Participants: Pr. John Carter (Host), Fazale Rana, Hugh Ross
Series Code: CR
Program Code: CR001314
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00:08 From Arcadia, California, the Carter Report presents
00:11 "The Living Word" around the world. 00:18 Hello friend, I am John Carter. 00:20 We're talking today with two distinguish scientists 00:24 and we're talking about the Theory of Evolution. 00:28 Is it true or is it false the theory of evolution. 00:35 My two guests are from great organization called 00:38 Reasons to Believe. 00:41 Dr. Hugh Ross, a noted astronomer 00:45 and Dr. Fazale Rana, a noted biologist. 00:49 The theory of evolution, welcome to the program. 00:56 The Carter Report is a self supporting ministry 01:00 with the global mission. 01:01 We believe that the most important thing 01:03 that we can do in this tremendous hour 01:06 is to tell people about the Lord Jesus Christ 01:09 because Jesus said, 01:11 "I am the way, the truth and the life." 01:14 We do not believe that this is business as usual. 01:18 We believe that we are living in the closing hours, 01:23 Bless your heart friend. 01:24 Look at the signs that are being fulfilled almost every day. 01:28 The signs of the times are shouting at us, 01:31 and they're saying, "Jesus is coming soon." 01:35 I want you to be my partner in global mission. 01:38 I want you to be my partner in helping 01:41 to tell the world about the coming of Jesus. 01:44 I want you to be my partner in the preaching 01:47 of the distinctive truths of the Three Angels' Messages. 01:52 Please check us out 01:54 at the New Carter Report website, cartereport.org. 01:59 We have a special section whereby 02:01 you can ask questions and I will give you the answers 02:05 from the living word of the living God. 02:09 That is the cartereport.org. 02:14 My friend, we want you to join us 02:16 in the mission to preach the gospel 02:19 in China, in India, 02:22 in Australia, in Africa, 02:24 in the United States of America. 02:27 Wherever people are lost 02:29 and wherever people need to hear the good news 02:32 that Jesus saves. 02:35 Please check us out, 02:36 the new Carter Report website cartereport.org. 02:41 I want to hear from you today. 02:58 Welcome to the program. 02:59 We're talking today about the theory of evolution. 03:03 Dr. Ross, very warm welcome to you. 03:06 Thank you. 03:07 Dr. Rana, we are delighted to have you both with us today. 03:12 Is science incompatible with Christian faith and belief? 03:19 Many people like Richard Dawkins tell me it is so. 03:24 Well, he is right that science can test our belief systems 03:28 and that we are in an agreement with him on that 03:30 but we disagree because we believe 03:32 that science actually establish as a Christian faith. 03:35 And the Bible commands us to use the record of nature 03:38 to establish the existence of God and His attributes. 03:42 So God doesn't tell us to check our brains 03:44 in at the door when we come to church? 03:46 We're commanded to read both books, 03:48 the book of scripture and the book of nature. 03:50 And you think they're both in harmony? 03:52 Yes, very much so. 03:53 From your own personal perspective 03:55 why do you believe this, you are a scientist 03:57 and yet you are professing born-again believer? 03:59 Everywhere I look in the creation, 04:03 I just see overwhelming evidence for design 04:06 whether it's at an astronomical level 04:08 looking at the cosmos or at the microscopic level 04:11 looking at how bio-chemical systems are put together. 04:14 I just see overwhelming evidence for design 04:17 for God's fingerprints. 04:20 You have an organization, you are the president 04:22 and you are the vice-president of Reasons to Believe. 04:26 You are in beautiful California 04:29 with all the smog and everything. 04:32 You obviously believe that a person 04:35 can be an intellectual and have an intelligent 04:40 faith in God, obviously. 04:44 Dr. Dawkins is a probably a genius, 04:49 he's from Oxford University. 04:51 He would disagree with us entirely, 04:53 Dr. Richard Dawkins. 04:54 He believes that God is a myth 04:58 and of course he's a great proponent of the idea that-- 05:02 and he wouldn't put it in this terms 05:04 but I am doing so, 05:06 sort of cutting to the bottom-line. 05:08 He's a great proponent of the idea 05:11 that if you leave gas alone by itself long enough, 05:14 starting with hydrogen it will become 05:16 people singing and dancing. 