Participants: David Asscherick & Shanda Ban (Host), Virna & Lisa Santos
Series Code: E
Program Code: E000006
|
00:20 Hello my name is David Asscherick, welcome to Engage.
00:23 I'm here at the co-host Shandra Ban. 00:25 We are going to be taking a look at the testimony 00:28 that is so powerful, so inspiring that 00:32 you will be absolutely thrilled. 00:34 We have two guests back with us that have been with us 00:37 before and we want to introduce you to them. 00:39 Virna and Lisa Santos, thank you so much for joining us. 00:43 You have been with us before and to be honest your 00:46 testimony is so powerful what God has done in your life. 00:49 It is so powerful we could have the one for 10 programs. 00:51 I think only been we would really be getting the feel the 00:55 strength and breath of your story. 00:57 When we were together last time, just to bring some of our 01:01 viewers up to speed here, you had told us you had gone 01:06 into the homosexual lifestyle, the homosexual community 01:09 and this was not just a explora- tory thing, you were in it. 01:14 You were in this thing for 20 years right? - yeah. 01:19 You even had a partner, a significant partner for seven 01:23 or eight years and a child with that partner, who of 01:26 course is to your child today, Julian. 01:28 Lisa you lived with a woman for time as well, three 01:33 years,- and so now you have come out of that lifestyle. 01:37 Hallelujah, God has done great and wonderful things. 01:40 That is what we want to talk about. 01:42 We want to really understand, there are so many things 01:45 want to talk about, but we want to understand your 01:46 testimony even more fully. 01:49 You have started the Ministry and we also want to talk 01:53 about some principles how can people like myself and 01:56 Shandra of who of course are not gay and many of our 01:59 viewers, most of them, almost all of them not. 02:01 We do believe that there are some tuning in who may have 02:04 some of the same struggles that you had. 02:06 How do we minister to people? How do we give hope to 02:08 those who might have had the same feelings and 02:11 experiences that you had? 02:12 So when we were at the last time you made the statement 02:16 that God spoken to you at the moment of conversion, that 02:20 pivotal moment of conversion. 02:22 That statement was so profound, it was straight from the 02:26 throne of God.- yes it was that conviction laid on my 02:29 heart and I felt it was God's voice. 02:31 What I heard was if Sunday is the counterfeit to 02:35 My Sabbath what then would be the counterfeit to 02:39 My creation? That is when I dropped to my knees 02:41 and I repented. 02:43 It was days hearing counterfeit, counterfeit, counterfeit. 02:46 The Lord was bringing back to my memory things 02:48 I needed to repent for and the realization was that the Lord 02:52 never left me, even throughout the wilderness 02:55 His love was there waiting. 02:58 So you repented for days you said these things just kept 03:01 coming over and over because repentance is something we so 03:03 often, oh I'm sorry for this, and just move on. 03:07 This conviction that is amazing, powerful. 03:09 I love the language there where she says that there was 03:14 this conviction, this is something God is doing. 03:18 No one was knocking on my door, and my mom was praying 03:23 for me for 20 years and she was having other people 03:26 praying for me at that time so it was the 03:30 Spirit of God moving. 03:31 So after this voice you hear, counterfeit, repentance, 03:38 you start studying to be baptized is that correct? 03:41 Yes that is when I called the Pastor and said Pastor I'd 03:44 like to be baptized. - hallelujah Amen. 03:47 However I need to meet with you. 03:49 Um Hmmm because you hadn't told anyone anything at this 03:51 point. - no one knew nothing about me. 03:53 So I felt I needed to tell the truth, he needed to know 03:58 what he was baptizing. 04:00 So you set him and his wife down and you just lay it on 04:03 the table, - I laid it all out and they were sitting 04:06 there going they were just going 04:10 They did not know this person for three months going to 04:13 their church, sitting in the back pew, bringing my little 04:15 girl, and we are not socializing with anyone. 