Participants: Pr. John Carter
Series Code: CR
Program Code: CR001219
|
00:08 From Arcadia, California, the Carter report presents
00:11 "The Living Word" around the world. 00:18 Hello, welcome to the Carter Report 00:20 with Pastor John Carter. 00:22 I am Dave Deno. 00:23 Today we're going to ask the question, 00:27 "Are we preaching to the choir?" 00:32 Jesus said, "Go into all the world 00:35 and make disciples of all nations, 00:37 baptizing them in the name of the Father, 00:39 Son and Holy Spirit. 00:41 The Carter Report team has therefore accepted 00:44 the challenge of worldwide evangelism. 00:46 Millions in Russia, Ukraine, the Philippines, 00:50 Africa, India, Australia, the United States 00:54 and the Isles of the Sea have heard the good news of Christ 00:57 as John Carter has proclaimed God's living word. 01:01 You're invited to be a part of the Carter team 01:05 by praying and by giving and when God calls by going. 01:09 Right a note now to Pastor John Carter, 01:12 PO Box 1900, Thousand Oaks, California, 01:16 91358 or to PO Box 861, 01:21 Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia. 01:26 Jesus said, "With God all things are possible." 01:34 John, it is so good to be with you. 01:37 We always have great conversations and today 01:41 we've put a bit of a hot topic, got on the table-- 01:44 Good to have you with us, Dave. 01:46 It is so nice to- Good to have you. 01:48 Are we preaching to the choir? 01:50 What are we talking about today? 01:54 Dave, it seems to me that for many people, 01:59 the church is increasingly irrelevant. 02:05 Now of course, I am telling you what I believe. 02:07 I am not saying that my opinions 02:09 here are infallible representations of truth. 02:15 It's how I see it after 50 years. 02:18 We do know that one of the fastest growing movements 02:21 in the United States of America is spiritual movements 02:24 or anti-spiritual. 02:26 One of the fastest growing movements is atheism. 02:29 Why? Good question. 02:33 I don't know if I am adequate to answer it. 02:35 But let me have it a go. 02:38 The Gospel of John, and if I could get a text 02:42 from here, teaches Dave a universal truth, 02:48 and of course the atheist who may watch this program 02:52 will not find this palatable. 02:54 It says the light shines, this is John 1:5 03:00 "The light shines in the darkness, 03:03 but the darkness has not understood it." 03:08 And it says of John the Baptist, 03:09 he himself was not the light, he only came as a witness 03:14 to the light or he came to be a witness to the light. 03:18 It shows you how dark the darkness must be, 03:22 if you've got to have a witness to say, 03:24 'here is some light.' 03:26 I mean that tells you something, doesn't it. 03:28 I believe that the human mind innately is in darkness. 03:35 And therefore, atheism 03:38 appeals naturally to the human heart. 03:44 I think also to, and this is giving 03:47 in from a different perspective, that many people see the church 03:53 as 'grossly irrelevant' and they see it. 04:00 Now, I don't wish to offend all my supporters, 04:03 but I am telling you, I've mixed 04:05 with so many unbelievers and many people say, 04:08 "Well, Christians are preaching to the choir, 04:13 they are talking to themselves, and they don't even seemed 04:16 to be aware that there is a world out there. 04:20 It's very safe inside these walls. 04:24 Of course, it is. 04:25 It's nice to preach inside of this church, 04:27 you don't have any challenges, do you? 04:30 Or not too many challenges. 04:34 And then too many people, particularly young people, 04:38 and I don't know if most Christians are aware of this. 04:44 They find it distinctly distasteful when so many people 04:48 who profess to be Christians seemed to be, 04:51 they are the main promoters of wars around the world. 04:55 And I am not just talking about, 04:58 you know, in the religious world-- 05:01 much of the fighting is done by religious people. 05:05 But they say, I've had young people 05:07 here in the United States of America 05:09 say, "Why is it?" 05:10 They've said this to me, it's a real tough question. 05:15 And it's come from their heart, they say, 05:16 why is it that the more religious you get, 05:20 even in Christianity, the more prone 05:24 you seemed to be, or more aggressive 05:27 in promoting wars of conquest and why is it that so many 05:32 Christians are so intolerant of other people. 05:38 And of course, in their perception 05:41 this is a breeding ground for unbelief, 05:43 their unbelief and that's how they justify it. 05:46 John, it's not a new thing, down through history 05:49 whenever politics has mixed with religion, 05:55 it has damaged the message of the gospel. 05:58 It has caused people to walk away. 06:01 Yes. This happened as we all know in Russia. 06:08 I've been to Russia now 42 times. 06:11 And so I know a little bit of about the awful effects 06:14 of atheism and communism. 06:16 I remind my young friends who want to become atheist 06:20 or believe they're atheists and they're so critical 06:25 of me because I am a Christian minister. 06:28 They say the Christian church put millions of people to death. 06:32 I said, "Yes, it's true." in the Dark Ages. 06:35 But I remind them, 06:37 this was not the Christianity of Christ. 06:39 This was religion, the Christianity of people, 06:43 it was not the Christianity of the Lord Jesus. 06:47 But in Russia you had a situation 06:49 where you had a totally corrupt church. 06:53 And you had a totally oppressive government. 06:56 And so you had it in the eyes of the vast numbers of people, 07:00 you had church and state joined together. 07:03 And that was very, very bad. 07:06 And the Russian people threw out the baby with the bath water. 07:10 That's what they did. 07:11 And thus you have communism on a nationwide scale 07:15 and eventually the deaths 07:17 of 50 or 60 million innocent people. 