05:19 Now one of the arguments he uses that I think is very 05:23 anti-intellectual argument from this very intellectual man 05:30 is that believers and Christians 05:32 have done some bad things. 05:35 This is one of His big premises. 05:37 Christians have done some really bad things, 05:40 wicked things therefore 05:42 the Bible and religion it's all wrong. 05:45 Has he got a point? Have Christians done-- 05:47 Have religious people done bad things? 05:50 Well, certainly they have but what I think 05:52 where Dawkins is going wrong is God tells us 05:55 in the scriptures that we people are failures 05:59 and we should expect based on the Bible 06:01 that people will do "bad thing." 06:04 Yes, yes. 06:05 But God has also told us there's a way out 06:07 and that's the value of Christianity. 06:09 You know, my concern about Richard Dawkins 06:11 is his arguments against the Christian faith 06:14 are straw man arguments. 06:16 They are indeed. Yeah. 06:17 Yes, and his arguments 06:19 against the Christian faith, is this not true 06:22 can be used against atheists? 06:26 Well, I mean for example, going back to this point 06:29 that human beings have done some bad things 06:32 but human beings also have this capacity for altruism. 06:35 And what unique among all creatures 06:38 and that we have this ability to not-- 06:42 I scratch your back you scratch my back 06:44 type of altruism but altruism 06:46 where it's complete generosity where I have nothing to benefit 06:50 from doing good things for you. 06:52 And again, scripture teaches us 06:54 that we are made in God's image and that big bearing God's image 06:58 we have this capacity to do good things 07:01 is that image of God has been marred because of sin, 07:04 so we do bad things as well. 07:06 Professor Dawkins wrote a book you know, 07:08 on The Selfish Gene but another Oxford professor 07:12 wrote a book called The Selfless Gene 07:16 and the argument of that Oxford professor 07:20 against Richard Dawkins is that there is in man 07:25 a gift from God that does good things 07:27 for the sake of doing good, 07:29 not simply as a benefit to that person. 07:35 All right then, when I think about Dr. Dawkins 07:39 and I've listened to him and I've read some of his books. 07:43 What I think he fails to comprehend 07:46 is the truth that you've taught-- 07:47 the Bible teaches that we are sinners 07:50 and need a redemption but if you want to see 07:53 some really bad things you only need to go to Russia. 07:58 I've been there 42 times and think that during the time 08:01 when the communists and the atheists were in charge, 08:05 you had about between 15-17 million 08:09 people put to death, murdered. 08:15 So here's an argument if we're going to use arguments 08:17 against Christians because I've done some bad things 08:19 like the Spanish inquisition, 08:21 here's an argument against atheism, is it not? 08:23 Yes, but evolution in the sense 08:25 is used by many people to justify their atheism. 08:29 Tell me more why you would say this? 08:31 Well, the idea is that if everything 08:33 can just evolve on its own, then we don't need God to-- 08:37 You got to be super foolish. Right. 08:38 In fact even Dawkins said 08:40 evolution has allowed me 08:42 to become an intellectually satisfied atheist. 08:46 So the theory of evolution is used to fuel atheism. 08:51 Yes. 08:53 You are a biologist, 08:55 tell me the most compelling reasons 08:58 right from your heart the most compelling reasons 09:01 you find in the world of biology 09:03 why a thinking person can believe in God? 09:06 To me it's just the incredible 09:08 elegant designs of biological systems 09:11 whether it's at the level of an organism 09:14 or at the level of a cell. 09:16 The way these systems are put together, 09:18 it's so elegant and so sophisticated 09:20 and so clever that was what prompted me 09:23 to believe that there had to be a mind 09:25 behind everything as an agnostic. 09:28 Now you know-- you know a trillion times 09:31 more about these things than I do, 09:33 at least a trillion, maybe more. 09:35 You know, your argument of the one quadrillionth 09:37 of the one quadrillionth of one quadrillionth. 09:40 Well, that's about where I am at, 09:41 you know, with biology. 09:43 Give me some specific examples. 09:47 Look upon me now as an agnostic, 09:50 not an atheist but an agnostic. 09:52 A person who says, 09:53 I don't know what to believe 09:55 and I am on the point of accepting 09:58 or not accepting, of going with God 10:01 or becoming like Richard Dawkins. 