04:19 We go to the potluck we eat, we leave and they knew 04:22 nothing, and so they sat there and they were just like 04:25 wow, wow. - what else can you say? 04:28 Yet he couldn't say anything but praise the Lord, 04:31 let's pray, that's all and he, the Pastor just accepted 04:37 me with open arms. 04:38 Praise God! Praise God! 04:40 So now Lisa you shared with us last time that you are 04:43 reading 'The Great Controversy', you are studying and you 04:45 are coming to this realization too that God is working on 04:48 your heart. How does that go? 04:50 I just felt like the Holy Spirit was calling me, drawing 04:53 me back to truth that were reawakening. 04:59 Just truth and faith, reading more of The Great Controversy 05:07 not only the state of the dead but just reading all these 05:10 chapters and it was just like wow, things were coming 05:14 back to me and I felt a softening in my heart. 05:18 I was writing a letter to my brother, so sorry if 05:22 I was ever rude to you. 05:23 Wow, so this conviction was coming over you as well? 05:26 Yes, yes - probably right around the same time as mine? 05:30 Same time and when I fly to her to see my Doctor to stay 05:35 with her for a few days we were sharing our faith and it was 05:38 cute because two little girls re-discovering... 05:45 You would come to me and Hover over me in the middle of the 05:47 night, like four o'clock in the morning, Virna we got to 05:50 get up the Lord told me to read the last four chapters 05:52 of The Great Controversy again. 05:54 I'm like okay lets go and I wanted to sleep. 05:58 But she would wake me up and be hovering over me and 06:00 I was just what! 06:02 She goes to you know there was an earthquake? 06:04 Jesus is coming really soon. And I'm like okay let's 06:08 pray and were talking and saying God is laying on my 06:13 heart all my sins like from when I stole a pen when 06:15 I was 10 years old. 06:17 Oh wow. - it was just amazing. 06:20 God is moving -God is definitely moving and we felt 06:23 like sponges and want to absorb everything and just 06:26 pulling out all the literature that I actually had 06:29 throughout the 20 years. Sitting in my closet and 06:32 my Bible, every thing came out of the closet. 06:35 She spread it on the coffee table and was like where do 06:38 I begin. - I'm so overwhelmed where do I start? 06:42 So you start studying with your Pastor to become baptized 06:47 and Lisa at this point is not quite there yet, and not 06:51 quite wanting to be baptized right? 06:54 But she asked me - I asked her and told her Lisa it's 06:58 not like you're taking my thunder, it is not about that. 07:01 Why don't we just get baptized together? 07:04 I wasn't really thinking about that but it really gave 07:10 me something to think about. 07:12 From there I was reading in The Desire of Ages baptism. 07:18 It just talked about the death, burial, and resurrection 07:23 of Jesus and it really touched my heart. 07:27 I'm like if I do not do this I may never do this. 07:31 I had no reason not to do this. 07:33 - there was an urgency. - there was an urgency. 07:35 So she surprised me, we are Church that morning at my 07:40 baptism and she, - and what date was that? 07:42 That was January 31, 2009. - of course. 07:47 - about 10:45 a.m., 07:49 no it was right after Sabbath school. 07:52 She comes to me and says I decided to get baptized and 07:54 I just embraced her it was like praise the Lord, 07:57 of course she did not know that I had the Pastor, 07:59 Pastor Jerry Agora I had told him the night before to 08:03 please pray for Lisa so she will get baptized. 08:05 And your mom is here to witness your baptism? - yes. 08:09 She didn't know that Lisa was going to get baptized at all. 08:11 I just have to say I love just dates, she's amazing, 08:15 she is just amazing, praise God, this is so exciting keep going. 08:21 So actually let me ask you a question Virna, at this point 08:23 you are fully convinced in your heart that Jesus has got 08:27 the victory over your homosexuality, but you are still 08:30 friends with the people in the gay community and tell us 08:33 about how you invited them to come? 08:35 Oh I invited every single one of them. 08:38 I invited all my friends, invited all my relatives, 08:42 I invited my ex-partner and her wife and my daughter 08:47 and all these people, when that day came 08:50 only one person showed up. 08:54 And that was my ex-partner, my daughter's birth mother. 08:58 Right, - wow - how powerful. 09:01 That was really powerful and I was like okay Lord there 09:04 is a purpose in this and so we were sitting in the pews 09:08 and Pastor Agora was up there let's have our two candidates 09:14 came up and my mom takes a look at me and I am looking 09:18 at my mom and I stand up and Lisa is on the other side 09:21 of my mom. 09:22 - she doesn't even know at this point and asking who 09:24 is the other candidate? She's looking at me and 09:26 I'm just crying sitting there listening to this person 09:28 saying you lift me up by Josh Grogan and I'm in tears. 