to com. 01:52 So thank you for again joining us here 01:56 in Priest River, Idaho at the headquarters 01:57 of the White Horse Media to discuss this topic. 02:01 My first question to you is, 02:03 why do you think that sex 02:08 has become so important to humanity? 02:14 Personally I think that 02:15 it add to some level of confirmation. 02:23 Church wise I see it, 02:26 I immediately goes in my mind to prove of conversion. 02:31 And so if you have sex 02:35 or you have marriage that's taken place, 02:38 that says to someone today 02:39 that I'm no longer gay and that I'm straight. 02:42 Like that would be the focus. 02:44 Okay, and then you've got more to say about that I'm sure. 02:46 Pastor Ron, why do you think 02:48 sex has become so important to humans today? 02:53 Well, sex is being very much marketed. 02:57 We've heard the term that sex sales. 03:01 It is used to in advertising to sell all kinds of products. 03:05 It's used so heavily in the media, movies today 03:10 if they don't have foul language, 03:12 and violence and sex, they don't go anywhere. 03:16 So our society is just bombarded 03:19 with this idea of over sexuality, 03:23 and children are getting it from-- 03:26 well, actually from kindergarten out 03:28 there being inundated through the media 03:31 and outside sources 03:34 to where they start thinking about this long before 03:36 they're ever really equipped to deal with it. 03:39 You know, I'll add my opinion on to the-- 03:41 on the question I think, I think sex is important 03:43 or has become really important, or is important, 03:46 because it's part of our make up. 03:49 You know, we have feelings, 03:50 we have desires, something that originally 03:52 God put in human beings sexuality. 03:56 It is a part of us but has it become-- 04:01 has it become too important to human beings today 04:04 as if in overblown so then it becomes-- 04:07 it become bigger than it really is. 04:10 Can I add just a little bit of quicken-- 04:11 Sure. Of course. 04:13 Is that I think we've got the focus wrong in that, 04:17 the sex was never meant to be an orientation, 04:20 that sex in Genesis from God tells us 04:23 it was a gift between one man and one women. 04:26 And many of us have come to see as sex as a right 04:30 rather than that gift. 04:31 Okay, we know that it wasn't original plan, 04:36 but it's not-- it's not the some total of life. 04:39 I see now keep some people I mean, 04:42 we just think sex, we live sex, 04:44 we can't get sex out of our minds. 04:48 When I say we, I'm referring to general, 04:50 many people and that's certainly can't be right. 04:55 You know, it's become something that, that defines us 05:00 and, Wayne, I know that you have a special, 05:02 special burdened about this topic 05:04 because of what has happened to you, 05:06 you've come out of the homosexual lifestyle, 05:10 a gay lifestyle you, but you're not married. 05:13 Right. 05:14 Pastor Ron is married, he was married 05:16 and now that was before and now you're married again. 05:19 And I think you know, you can testify 05:22 or just share your own feelings about what, 05:24 you know, how you've made, 05:25 you've been made to feel because you're not married yet. 05:30 Just tell us about that. 05:31 Right, and may who knows may never be. 05:35 I would never diminish 05:37 what has happened to Ron, or for Ron, 05:40 I think God gifted a women in Ron's life 05:44 and I praise God that God has done now. 05:47 But I also see throughout the word of God 05:50 and through my own genuine conversion that 05:54 so far in my life God hasn't placed 05:57 before me an erotic desire for a female. 06:02 I don't think that my salvation 06:04 is based on having the right kind of sex 06:07 with the right kind of person 06:09 or with the right gendered person. 06:11 But where I go and I speak today, 06:13 I am in fact even before I go to speak, 06:15 there will be pastors and people that will ask, 06:19 do you have a girlfriend? 