Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Ron Woolsey, Mike Carducci
Series Code: COT
Program Code: COT000012
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00:09 Believe it or not, we are at war.
00:12 Whose side are you on? 00:14 Next on, "Coming Out." 01:01 Welcome to part 12 of "Coming Out" 01:03 a special series that deals with big issues 01:06 facing the church, the world, and our own hearts. 01:09 Our title is called, "The War Against our Souls." 01:12 We have been discussing same sex attraction 01:16 and people's struggles within themselves. 01:19 But now we're gonna take another step 01:21 and we're gonna talk about the war 01:23 that is going on against the family, 01:25 against the home, against children 01:28 and ultimately, it's against our own hearts and our souls, 01:33 trying to bring us down into a very, very dark place. 01:38 I'm here with Mike Carducci and Pastor Ron Woolsey, 01:42 two of the five co-founders of "Coming Out." 01:46 And you have dedicated your lives 01:47 to your God and to the Bible 01:50 and to helping people to understand 01:52 the issues that so many are facing. 01:54 Now let me-- before I ask you my first question, 01:56 let me just kind of give a background 01:59 that in the last 11 programs, 02:01 we have been talking as thoughtfully as we can 02:06 about the issue of same sex attraction 02:09 and how people are, you know, dealing with this and, 02:12 and the help that is available for those that are struggling. 02:16 But as we look around, it sure is pretty clear 02:21 that there is a segment that I want to stress, 02:23 a segment that doesn't seem to be struggling anymore, 02:28 they seem to have pretty much decided where they are at. 02:32 And they are taking their own stands 02:35 and they have-- there is a segment, 02:36 for a lack of a better word, 02:37 that has become quite militant in advancing their views. 02:42 So let's talk about that, tell us, 02:44 just a little bit about what's going on these days. 02:47 Well, I have a client, who told me years ago, 02:50 couple years ago, she was opening up the nursery 02:53 and that she was told that 02:55 if she wanted to receive government funding, 02:56 that if she puts same sex parent on the walls 02:59 and taught kids to cross dress, 03:02 letting-- we're talking about 2 year olds to 5 year olds 03:05 cross dressing, that she could actually 03:07 receive government funding. 03:09 And what state, what state was this in? 03:10 Tennessee. Tennessee. 03:13 So what do you think about that? 03:17 She was very upset, 03:18 and according to her Christian beliefs, 03:22 she didn't feel that was right and she was refusing the-- 03:24 the government money, 03:25 which actually made it harder for her to do business 03:27 but she was standing by her conviction 03:29 and she was not going to-- she wasn't gonna do it. 03:34 She wasn't going to budge. 03:35 She felt it's time to take a stand, 03:37 money or no money, 03:38 this just isn't, this isn't right. 03:39 Right. Pastor Ron. 03:42 Yes, Steve, in Luke, Chapter 17 we read that, 03:46 Jesus warned him, that as it was in a days of Lot, 03:49 "Thus shall it be in the day 03:51 when the Son of man is revealed." 03:53 And in other words, 03:54 the evils that were associated with Sodom and Gomorrah 03:56 would be very prevalent on a global basis 04:00 just before the coming of Jesus. 04:02 And of course, homosexuality was one of those evils 04:06 and just in our lifetime, 04:08 we've seen the gay movement seeking and fighting, 04:12 just we tolerate it and left alone. 04:15 And they've advanced to acceptance, 04:18 the level of acceptance, then to equal rights, 04:22 then to the celebration of being gay 04:25 with gay pride months and parades, 04:29 from there it is gone on to a higher level of promotion 04:33 of homosexuality through the education system. 04:38 And now beyond that, they have sought privilege 04:40 through minority status so that-- 04:43 they are looking to become a special segment of society 04:47 with special privileges. 04:49 And they are initiating legislation 04:52 through states and through, 04:54 on a national level to promote this agenda of homosexuality, 05:00 this segment that is very political and very militant. 05:04 They've now even become a persecuting power 05:07 and we have examples to show 05:09 that they've gone all the way from tolerance, 05:11 just wanting tolerance, to becoming intolerant, 05:14 to becoming the persecuting power themselves. 05:17 And I think we do want to make it clear that 05:19 this does not apply to everybody. 05:20 No, this is, that's second-- Right, right. 