09:32 - someone was singing. - yes they were singing and 09:34 I was just ahh and my mom was thinking are you okay, 09:38 who's the other candidate in I'm like 09:40 I can't tell you it's a surprise. 09:43 He calls for you to stand up. I stand up and looked 09:49 over at Lisa to stand up and my mom just takes this 09:53 wild look to her left, like and she is seeing Lisa 09:58 stands up and my mom just breaks down. 10:00 My ex-partner sitting next to my mom and my ex-partner 10:04 is the one comforting my mom. 10:06 They go, all of them, all three of them my mom, 10:10 my ex-partner, and my daughter go behind the baptistery 10:13 and watch us get buried and come back out of the water. 10:17 Now Lisa you mentioned that there was something very 10:21 significant about the way you felt during your baptism? 10:23 I know the water is not magical but when I was dunked 10:28 underneath and came back up I really felt like my old self 10:35 died, like I left it in the water and we were just like a 10:41 breath of fresh air and we were talking right after and 10:45 Virna said wow do you feel like, yeah. 10:49 We can't really describe it, it just felt so, I don't know 10:57 I couldn't find a word and even unto this day we can't 10:59 find the words and it is such a miraculous experience to 11:02 go through that death, burial and resurrection of Christ 11:05 that we can actually experience it through baptism by 11:09 immersion. - during this whole time I was praying 11:11 Lord give me evidence that this is real this time. 11:15 But this is You this time, this is not me just going 11:18 through the motions and covering something up, 11:19 that this is really real. 11:22 So downstairs during potluck I see my mom and the Pastor 11:27 engaging in this conversation. 11:29 My mom is holding the Pastor's hand, - and how does she 11:32 say it? She says I know you, I met you 10 years ago at 11:38 a Filipino convocation. 11:39 - know how to she say it? - we want to hear how she 11:42 would say it. - how she would say it? 11:44 Oh the accent. You know I know you, I've met you before 11:50 I wrote on a note about my daughter, she wasn't going to 11:59 church anymore. The Pastor's face was like looking at her 12:05 and he was remembering. I'm watching this conversation 12:08 and she is like that was Virna I was talking to you about. 12:13 So I looked up to the Lord, thank you. 12:16 - 10 years before your mom was praying. 12:19 My mom and I Pastor had met and mom had spoken of me to 12:21 him and he brought me to. 12:23 - God's providence is amazing isn't it? 12:25 This is the very time that she is asking for evidence 12:28 and this is happening right in front of her, 12:30 Oh hallelujah. 12:33 God answers prayers before we even ask. - Amen. 12:37 So after your baptism experience you feel called in to 12:41 ministry, but you are not sure. 12:42 How do you go about doing ministry? 12:45 Right, the whole time we were constantly in prayer. 12:49 For months I think we have some ideas of a ministry but 12:53 we just didn't materialize anything we had planned. 12:57 I think we were talking about website at one point. 13:03 We were like how do we get this done, all we just don't 13:08 have information or anything. 13:10 Like we were really excited at that point, we wanted to 13:12 go somewhere with this so we decided to go to ARISE and 13:15 we went through three week cross training program 13:18 last summer of 2009. 13:20 Thing coming out of that I became a Bible worker, 13:23 Lisa focused on her health and you went to? 13:25 I went to Weimer, - right. 13:27 Weimer is a health college in California. 13:29 Their New Start program in which I got off some really 13:33 dangerous drugs. - because you were diagnosed with lupus 13:36 several years before as we mentioned in the last episode. 13:39 I think that chronic stress really affected my body, 13:43 otherwise we have a disconnect between our head in our physical 13:46 being, our blood remembers but we forget. 13:52 So I went to Weimer and it was blessing to go through that 13:57 because I really experience the Lord in a very personal 14:00 way there, had an encounter there with Him. 14:03 Felt His tenderness, His love just Lisa I am with you. 14:09 I'm going to walk you through this. 14:10 And Virna you were given an opportunity to share this 14:13 testimony at the Central California Camp meeting, 14:16 a 10 day event where all the Seventh-day Adventists in 14:19 central California come together and there are meetings 14:21 and you are able to share your testimony in the youth 14:24 department, is that correct? 