06:20 Are you married now? 06:23 If the answer is no, right, 06:25 if the answer is no, 06:26 then you must be clinging to something in your past. 06:30 You're not really truly redeemed 06:32 and it invalidates me, 06:34 and so I'm-- you know, having been, 06:38 if you look back in gay culture, 06:39 you'll find that most individuals 06:41 who are gay or hypersensitive 06:43 and a little bit at that has continued to follow me. 06:47 Ron, stop smiling so much 06:50 and so when I get that 06:53 it's kind of a knee-jerk reaction, 06:55 because again it's that constant invalidation to say, 06:58 you're not redeemed, 07:00 when I know with all my heart that Jesus has accepted me, 07:04 and it's not based on the kind of sex that I'm having. 07:07 But it's on the fact that I believe in Jesus Christ 07:10 and my focus is on Jesus and not on sex. 07:13 And this is really-- this is an important issue 07:15 that's why we're talking about it. 07:16 Especially to those who have had 07:20 or have same sex attractions, 07:23 you know, men for men, women for women. 07:27 You know, it could be a real burdened on them 07:30 to believe if they come to the Lord. 07:32 If they become Christians, 07:34 if they give their lives to God and want help and wholeness 07:38 that they have this impression that I'm not there yet. 07:42 I haven't arrived yet. I'm not at peace yet. 07:45 I don't have real acceptance with God yet 07:48 until if woman's attracted to woman 07:52 until she just falls head over heels 07:54 for a man or vice versa. 07:56 And so I think, you know, 07:57 a lot of people in the community 07:59 that are struggling with these issues, 08:01 you know, we need some clarifications 08:03 and clarity on this two, right, 08:05 that's why we're talking about this that 08:07 your identity and your relationship with God 08:11 is not defined primarily by your attraction 08:18 to either the same sex. 08:22 We still have the temptations or opposite sex, 08:26 you know, there is something, 08:27 there is something bigger than that, 08:29 that we can find our identity in 08:32 which we'll talk about not only 08:33 it's not something, it's someone 08:36 but we'll zero in a little while. 08:39 Ron, I could see you wanting to say something else. 08:41 In my situation, 08:43 I grew up being attracted to the same gender, 08:49 ever since I could remember and it really goes back 08:52 to being molested when I was a child. 08:54 But I grew up and I had, I dated 08:56 and I had girlfriends and all of that. 09:00 When I was in college and I was so troubled 09:02 and so burdened with these tendencies and desires. 09:07 I really came to the conclusion 09:08 that if I were married, it would take care of it. 09:12 I mean the subject is salvation by sex, 09:15 and I really saw that if just get married 09:20 that will satisfy my sex drive or being over sexed 09:23 to whatever is going on in my mind. 09:25 And that'll shift you from one to the other, 09:27 from the desire for a man to a desire for a women 09:29 and everything will be fine. 09:30 I just thought that being able to have sex 09:32 in harmony with the word of God, 09:34 and with the blessing of Jesus would take care of everything. 09:37 Steve, it was a terrible mistake, 09:40 I mean I married a wonderful woman 09:41 who is a Christian, 09:42 and wanted to be a missionary's wife 09:44 and all of that but it was soon 09:47 after I was married that I realized, 09:49 I made a terrible mistake 09:51 that marriage was not the solution to my problem. 09:55 Right. 09:56 It was years later, 09:57 that I've discovered that Jesus was the solution. 09:59 That's right, and also getting out of the marriage 10:02 was not the solution to your problem neither really. 10:04 And, you know it to me, it's tragic 10:06 when I watched certain programs or read certain things 10:10 and people that I know or that I become acquainted 10:13 with that they have left their spouses, 10:16 they've left their children, 10:19 they've violated their marriage vows, 10:22 that they brought unconceivable pain 10:25 and damage so that they could, 10:28 you know go out and find themselves 10:32 and find their identity 10:34 through that fulfillment of an attraction to either, 10:40 you know, with a man, another woman 10:42 or with a man or another man 10:44 or a woman leaving her husband 10:45 because she wants to be with another women. 10:47 You know the whole thing is just-- 10:50 it's just tragic and it's resulting 10:52 in so much, so much pain. 10:55 You know, Satan, just rejoices over that 10:58 because his whole purpose is to cause pain. 11:01 And I think one of the sure indications 11:05 to me that this is a sin issue is that 11:07 it causes people so much pain. 11:10 You know, God's way causes no one pain, 11:13 but if you're hurting you parents, 11:15 and you're hurting your wife, 11:16 and you're hurting your children 11:18 and you're hurting other people. 