05:22 Sure, I mean as you were struggling 05:24 and dealing with your own life and coming out, 05:27 you certainly weren't on that kind of band wagon, were you? 05:31 I don't think we really knew what we were caught up in, 05:34 we were in the gay life and we were kind of 05:36 drafting behind this political and very aggressive movement, 05:41 not knowing where it was headed. 05:43 You know, I marched on Washington 05:45 when President Clinton was elected in office, 05:48 demanding those rights, and you know, I think that, 05:51 that even good hearted men and women 05:53 that are in the homosexual, life style-- 05:56 I don't believe that many of them 05:58 thought of as been militant, 06:00 as really just demand for equal rights 06:02 and I've certainly was involved in that 06:05 and I believe that I was entitled to those rights. 06:08 And we all, we all have certain rights. 06:10 I mean everybody has. Right. 06:11 You know, the Declaration of Independence 06:13 that we all have inalienable rights. 06:15 That's right. 06:16 And we certainly don't want to deny people 06:19 who don't believe as we do, their own rights. 06:22 And if someone chooses to, to be gay, 06:26 to live a gay lifestyle that's their choice 06:28 and I'm certainly not someone that would try to force them 06:32 otherwise, you know, even God, I mean God Himself, 06:34 He gives people freedom to make a choice. 06:36 But when, when that choice then starts pushing itself 06:42 toward my kids, you know, I have a 6 year old little girl 06:45 and a 9 year old little boy 06:47 and you know, I'm gonna draw a line. 06:49 I mean, I'm a dad and when someone is pushing 06:53 to educate my children in things that you know, 06:58 I don't agree with, 07:00 I don't think our right, you know... 07:02 But you know, Steve-- 07:03 It's just a-- it's moving my fatherhood. 07:06 Right. 07:07 You know, I've got to protect my kids. 07:08 But I'm glad that you brought that up 07:09 because I think that there are a lot of um, 07:12 homosexuals out there 07:13 that don't know that there's a choice in-- 07:15 I certainly didn't even after I got baptized 07:17 and was walking with God, 07:18 I didn't realize that there was a choice involved. 07:21 And when I made that choice, 07:22 God still respected me along that journey 07:25 and if I chose not, then He respected it. 07:27 And I believe that we as Christians 07:28 we respect everyone's right to chose. 07:31 That's right. 07:32 But we also believe that we have the opportunity, 07:34 because of what we've experienced 07:36 and what we've gone through, that we want to give 07:38 other people out there an option too 07:40 and let them know that there is an option for you. 07:42 And so we are not trying to take away anyone's rights 07:45 and I think that the church has been guilty of that 07:48 but what we're trying to do is, is to redefined 07:50 and create a safe place in church culture, 07:52 where people can come and experience 07:55 the options that are out there 07:56 and not be limited to just one or the other. 07:59 Yes, and, and we've, we've talked about that 08:03 but today, now we're zeroing in on the militant way. 08:07 Right. 08:08 And didn't you have another quote about the goal-- 08:10 Of the militant wing, when it comes to marriage 08:13 and when it comes to, you know, even my kids. 08:16 Right, this one is according to a Daniel Villarreal, 08:20 who's an LGBT journalist and activist. 08:22 He says, "Recruiting children? 08:24 You bet we are, and I would like very much 08:26 for many of these young boys to grow up 08:29 and start having sex with men" 08:31 and I changed the wording just a little bit but-- 08:33 Sure, yeah, but you know, just think of that language, 08:35 recruiting children? 08:36 You bet we are. Yeah. 08:37 And you know, I would give my life for my kids 08:41 and you know-- I'm gonna restrain myself 08:45 from saying what I really, what my heart is telling me 08:48 after hearing a statement like that, Pastor Ron. 08:50 We have another shocking statement 08:51 from a very radical homosexual activist. 08:56 This lady, a lesbian, is a journalist, 08:58 her name is Masha Gessen, she can be seen on YouTube 09:02 and this is very public. 09:05 But she reveals the ultimate goal 09:07 of the gay agenda, 09:08 this political militant segment, she says, 09:13 I mean it is the eradication of marriage altogether 09:16 and this is her quote, 09:18 "fighting for gay marriage generally involves 09:20 lying about what we're going to do with marriage 09:23 when we get there, 09:24 the institution of marriage should not exist. 