10:03 Hit me with the-- 10:05 Give me some hard arguments why I should believe. 10:08 Well, one of the things that I find to be mind-boggling 10:11 as a biochemist is that the way in which 10:13 biochemical systems are put together 10:16 is identical to how we would design systems 10:20 as human engineers and human designers. 10:23 And this is essentially revitalizing 10:25 the old watchmaker argument of William Paley, 10:27 a watch requires a mind-- 10:29 Do you think that's a legitimate argument? 10:31 I do because that argument is taken to the next level 10:36 and the next level with what we've learned 10:37 about biochemical systems. 10:39 So for example the way in which DNA is managed 10:44 and manipulated by the cells machinery 10:46 is identical to how computer systems fundamentally function. 10:50 This British mathematician Alan Turing 10:53 devised something called the Turing machine 10:55 which is the theoretical framework 10:58 for how computer systems operate. 10:59 And inside the cell when you look at how 11:02 DNA is manipulated, it literally 11:04 is a collection of Turing machines 11:06 that are operating on the DNA. 11:08 The cell in effect is a very sophisticated 11:11 computer system at its very essence. 11:14 And we all have computer systems 11:17 or most people do sitting on their, 11:20 you know, on their office desks. 11:21 Nobody in their right mind would think that a computer system 11:25 just simply came about through 11:27 the assembly of individual component parts. 11:32 And so why would we think 11:33 when we look at biochemical systems 11:36 that at essence our computer systems 11:38 but much more sophisticated, 11:40 why wouldn't we think they came about 11:41 through simply chance of events. 11:43 That's an argument that appeals to me 11:47 and I am sure to many other people. 11:49 Let's go to astronomy for a moment 11:52 and then let's come back and we'll talk about the cell. 11:56 Can you give me, Dr. Ross, 11:58 as an astronomer your strongest reason 12:02 that the universe is fine-tuned for life? 12:05 You know we talked about the Anthropic principle, 12:07 Anthropos, the Greek word for man. 12:12 Look upon me as an agnostic, 12:13 give me your strongest reason 12:16 that the universe was made for human beings. 12:19 Well, what I would tell you right off 12:20 is this is no longer an issue of debate. 12:23 All astronomers and physicists recognize, 12:25 we look at the universe as a whole in the laws of physics. 12:29 We see overwhelming evidence that has been fine-tuned design 12:33 to make possible existence of life 12:35 in human beings in particular 12:37 but that allows you to keep at a distance. 12:39 You know the universe is big. 12:41 Yeah. Yeah. 12:42 The truth is that principle applies 12:44 when we look at our cluster of galaxies. 12:46 We look at the design features of a Milky Way Galaxy. 12:49 We look at our solar system, the planets and the stars. 12:52 Look at our moon. 12:54 No matter all levels of size scale 12:57 we see this overwhelming evidence for design. 13:00 We see on the way the surface of the earth is structured. 13:03 In fact if you go to our website, 13:06 you'll see over 900 different features 13:09 that must be fine- tune designed 13:11 to make possible existence of human beings on earth. 13:13 How fine tuning is it? 13:16 You say fine-tune, 13:17 but tell me something, give me a figure. 13:20 Is it, if it's out by one in two 13:23 or by one in a hundred or what? 13:25 If you were to ask me as a scientist, 13:27 where do we find the most spectacular evidence 13:29 for fine tuning design that we can measure, 13:31 it will be dark energy. 13:34 You know, dark energy tells us 13:35 how rapidly the universe is gonna 13:37 expand over its history. 13:39 If it expanded too quickly, all you get is gas, 13:42 if it expanded too slowly all you gonna get 13:45 get are black holes and neutron stars. 13:47 If you want the stars and planets 13:49 for life as possible that dark energy 13:52 must be fine-tune to better than one part 13:55 in tenth to the 120 second power. 13:58 You say that last bit again, to what? 14:00 One part in tenth to the 120 second power. 14:04 That's 122 zeros after the one. 14:07 To put that in context that exceeds 14:10 the best example of human engineering design 14:13 by 10 to the 97 times. 14:16 We'll be back after this break. 14:18 We're talking about the theory of evolution. 14:25 Hello friend, I am John Carter in Colombia. 