11:19 Isn't that an indication that, that sin in involved? 11:22 That's right. 11:23 The missing element is clearly to me today 11:27 is intimacy with Jesus Christ. 11:29 You see if-- 11:30 that's missing, then everything gets all out of wag. 11:33 And we're gonna zero in on that, 11:35 like a train before we've done. 11:38 But I want to go back to-- 11:39 When you mention the name Satan, 11:41 and when you said that it just triggered in my mind, 11:44 the thought that, you know, 11:45 Satan is an angel, he's a fallen angel. 11:49 And as far as we know, he was not created 11:52 with the capacity to procreate. 11:55 And I, you know, I have an opinion on that, 11:58 that one of the reasons 11:59 why Satan hates humanity so much. 12:03 And wants that mess us up 12:04 is because he doesn't have that original capacity 12:08 so he looks at men, he looks at women, 12:11 and he just hates us, he hates God. 12:12 And he wants to mess everything up, 12:14 bring all this confusion makes sex, 12:16 you know, so important, 12:17 some people would think of salvation by sex. 12:19 Some people think that through, 12:20 through sex they're gonna be fulfilled. 12:22 And like you mentioned the media 12:24 and all this misunderstandings, it's just all over the place, 12:27 and it's because the devil hates humanity. 12:30 And he's trying to mess us up on sex. 12:32 Yeah, I think he looks at-- in fact somebody came to me 12:34 after presentation of mine said, 12:36 why do you think that Satan has such a heyday 12:38 with the sex thing? 12:40 And I said, I don't know 12:41 'cause he's dealing with our feelings, 12:42 and they said, yeah, but that and a whole lot more. 12:45 He doesn't have the capability of doing that himself 12:48 so he pushes the sex button, and he watches rape, 12:51 he watches child molestation, he watches the counterfeit 12:54 of God's union of a man and a woman. 12:56 He pushes all these buttons based on sex. 12:59 Do you think he has a problem with pornography? 13:03 In other words, 13:04 he enjoys watching the violation-- 13:07 He likes initiating that problem, that's for sure. 13:10 And there's all, you know, we have a whole, 13:11 we have a sex, we have a world 13:14 that is mixed up and often addicted to sex. 13:17 Now I want to-- we got so much time I want to move on. 13:20 Reparative therapy is a term or a phrase 13:24 that I've heard a number of times, 13:27 and I think it ties in with this topic. 13:29 So explain what is it and what's wrong with it? 13:33 To me the focus on reparative therapy 13:35 is the wrong place. 13:36 Okay, what is it? What is reparative therapy? 13:37 Reparative therapy says that we can take a gay person 13:41 and through the course of therapy, 13:42 we can change their focus 13:44 and help them to become heterosexual. 13:46 Okay. 13:47 In Reparative therapy, in most reparative therapies 13:50 there is the missing element of Jesus Christ. 13:52 So now the focus is not on Jesus, 13:55 but it's on the type of sex we're having. 13:57 And so if you are being called or someone's telling you 14:02 that they want you to become normal, 14:04 so you go to a reparative therapist 14:07 and they promise that you'll change. 14:09 And so you keep going through, 14:10 and there is some really bizarre things 14:12 that they'll have you do 14:13 that we don't have time to go into, 14:16 but it is to help you lose your attraction 14:18 to the same gender and to engage with the intimacy 14:21 between a man and a woman, 14:23 and then hopefully by the end 14:24 of the course of treatment, you'll be straight. 14:27 If you fail then what's your recourse? 14:30 Is you either like you fail 14:32 because you don't think you are good enough person. 14:34 You end up committing suicide 14:35 or you return to the gay community 14:37 and you mean never have the desire 14:39 to come out of the gay community again 14:41 'cause you're sure you can't end up 14:43 having sex with the woman. 14:45 And so again it removes the focus of Jesus Christ. 