09:28 We lie that the institution of marriage 09:30 is not going to change, that is a lie. 09:32 What we want is not compatible 09:35 with the institution of marriage." 09:37 And this was on a public talk show, 09:40 they're not ashamed or timid 09:44 about what their ultimate goal really is. 09:47 Let's go the Bible. Yeah. 09:49 First, let's talk about the war and how this issue 09:52 really is a war, and how it's a personal war. 09:55 Yeah, there's a text that we've discussed in Peter 1:2 10:00 and I believe verse 9 talks about coming out 10:03 which is really your motto, your text 10:05 to come out of the darkness into his marvelous light. 10:08 And then verse 11, Mike, why don't you read verse 11? 10:12 Because it uses the word war. 10:14 "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, 10:18 abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul" 10:22 "Which was against the soul", so what is that for say, 10:25 is warring against the soul? 10:27 Fleshy lust? 10:28 Yeah, fleshy lusts, and I think it's safe to apply that 10:32 to many different kinds of lust. 10:34 Wouldn't you say? Yes. 10:35 I mean it's not one lust, there's all kinds of lusts, 10:38 but they are you know, lust from the flesh, 10:41 what the flesh wants to do, contrary to God's will. 10:45 You know, my own fleshy lusts are warring against my soul 10:50 and you've dealt with that, I've dealt with that. 10:53 We're all dealing with that. 10:54 That's right, we are dealing with that and we have to-- 10:57 you know, I've just come to the conclusion that 10:59 I've got to take a stand, against my own, 11:02 you know, my own desires. 11:04 If I'm gonna live a pure, clean life, 11:06 I have to take a stand, I have to fight back 11:10 against temptation, against my flesh, 11:12 against things that would pull me into darkness. 11:15 And this whole issue of the flesh and lust, 11:18 it uses the word lust too. 11:19 It says fleshy lusts which war against the soul, 11:23 that you know I, I believe the devil is using sex 11:27 and other lusts to, to destroy people. 11:31 And we're in about-- we're in a war. 11:34 It's very, very serious. 11:35 And what we're seeing in society 11:38 is a reflection of that war, is it not? 11:41 Yes, absolutely. 11:43 Now in just very close by here, in Oregon, 11:47 just as here we had a report of the, 11:51 of an Oregon Christian bakery 11:53 facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines 11:57 after refusing to make a wedding cake 11:59 for a lesbian couple. 12:01 There was severe backlash when they took their stand, 12:04 now they're protest and picketing 12:07 and threats to customers 12:09 and even death threats to their children. 12:11 Oh, my God. 12:12 Now, this is-- this is really hate speech. 12:16 When we're quoting the word of God 12:17 it's not hate speech, God is love. 12:20 But, but it's a sad state of affairs to realize that today, 12:25 just quoting the word of God 12:27 can bring down accusations of hate speech. 12:31 Where as this can go on and nothing is said about it. 12:35 Where, it is a war. Yeah. 12:36 We, we've battle with this ourselves all those years 12:41 struggling against what was going on inside, 12:43 finally giving up in defeat in that war. 12:48 So we have the internal battle going on 12:50 but we also have this battle going on through out society. 12:54 Yeah. 12:55 Wow, what a contact now-- but what you just read about, 12:58 that wasn't in America, right? 13:00 Uh, no, it was in Oregon. 13:02 Oh, in Oregon. Yes. 13:04 Oh, my, yes. 13:05 Yes, we have a whole string of examples 13:08 but we don't have time to go through all that. 13:09 Well, let's take a look at some more Bible verses, 13:11 let's go to Ephesians, Ephesians 6:1-4, 13:16 these verses have really spoken to my heart 13:19 concerning this issue, Mike, you or Pastor-- 13:22 Sure. Mike. 13:23 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, 13:25 for this is right. 13:27 Honor your father and mother 13:29 which is the first commandment with promise, 13:31 that it may be well with you 13:33 and that you may live long on the earth. 13:36 And you, fathers, provoke not your children to wrath 13:38 but bring them up in the nurture 13:40 and an admonition of the Lord." 13:43 Well, these are powerful verses, 13:44 they've really spoke to my heart. 13:45 And you know if you look closely, 13:47 they deal with children, they deal with parents, 13:49 they deal with the law of God honoring your father, 13:53 your mother and they deal with the-- 13:55 verse 4 talks about fathers raising children 13:59 in the nurture, which is the love-- 14:01 And the admonition, which is the discipline 14:04 of the Lord and to teach children 14:08 to honor their parents because this is right. 