Participants: David Asscherick & Shanda Ban (Host), Josh Cunningham
Series Code: E
Program Code: E000012
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00:19 Hello and welcome to Engage, I'm David Asscherick and we
00:23 are thrilled that you have joined us today for our program. 00:27 Titled, When Love Is Not Enough! 00:30 Now the Bible says in Psalms 37:4, "delight yourself in 00:34 "the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." 00:38 Now that raises the question, what exactly are those 00:41 desires that He gives us? 00:43 There is another hint, a powerful, powerful insight I 00:47 think that we find in the minor prophet book of Haggai. 00:51 Haggai 2:7 in which it refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ 00:55 as "the desire of all nations". 00:59 Think about that for just a moment. 01:01 When we delight ourselves in the Lord He gives us the 01:04 desires of our heart, and according to the Bible Jesus 01:07 is the desires of all nations and all ages. 01:11 So when God gives us the desires of our hearts, do you 01:14 know what He gives us? He gives us Himself. 01:17 Who better to satisfy the longing desires of the human 01:21 heart then Him who made it to desire. 01:24 So our program today, When Love Is Not Enough! 01:27 My co-host Shandra Ban and a returning guest so Shandra 01:31 tell us who is with you today and we are looking forward 01:34 to a great program. 01:36 Absolutely, I'm excited to reintroduce Josh Cunningham to 01:39 our viewers as David mentioned we have had him here before. 01:41 It was a wonderful program about him being a musical 01:44 missionary, a musicianary, Josh if you could just quickly recap 01:48 what we talked about the last time you were here. 01:50 Well last time I was on the program we went over my story 01:53 which basically begins with me being born into an Adventist 01:57 Christian home and growing up to the age of 10 in 02:00 that context and then my family left the church and I 02:03 entered my teenage years rejoicing over the fact I 02:06 didn't have to be part of the church culture I wasn't 02:09 really connected to as a young child. 02:10 I then got involved in playing music and I played rock 'n 02:14 roll music and got in bands and traveled. 02:17 After I finished high school I left home and got in another 02:20 band which then began another chapter in my life. 02:24 That band became quite successful in Australia and to 02:28 lesser extent here in America and elsewhere in the world. 02:32 We had albums that sold in good numbers and we won awards 02:36 and were living a lifestyle that many people would think 02:40 was very desirous, it would be a dream existence 02:44 for a lot of people. 02:45 But then I started to feel like it wasn't quite enough, 02:50 there was something missing, something lacking. 02:51 There was a deeper desire I had within me and no matter of 02:56 fame or fortune or notoriety or things of the world 02:59 places great value on. 03:01 No amount of those things could satisfy those deep 03:03 longings of my heart. 03:04 In the last program we use the analogy language of living water 03:08 - yeah exactly. Then you sang us that beautiful song, 03:12 but that's what it is you are drinking from the earthly 03:16 wells in of fame and success in this desirable lifestyle, 03:19 but then you had a taste of the living water. 03:23 Exactly and I think also the way that transpired was really 03:27 largely to the faithful prayers of my parents, as I mentioned 03:31 they left the church when I was around the age of 10 and they 03:35 eventually went back and they prayed for many years that 03:38 myself and also my brother and sister had a similar 03:41 experience to me in that they departed from the faith. 03:44 So how did it come about that you came back into the faith? 03:47 My parents where praying specifically that God would lead 03:51 people into my path to witness to me. 03:53 I was traveling around in America and elsewhere playing 03:56 music and they prayed specifically that God would the 03:59 people into my path which is exactly what happened. 04:02 There was a two-year sequence where various people coming 04:06 along, beginning conversations in random situations, 04:09 sometimes after shows, sometimes in the checkout line 04:12 at the grocery store, I had people that were giving me 04:16 books to read and I have this growing interest in 04:18 spiritual things and started traveling with the 04:21 Bible reading it occasionally. 04:23 When you say traveling you mean on tour. - on tour yes. 04:26 There was one person in particular that came into your 04:30 path and really showed you who Christ was, can you tell us 04:33 a little bit more about that? 04:34 Yes, it was about five years ago I met a young lady 04:38 on a plane of all places. 