14:29 Behind me is the great city of Bogota, 14:32 the capital of this amazing country. 14:36 This city is a city of more than eight million souls. 14:42 It's up more than 8,000 feet in the Andes. 14:48 And we've come here today with one purpose in mind, 14:52 to preach the everlasting gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14:56 We are here because we have a commission from God. 15:00 Jesus said, "Go into all the world 15:04 and preach the everlasting gospel, 15:07 baptizing them in the name of the Father, 15:09 and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." 15:12 The people here need the gospel of Christ. 15:17 And I am asking you today come with us, 15:19 if not in body but come with us in spirit. 15:23 This is been a very, very dangerous city, 15:26 a very dangerous part of the world. 15:29 But we believe that we are safe when we are in the hands of God. 15:34 Therefore I am beseeching you in the name of Christ 15:38 and in the names of these eight million plus inhabitants 15:43 in the city of Bogota to come 15:46 and help us to preach the word of God. 15:49 Please support the preaching of the word of God in Columbia. 15:53 Please write to me, John Carter, 15:55 PO Box 1900, Thousand Oaks, California, 91358. 16:01 In Australia, write to me at the address, 16:04 Terrigal, New South Wales, Australia. 16:08 Jesus said, 16:10 "Work while it is day 16:12 the night is coming when no man can work." 16:15 Please write to me today. 16:17 Thank you and God bless you. 16:26 Welcome back to the Carter Report. 16:28 We're talking today about the theory of evolution. 16:32 I've two great guests with me. 16:35 Dr. Hugh Ross, glad to have you 16:36 with us today here and Dr. Fazale Rana, 16:40 glad to have you with us. 16:41 Faz, describe to me please in ten words or less, 16:49 describe to me the complexity of a single cell 16:54 and tell me how it could evolve from nothing. 16:58 Well, I mean the best analogy would be to think of a city 17:02 like the city of Los Angeles that in the fact is 17:05 the type of complexity that you began to see 17:09 when you think about what's happening inside-- 17:10 Is this really so or is this, pardon my saying, 17:14 is this a little hyped up? 17:17 Is the cell really like Los Angeles? 17:19 It's probably even much more sophisticated 17:22 and complex than the city of Los Angeles. 17:24 Certainly better run. 17:27 Yeah, but, and you know you are looking at 17:29 a collection of operations and processes 17:33 that are taking place that are highly integrated 17:35 in network together. 17:37 Break it down for me as a lay person. 17:39 Describe how a cell-- 17:41 do you understand how a cell functions? 17:44 As hopefully as much as anybody does. 17:46 I mean, we still are learning more and more 17:47 about what's going on in the cell. 17:48 But do you really understand it? Yes, I think so. 17:51 Well, tell me then how does 17:52 a cell function and describe the complexity? 17:55 Again, it's the system that is 17:57 extremely complex, highly networked 17:59 where you've got these complex processes 18:03 that are going on where the different processes 18:05 are talking to each other 18:06 at the just right time making sure 18:08 all the operations inside the cell are taking place. 18:11 So you got a control center and the nucleus. 18:14 How big is a cell? 18:16 Uh, it depends on the type of cell you are dealing with. 18:18 Bacteria, about a micron in size. 18:21 How big is a micron? 18:22 One millionth of a meter. 18:24 So about a millionth of a yard. 18:28 It's relatively small. Right. 18:31 Other type of cells that are called eukaryotic cells-- 18:34 So you gentlemen are at the very opposite end. 18:37 Of the spectrum, aren't you? Yes. 18:38 You are into the smallest and you are into the biggest. 18:41 Right. 18:42 So this is a great combination here. 18:43 There it is. 18:45 Okay, so we got a thing that's a-- 18:47 did you say a millionth of a meter. 18:50 Yeah, that's-- Meter is 39 inches. 18:51 Yeah, that's-- that would be a bacterium. 18:54 There are some cells that are can be up to about 18:57 200 microns in size that are just 19:00 barely visible with the human eye. 19:02 Oh, so, it's quite big. 19:03 Yeah, so like an egg cell for example. 19:05 Say you got a membrane around this thing. 19:08 Right, so it's kind of like 19:09 the city wall and it controls-- 19:11 And what's inside it? 19:13 Inside if it is again a whole collection of molecules 19:16 that are carrying out all kinds of different operations. 