14:11 And really the stand that we are taking, 14:14 based on the Bible is on what's right, 14:17 and I know people question that 14:18 and they say no, it's-- you're not right. 14:21 But we believe it is right because the Bible says, 14:23 children are to obey parents, there's a father and the mother 14:27 and home and the family 14:29 and raising kids in the family with parents, 14:33 acting the way they should toward their children, 14:36 this is what's right and, and are we not in a war 14:39 between what is right and what is wrong. 14:41 Between righteousness and sin 14:43 and ultimately it's between God and who else? 14:47 And satan. 14:48 That's right, God and His former chief officer, 14:51 Satan himself. 14:55 Yes, very much so, I-- 14:58 you know in these last days we're told, 15:03 again looking at Luke 17 that "as it was in the days of Lot, 15:08 that shall it be in the day 15:09 when the Son of man is revealed." 15:11 And you know, we look in history 15:13 and we see that an open acceptance 15:17 and toleration and even celebration of homosexuality 15:21 signaled the end of the culture of Greece. 15:24 It did the same with the culture of Rome 15:27 and what, what I am observing today, 15:30 what I believe is that as this is been legislated, 15:34 the redefinition of marriage 15:36 being legislated around the world, 15:38 to me it is a signal of the demise of global society 15:43 just before the coming of Jesus. 15:45 And there certainly was a militant form 15:50 of same sex attraction within Sodom, 15:53 apart from-- apart from the issue itself. 15:55 They certainly was, I mean they-- 15:57 they surrounded Lot's house, 16:00 they wanted those two strangers that had come in, 16:03 they were under Lot's roof, 16:04 they were trying to bang down the door 16:07 when Lot came out, they pushed him in 16:10 and again try to get in and get these men 16:13 and it was a very, very bad scene 16:18 and I think there's a verse in Jude, isn't there, 16:20 that really shows what happened as a result of this. 16:26 Well, that certainly show's us 16:27 how God feels about this issue. 16:29 And so much today that we hear and see and read 16:33 leaves God's feelings and emotions 16:35 totally out of the picture. 16:36 And as Christians we should consider His thoughts 16:40 feelings emotions and words first, 16:43 and this text clearly reveals how God feels about this issue. 16:46 And what verse is that? 16:47 Verse 7, Jude, verse 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, 16:52 and the cities about them in like manner, 16:54 giving themselves over to fornication, 16:56 and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example." 17:02 In other words, we can look at them and see 17:05 how God feels and how he will deal with this eventually. 17:09 "Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." 17:13 And my Bible says, "Going after strange flesh," 17:17 next to the word strange there's a two 17:20 taking it to the marginal reference 17:22 which is other, other flesh. 17:23 Right. 17:24 Which, doesn't that parallel Romans 1, 17:26 where it talks about, man burning in their lusts 17:31 for one another and women going against nature 17:35 and burning in their lusts for each other. 17:38 This is not, you know, God's plan. 17:41 As we've studied in Genesis 17:44 is for a man to be with the woman 17:47 and a woman to be with a man in marriage 17:49 and then you raise, you have children in this environment, 17:53 that's God's plan. 17:54 You know, you know, in a mixed up world, 17:57 we often get off track and God accepts us 18:00 and works with us, where we are. 18:01 Amen. But that's still God's plan. 18:03 Right. 18:04 And so, you know, I don't know how, 18:06 when you look at what happened in Sodom, Genesis 19, 18:08 and you look at this verse, 18:09 that they not only gave themselves over to fornication 18:11 but they also went after strange flesh. 18:14 It show's that was part of the problem in Sodom 18:17 and the consequence was what? 18:19 What was the consequence? 18:21 Well, God revealed how he felt 18:23 and he dealt with it with judgments. 18:25 They ended up suffering the vengeance of eternal fire, 18:31 destruction. 18:32 That's right and like He mentioned 18:34 in Luke 17: 28-30, 18:39 "Jesus said, 'as it was in the days of Lot.' 18:45 " That's the way it will be, right before he comes. 18:49 So are we witnessing another sign of the times? 18:53 Right. Among many signs. 