04:39 I remember when I first became aware of this person and 04:45 later on she told me she had the same experience, 04:48 there was a sense that there was something very 04:50 significant, it was a magnetism it was an attraction 04:51 that wasn't necessarily a physical attraction. 04:54 It was something more profound and deeper than that. 04:57 Ultimately upon the promptings of some friends that were 05:01 traveling with me and against my natural instinct 05:05 I approached her and introduced myself and invited her 05:09 to come along to a show we were doing in the area. 05:13 - so did she come? She came, but she missed the show, she 05:16 had to work late so she didn't get to see the band play. 05:19 But what happened was we went out afterwards when 05:22 she arrived after we had finished playing, 05:24 we went out to get something to eat. 05:26 We ordered food and sat there and went cold on the table 05:28 and we just got straight into this conversation. 05:33 I didn't realize it but the reason why I had that sense of 05:39 attraction of magnetism of being drawn to this person 05:42 was because God had put her in my path. 05:45 She was the collimation in cess- ation of the people He led to 05:48 witness to me and she was very intentional. 05:52 She saw as an opportunity to witness, because I had 05:55 burdeningly interested in spirituality. 05:59 - but you didn't see it as a decidedly spiritual thing? 06:03 - no, no but she did. 06:05 - she was very intentional about it? 06:07 - Yeah she is very intentional about it. 06:08 - she was a believer? - yeah. 06:09 - you don't know that at the point but now you know 06:12 she is a believer and she sees it as this opportunity. 06:16 Exactly, so when she started witnessing to me the cobs 06:21 that running in my mind and I am suddenly realizing this is 06:23 no accident, this is no coincidence, this person is not 06:27 just here by chance she has been placed here by God. 06:29 He is trying to reach me, He is trying to draw me into 06:32 a relationship with Himself and it was at that moment 06:35 that I really started to get a deep sense of how much 06:38 God cared for me as a broken individual. 06:41 - so this awareness was not something that took place in 06:44 hindsight after the fact, you are having this awareness 06:48 during the cold food conversa- tion? - exactly, exactly! 06:51 So what happened that evening after your conversation? 06:56 Well we said our farewells and we prayed together. 07:00 She prayed with me, but then I went back to my hotel room. 07:03 - were you in the habit of praying? 07:04 No, I hadn't great since I was a little kid. - really? 07:07 When your little kid - but I am saying for her to pray 07:10 with you this was a change, this is great stuff. 07:13 Yeah, I remember having this adrenaline this feeling of 07:16 it was powerful and something was happening. 07:19 I went back to my hotel room and I got down on my knees 07:23 and knelt by the bed and prayed for the first time since 07:27 I was little kid having to say my prayers 07:29 by my bed and then my mom and dad tuck 07:31 me in for the night. 07:33 So yeah I prayed and invited Jesus into my heart, 07:36 I knew as I said that this was no accident, this is an 07:39 intentional thing that He places this person in my path 07:42 for that very reason. 07:44 So you're touring with your band and obviously 07:47 you were not in your hometown, so do to keep in touch 07:50 with her afterwards? - I did and what eventually 07:53 transpired was that we got into a relationship with each 07:56 other, I guess because God had obviously brought us 07:59 together in such a powerful and profound way. 08:01 We felt that He was leading us into a relationship with 08:05 one another and that was a very exciting and wonderful 08:10 thing. You can imagine as a new Christian as this 08:13 adrenaline, this euphoria - and this is the one that led 08:17 there. - it was kind of logical? 08:20 - It seemed like the logical thing, and even though 08:23 we were very, we had to be careful because as 08:26 a brand-new Christian I recognize the need to separate 08:29 the two relationships, so here I am just entering into a 08:32 relationship with Jesus Christ, but then there's this 08:35 human relationship as well that was also very exciting. 08:37 It was like falling in love on two counts. 08:40 - that's not easy to do, it's very difficult to keep 08:42 those two loves separate, were you successful? 08:46 Yeah, in hindsight probably not as successful as we could 08:50 have been, in hindsight I actually realize now that God's 08:53 purpose in bringing us together is purely for the fact of 08:57 her witnessing to me. 08:59 I don't believe that He had a greater plan beyond that. 09:02 But that's the combination of the story I guess 09:06 we are working our way through. 