19:19 You have again, 19:20 the nucleus is the control center it's- 19:22 and then it directs the production of molecules 19:25 called proteins which are the molecules 19:27 that are carrying out all the activities in the cell. 19:29 This is like, these are like the machines 19:32 but the production of these machines is doing assembly line 19:35 like process happening at these structures called the ribosome. 19:40 You've got mitochondria which were 19:41 the power houses of the cell that are producing energy 19:45 for the cell's operations to use. 19:47 You've got highway systems happening in the cell 19:50 that are moving materials back and forth 19:53 to different location at the just right time. 19:56 You know, I'm talking now as a lay person, 20:00 you are talking as scientist but it boggles my mind 20:05 to come to the viewpoint that this happened by itself. 20:12 Basically it happened by itself. 20:14 Isn't that what the evolution-- atheistic evolution says? 20:17 That's exactly they would argue that 20:19 it starts with simple molecules that began to interact 20:23 and form more complex molecules 20:25 and then began to associate into these conglomerates 20:29 that begin to adopt the properties of life. 20:32 And so it's essentially evolution applied to molecules 20:36 is how evolutionary biologist attempt 20:38 to account for the origination for life. 20:40 Now, let me play the devil's advocate. 20:45 Many scientists believe that life evolved on planet earth 20:49 over a relatively short period of time. 20:52 They say that the earth is so many billions of years old 20:57 and there was hideous period, 20:59 nothing could live during the hideous period. 21:02 And then, correct me if I am misquoting 21:05 but many scientists believe there was 21:08 a window in time of about 100 million years 21:14 and at the beginning of the hundred million years 21:16 you got nothing, 21:17 at the end of the hundred million years 21:19 you got life and all those complexity. 21:24 In your opinion, 21:26 is it possible to go 21:28 from zero to a Los Angeles 21:34 running with tremendous efficiency 21:36 in that relatively short period of time? 21:41 I am highly skeptical that could happen 21:43 and in fact most origin of life researchers who are atheists, 21:47 who are committed to the evolutionally paradigm 21:49 in private world readily admit 21:52 they have no way to explain the origin of life. 21:55 Their commitment to the evolutionally paradigm 21:58 is primarily philosophical where you know, 22:01 they have already rejected the notion 22:04 that this is designed, 22:05 this got to be evolution but we have no clue 22:07 how that happened. 22:09 There's no alternative viewpoint 22:11 that's worthy of their consideration. 22:12 And more and more that we study the origin of life problem 22:15 the more and more difficult the problem becomes. 22:21 Now this is going completely in a different direction. 22:23 We're going to from the smallest to the biggest. 22:26 Now you are a noted astronomer. 22:29 You have worked on quasars and all of those things, 22:32 haven't you at Caltech? Yes. 22:33 Yes. What's a quasar? 22:35 Well, a quasar is a super giant black hole 22:38 in center of a giant galaxy 22:40 that's sucking in huge quantities of gas 22:42 and converting into a-- 22:43 Much bugger than a cell. Yes. 22:47 So it's a vast thing? Yes. 22:49 Now the universe out there is incredibly complex, isn't it? 22:53 It is. 22:55 But it's all working together and is finely balanced. 22:59 Yes, for the benefit if life. 23:03 And so you told us about dark energy. 23:08 Isn't that the stuff that nobody knows 23:10 a lot about that composes 23:12 most of the stuff in the universe? 23:15 Makes up of about three quarters 23:17 of all the stuff of the universe. 23:18 That's the dark energy. That's the dark energy. 23:20 That not the dark matter? 23:21 No. Dark matter is something else. 23:23 What is it? What's the percentage? 23:25 You put them both together, it adds up to about 99.73% 23:29 of all the stuff of the universe. 23:30 So most of the stuff in the universe 23:32 we can't even see, even with the-- 23:33 we have telescopes. 23:34 All the stars and galaxies 23:36 that's a quarter of a percent 23:37 of all the stuff of the universe. 23:38 Say it again. Quarter of a percent. 23:40 So all the stuff we see, stuff I put up on the screens 23:43 when I talk of astronomy. 23:45 Right. That's a quarter of a percent. 23:46 All that tremendous stuff I put up on the screen, 23:48 that's a quarter of one percent. 