07:20 So atheism I tell them, hasn't got a good reputation 07:24 anymore than does religion. 07:27 Because atheism has killed the millions 07:29 the same as the corrupt proponents 07:37 of Christianity have. 07:39 But we must differentiate between 07:41 the religion of the Bible 07:43 and an apostate form of Christianity. 07:47 What I hear you saying is that in one form or another, 07:51 man-made systems, will always lead 07:55 to some type of advantage you've been talking about. 07:59 Yes and history proves it so. 08:02 And thus we have today-- 08:04 I know this is politically incorrect to say, 08:09 but certainly in the United states of America 08:11 and in some other countries too, you have religious people 08:15 who seemed to be so involved in politics 08:20 that they are not involved in preaching Christ. 08:23 They think that America should be made into a Christian nation 08:30 and they will be in charge and they will enforce 08:33 their own religious ideas. 08:36 Now that of course is to take a person back to the Dark Ages 08:40 or it is to give us a Christianized 08:42 form of Islamic law. 08:46 So there's not much difference 08:48 between an enforcement of Islamic law 08:52 and an enforcement of Christianity. 08:56 What is needed is the religion of Christ 08:59 and there's something else too. 09:03 I was over a few days ago on the campus 09:06 of a great American university, 09:09 the University of Michigan, at Ann Arbor. 09:12 It is a magnificent place. 09:14 I would be proud to somehow be associated 09:18 with that great university, it's a credit 09:20 I think to America. 09:22 But many young people see Christians 09:27 as being anti-scientific. 09:32 Now when I give a talk on astronomy, 09:34 I get lots of criticisms, because of my talk on astronomy. 09:37 They say, 'You're talking against the Bible.' 09:40 No, I am not talking against the Bible, 09:43 I am talking about their unscientific ideas. 09:49 A few hundred years ago, 09:52 people were defending from the Bible 09:54 that the earth is flat. 09:56 Dave, you know the federal society 09:59 and there are people who call themselves Christians 10:02 who antagonize thinking people 10:06 because of their absurd remarks 10:10 about some of the discoveries of science. 10:15 Now I believe that nature is in harmony 10:22 with the word of God. 10:24 I do not believe that religion 10:26 is always in harmony with science or vice versa. 10:30 Science is the interpretation of nature 10:34 and religion is the interpretation of the Bible. 10:38 And many young people have been caught 10:41 on the horns of this dilemma, 10:44 they would like to believe in Christ, 10:47 but so many other people who profess to follow Christ, 10:52 seemed to be so ignorant and they're not afraid 10:56 to make the greatest pronouncements on matters 11:00 of which they don't know and so this breeds atheism. 11:05 And I believe that as a Christian minister 11:09 and as a part of the Christian church, 11:11 I should try to make the Gospel of Christ 11:15 acceptable to the inquiring mind. 11:20 John, here in America, we have the great privilege 11:25 of having the gospel readily available. Yes. 11:29 Probably most Americans have heard in form or another, 11:34 the basic message of the gospel. Yes. 11:38 God exists, Christ came. 11:42 Sin abounds. Yes. 11:46 What part in the spread of atheism 11:49 does the issue of guilt play? 11:55 It plays a significant role. 11:58 I think many people want them-I've given you reasons 12:02 why people can have, why they turn away from God, 12:06 and one of those reasons is the poor witness 12:09 of so many Christians. 12:13 But I think many people also-- I don't wish to be critical 12:17 of any person who has turned away from God. 12:21 But I think many people turn away from God, 12:24 because it's a cop-out. 12:28 If you get rid of God, you get rid of responsibility. 12:32 Now when the great Professor Dawkins, 12:36 the hero of all the atheists, makes his pronouncements 12:41 and he makes his pronouncements 12:43 in the lofty tone of a moralist. 12:47 Considered to be one of the-- 12:48 the most brilliant man on earth. 12:51 Yeah, but he'll say this is right, 12:54 and this is wrong. 12:55 He hasn't got the right to say that. 12:57 Because unless there is an objective basis for truth 13:02 that is grounded in the creator, 13:05 there is no good and there is no bad. 13:09 But he becomes a romantic. 13:12 He becomes a super religionist, and many of the atheists, 13:19 they are super religious. 13:22 Now Richard Dawkins 13:23 is one of the most religious people on the planet. 13:26 Now he would be incensed to be told that he's religious, 13:31 but he's got a religion, 13:33 his religion is atheism, against God. 13:39 The amazing thing is, he says he doesn't believe 13:41 in God and he spends most of his life talking about him. 13:47 Let's go back to the church for just a second. Yes. 13:50 This might be one of the harder questions. 13:53 Maybe we'll get you in a little trouble here. 13:55 You travel extensively. 13:57 You see the church, not only around the world, 14:01 but then you come back to the perspective 14:03 of seeing the church in this country. 14:06 What weakness do you see in the church here, 14:10 particularly in America, to reach the world for Christ? 14:17 I think there are some wonderful Christians 14:20 here in the United States of America. 14:23 I thank God for the United States of America. 14:25 It has been the best in for religious liberty 14:29 and while it is popular in many circles 14:33 to criticize the United States of America, 14:36 try going to those countries that don't have 14:39 the American constitution. 14:42 So let's get things in their true perspective. 14:47 I think with the Christian church 14:49 in North America, largely 14:53 as the title of the program is, the church is talking to itself. 14:59 The church is talking-- the church is talking 15:02 may be Hebrew, but the world is talking Greek. 