Participants: Jay Rosario & Daniel McGrath (Host), Ezequiel Vasquez
Series Code: E
Program Code: E000016
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00:17 Hello again my name is Jay Rosario
00:18 and welcome to "Engage." 00:20 In this show we're gonna attempt to address 00:22 some of the most relevant issues facing young people 00:25 who are striving to have a successful Christian life. 00:28 And today we have an exciting discussion 00:30 and I want you to introduce those that are here. 00:32 We have Ezekiel and my good friend Dan. 00:34 Hey, Jay--Dan, tell us a little bit about yourself? 00:36 Well, my name is Daniel McGrath, 00:38 I am living in the Upper Peninsula now 00:40 and pasturing churches there and that it's good to be here. 00:42 We also have a friend Ezequiel who's joining us today. 00:45 And Ezequiel just maybe tell us little bit about yourself? 00:49 Well, I was raised in California 00:51 and I'm associate pastor in Birmingham right now. 00:53 So that's from where I'm at. 00:54 All right well, reason why Ezequiel is here today 00:57 is because we're we attempting to address one of the issue 01:01 that young people face which is Atheism. 01:04 This is something that many people find a challenge 01:07 in their life either dealing with atheist 01:10 or having questions themselves about the existence of God. 01:13 And so we are glad that you're here today, 01:14 we're glad that you know, you have an experience, 01:17 you have the testimony that you can share with us 01:19 some of the other young viewers watching today. 01:22 Now, Ezequiel, you know, when we think of the subject of Atheism, 01:25 why is it that we as Christians maybe I'm speaking of myself. 01:29 Why is that we tend to be so intimidated by Atheism, 01:34 the subject or even atheist? 01:36 Literally when we as Christians 01:37 we find person who is an atheist we feel intimated. 01:41 Why in your experience, 01:42 why do you suppose this is a case? 01:43 Well, it's a world view, this is totally different 01:45 from something that we're used to. 01:47 I think a lot of the time intimidation comes from 01:49 not being familiar with the situation. 01:52 I think a lot of times we also don't listen to atheists 01:54 and we think that we need to tell them 01:55 what they need to believe. 01:57 And I mean a lot of what Jesus did was listen to people. 02:00 You know, talk to people and listen to people 02:02 and understand what they're coming from. 02:03 And when you listen 02:05 you use a same letters that spelt silent. 02:07 So it's important to be quite just to listen to him. 02:09 So in other words part of the main reason 02:11 what you're suggesting that Atheism is so intimidating 02:13 is just because we're so unfamiliar with it-- 02:15 And the reason why we aren't familiar with this, 02:16 just because we don't listen to what they're proposing. 02:19 Now, Ezequiel, tell us a little bit about yourself, 02:23 how did, how did you kind of get into Atheism. 02:26 Where you raised in a Christian home? 02:27 Tell us about your childhood? 02:28 Well, you know, I'm Mexican, so if you know anything about 02:31 the Mexican cultures that you're normally not raised atheist. 02:35 I mean, most of Mexico is Catholic. 02:36 Yeah. Yeah. 02:38 So I was raised in a Catholic home, 02:40 but ironically enough my dad was not really a Catholic. 02:44 Growing up he would always say, 02:46 "Yeah, you should believe the Bible, 02:47 but you should only believe about 10 % of it. 02:50 So you know, it was an interesting dynamic. 02:51 My Mom was more devote Catholic, 02:54 but things start to change in a little bit 02:55 whenever they separated. 02:56 They separated when I was really young. 02:58 My mom didn't go to churches often, 02:59 at least not from what I remember. 03:01 But so religion wasn't a huge part of my life, 03:04 it was just something that 03:05 was kind of like a visage of culture that I was raised. 03:09 So did it bring any, did it bring confusion to you 03:11 being that your father was not very devotes 03:14 and your mother was? 03:15 Did you kind of-how do you relate to that? 03:17 Yes and no. 03:19 Yes, because I heard all the questions 03:21 that my dad would ask in. 03:22 You know because he left when I was so young 03:24 but yeah, those questions really resonated with me. 03:26 You know, he asked really good questions 03:27 and they were meaningful questions. 03:29 But I didn't really get answers from him. 03:31 So when did you fully identified yourself as an atheist 03:36 and how old where you and what led up to that experience? 03:39 Well, I think the transition happened first 03:42 with my nonreligious background persuade, 03:45 because we didn't go to church too often. 