14:50 Pastor Ron? 14:52 Yes, yeah, I agree with that. 14:56 And he mentioned the fact that some of these 14:59 people that have tried it 15:00 and failed, they commit suicide and you know in the ministry 15:05 that we have that's one of the charges 15:08 that we keep hearing that your message 15:11 will cause people to commit suicide 15:13 because they can't do what you're doing, 15:15 you are an exception. 15:17 Of course, I would say every Christian should feel 15:20 that they are an exception. 15:22 We're an exception to the rule when we're redeemed, 15:25 but we have to understand too that 15:27 suicide is the high incidence among the gay community, 15:32 with or without reparative therapy. 15:34 And I don't think we can blame reparative therapy, 15:37 and I don't think-- 15:39 there again it's the blame game, isn't it? 15:41 Suicide's a problem all across. 15:42 People of all walks of life commits suicide. 15:45 And I think that takes the focus 15:47 of the purpose of the gospel, 15:50 when we start blaming suicide on preaching the gospel. 15:54 So reparative therapy is a method, a worldly method 15:59 of trying to make a homosexual person 16:01 heterosexual or lesbian, 16:03 someone that likes boys and so often it doesn't work. 16:08 And so but again we have the premise, 16:12 you know, salvation by sex that if you, 16:13 if you change your sex 16:16 then you're "saved" or you're normal, 16:20 or you are the way you're supposed to be through sex. 16:24 Yeah. 16:25 And yet still you know, to me it isn't an again 16:27 an overemphasis is on sex and-- 16:31 It's not necessarily 16:32 a worldly program, I mean there are-- 16:34 It's in the churches too. 16:35 There are Christians involved in this too. 16:37 You know I read, I just want one quick second then, 16:40 I read Alan Chambers' book Leaving Homosexuality 16:43 when he was the president of Exodus International 16:46 and he addressed this. 16:47 And it was a very powerful point that he made 16:49 that for him as a former homosexual, 16:54 he said, he had to really get it straight 16:58 and the message was that 17:00 God's primary calling on his life 17:03 was not to change him from a homosexual 17:07 into a heterosexual or at least not a, 17:09 you know and obviously he wasn't at that time 17:11 when he wrote the book of practicing homosexual. 17:13 But God's goal was not to make him 17:16 into a heterosexual 17:18 but it was to bring him to holiness. 17:21 Exactly. 17:22 It's not from homosexuality to heterosexuality, 17:25 primarily it is to holiness 17:28 which is really God's call for married, single, 17:34 for anybody is to leave sin 17:36 behind us, leave sin behind us. 17:40 Give our lives to God and there's a verse in 1 Peter 17:44 that says God he says 17:46 "That I have called you to be holy, 17:49 be holy for I am holy, 17:50 that's my calling on your life". 17:52 Right. 17:53 That was the exact point I was going to make. 17:54 You can say that. 17:56 Yeah, when I share today, 17:57 I-- immediately I want to help people understand 18:01 the opposite of homosexuality is not so much heterosexuality. 18:05 As it is holding us or that been the opposite 18:07 of any sin or sin temptation. 18:09 Let's take a look at a Bible verse up. 18:11 Pastor Ron, you mentioned earlier 18:13 that you found a verse in Luke 17:19. 18:19 And, Wayne, why don't you look up Colossians 2:10, 18:24 we can look at both those verses 18:27 and there's a message, a real message in that 18:31 in both of these verses 18:32 concerning wholeness and salvation. 18:35 My Bible tells me in Romans 3 18:41 that a person is justified not by works, 18:46 but by his faith in Jesus Christ, 18:49 that when we chose to give up sin, 18:51 Justification which means acceptance with God, 18:55 and you are right with God, 18:57 that comes not by getting married 19:01 or changing your orientation 19:03 or having all temptation go away, 19:06 it comes when you surrender your life 19:08 and you have faith in Jesus Christ. 19:10 Now read those couple of other texts. 19:13 Now this one in Luke 17 is about the Samaritan leper 19:18 that Jesus healed and He told him, 19:21 Jesus told the Samaritan, "Arise go thy way, 19:25 thy faith hath made thee whole." 19:28 Your faith has made you whole. 19:30 So this man was whole. He was whole. 19:31 Had nothing to do with marriage. 19:33 Or sex. Or sex. 19:34 Or changing his orientation. 19:35 It was faith in Jesus. 