23:49 Right. 23:50 And the other stuff, we really 23:51 don't know much about it. 23:52 Well, we are learning a lot about it 23:54 and we are learning that it has to be exceptionally 23:56 fine-tune both in its quantity 23:59 and its specific locations in the universe, 24:02 in order to make possible the existence of life. 24:04 Is it not true that the dark energy 24:09 is driving the expansion of the universe? 24:11 It's a primary factors not the only factor 24:14 but it's a primary factor governing 24:16 the expansion of the universe today. 24:18 When universe was young, the matter of the universe 24:21 was actually more important than the dark energy. 24:23 But you need both the matter 24:25 and the dark energy to be fine-tuned. 24:28 Now what is-- when you say fine-tuned, 24:31 to what extend is the fine tuning? 24:33 Now it is the fact, we know it's a fact. 24:37 People can't argue with this 24:38 that the universe is expanding. Yes. 24:41 And universe did have a beginning. 24:43 Now, of course this is all in harmony with scripture. 24:46 Genesis 1, my old Bible says, 24:48 in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 24:52 So the Bible doesn't talk about a universe 24:55 that has no beginning and no ending. 24:57 Not I like the oscillations of the Hindus 25:01 and that noted astronomer 25:03 that you spoke about in a previous program. 25:06 Okay, 25:09 if the universe were to expand too fast or to slow down, 25:15 would not the results be catastrophic? 25:18 It'd be catastrophic in the sense 25:19 you would not have the stars and planets 25:22 that you need to make life possible 25:24 showing up at the right time in a location of the universe. 25:27 So we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here. 25:29 So break it down for me and for my great audience 25:33 who are listening spell bound to this program on evolution. 25:39 Tell me, try to break it down to me 25:42 the fine tuning of this dark matter 25:45 that is largely responsible for the expansion of the universe 25:49 which is largely responsible for us being here. 25:52 Well, there's two components in the fine tuning. 25:55 The expansion of the universe 25:57 determines what elements you are going to get. 25:59 And so for example if you expand universe 26:01 too quickly all you gonna get is nothing 26:03 but hydrogen and helium 26:05 of the whole age of the universe. 26:07 And we can't live on that. 26:08 You can't live on that or if you expanded 26:11 too slowly everything gets fused up 26:13 to elements heavier than iron. 26:15 In both cases you are lacking the carbon and nitrogen 26:18 and the oxygen, the elements crucial 26:20 for the existence of life. 26:21 So just to get the right chemistry 26:24 dark energy and the mass of the universe 26:26 must be extraordinary fine-tuned. 26:28 They also must be extraordinary fine-tuned 26:31 to get stars and planets so it makes life possible. 26:34 Expanded too fast, stars won't form, 26:37 expanded too slowly, all you get is big stars 26:40 that burn up quickly 26:42 and wind up being black holes and neutron stars, 26:45 now where molecules aren't even possible. 26:48 You can't have life without molecules. 26:50 And the astronomers are as far back 26:52 as 40 years ago determined 26:54 that the degree of fine tuning design 26:56 is many, many orders of miniature greater 27:00 than anything we human beings are capable of which mean-- 27:03 Comprehending. Yeah, yes. 27:05 Which means the one that created the universe 27:08 must be much more intelligent, 27:10 knowledgeable creator and powerful 27:13 than we human beings. 27:14 And we can actually put a number on it 27:16 that eliminates all the Gods from contention 27:19 except the one we see described in the holy Bible. 27:22 And so it seems to me, and in these areas 27:25 I am a complete lay person 27:27 that whether you go from the smallest, 27:30 a micron inside a cell or you go to the biggest, 27:36 the universe is overwhelming evidence 27:39 to believe that we came from the hand of God. 27:44 Thank you so much for joining us today. 27:47 I hope you have enjoyed this program. 27:49 Please write to me, John Carter. 27:51 The address is now appearing on the screen. 27:53 PO Box 1900, Thousand Oaks. 27:56 And in Australia, it's Terrigal. 27:58 And please write to Dr. Ross, Dr, Rana 28:01 at Reasons to Believe. 28:04 And remember this, God made you 28:08 and Christ died for you. 28:10 Good bye for now. |
Revised 2014-12-17