18:55 Right, you know, another sign would be 18:57 this quote from 18:58 Michelangelo Signorile, it says, 19:00 "a middle ground might be to fight for same-sex marriage 19:03 and its benefits and then, once granted, 19:06 redefine the institution of marriage completely, 19:08 to demand the right to marry 19:10 not as a way of adhering to society's moral codes 19:13 but rather to debunk a myth 19:15 and radically alter an archaic institution. 19:17 It is also a chance to wholly transform 19:20 the definition of family in American culture." 19:23 And again, we see that these things that are coming 19:26 are the fulfillment of what we're reading 19:28 in Jude and in Luke. 19:29 And who was that again that said that? 19:31 Michelangelo Signorile. And who is he? 19:34 Gay activist, editor-at-large for the Gay Voices 19:36 Vertical of the Huffington Post. 19:39 And so-- I mean that man 19:42 and the segment that he represents 19:44 they are definitely at war with marriage. 19:46 What does he say again? 19:47 He wants to eliminate marriage-- 19:49 To wholly transform the definition of family, 19:52 but yes, to rather debunk a myth 19:54 and radically alter an archaic institution. 19:56 So marriage is considered a myth, 19:58 it's considered an archaic institution 20:00 that needs to be abolished. 20:02 And there is group out there and that's what they're, 20:04 that's what they are seeking. 20:05 That is affirmation of what Masha Gessen was saying also, 20:10 it's another voice saying the same thing. 20:12 Saying the same thing. 20:13 And know with marriage being created in the Garden of Eden, 20:16 one of the two institutions of the Garden of Eden 20:19 is obvious that from the beginning 20:20 Satan has hated that marriage 20:23 because if can disrupt that union and corrupt it 20:27 then what he does, he defaces the very image of God 20:32 to the children that are born into this world. 20:35 They don't see Him as clearly as they would see 20:39 in a God ordained marriage with father and mother. 20:42 To get confused. Yes. 20:44 And the Bible says in Corinthians 20:46 that God is not the author of confusion, 20:49 He's not the source of this, He's plans is a plan of peace. 20:52 Well, let's go to one other passage 20:54 which to me as where we're leading 20:56 with all of this is Revelation 12:17. 21:01 This is the last book of the Bible, 21:03 it's an apocalyptic book, 21:05 it deals with the apocalyptic issues 21:07 and we believe that there is an apocalyptic dimension 21:10 to this struggle that we're talking about 21:14 and where dealing with and addressing. 21:17 Who would like to read chapter, Revelation 12:17? 21:23 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, 21:25 and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, 21:28 which keep the commandments of God, 21:30 and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." 21:33 Right, powerful text, 21:34 that text has just burned into my soul. 21:36 It's a verse in the last book of the Bible 21:38 that describes a war, 21:40 and again, this fits our title, "War". 21:42 The war against our souls and it says that the dragon, 21:45 who represents the devil, Satan, Lucifer gone bad, 21:49 that he is angry with the woman, 21:52 he hates the woman, 21:54 which represents God's people and he went to make war 21:56 with the remnant, God's gonna have a final group, 21:59 the remnant of her seed and their characteristics are, 22:03 they keep the commandments of God 22:05 and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 22:08 I have here solid tables of stone, 22:13 sometimes I-- I carry in my seminars 22:16 when I go around the country and hold meetings. 22:19 And this is table number two of the big 10, 22:24 which God wrote with his own finger on stone. 22:26 And if you look at these commandment number five says, 22:30 honor your father and your mother. 22:33 That shows God's plan for the home, 22:36 is it there be a father, there be a mother 22:38 and that children are commanded 22:40 to honor their fathers and their mothers 22:42 because this is what's best. 22:43 This is what makes for, for respect and love 22:47 and good home, where kids can grow up in that kind of home. 22:51 So there's commandment number five, 22:53 number six which we haven't really talked about 22:56 but we all have convictions about this. 22:59 Number six says, "Do not kill or do not murder", 23:02 and I mean the devil today is attacking number five. 23:06 The dragon, the devil, working through society 23:09 is attacking marriage, 23:10 he's attacking the commandment about killing and-- 23:15 you know we're not gonna spend much time on this 23:16 but we all agree that killing babies 23:20 before they're born is just a nightmare. 