19:36 It was faith in Jesus. 19:37 And here he was, he was whole 19:39 And Jesus said that. 19:40 So in God's sight that leper who could represent sinners, 19:44 you know, we're all sinners. 19:46 And whatever our bent or our tendency 19:47 or whatever it is our sins, 19:50 Jesus said by your faith in me Jesus said, 19:54 it's made you whole. 19:55 You are a whole person once again 19:58 through your faith in the Son of God. 20:00 Okay, Wayne read the Colossians. 20:02 Sure. 20:03 "And you are complete in him, 20:05 who is the head of all principality and power." 20:09 Yeah, I just love that verse. 20:11 Yeah, you are complete. 20:14 Now, so again, you know, 20:16 God is calling us to repent of sin. 20:19 We do need to do that, 20:21 but once we've done that and we trust in Him, 20:24 we can find completeness in Christ. 20:27 Does the Bible teach that you've to be married 20:29 in order to be saved. 20:30 Nothing that I've found. 20:31 Have you found the text like that? 20:32 Well, Jesus wasn't and neither was the Apostle Paul. 20:37 And John the Baptist and Daniel and Jeremiah. 20:40 That's right, and Paul wrote in Corinthians out 20:42 to the married I say this, to the unmarried I say that, 20:45 and yeah I think of something to think about 20:47 that Jesus Christ who is God becoming a man in human form 20:52 so we could see a revelation of God's love, 20:55 Jesus Christ never had sex. 20:58 He never had sex and He never got married, 21:00 but yet are we gonna say that Jesus himself isn't complete. 21:05 You know obviously not. 21:06 So sex does not need to define us. 21:10 Right. 21:12 Life is bigger than that. 21:13 Yeah, Mathew 19 even tells us 21:15 that there will be those who would be eunuchs for heaven. 21:18 And some chose it, some are, 21:22 you know, forced like in Daniel's case. 21:23 He didn't have much of a choice. 21:25 But other people can chose, 21:26 they didn't choose it's hard to say. 21:28 He who can accept it, let him accept it. 21:30 That's right. 21:31 And so there's choices you know about. 21:33 I want to get to another, another issue 21:35 and that is the whole sex change issue, 21:38 because it's happening around us. 21:40 You know, all know people, 21:41 I went to college with a young man who was a boy. 21:45 But later on he went through a change, 21:46 he had surgery and he became a girl. 21:49 And we know that there are people 21:51 that have those changes, you know, the surgeries, 21:54 they're confused or whatever, 21:55 they feel like they should be what they're not. 21:58 And sometimes on the other side of those changes, 22:03 God makes a move on them. 22:05 Because God still loves people 22:06 that are transgenders, doesn't He? 22:08 He loves those who've had the surgery, 22:10 I mean I think Jesus really loves them, 22:12 and He just wants to get a hold of them 22:13 and change their lives, I think that. 22:15 So let's say someone comes into a-- 22:17 in awareness of this 22:19 and he really he gets on his knees, 22:23 whether he's a man who is now like a woman, 22:26 or a woman like a man, they get on their knees 22:28 and they ask Jesus to come in their heart. 22:30 And then they walk into a church. 22:32 Do they have to go through, is it salvation by sex? 22:35 Do they have to go through a sex change? 22:37 If they have the money to go through another surgery 22:39 in order for them to truly be complete 22:42 or whole in the sight of God. 22:45 You know, had to Christians to deal with this and what, 22:46 you know, what's your thought on that? 22:48 Jesus does meet us where we are 22:51 and you know it is like 22:53 when I was studying my way out of the gay life, 22:56 I was drinking margaritas and smoking cigarettes 22:59 and reading God's word looking for answers. 23:02 God met me where I was and a person like this, 23:06 you know, the Bible tells us 23:08 Jesus himself said seek ye first 23:10 the kingdom of God and His righteousness 23:13 and all these things shall be added unto you. 23:16 If a person like that comes to accept Jesus 23:19 and realizes they've made a terrible mistake. 23:22 The focus should be first developing 23:24 your relationship with Jesus 23:27 and the word says all of these things 23:29 shall be added unto you. 23:31 So the Lord will reveal unto that person 23:34 I think what needs to be done. 23:36 We don't always have the answers in our humanity. 