15:08 And so the church is talking a type of religion, 15:12 but as far as the world is concerned 15:14 is completely irrelevant. 15:17 And this is compounded of course by the problem of Christians 15:22 getting up and talking about scientific things 15:25 as authorities, when they know nothing about it. 15:30 Now I have a program that I've put on astronomy. 15:33 Now this is not to be contentious. 15:36 I am not talking about the age of the earth. 15:38 Let it be clearly known that I did not believe in evolution. 15:43 I don't believe in evolution, I don't believe 15:46 that my ancestors came down from the trees. 15:49 I believe we came down from the stars. 15:52 I believe that we are children of God. 15:55 I believe there's tremendous evidence for this. 16:01 But unfortunately it seems to this old evangelist 16:09 that the church is not serious 16:11 about reaching secular people for Christ. 16:16 When they open up, what they call a crusade, 16:18 they often open it up in a church. 16:22 Can you believe it? 16:23 If you're an unbeliever, who wants to go to a church, 16:26 into the camp of the enemy and then they'll open up 16:29 on some religious topic-- that an unbeliever says. 16:36 "Well, they've already excluded me." 16:40 So this what I feel is one of the weaknesses, 16:43 is that the church on the whole and most ministers, 16:46 most of my colleagues, are really 16:49 on the whole preaching to the choir 16:52 and thus in North America and Christians 16:57 are not even aware of these facts. 16:59 But you've got an explosion of atheism and secularism. 17:06 And the church and all of the churches that seems to me, 17:09 Dave, and now this is controversial, I know. 17:11 The problem is though, it's true. 17:15 Most churches are fishing out 17:17 of the same diminishing fishing hole. 17:21 The pond is progressively getting smaller. 17:25 And all the churches got the hooks in that same pond. 17:29 It'd be good if they threw their net out into the sea. 17:34 I think, me thinks. 17:37 I wrote down for myself, 17:39 the church often has a weak utterance. 17:43 One Christian channel is actually more interested 17:47 in public relations than in truth. 17:50 The church often wants to be liked 17:52 and hence it's interestingly not respected. 17:59 Many Christians, and I am included 18:02 myself in this, I am talking as a Christian, 18:05 many Christians in fact fulfill those words, 18:09 what you're saying, they seem to be so apologetic. 18:14 The church has often become a denomination, 18:18 often have become hierarchies and their main role 18:25 in life is their perpetuation. 18:28 Self preservation. Yes. 18:30 Anybody who comes along who challenges the status quo 18:33 is seen as the devil, because hierarchies 18:39 in church structures don't like to be shaken up. 18:42 What those structures want is peace and quiet 18:49 and the continuation of the status quo. 18:52 This is so also in local churches. 18:56 It is so in denominations and the higher you go up 18:59 or lower you go down, whatever your perspective, 19:03 the more entrench those systems become. 19:08 And thus they become more interested 19:11 in quoting the favor of the world 19:14 than in going into a hostile world 19:18 and preaching a Christ who is relevant 19:21 to the needs of men and women. 19:24 Therefore, in the Christian church 19:27 including in North America, in many parts 19:29 of the Christian church, the word evangelism 19:33 has bad connotations. 19:35 And there may be some good reasons 19:37 why the name evangelism does have bad connotations, 19:41 because sometimes the word evangelism 19:44 is synonymous for proselytizing, just getting some person out 19:51 of one religious group and getting him 19:53 into another religious group. 19:55 So sometimes evangelism has a pretty bad name, 19:59 but people are not aware of the fact, 20:02 most people because they're not aware of Bible too much, 20:05 I am talking about Christians, don't realize 20:07 that the word evangelism means to preach the gospel, 20:12 to preach the good news. 20:13 It is not talking about some cult, 20:16 it is talking about preaching the good news of Christ. 20:19 And therefore, I see the church has, 20:23 having become largely a comfortable institution, 20:29 where the clergy seem to be more interested in safety 20:35 and in preserving peace within the borders of the church 20:40 than going into a hostile world and preaching 20:45 the gospel of Christ, like a friend of mine does, 20:49 he's a noted astronomer, who goes onto 20:53 the campuses of America's great universities 20:57 and gives tremendous arguments, 21:00 why he believes in a personal created God 21:04 and he talks to the atheists and the professors 21:09 who turn up and ask him serious questions 21:13 and often say away going saying "You've made me think. 21:18 And my faith somehow in a creator 21:23 is starting to be restored." 21:25 That's evangelism. 21:26 John, you have reached out to, 21:30 you have spoken to-- well, may be cumulatively, 21:34 around 3 million people in your years of ministry. 21:38 No, no, no. That's only in Russia. 21:41 That's only in Russia. 21:42 That doesn't include other places. 21:46 This figure is bandied about, 21:48 but the 3 million people are, who came to our meetings 21:52 and this is not talking about television audiences. 21:55 We're talking about people actually 21:57 in the seats in 'Palace of Sports.' 22:00 We would open it up with on a weekend, 22:04 you know 50,000 people and almost 22:07 that many turned away in Ukraine for instance in Kiev. 22:11 We have 30,000 inside the hall and 100,000 outside. 22:16 Now we don't count the 100,000 outside, 22:18 but we have seen in the former Soviet Union 22:22 millions of atheists, including thousands 22:25 of members of the KGB come to the meetings, 22:28 because we didn't open on a religious subject, 22:33 we open on something like archeology, 22:35 some scientific topic. 