23:24 And satan-- the Bible says, satan is attacking God's law, 23:28 he's attacking number five, he's attacking number six, 23:30 number seven, "you shall not commit adultery", 23:32 deals with marriage and with the sexual purity 23:36 in the marriage relationship. 23:38 And Satan is attacking that one and then I-- 23:40 you know I can't help this morning, as I woke up, 23:42 I got on my knees and I started praying. 23:43 And I-- my mind went to commandment number nine, 23:47 which says, "you shall not bear false witness 23:49 against your neighbor." 23:51 And the Bible says in Romans 13:10, that, 23:55 "love is the fulfilling of the law", 23:57 that God's law really is the law of love. 23:59 It's for our best, not interest, 24:02 it's for the good of society, for the good homes, 24:04 children, marriages. 24:05 And it's a fact that those who take a stand 24:12 for moral principles based on the law of God, 24:16 that they are often attacked. 24:19 Now I know that people can take these stands in a bad way 24:25 but even those who take a stand in the right way, 24:27 in a loving way, standing up for the law of God 24:29 and for moral principles, many times people will just 24:33 automatically accused us of hate speech. 24:36 Because we're focusing on these principles 24:40 and in my mind when I look at that ninth commandment, 24:43 "don't bare false witness", I mean you've got number five, 24:46 the home, you got number six, don't murder. 24:48 You got number seven, sexual purity in marriage. 24:51 And you got number nine don't bare false witness. 24:54 And it seems to me that it was a lot of people 24:56 that are gonna bear false witness against us 24:58 because we are standing up for the law of God. 25:01 But God is behind His law, He wrote these commandments, 25:06 with his own finger on stone and it is time for God's people 25:13 to take a stand, for men of God to stand up, 25:17 for women of God to stand up for his principles, 25:20 which are really loving principles 25:23 for the best interest of all. 25:26 Now I think it is true, Steve, a sign of the times, 25:30 that in quoting the word of God, 25:32 you are accused of hate speech and I know Mike has that, 25:35 that quote I was referring to earlier 25:37 and he has it right here. 25:38 Want me to read it? 25:39 About-- yes, just quoting the word of God, 25:41 you are accused of violent and hateful speech. 25:44 According to Phil Robertson, he says, 25:46 "Our culture has accepted two huge lies. 25:49 The first is that if you disagree 25:51 with somebody's lifestyle that you must fear or hate them. 25:54 The second lie is that to love someone means that 25:57 you must agree with everything that they believe or do. 26:00 Both are nonsense", he says. 26:02 "You don't have to compromise convictions 26:04 to be compassionate." 26:06 Powerful quote. 26:07 Yeah, well, and we don't-- we got to hold our convictions, 26:11 we've got to be compassionate 26:13 but we have to stand for principle. 26:15 We have to stand up for what's right. 26:16 What's that stake is the home, marriage, 26:19 children and ultimately the word of God, 26:21 the law of God and God's truth, 26:23 and you know something that has impressed me so deeply 26:26 is that the finger that wrote the law, 26:30 was on a hand, the new testament says, 26:32 that was nailed to across. 26:35 Nailed to cross for our sins, Jesus Christ died on the cross 26:40 because we've broken the law. 26:41 He died to save us, to cleanse us and to purify us. 26:45 Amen. 26:46 And to prepare us for a happy heaven. 26:49 During the civil war Abraham Lincoln, 26:51 was once asked, he said, he was asked, 26:54 "Brother Lincoln, in this fight against slavery, 26:57 do you think that God is on our side?" 27:00 and his response was, 'I'm not so concerned 27:02 whether God is on our side or not. 27:04 But the big question is, are we on his side?" 27:08 Amen. 27:09 We are in a war and may God help you, 27:11 may He help me to stand up for God 27:14 and be on His side in this battle. 27:18 If you would like to order the 13 part, 27:20 'Coming Out" series for $34.95 plus shipping, 27:23 call 1-800-782-4253. 27:27 Or write to White Horse Media, PO box 1139, 27:29 Newport, Washington, 99156. 27:32 Pastor Ron Woolsey, 27:34 Dwayne Blakely and Mike Carducci 27:35 are each available to conduct a seminar in your area. 27:38 To schedule a speaking engagement, 27:40 contact Coming Out ministries by calling 360-936-8514, 27:45 or visit Comingoutministries.org. |
Revised 2015-03-12