23:41 When we meet someone in situation like that, 23:44 some of these medical conditions 23:46 and hormone conditions that are hard to explain. 23:49 Yes, you mentioned that someone that was high. 23:52 Probably ten times the level of estrogen of a woman 23:55 and this was a teenage boy with hardly any testosterone 23:58 and the parents and the pastor wanted me to tell them 24:00 what did they do. 24:02 When I met this person, 24:03 the Lord prompted me instantly 24:06 that this person's problem was not hormonal 24:10 and sex oriented, he was a person without Jesus 24:15 and I said why worry about changing 24:17 this person's identity, 24:21 general identity at this point. 24:24 What this person needs is Jesus. 24:27 Seek first Jesus, that is the main point. 24:30 The other things will come by beholding Him, 24:33 we become changed. 24:34 And they come step by step, don't they? 24:36 And if a person doesn't get to a step 24:38 where they get to have the money 24:39 or have the surgery, 24:40 you know, the Lord's gonna give us 24:41 new bodies when He comes. 24:43 And we nurture along the way. 24:45 Yes, as church congregations 24:47 we're asked to love as Jesus loved 24:50 to be disciples of Jesus, 24:52 to not so much have expectations 24:54 but to love the individual, to pray for the individual 24:57 and walk with them as they're walking with God. 24:59 So we should serve to someone, 25:00 the pastor shouldn't stand at the door of the church 25:02 and say to a transgender 25:05 who wants to come to God and come to church. 25:09 They shouldn't say, now wait, 25:10 you know, you have to go out 25:11 and get your change back, be change back 25:14 and then once you're changed back, 25:15 then we'll let you in. 25:17 The doors should be open for worship. 25:20 Membership is sacred, that's a different level 25:24 but anyone should feel that 25:25 they can walk into the doors of our churches 25:28 and find sanctuary and find Jesus. 25:31 Yeah, that the church is still should be a hospital 25:34 for sinners and we're all sinners. 25:36 And you know, sin is, it's difficult 25:40 but God deals with it all the time 25:44 and He loves sinners in spite of their sin 25:46 and He is in the business 25:47 of saving sinners from their sins. 25:49 For many years now. 25:51 And the church needs to be the hands 25:54 and the voice and the heart of the compassionate God. 25:58 That's right, who welcomes, 25:59 you know, the prodigal son when he was out there, 26:01 if he had a sex change and then he came back, 26:04 I still think the father would have run out to him 26:06 and put his arms around him 26:08 and welcomed him home, don't you think? 26:11 Yes, absolutely. 26:12 I'm sure, I'm sure. 26:13 Well, we're down near the end. 26:14 I just want to zero back in on Colossians 2:10. 26:18 To me this verse is so powerful 26:20 and it shows that we're not saved by sex. 26:22 We're not saved by sex changes. 26:24 We are saved through Jesus and He is the center. 26:31 He wants to be the center of our lives and of your life. 26:34 Colossians 2:10 says, "You are complete in Him." 26:40 If you are searching for wholeness, 26:42 it's not gonna come from sex. 26:45 Wholeness and completeness 26:47 and your humanity being restored 26:50 is going to come through Jesus Christ alone. 26:54 It's through Him and He loves you, 26:56 He wants you, no matter how messed up 26:57 you may be, He loves you, 26:59 He wants you and He's calling 27:02 wherever you are, whatever you've done. 27:04 He's calling you to give your life to Him 27:07 and He will make you complete in Him 27:09 and He'll lead you step by step where He wants you to go. 27:14 So we've got more to come, another program next, 27:16 so tune in for the next edition of Coming Out. 27:22 If you would like to order the 13 part Coming Out series 27:25 for $34.95 plus shipping, call 1-800-782-4253. 27:30 Or write to White Horse Media, 27:32 PO Box 1139, 27:33 Newport, Washington, 99156. 27:36 Pastor Ron Woolsey, Dwayne Blakely 27:38 and Mike Carducci are each available 27:40 to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:42 To schedule a speaking engagement, 27:43 contact Coming Out Ministries 27:45 by calling 360-936-8514, 27:49 or visit comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-02-19