22:39 And yet it's not common. 22:42 This is still rare, to see 22:45 this kind of evangelistic outreach around the world, 22:50 only a few are doing it. 22:53 As you said, most put their evangelism services 22:58 into their churches and they'll say, 23:00 "well, come to our church." Yes, I know. 23:02 What can be done about 23:04 the state of ineffective evangelism today? 23:10 I am almost nonplussed to answer the question, 23:14 because I know what I've tried to do. 23:16 And I know the opposition you get. 23:19 And the opposition is usually not outside the church, 23:22 but inside the church. 23:25 What can be done? 23:27 There needs to be a total change 23:30 in the thinking of the circle clergy 23:35 and the leaders of the Christian church, 23:38 a total change in thinking. 23:41 Let me give you a illustration. 23:43 Now the audience that is hearing this is going to be astounded 23:47 by what I am going to say. 23:49 Many, many years ago, I was invited 23:51 to run a campaign of my style in the city of New York. 23:56 So they invited me up to what-- 23:58 some have called it the greatest city in the world 24:01 and so I went up to New York. 24:03 I was met by some folks at the airport 24:05 and taken to the church office 24:07 and there we had a committee meeting 24:09 and they said, how much do you think 24:12 it would cost to evangelize in New York? 24:17 They said pastor so and so wanted $50,000 24:24 and we thought that was too much. 24:27 Now we're going back years. 24:29 I said, "what would you want?" 24:32 Now this was years, and years and years ago, 24:35 I said "well, a million to start with." 24:39 They said, "but he wanted 50." 24:41 Now that the people there, 24:44 they are no longer around of course, 24:47 they were completely out of touch. 24:51 They were so out of touch, 24:53 it has to be utterly irrelevant and a hindrance. 24:57 Now I said to them, 24:58 "would you go down to the television. 25:00 Do you want to advertise on TV." 25:01 Oh, yes. Do you know 25:04 how much it cost to advertise on TV? 25:06 Oh, I guess it would be few hundred dollars. 25:09 No, brother, to advertise on television, 25:12 prime time in New York 25:13 is probably $50,000 for 30 seconds. 25:16 What! But nobody could do this. 25:20 Well, I may, I said to them, 25:22 I can think of an evangelist who does that. 25:26 Oh, but we couldn't do that. 25:27 Well, you need to have some faith. 25:30 And you need to start spending money in a responsible way. 25:36 Now later on I went to Russia, 25:39 where we could blanket a city. 25:41 Dave, this would amaze you, but we could take a city 25:44 of several million and a budget 25:47 of less than a 100,000 for TV would be sufficient. 25:51 Ads were only $500. 25:53 And you can go into places today, 25:55 where you can blanket the city. 25:57 Now people say, it could never, 25:59 never happen, what you did in Russia 26:01 could never happen in America. 26:04 Yes, it could. 26:06 If we took in consideration 26:08 the different standard of living. 26:12 The different costs, but it all depends 26:16 what your priorities are. 26:17 If your priorities are to simply maintain 26:22 a creaking bureaucracy or if your main priority 26:28 is to reach the world for Christ 26:32 and then you've got to find resources 26:34 and put those resources into advertising, 26:38 so at least people will now. 26:40 Now what I've just said there is such a revolutionary concept 26:44 that most church people will at this stage 26:48 they will simply just tune out, 26:50 they'll say "that's impossible." 26:52 Or they might be saying, 26:53 "Oh, John is just talking about money 26:56 and may be John just wants money." 27:00 Well, yes I want a lot of money 27:03 for the preaching of the gospel, 27:06 because very little money today is spent 27:08 for the church in the preaching of the gospel. 27:10 And sometimes television stations 27:12 that are supposed to preach the gospel, 27:14 don't preach the gospel-- public relations companies 27:19 as we've talked about before. 27:22 But it seems to me, and some would agree with me, 27:26 but because people aren't doing this, 27:28 they don't know. 27:29 You see, it's a case of they being educated. 27:33 It seems to me that the church doesn't need to get out 27:36 of the 20th century or the 21st. 27:38 It needs to get out of the 18th or the 19th century. 27:42 What do you mean by that? 27:43 Well, church people today think in terms 27:49 of how much it costs to preach the gospel 27:53 and to go into all the world, 27:54 they think in terms of 1844 or 1888 28:00 or when things costs virtually nothing. 28:05 Now there was a man I am told this is true, 28:08 I hope it's not a apocryphal, but I will tell it anyhow 28:11 because it illustrates the truth. 28:13 There was a man who lived in America, 28:17 his name was White, 28:19 and he was asked to run a campaign. 28:22 He was a pastor. 28:24 And he build a house in a certain American city, 28:28 this is going back into the 19th century. 28:31 The house cost $500. 28:34 But he was to run a little campaign 28:37 in that city where he built that house that cost $500 28:40 and they gave him a budget of $1,500. 28:44 That means, the budget for preaching of the gospel 28:47 was three times the price of the nice house. 28:50 In Los Angeles, in this area-- 28:53 a good house is a million dollars. 28:56 In Arcadia, hard to buy a good house 28:58 in Arcadia for less than a million dollars. 29:01 That would mean, to reach Arcadia in this area 29:04 you would need, in the terms of how they thought 29:07 back there, you would need $3 million. 29:13 Now you've got to translate it, you've got to get out 29:16 of the 18th century and get into the, 29:19 in and out of the 19th century and get into the 21st century. 29:23 Therefore, what I am saying 29:25 is there is a desperate need for relevancy. 