09:07 Because the title of the program is When Love Is Not 09:10 Enough, and so you begin to think somewhat logically, 09:12 but certainly there must have been some attraction there? 09:15 There is not just a spiritual element, but there is a 09:18 romantic element as well? - Yeah, yeah. 09:20 Something that I don't want to miss there Joshua is 09:23 that you were witness to like that night, that evening, 09:27 and it was that night that you are praying by your 09:30 bedside inviting Jesus into your heart. 09:32 When I hear you say that that's so speaks to me because 09:35 often we think oh you know I witness to someone and told 09:38 them about Jesus, and we think we are planting seeds and 09:42 often times what we take that to mean is that a week or 09:46 two or three, of course this was the culmination but at 09:49 some point someone is going to come in and say the right 09:52 thing and that is the decision. 09:53 The night, the moment of decision. 09:55 Praise the Lord she was faithful - Amen! - Praise God 09:59 she was faithful in that witnessing because that led 10:02 you to your knees. - Yeah! 10:04 I always said to her, as I mention we recognized the 10:08 distinction between the two relationships, we didn't know 10:11 exactly where it was heading, I said to her regardless of 10:15 whether our parts alternately intertwine I will always 10:20 consider it such a great blessing from God that 10:22 you came into my life. 10:24 You are always going to be significant and special 10:27 person in my life. 10:28 Exactly, praise God that she was so faithful in 10:30 witnessing, and I guess it goes to show that you never 10:33 know where you're coming along in someone's journey. 10:36 You never know what stage of that cycle they are at as an 10:40 individual, something singularly insignificant you could 10:44 say may have profound influence on a person. 10:46 - absolutely and I'm sure we've all seen that in our 10:49 own lives, so now you are beginning to talk about the 10:52 relationship in the past tense which leads us to believe 10:55 and our viewers to believe that this is something that 10:58 came to an end. So walk us through that. 11:01 Well early on in our relation- ship and me being a brand-new 11:05 Christian and my default setting having been raised in an 11:08 Adventist home was to gravitate back towards that. 11:13 I started attending church straightaway 11:14 - while you're touring - while I was touring and 11:17 I was seeking out Adventist churches but I was also 11:19 going on Sundays as well. 11:20 That was what I was familiar with and that's what I was 11:23 comfortable with so that is what I tended towards. 11:25 She however was not an Adventist. - so you started to 11:28 see some conflict? - there were some differences and 11:31 even very early on as a new Christian I recognized them and 11:34 I actually for the sake of preserving our relationship, 11:38 I didn't really go too far with what I felt God was 11:41 convicted me of because I knew it would cause a rift or 11:45 a division or a gulf between us that 11:46 I didn't want to be there. 11:49 As a Pastor I see this all the time, when someone has 11:52 fallen in love with the person, or they are going into 11:55 a relationship with someone who is not a believer and 11:58 then they say all he is sweet, or he's kind, 12:00 or she is nice and she's got good values, morals and 12:04 then that person begins to show an interest in spiritual 12:07 things and it is very, very difficult, I mean 12:09 you said looking back you guys didn't succeed 12:11 I don't know if anybody succeeds. 12:13 Keeping those two things, my relationship with God and 12:18 my attraction to this person and this invites, 12:21 this is a recipe for compromise because you don't want 12:24 to have conflict and so you have maybe I can fudge 12:28 here, or maybe this isn't so important and 12:31 it sounds like that is- 12:32 I've seen this to a great extreme and sounds like it is 12:37 what was happening in your experience. 12:38 Yeah and there were little victories along the way 12:41 that made it seem like we were coming in to harmony 12:44 more and more. 12:45 For instance the Sabbath was something I was convicted 12:47 about, and she initially wasn't. 12:50 Then eventually she made a decision with her work 12:54 alternately it would result in her losing her job. 12:57 And she became convicted about the Sabbath as well and 13:00 you look at something like that and the way that God 13:02 brought us together and you think He is working 13:04 and there is a plan here. 13:05 - we'll something we need to just ask, I suppose 13:08 if you are getting into relationship with a person 13:11 who is not a Christian at all it might be easier for us 13:14 to say well you shouldn't be with her, but the very fact 13:17 that she was a Christian, we need to ask 13:19 what is wrong with that? Why can't you just compromise? 