14:25 Yes, that was just this past summer and after I had just 14:30 finished sharing my testimony a young boy, about 16 years 14:34 old came up to me and said he was gay and he did not want 14:38 to be and he was just praying the night before that he 14:42 needed to hear someone talk about this issue. 14:45 We are ministering to him now and he has proclaimed 14:48 victory by God's grace and he wants to go into the 14:52 ministerial work and we keep in touch on a weekly basis. 14:55 We talked and we pray together all the time and shortly 14:59 after that when we came home from camp meeting we were 15:02 contacted by two other individuals. 15:04 Someone who is attending PUC, - Pacific Union College in 15:08 California, yeah - yeah a college in California. 15:12 So there is about three to four souls that 15:14 we are supporting and directing them to Jesus. 15:18 So this is even lead to further, you see that God is 15:21 placing these people in your path and instructing, 15:23 it is evident saying you are on the right track, 15:26 thank you for following Me I'm going to show you that 15:29 I have people in your life that 15:30 you can be an influence on. 15:31 Now you actually have had the opportunity to start 15:33 a ministry where you tell us about that ministry? 15:36 Well our ministry just really unfolded in just the last 15:39 few weeks and our ministry is By Beholding His Love and 15:44 the goals of our ministry is to minister to those who 15:46 want to overcome and want to have a closer relationship 15:51 with Jesus and we believe that everyone should be 15:54 entitled to experience their own walk with the Lord. 15:58 To experience the love of Christ for themselves hence part 16:02 of our ministry is helping the church, giving the church 16:06 resources, and how we respond to people 16:09 who do want to overcome. 16:11 There is a lot of shame and guilt around a lifestyle 16:15 like this and any sin. 16:18 Homosexuality is not a crowning sin, sin is sin, 16:25 we get the same results, we are separated from our Lord. 16:29 The wages of sin is death and we are separated from God. 16:32 God longs to be with us regardless of what we have done. 16:36 His love is there an His love is what changes. 16:44 Well maybe we can talk little bit about some of that 16:46 ministry, there are so many things that you have said here 16:48 that would be, that we can spend a great amount of time on. 16:52 Two things actually that jumped out at me, I don't know 16:55 if you saw the irony of this, I don't know if anybody 16:56 else saw the irony in this but you were saying all 16:58 my literature it was in the closet and all of 17:02 my literature and my Bible was coming out of the closet. 17:05 That is the language, that is the language that is often 17:08 used when someone is transition- ing out of the Heterosexual 17:12 community, they are coming out of the closet and did 17:15 you see the irony in that? 17:17 Yeah, I missed it. 17:22 We use the same language now, we are encouraging people to 17:25 come out and talk about it, there is nothing to be ashamed 17:29 about the Gospel of Christ. 17:31 - well there in Revelation Chapter 18, come out of her 17:33 My people, of course that is out of spiritual Babylon but 17:36 spiritual Babylon is all error. 17:38 God is calling, and the thing I love it is not just about 17:41 what God is calling us out of, but it is what He is 17:44 calling us into. 17:46 And what He is calling us into is a relationship with 17:48 Jesus. - His love. 17:50 I saw that irony and I had to bring that up, and here's 17:53 the other thing you were talking about when you were 17:57 baptized, you said the water is not magical and we know 18:01 that, we are not big on the sacraments we believe what 18:04 the Bible says that baptism is an outward sign of an 18:08 inward reality, but the language you are using, 18:11 I have just got to remind us of this. 18:13 It is straight out of Romans six, listen to what he says. 18:17 "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that 18:21 "grace may abound, certainly not. How shall we who died 18:24 "to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that 18:27 "as many of us that were baptized into Christ Jesus were 18:30 "baptized into His death, therefore we were buried. 