29:30 And to stop preaching to the choir and to realize 29:34 that we must take seriously the words of Christ 29:36 to go into all the entire world and preach the gospel. 29:40 And we've tried to do it in a very, very inadequate way, 29:45 but people have believed in what we believe. 29:49 They share my philosophy. 29:52 And they say, yes it is time for the church 29:55 to preach the gospel to the world in a way 30:00 that is going to reach masses of people. 30:03 Someone might say though, wait a minute John, 30:04 now you're getting really personal, 30:06 because you're talking about my money. 30:10 Actually it's not theirs at all, it's God's. 30:13 Everything that God give us belongs to Him. 30:17 Therefore, I believe that God has made us stewards. 30:21 And you know the story of the man who was baptized 30:25 and as he went down, he'd been a very-- 30:29 what should I say, he was a grasping man, 30:32 he loved money. 30:33 And as he went down into the baptismal front, 30:36 the pastor saw he had something in his back pocket, 30:39 he said "Excuse me brother, I think your wallet's 30:42 in your back pocket." 30:44 He said, you better take it out. 30:45 Now he said it's been a curse to me all my life, 30:48 it's going to get baptized too. 30:50 Some people need to get their wallets baptized too. 30:56 Where your treasure is, there also will be your heart. 30:58 That's what the Lord said. Yes. 31:02 It's a good thing for us to stop 31:05 and to think about these issues. 31:07 We are talking about it on a personal basis, 31:10 we are talking about it as the church at large. 31:14 And the question we have before us 31:16 is 'are we preaching to the choir?' 31:19 In a just a moment when we come back, 31:21 we're gonna talk more about evangelism 31:23 and the role of archeology inevangelism 31:29 and effective evangelism. 31:30 I am looking forward to that. 31:31 You're listening to the Carter report. 31:38 Millions around the world have attended 31:40 the Carter report programs and seen 31:41 the wonders of biblical archeology. 31:44 From the treasures of King Tutankhamen 31:46 to the great pyramids of Giza, 31:48 vast audiences have walked with John Carter 31:50 to dusty roads of ancient Egypt. 31:52 The journey has continued as the masses 31:54 have gazed upon the palaces of Petra 31:57 and the stones f the Herod's temple. 31:59 The largest secular crowds attending religious meetings 32:01 anywhere have exclaimed at last. 32:04 He was evidence to believe in God. 32:06 Please support the Carter report in its unique mission. 32:09 Write to John Carter, PO Box 1900, Thousand Oaks, 32:12 California 91358 or PO Box 861, 32:16 Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia. 32:19 Once again that address is, The Carter Report, 32:22 Thousand Oaks, California 91358, 32:27 or PO Box 861, Terrigal, NSW 2260, Australia. 32:39 Welcome back to the Carter Report 32:40 with Pastor John Carter, I am Dave Deno 32:43 and the topic we're talking about 32:44 today is really a question. 32:47 Is the church preaching to the choir? 32:51 And we're talking now about the aspect of evangelism. 32:56 And I want to go back to this issue for just a moment. 32:58 And I want to talk about it from a different perspective. 33:01 We've talked about how evangelism around the world 33:04 has become less and less effective partly 33:07 because so many are simply expecting people 33:11 to come to them to the church rather than the church going out 33:15 to the people, where they live and sharing 33:18 the message, that really matters 33:20 to them in their life. 33:22 Now one thing that you do in your evangelistic meetings, 33:25 when you go out to the people, 33:27 did you talk about biblical archeology, why? 33:31 Let me say you first and foremost, 33:33 Dave, I am a pastor. 33:36 People say, "Well, you know, you are not a pastor. 33:38 You don't understand a pastor's heart. 33:40 You're an evangelist." 33:42 I do evangelism when I can. 33:46 I can't do it more than I am doing it because 33:48 I don't have the money, but I am a pastor. 33:51 I have pastored more churches than most pastors have seen. 33:54 So first and foremost, I understand 33:57 the challenges of being a pastor. 34:00 Now we have gone out into the world because 34:06 we have been motivated by the reading of the scriptures. 34:11 I believe very much in the principle that was laid down 34:14 by the Protestant reformers. 34:16 "Sola Christus, only Christ." 34:19 "Sola Scriptura, only Scriptures." 34:21 "Sola Gratia, only Grace" and "Sola Fide, only Faith." 34:24 So I believe in those things. 34:27 Now we have been motivated to go out 34:31 into the world and God has opened up the doors. 34:35 And God has raised up supporters, 34:37 so we have been able to do this in cooperation with the church. 34:43 And we have used a methodology that involves 34:47 biblical archeology and more recently astronomy. 34:54 Archeology gives people, biblical archeology gives people 34:58 some rational reasons why they can believe. 35:02 And also too, it's immensely popular. 35:05 Witness the history channel, they use archeology. 35:10 Therefore I open up my meetings 35:12 on the wonders of ancient Egypt, 35:15 on the pharaohs and some of the pharaohs 35:18 that are mentioned in the Bible. 35:21 And then we work in the story of Queen Hatshepsut, 35:24 whose body has only recently been discovered 35:28 by Dr. Hawass in the Cairo museum. 35:32 And I tell all of these stories and then I weave 35:36 in the story of the Bible and the story of the Exodus. 35:41 And then I show them pictures from some of the tombs 35:44 where Semites have been whipped by the Egyptian overseas. 35:49 And I tell the Bible story and then 35:53 I move into other aspects of biblical archeology, 35:56 but I try to make it fascinating 35:59 not as interesting as I'd ike it to be. 36:02 But I do my best to make it, and people tell me 36:04 they find it fascinating. 