13:22 Yeah, I guess that is a good question and a lot of 13:25 people see it that way as long as you share faith in 13:29 Jesus Christ and you like each other and respect each 13:32 other that is enough. 13:34 Love can be enough, I guess that we realized that 13:38 love was not enough. 13:40 As my relationship with God grew, I knew that He was the 13:43 most important thing, at least I wanted Him to be the 13:46 most important thing and I wanted every other aspect of 13:49 my life to fall under the umbrella of God in 13:53 my relationship to God. 13:54 Obviously in terms of relationship, in a serious 13:57 relationship you want that to be firmly rooted on the 14:01 spiritual foundation where we're both in agreement. 14:04 Josh you guys try to harmonize this for as long as 14:06 possible, even to planning your wedding? 14:09 Exactly we ultimately got engaged and we were engaged 14:12 for a year. - that would make a great name for a show, 14:15 Engage, don't you think? 14:17 It could work - it could work. 14:19 Yes so we came to actually within one month of our wedding 14:23 before we realized that we weren't getting any closer. 14:26 I guess there were things that we thought when we decided 14:29 to get married we thought we would go forward in Faith, 14:32 God is leading us closer and as time goes on and we get 14:35 closer to our wedding I'm sure He's going 14:37 to continue that process. 14:38 I think what happened was it got fuzzier and fuzzier as 14:42 the pressure of a wedding date loomed, I guess we just 14:46 felt increasingly distant from one another. 14:49 You said you got to within a month of your wedding, 14:52 so invitations have been sent, plane tickets are booked 14:55 and this is the real deal, not just we are talking about 14:58 getting married but your wedding is planned. 15:00 - ya exactly and it was a pre - Wells probably as planned 15:04 as it could be it was just a very small wedding with 15:07 family, but yeah there was a degree of complication and 15:10 some things that had to be dealt with within that respect 15:13 but at the end of the day you can't go through the 15:15 wedding just because you don't want it to be inconvenient 15:18 for certain people that have made plans around that. 15:20 But how many people do exactly that same thing? 15:22 They have red flags that are indicators that things are not 15:26 going well and they think the wedding will change everything. 15:29 If we could just get married, but I have seen couples 15:33 come into my office all the time, nothing magical happens 15:36 in the wedding ceremony, in fact if anything it will 15:39 actually exasperate, intensify, magnify any issues 15:43 you had before and so yeah, it is difficult to call 15:45 a wedding off a month before the invitations are out, 15:49 but that is very small in terms of difficulty to what 15:52 could've been had you gone through something that God 15:55 just couldn't put His blessing on, and neither of 15:57 you the way you talk about it, it sounds very mutual. 16:00 It was very mutual and I praise the we Lord had the clarity 16:04 that meets all the chaos and confusion, we had the 16:07 clarity of thought to just be strong and say no. 16:10 We each desire to be spiritually united and there was no 16:13 way we could be united in marriage and bring glory to God. 16:16 So when you guys decided not to get married, was that 16:20 the date in the relationship? - no way actually 16:23 separated by degrees, initially remained engaged 16:25 We didn't set a date, got rid of that wedding date. 16:28 - so it wasn't a cancellation it was a postponement? 16:30 Yeah that was initially the idea and then that still 16:33 seemed to be not really working out so we got rid 16:36 of that pressure as well and we weren't engage but still 16:39 in a relationship and eventually we stripped that back to be 16:42 just friends and eventually got to the point we realized 16:45 that our paths were going different directions and it was 16:47 more profitable for each of us to just say goodbye to 16:50 that chapter in our lives and move on. 16:52 Now Josh at any time did you question your faith? 16:54 Did you say I would like to just give this up so I can 16:57 be with this girl? 16:58 No, no and I think that resolve to put God first was 17:06 really the thing that pulled each of us through. 17:08 And where did that lead you then? 17:10 In the fallout from that relationship I ended up, it's 17:14 a funny story actually, a friend of mine, I was on tour 17:17 in Australia with the band and a friend of mine have been 17:22 going to a series of meetings in Sydney and she called 17:26 me up and said hey, come with my friends and I tonight 17:29 we are going to see this intelligent, articulate, 17:31 fast talking American guy. 17:33 It's really powerful. - really they said those words? 