18:33 "You were crucified with him for he who was died has been 18:37 "freed from sin now if we died with Christ we believe 18:40 "we shall also live with Him." 18:41 I mean 6,7,8, times in these few verses in the beginning 18:44 of Romans six he is saying you died at your baptism, 18:47 you died at your baptism, you died at your baptism and 18:49 here I'm going to go out on a limb, when you are having 18:52 that experience Lisa were you aware of this particular 18:55 passage, in other words were you like this is a Romans 6 18:58 experience? Or are you just having the experience? 19:00 NO! I was having that experience. -that is so awesome. 19:03 That is such a confirmation of the text of Scripture. 19:07 We sometimes talk about how, oh we don't want our 19:10 experience to drive our relationship but the reality is 19:13 that our experience forms our relationship with Jesus. 19:16 Here you are having this experience that is totally 19:19 consistent with Scripture, I mean it is the language of 19:22 Scripture and like you said it's incommunicable. 19:25 You are trying, how do you communicate the person I was 19:29 there and now this is the person I am and of course it 19:32 is a process but that moment. 19:34 To me it just so ministered to my soul Lisa when you are 19:38 used in that very language, I was thinking ahh this is 19:41 Romans 6, this is Romans 6, this is Romans 6. 19:43 That carries onto Galatians 2:22 because it's living in 19:49 Christ, - that's right I'm crucified with Christ. 19:52 If not I that live but Christ lives within me. 19:55 So one of the things I loved about your testimony to be 20:01 honest, and I love everything about it. 20:02 One of the things that's so ministers to me is that you 20:06 are not just saying I think Jesus as my Savior. 20:08 We have excepted Jesus as our Savior, and now we want 20:13 others, you have the mission, you have not just the 20:17 Christ but the mission of the Christ. Go please! 20:21 We were really convicted, the title of our ministry 20:25 I'm praising God because He came up with that title 20:29 because we are, or I am experiencing beholding Jesus 20:34 every day in this walk, in this Christian walk. 20:37 And by beholding Him it's like I do not want to live 20:42 a life contrary to what He is. 20:46 He is a love and by beholding that you just want to 20:51 please God and commit to what He is asking of you. 20:56 That is just giving Him your heart and serving Him. 21:01 And that is my commitment to Him, like when I lived 21:05 contrary to him all those years, I commit myself in 21:10 service to helping others. 21:12 Now that transition - go ahead please. 21:14 This was the burden in our mission when we wanted to do 21:17 this ministry and reach out to others, we were like 21:20 we do not want to get stuck in the politics of it and all 21:22 the red tape, which just help people know about God's 21:25 love and the love of Christ. - fire in your bones. 21:28 There was this urgency and we felt the magnitude of how 21:33 we lived in the wilderness we need to far exceed that 21:37 magnitude for the glory of God. 21:39 I love that language, the wilderness that is exactly 21:42 what it was, it was a wilderness experience. 21:44 When you use that language the grounds in Scripture 21:47 because the Israelites in the wilderness, Jesus in the 21:50 wilderness, there are many instances of people going 21:53 into the wilderness and then coming 21:55 out of that wilderness experience. 21:57 For you coming out of the wilderness experience is coming 21:59 out of the homosexual lifestyle, and that transition, 22:02 I mean when you are in there for 20 years that just 22:05 doesn't happen like that. 22:07 Maybe very briefly, how have some of your friends, 22:12 your whole social circle as well, how has that 22:16 been a tough transition? 22:18 Yes it has and it has been scary because I love my friends 22:22 and I would hate for them to experience any kind of hate 22:25 or violence because that is not how Christ works. 22:29 - right.- when I had to come out to them and tell 22:33 them why was now in Christ, I told them immediately I am 22:39 no longer gay, I don't identify gay anymore, I believe it 22:43 is biblical and believe that God doesn't want me to be gay 22:47 but that does not make me any better than you. 22:51 Christ died for everyone, but if you feel I am no longer a 22:57 person you would consider a friend, I would respect that. 23:03 So the response I got from them was amazing. 