36:07 And the thing is Dave, it has the capacity 36:11 to reach people, who still have got up a mind, 36:16 who still are intellectually inquiring 36:20 and people can then say, "Well, now we have a reason 36:23 to believe in the Bible." 36:26 The leader of the KGB, General Vladimir said to me, 36:29 "don't forget we too have hearts." 36:32 And he said "don't forget us." 36:35 And in Russia, the KGB proclaimed that, 36:39 wait for this, "I was a scientist." 36:41 I said "I am not a scientist." 36:44 But, said the leader of the KGB, 36:46 "But you're using evidence, 36:48 you're not just talking faith. 36:50 You're giving us scientific evidence 36:53 from astronomy and from archeology and so forth, 36:57 so that we can have a reason to believe." 37:01 I believe that an unbeliever needs 37:04 to be given a reason to believe. 37:08 About 20 years ago, there was an explosion 37:12 of interest in the biblical archeology. 37:15 And like many things a great deal of interest 37:19 and then it sort of wanes a bit. Yes. 37:22 Is there as much interest today in biblical archeology? 37:27 By the people on the streets, yes. 37:29 By the lay people, by all types of people 37:33 out there in the world 37:35 have tremendous interest in biblical archeology. 37:37 As I said, the history channel has made its name, 37:40 largely through biblical archeology. 37:43 But today, in the scientific world, 37:47 on the great campuses, biblical archeology 37:51 is becoming a memory. 37:53 Is there any university 37:54 that still gives you a good perspective? 37:57 There is a small university that I have visited this time, 38:00 last week in Michigan, Andrews University. 38:06 Most excellent university. 38:09 And on the campus there is Dr. Randall Younker, 38:13 Professor of Old Testament study, 38:15 but also an outstanding biblical archeologist. 38:19 And he's got there on the campus of the university, 38:23 the Siegfried Horn Institute of Archeology. 38:27 Now Horn was a great scholar and a great German archeologist. 38:32 And somewhat a disciple 38:34 of the great professor Albright, perhaps 38:37 the greatest archeologist of all times. 38:41 And so he's got an institute of archeology there. 38:45 And the purpose of his ministry because it isn't a ministry, 38:49 is to build faith in the scriptures. 38:53 I've been just associated with him on some trips overseas, 38:57 I appreciated him immensely. 38:59 But I believe, that archeology 39:01 rightly used can be a way into an unbelieving heart. 39:07 We've talked about the church 39:09 getting outside these four walls, 39:11 that we call it church building. 39:13 And important for us to get out into the world, 39:16 to speak to the world, to talk to the world, 39:19 to those in the world about the things 39:20 that are of interest to them. 39:22 And you've talked about 39:24 a biblical archeologist Randall Younker. 39:27 He has a connection with National Geographic, doesn't he? 39:30 National Geographic put out a book on the Bible. 39:36 I wish I had it here to show you. 39:37 But they've put out an outstanding book on the Bible 39:42 and when they needed somebody as an expert 39:44 on the Bible and archeology, who understood 39:47 the language of the Bible and its culture, 39:51 they asked him to be their consultant. 39:54 They had two consultants. 39:56 This obviously was a tremendous vote of confidence in Randy. 40:01 But more than this, it showed 40:04 the tremendous interest of people outside the church. 40:11 In the science of archaeology, in the scriptures. 40:14 And this is where the church 40:16 sometimes can be so far our of touch they say, 40:18 "nobody is interested in this." 40:20 Well, the point is they are not interested in this. 40:23 Because what they are doing is mixing with the choir, 40:27 but people in the world are looking for reasons 40:31 whereby they can intelligently believe in God. 40:35 Because in the human heart 40:37 there is hunger for the supernatural. 40:41 We talked a while ago about the church, 40:45 about individuals and about the subject of money. 40:50 Does the church use money effectively today? 40:56 Well, I'm only one tiny portion of the church. 41:00 So I can't dogmatize and pontificate 41:04 on this subject of course. 41:07 It seems to me and this is my opinion. 41:11 After 50 years of being a pastor. 41:15 I think too often, Dave, the church is more interested 41:20 in the perpetuation of the system, 41:24 than in going into the cold hard world 41:27 to preach the gospel. 41:28 It is far easier to sit in an office 41:35 and organize church members and do a token amount 41:42 of evangelism than to throw the net 41:45 into the sea as Jesus had, He said, 41:47 "throw the net on the other side.'' 41:50 Too often the church seems to keep the net in the boat, 41:55 because it's cheaper to keep it in the boat. 41:59 Now you asked me about archeology, 42:04 but can I say this too. 42:06 Not only archeology is a way into the mind of the unbeliever, 42:11 as I've seen around the world, but so now is astronomy. 42:16 Really? Oh, big time. 42:19 What makes it so? 42:20 What do you bring? 42:23 Let's bring it down to what you bring because 42:25 that's your experience. 42:26 What do you bring when you talk with a group 42:29 and you talk about astronomy? 42:30 What do you tell them about? 42:33 Astronomy has become a big thing in my life now. 42:36 Well, it's got to be a big thing, 42:38 because astronomy is big. 42:40 It talks about a vast, 42:43 incomprehensibly vast universe. 42:49 cSome Christians, because of their zeal for God, 42:54 but because of the ignorance of science, 42:57 and I say that with courtesy. 43:00 Don't win friends and influence people by their reactions 43:05 to some of the discoveries of the astronomers. 43:08 Astronomers say, almost every astronomer 43:11 in the world says, 43:12 there is clear scientific evidence 43:14 that the universe is expanding. 43:16 And I can trace it back to the beginning. 