03:48 But then at the age of like 12 or 13 03:50 my mom started getting really into a church. 03:52 It was a strange little church down the street, 03:55 Seventh-day Adventist, you know. 03:57 And they would have these interesting potlucks with 04:00 the different types of food and-- 04:01 How old are you around this time? 04:03 You know, I think she started attending 04:05 when I was about 10 or so when-- 04:07 But she really got into when I was about 12, 12 years old. 04:11 And reason I thought it was interesting was just because 04:13 there was--I mean a little bit of the social group. 04:15 So when I went to church 04:16 I went for all the wrong reasons, you know. 04:18 I went because they played games. 04:19 They took us out to like theme parks and stuff like that. 04:22 But it wasn't necessarily something that I was 04:25 necessarily committed to, because I mean at the age of 12 04:28 I was already doing things like partying and stuff like that, 04:31 so it was definitely interesting situation. 04:33 So then you just kind of attended church 04:35 to accompany your mother-- 04:37 obviously at a young age, you didn't really know 04:38 what was it about? You were just going 04:40 for social reasons etcetera. 04:42 And when did you decide, yeah this thing, 04:44 this Christianity thing is not really for me? 04:47 I identify myself a little bit better with Atheism. 04:49 Yeah, what actually happened as I was telling you 04:51 the journey of when I started getting introduced to Adventism 04:55 was amongst this group, it was a youth group? 04:59 And I remember sitting down and everyone behaved as long as 05:02 the teacher was in the room, but as soon as he walked out 05:04 they talked about all the worldly stuff 05:06 that I talked about with my friends. 05:08 So it, it really confused me. 05:09 I thought to myself if they've been in this so long 05:12 then maybe they know something about this that I don't know. 05:15 So I thought to myself, am I missing something here. 05:18 But then I backed off and I kind of become resentful, 05:20 you know. I thought of myself 05:22 is this all there is to it, 05:23 just a bunch of hypocrisy. 05:25 But, you know, 05:26 it made me think about this passage 05:27 in the Bible in Mathew 6. 05:30 Jesus had a deal with hypocrisy also. 05:32 He had to talk about the hypocrisy of the Pharisees 05:35 and there's three specific instances in Mathew 6, 05:39 Mathew 6:2 is the first verse I'm gonna read, 05:42 its says this, "Therefore when you do a charitable deed 05:47 do not sound the trumpet before as a hypocrites do 05:51 in the synagogues and in the streets, 05:53 that they may have glory of men." 05:55 Now it's interesting because Jesus says, 05:56 okay this is what the hypocrites do, 05:58 but don't do this. 06:00 And then verse five He goes on and says this, 06:03 "And when you pray, you should not be like the hypocrites, 06:05 for they love to pray standing in the synagogues 06:08 on the corners of the street that they may be seen by men. 06:11 Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward." 06:14 Again He say, listen don't try to be overly religious 06:17 just for the sake of other people seeing you, 06:18 this is a hypocritical. 06:21 And then He goes on again to same verse 16 06:23 that the hypocrites do this, they say, they're fast 06:26 and they try to make themselves seem religious. 06:27 Now it's interesting because Jesus is saying 06:29 hypocrisy is not a reason not to be religious. 06:32 You know, there is a famous French historian that said 06:36 hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. 06:41 So when we see hypocrisy 06:43 suddenly we used to walk away from the religion. 06:45 We're actually acknowledging that there is something good 06:47 in it that should be lived out. 06:49 We should be the example and may be living it out. 06:51 I think that's a challenge from Jesus in these messages 06:53 specifically these three verses when He talks about hypocrites. 06:56 Well, when you say the hypocrisy in your class, in your school, 07:00 what did that do to you? 07:02 Well, you know, 07:03 I definitely wasn't one that took the high road. 07:06 I decided to just back out and just not be a part of that. 07:09 As a matter of fact, by the time I got into high school 07:12 I declared myself a full blown atheist. 07:15 A lot of my friends were still Christians, 07:18 and they always kind of joke around, 07:20 you know, oh yeah, Ezequiel the atheist, 07:22 and they would always bust jokes on that. 07:24 But I was the only atheist amongst my group, 07:27 but I thought I was completely convinced that God 07:29 did not exist, at least at that time. 07:32 So then, when you had this kind of epiphany 07:35 when you saw the hypocrisy in the church, 07:36 it kind of turned you out, you're like ah, 07:38 this is not really something genuine, something authentic. 