17:38 Who could possibly mean? 17:40 Well I turned off at the Sydney entertainment center 17:44 I think it was, and heard David Asscherick speaking. 17:48 It profoundly impacted me, it was a very partial 17:52 presentation and so later on that year I knew - 17:55 did you come just once? - I came twice actually. 17:57 You didn't come and talk to me? No I didn't have time 18:02 because we were doing a show straight after I actually missed 18:04 sound shake and set right through the presentation 18:06 thinking we are on in 20 minutes. 18:08 Were you doing a show in that same venue? 18:11 No it was only a matter blocks away so I managed 18:15 to get back in time and my friend said where are you? 18:18 What's going on? 18:19 There's just a little parenthetical statement here, 18:21 I didn't even know this story until you end up coming to 18:24 Arise, we'll get to in just a second, I think we served 18:27 one another in the foot washing service. - that's right. 18:29 Isn't that right? - yeah. 18:30 So Josh how did you hear about Arise up here in the 18:33 details in this story, you are preaching in Australia and 18:36 that would have been four months at that time. 18:38 So you just never know how these providential 18:41 things are going to arrange. 18:43 So anyway you get the phone call and we're going to go hear 18:45 this guy and - I'm profoundly impacted by that. 18:48 Do you remember what the presentations were? 18:51 It was apologetics, it was Five Reasons Why I Don't Have 18:54 Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. I think that was an 18:58 actually the other seventy-week prophecy, it was just 19:01 beautiful and I just heard God speaking to me. 19:04 And I began listening to a lot of your sermons on audio 19:08 and such and then I knew I was going to be in America 19:11 later on that year so I checked online to see if I can 19:14 find your schedule, maybe you would be speaking some 19:16 where I could go and hear your talk again and I come 19:19 across your Arise website and I really felt 19:21 God leading me there. 19:22 At this stage Laura and I, - just a quick point of 19:26 clarification, Arise for our viewers that don't know 19:30 is a school, a training center that I happen to be the 19:34 director of and Shandra works there as well, 19:37 works as a volunteer so it is a training center. 19:39 Josh gets to the training Center website 19:41 AriseInstitute.com by the way and then what happens? 19:46 Well at this stage Laura and I were just in the final 19:50 trial of trying to cling on to something and I think 19:54 I went there with the intention that perhaps I would be 19:58 able to learn more about these things that I was 20:00 convicted of but still needed to understand better. 20:03 Then I would be able to share them with her and she may 20:05 see things the way I do. 20:07 Why did she want you to go? 20:09 She was probably hoping that I was going to go there 20:11 and learn more about these things and ultimately reject 20:14 some of the things we have been in conflict on. 20:16 The opposite happened, as I got there and started to learn and 20:20 experience that whole faze of my life I really became 20:23 more deeply convicted about it so it became apparent that 20:26 our lives were going opposite directions. 20:28 - very different directions. 20:29 One of the most powerful experiences I had at Arise, 20:32 because initially as you may gather from what I just 20:35 shared I was going to fill my head with knowledge. 20:38 I wanted a intellectual theological understanding and I 20:41 knew that with out reach, with knocking on doors and witnessing 20:43 was part of the deal but I was actually terrified of it. 20:46 I was not cherishing that prospect at all. 20:48 So I go there in spite of this. 20:51 What I found was the most powerful experience actually 20:54 was getting out there knocking on doors. 20:56 I recall one specific incident were I was talking 20:59 to an elderly lady on her doorstep and we have been 21:02 talking for maybe five minutes and I had this feeling 21:04 of overwhelming sense of love for this person whom 21:07 I had met five minutes earlier, and I remember the thought 21:10 crossing my mind I didn't feel anything this powerful 21:14 for a person I was just about to marry. 21:16 This feeling of knowledge? He filled my heart with what love 21:22 really is. - which is the love of God. - Yeah the love of God. 21:28 So you went for intellectual knowledge, or intellectual 21:31 reasons and it ends up with being an experience with 21:35 Ministry, that has come up Shandra over and over again in 21:38 this program that peoples conversions is often directly 21:41 rooted in their ministering to other people. 