43:19 Astronomers believe now, that there was a time 43:22 when there was nothing 43:24 and from nothing came everything. 43:26 This is relatively recent. 43:28 Even Einstein didn't believe this, 43:30 until he was shown the proof of it by Dr. Hubble. 43:34 After which the telescope was invented. 43:36 But the Bible says in the beginning God created 43:38 the heavens and the earth. 43:40 There has never been so much evidence for creation 43:46 out of nothing than there is today. 43:49 Some Christians say, "well it's a dangerous signs." 43:52 No, if you understand it. 43:55 Now scientists talk about the Big Bang. 43:58 I've had Christians comes to me and they say, 44:00 "oh that's talking about evolution." 44:02 Oh, please, no, the Big Bang is simply a scientific term 44:06 for the beginning of the universe. 44:09 But they say, scientists say, 44:11 "it happened billions of years ago, 44:12 therefore they are teaching evolution." 44:14 No, that's not teaching evolution, 44:17 because there is one great scientist said to me, 44:20 "for evolution to work, 44:22 you can't have billons of years, you got to have trillions." 44:27 For things to start from nothing 44:29 and to become complex and living, 44:32 you got to have almost infinite periods of time 44:36 and then it wouldn't work. 44:39 Dave, a scientist said to me not long ago 44:45 and he blew my mind. 44:47 He held up a dime, which is like 44:49 5 cent piece in Australia. 44:51 And said, "If the universe 44:54 were heavier or lighter than the weight of this dime, 45:00 we would not be here, 45:01 everything would explode or implode." 45:05 I said, I don't believe that." 45:08 He said, well, 45:10 every scientist and astronomer believes it. 45:13 I said, "Are you putting me?" 45:15 "No," he said. 45:17 It is such a fine balance. 45:19 He said, "this is one reason 45:21 why I believe in a divine designer." 45:23 I said, "I never knew that." 45:24 He said, "yes, most ministers don't." 45:28 Then he said, within a milli, milli, 45:30 millisecond of the point of creation 45:32 that we called the Big Bang." 45:34 And he said, "I know the word Big Bang scares people." 45:37 Because they don't understand, 45:39 they don't understand it's proving God. 45:43 And he said, "this is one of the reasons 45:45 why so few intellectual people 45:47 really are turned down by Christians." 45:50 But within a millisecond of the point of creation, 45:54 four forces came into being in the universe. 45:59 Strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, 46:03 and so forth gravity four of them. 46:06 If they had been out of sync, out of balance, 46:11 by one quadrillionth of one quadrillionth 46:13 of one quadrillionth of one quadrillionth 46:16 of one quadrillionth of 1% we wouldn't be here today. 46:21 He said, "this is a evidence 46:23 why I believe in a creator, in the great designer." 46:29 Now when I've talked to vast crowds about this. 46:34 I had some of them come to me and they've said, 46:36 for the first time we've heard something 46:37 that make sense. 46:39 We are starting to think that we are not here 46:42 as of by blind chance. 46:46 We are not the product of time plus, 46:47 matter plus chance. 46:50 But there is a creator God, therefore I believe that God 46:54 is giving to the church today the tools to reach 46:59 the world for Christ. 47:01 The question is, are any 47:04 of the choir members listening. 47:07 The tools to reach the world for Christ. 47:11 And that's what you've been talking about. 47:12 We've been talking about some of the tools 47:14 that you used to reach out to the world. 47:17 There is a great saying by the old evangelist. 47:21 Some people want to live in the sound of chapel bells. 47:24 But I want to build a mission just a yard 47:27 from the gates of hell. 47:29 That's pretty good. 47:31 That's what you do. 47:32 In your own way, you do that. 47:34 In an adequate way we try to do it. 47:37 But, Dave, it is true, 47:39 I've been told this over and over again 47:41 by people who ought to know. 47:45 That in our meetings we've had the largest attendance 47:49 of secular people in religious meetings 47:53 anywhere in the world. 47:54 Some have said, "in history." 47:59 Now, people say, no, no-- we are not talking about 48:03 the choir, we are talking about 48:05 the people who don't like the choir. 48:07 Secular people, attending religious meetings, 48:10 the largest numbers anywhere on the planet. 48:14 You've had secular people come to your meetings. 48:17 In our meetings usually 48:18 90% of our people are secular people. 48:20 Well, some of them have even come to disrupt the meetings. 48:24 Oh, we've that happened on occasions, yes. 48:27 And some of them have turned-- 48:28 But generally speaking the people 48:30 who came to disrupt the meetings were not secular, 48:32 they were religious people. 48:35 I know you had the KGB 48:37 come to one of your meetings once. 48:38 Oh, the KGB came to our meetings 48:40 and because the crowds were so great. 48:42 They acted as our deacons and our ushers. 48:45 They didn't come to disrupt, they came to help us. 48:48 They are religious people from one great religious organization 48:51 came and had fire bombs thrown on the stage as I was preaching. 48:58 Generally speaking secular people 49:00 have treated me far better than religious people. 49:04 I want to give you a moment here. 49:06 We only have a few more minutes in our conversation. 49:09 And I want to give you a moment now to take 49:12 what we've been talking about and to talk 49:14 in a very personal way to maybe a young man or a young woman 49:20 who want to be a minister of the gospel. 49:24 What would your advice be? 49:27 My advice to such a person, Dave, would be this. 49:33 Believe in scripture, 49:35 believe in the power of scripture, 49:37 don't be a traditionalist. 49:41 In Australia they say, there are three sexes, 49:43 I dare to utter them on this television program, 49:46 men, women and clergymen. 