23:08 - it was positive. - it was positive they were like 23:10 all right we still love you, we will work it out. 23:15 One of your friends said your conversion was like finding 23:19 the love of your life. 23:20 - Yeah. I had a friend hold my hand and said I'm so happy 23:23 for you, it's like if you found a love of your life. 23:27 - isn't that so true, that is that experience with Christ 23:29 that is finding that love and that is like you said 23:33 why you've chosen to have your ministry called 23:35 By Beholding His Love. 23:37 Amen and that just blew me away because I was like 23:38 that is what she sees, wow, that ministered to me again. 23:44 I find the Lord ministering to me, 23:46 to us through our friends. 23:49 So this thing you thought was going to be a very 23:52 difficult thing actually ended up being a blessing, 23:56 a witnessing opportunity. - Amen yes. 23:59 I just want to say to our viewers, I hope you heard that 24:04 language, I mean this is someone who was in the gay 24:07 lifestyle, in the gay community and she went back to her 24:12 friends and said I no longer identify as homosexual, I no 24:17 longer identify as gay. I mean the courage and that must 24:22 have been one of the most difficult things 24:24 you have ever did? 24:25 That is when I felt my flesh just full of fear, 24:28 but I was like Lord put words in my mouth and let 24:31 them see You not me. 24:33 So Virna and Lisa can you share with us then and with our 24:37 viewers how can we, we what are some of the practical tips 24:41 you said you were trying to get resources for the church, 24:44 what can I do, what can David do, what do you do to 24:48 minister to the people in the homosexual community? 24:52 Well I think first and foremost you want them to feel safe 24:57 and also be okay that Jesus can meet them where they are, 25:01 because that is how He meets us, where we are. - always. 25:07 Always and just love them to Jesus and then from there 25:13 Jesus will take them and lead them and I feel in my heart 25:17 to be specific in my ministry is to help people who are 25:22 fearful, or homophobic inside, just closeted that 25:27 they can ask should come out with the truth because on 25:31 some level the truth shall set you free. 25:34 I just feel like if they come out and just reach out 25:38 for help and support. 25:40 It is creating that safe space, it is creating a place 25:43 where they can come to someone and talk about this. 25:47 And again it's changing our thinking what is a crowning 25:52 sin, there is no greater sin, they are all sin and so 25:56 we have stated that before. 25:58 Just to show them the love of Christ, just love them, 26:01 pray with them and pray for them. 26:03 Let them know you are praying for them, it's powerful, 26:08 prayer is powerful. 26:09 The truth of the matter is that even though many in the 26:13 Christian community would look with a certain kind of a 26:17 addictional repulsion of the homosexual, sin is sin. 26:20 If there is a sin above any other that God hates it is 26:24 the sin of pride and the reality is that homosexuals 26:28 are people too, I'm looking at you. 26:29 I can walk over like Thomas and I can poke you, 26:32 you are a person. Lisa you are a person 26:34 and sinners are people. 26:37 God has delivered you and you have a passion, 26:41 we just have to read this verse in the forefront. 26:44 1 Corinthians 6 and Paul says there in verse 9, 26:48 "do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the 26:51 "kingdom of God. Do not be deceived neither fornicators, 26:54 "nor adulterers, idolaters, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 26:57 "nor thieves, nor drunkenness, nor revilers, nor 27:00 "extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." And here 27:05 we go verse 11, "and such were some of you, but you were 27:09 "washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the 27:13 "name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 27:17 And I want to say such you were, it is not who you are. 27:22 Because you are new creatures in Christ Jesus. 27:25 Amen, 2 Corinthians 5:17, "old things have passed away." 27:30 There's hope, there is a lot of hope for anyone. 27:33 Oh, you have given me hope, I mean God is alive and 27:37 we knew that before we can on the program but He is just 27:41 so alive and I am encouraged right now. 27:42 I mean overcoming anything, what ever that may be. 27:45 Virna, Lisa thank you so much for joining us and I want 27:49 to say to our viewers you too can be a new creature in 27:52 Christ Jesus, send us an e- mail and get a hold of us at 27:56 Engage@3ABN.org or checks out on face book at Engage. 27:59 Thank you for joining us. |
Revised 2014-12-17