21:45 So you realize that the love of God is an absolutely 21:49 essential element in your own life, but then later you 21:52 have the opportunity, of course you are realizing this 21:55 that the love of God has to be central to any 21:57 relationship that you might have as well. 21:59 Sort of talk about that a little bit and that will set 22:03 up a song I think you're going to sing. 22:05 I guess what I came to realize about love, and the kind 22:09 of love that has to exist in relationships is that it is 22:12 the love of God. It is God's love. 22:14 Jesus made the statement as I have loved you go and love 22:18 other people. When we look at the way Jesus loved the example 22:20 He set in the Bible, it is a selfless giving love. 22:24 It's love, the kind of love that inspires people into 22:28 Ministry to sharing Jesus with others and I realized that 22:31 I didn't really know what that was about. 22:33 I was loving and a more selfish way on this horizontal 22:35 level but it needed the vertical. 22:37 The love you only have when you got that vertical connection 22:41 with God and I realized to that marriage, the purpose why God 22:44 brings people together is not just so they can live 22:47 happily ever after, is to be obtained to witness and 22:51 share His love with others and I thought to myself how 22:54 could, in the context of the relationship I was in, 22:57 how can we possibly do that when we couldn't even agree 22:59 ourselves on the Spirit foundation. 23:02 Amos 3:3 says can to walk together unless they agree. 23:05 Well we couldn't even agree on the very fundamental 23:08 thing that our relationship needed to be rooted in. 23:11 That is powerful Josh. Then also I was 23:14 contemplating another verse of Scripture, Ecclesiastes 4:12 23:18 where it says threefold cord is not easily broken. 23:21 I was thinking of this in the context of husband and wife 23:23 that is just a twofold cord can be snapped easily. 23:27 But when you put God in there as well, that is a strong 23:31 union and it was on the basis of that, that I was inspired 23:35 to write a song on that theme. 23:37 I wrote it for some friends of mine and I got married 23:39 who were very good examples of that godly 23:41 type of union, godly type of marriage. 23:43 - Amen are you going to sing as that song? 23:46 I am, it's called song for Sam and Katie. 23:48 I can't wait I love this song. 23:50 Even though it is specifically for them it is for all 23:52 Christian people who are planning on marriage. 23:55 This is the key ingredient in God's love. 24:08 Follow your heart is what they say 24:10 I know that if I do 24:12 I've been following something I can't know 24:16 deceitful and a untrue 24:19 I couldn't love you if I tried 24:21 couldn't find a way 24:24 unless my heart is led by God I only go astray. 24:31 If you want to be one heart one flesh 24:34 one instead of two 24:36 it's got the three chords woven, God and me and you. 24:42 If our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes 24:47 only then can we say I love you. 24:54 God is love He gives to us a priceless gift that real 24:59 He gave Himself He gave His own unconditionally 25:04 I want to love you like He does Lord, give me eyes to see. 25:10 The only way I can is if You live inside of me. 25:16 We wanna be one heart, one flesh, one instead of two. 25:22 It's got to be three chords woven, God and me and you. 25:28 If our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes 25:33 only then can we say I love you. 25:42 Well love this kind, love never fails 25:44 it ain't boastful or proud or rude 25:46 it bears all things, believes all things 25:49 rejoices in the truth 25:52 love will never seek her own, loves patient, love endures 25:57 if we want a love like that it's what we'll have to do 26:02 if you want to be one heart one flesh 26:07 one instead of two 26:10 it's got to be three chords woven, God me and you 26:15 if our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes 26:21 only then can we say I love you 26:26 because the love of God is the only love, 26:29 the only love that's true 26:31 the love of God is the only love, 26:34 the only love that's true 26:37 the love of God is the only love, 26:40 the only love that's true 26:43 the love of God is the only love that's true 26:47 it's a love that binds us, binds us tightly, 26:52 is stronger than the grave 26:54 God has joined together now, let no one separate 26:59 this love is forever, it's for eternity 27:04 is the wellspring of our love 27:07 it is the one who is and was and will be 27:17 and if we want to be one heart one flesh 27:20 one instead of two 27:22 there's got to be three chords woven, God and me and you 27:28 if our hearts burn within us with a fire that consumes 27:34 only then can we say I love you 27:39 because the love of God is the only love that's true 27:44 and I love you with a love that's true 27:56 - Amen! - Amen thank you so much 27:57 Josh that was absolutely beautiful. 27:59 And thank you for joining us today. |
Revised 2014-12-17