49:49 Don't be a clergymen, that means 49:52 be a real person and follow scripture, 49:58 break out of the mold, don't just be religious, 50:04 but be first and foremost a follower of Christ. 50:08 And listen to the words of Paul. 50:11 "And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, 50:17 second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, 50:22 also those having gifts of healing, 50:25 those able to help others, 50:27 those with the gifts of administration." 50:30 This is 1 Corinthians 12. 50:32 The Bible says, Paul says, 50:35 seek the chief gifts and the first gift 50:39 there is the gift of being an apostle. 50:44 Apostolos, a person who was sent into the world. 50:49 One translation says, a missionary, 50:51 a person with a mission. 50:54 A prophet, a person who expounds the divine word 50:59 with the authority of the Spirit of God. 51:01 Don't be a person who just wants to preach to the choir. 51:07 But seek the greatest gift of all and that is to go 51:12 with a mission into the world to proclaim Christ. 51:16 Is it difficult? Yes. Is it dangerous? Some times. 51:20 Is it expensive? Yes, indeed it is. 51:23 But it is the will of God. 51:25 I appeal to young pastors to breakout 51:28 of the ecclesiastical mold of being a clergymen 51:33 and to become soldiers of Christ. 51:35 Soldiers of Christ, arise, and put your armor on, 51:39 said the Wesley. 51:41 People want the truth, don't they? 51:45 Dave, some people want the truth. 51:47 The truth is never easy to handle. 51:49 Some people do not want the truth. 51:52 But those who followed Christ want the truth. 51:54 Jesus said, "you will know the truth 51:57 and the truth will make you free." 52:00 You talked about churches, 52:02 and you talked about some of the churches 52:04 you saw on university campus, that were barely attended. 52:11 A campus of 50,000 students 52:14 and you've got a couple of churches 52:17 that between them may be you have 52:18 a 100 to 200 people attending on any given Sunday. 52:22 On a good Sunday. 52:25 And yet there are churches that are filled to overflowing. 52:31 And so many of those have discovered that the people come, 52:35 because they want hear the truth of the gospel. 52:38 They want as you have indicated earlier, 52:41 they want scripture preached. Yes. 52:44 They don't want you to tell them 52:47 psychologically how to live their lives. 52:50 People are sick of that. 52:51 They want to hear God's word and they are astounded 52:55 at the relevance of God's word to their life. 52:59 Yes. And so they respond. 53:03 A church will only fulfill its mission, 53:06 if it is true to scripture. 53:09 And if a preacher is true to the blood of Christ 53:12 and preacher is the blood of Christ and the gospel. 53:16 A cult, Dave, always talks about itself. 53:21 A cult talks about itself and its programs. 53:25 The true church talks about Christ. 53:30 And nobody appeals to the human heart like Christ. 53:33 Christ appeals to my heart, because He fulfils 53:37 the need of my heart. 53:41 And so there are churches and there are pastors 53:44 and there are ministers who understand the gospel. 53:47 And they preach the gospel of Christ 53:49 and they preach the word of God, 53:51 because the power is in the word. 53:54 It is written. 53:56 "Man shall not live by bread alone, 53:59 but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." 54:04 Lest people misunderstand, 54:06 what we are saying about the church. 54:08 Because we have been talking about 54:10 how important it is for the church 54:11 to get outside of its walls. 54:13 Of course. And to bring the gospel 54:15 to an unbelieving world. 54:17 We believe in the church. 54:19 And the church needs to bring this message 54:22 in a way that's interesting to the world. 54:25 Yes. And yet the church itself 54:27 internally has a role as well, does it not? 54:31 To its own members. 54:32 Oh, yes, indeed. 54:34 The church is to revived encouragement, 54:39 and hope, and nurture, 54:41 and sustenance to the church members. 54:45 It must also be remembered that no church would die faster 54:48 than the church that becomes self-centered 54:53 and only thinks of itself. 54:56 And no pastor will have a less fulfilling role 54:58 in saving the church than a pastor 55:02 who concerns himself only with the welfare of the church. 55:07 Those strong theology said many years ago, 55:10 those grow most who loose themselves 55:14 and they work for others. 55:18 And when a church is introverted, 55:20 it becomes a cranky church, a dying church. 55:26 But a church that reaches out to the world 55:29 with the unsearchable riches of Christ 55:32 and is aggressively evangelistic in proclaiming Christ, 55:36 the way the truth in the life, 55:38 that church will be a blessing to the church members 55:41 and a blessing to the world. 55:44 We are almost done with our conversation. 55:46 There is a saying, that the role of the church is to comfort 55:49 the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. 55:54 Do you see that as a pastor of your church? 56:00 I'm no longer the pastor of this church. 56:02 We have a very fine young pastor, James Venegas. 56:05 And he is an outstanding pastor, he is a man of God. 56:11 But my role now, Dave, by the grace of God 56:13 is to do with that which God has told me to do. 56:17 As God gives me grace and as God gives me strength. 56:21 And that is to take the gospel to a world 56:25 that is going down to hell. 56:29 That is facing the judgment and that needs 56:32 more than anything else, the relevant preaching 56:36 of the gospel of Christ, which is the power 56:40 of God unto salvation. 56:42 And by the grace of God, 56:44 I so dedicate myself today to this work. 56:47 John, thank you so much. 56:49 You've been listening to the Carter Report, 56:52 with Pastor John Carter, I'm Dave Deno. |
Revised 2014-12-17