07:41 How, how did your mother relate to that situation? 07:46 That was tough. 07:48 My mom would argue with me 07:50 'cause she would try to drag me to go to church. 07:51 This was more so towards the mid-teens, 07:54 later teens years in my life. 07:56 She would try to pull me, read Bible verses to me 07:59 and I would ask her, 08:00 mom I'll go to church 08:02 if you could prove to me that God exists. 08:04 And I mean, I feel ashamed that some of the situations 08:07 we'd get into 'cause we'd argue back and forth 08:09 and my mom, you know, 08:10 would just cry and say you know, I'm praying for you son, 08:12 I hope that you come around, I hope you come around. 08:14 And she will quote Bible verses to me and, 08:16 you know, at that time they didn't do anything to me 08:18 but I will say that the prayers of my mom 08:21 throughout those substantial years 08:22 really made a difference in the end. 08:25 So it doesn't matter what situation 08:28 us young people can find ourselves in, 08:30 whether its intellectual complexities 08:32 or whether it's addictions, the prayers of the mother, 08:35 the prayers of the parent or grandmother 08:37 goes a long way through. Oh, yeah it's totally important. 08:40 I think it's essential, in order for anything to happen, 08:42 specially the battles of spiritual battle. 08:44 You can't fight it just through ideas. 08:46 So, so, Ezequiel, what were those principles in Atheism that 08:50 that were probably the most convincing for you? 08:53 Atheism, obviously is a very complex worldview. 08:56 There's a lot of thing that it proposes but 08:58 what were maybe one, or two, or three 08:59 of the big reasons why you said no, 09:03 this is what make sense. 09:04 Life makes a lot more sense, this principle over this idea. 09:08 What were one or two or three of those? 09:10 Well, I think if I really, really think about it, 09:12 I could definitely pullout three hurdles 09:13 that I dealt within in my own Atheism. 09:16 The first was a problem with evil and suffering. 09:19 I mean that's a problem for even Christians. 09:21 But I remember, you know, just reading the book of Job 09:24 and I was just unsettled in my own heart. 09:27 There is actually three specific experiences 09:30 after I had read Job, 09:31 I remember back and often think, 09:33 you know, I don't want anything do with religion. 09:35 But these three experiences that I had really 09:37 challenged my experience with religion. 09:40 I thought that in order for me to be a man 09:42 I need to move out when I was 17 years old. 09:44 So I moved into an apartment 09:45 in it have been in Ceres, California. 09:47 All by yourself? Well, I had a roommate, 09:50 but you know he was 18 and I was 17. 09:52 But we lived by the beach, 09:54 so life was good-at least we thought so. 09:56 And there was a guy upstairs they had turrets 09:59 and you guys know what turrets is, right? 10:00 He--I remember when I would walk by him 10:02 and like on the sidewalk 10:05 he would cuss me out and but you know, 10:06 obviously you can't take offences 10:08 someone has a disease like this. 10:10 What ended happening is before I was gonna go to bed 10:13 I had the room right underneath his. 10:16 And he said something that send chills down my spine. 10:19 At night right before I was gonna go to bed 10:21 can you imagine going to sleep to these thoughts. 10:23 I hate my life, I hate my life 10:24 it stinks I am lonely, I am sad. 10:26 Their's no one that loves me, he would just screamed 10:28 that all over and over and over again. 10:29 And I try to ignore and I thought of myself 10:31 maybe if I go talk to him 10:33 and I thought of so to myself 10:35 what am I gonna can say to this guy. 10:37 To be honest I don't even really wanna talk to him. 10:39 I don't wanna feel miserable like he does. 10:41 And to be honest I don't even really care of helping him. 10:43 But I started asking myself the questions. 10:46 So how am I kind a make sure that I don't end up like him. 10:49 You know, how am I not gonna end up lonely 10:51 and sad and just miserable. 10:54 That hassle really got me questioning. 10:56 And at the same time there's a homeless guy 10:58 down the same road whenever I, 10:59 I worked at the Halloween shop down there. 11:01 And I walked down main street. 11:03 And the cops were really, really harsh on homeless people. 11:07 And one time there's a homeless guy I was walking by 11:09 and he, you know, his face is all worn out 11:11 and he looked at me and said 11:12 every time I walk through here the cops kick me out. 11:15 And he says they don't understand 11:16 that I am a person too. 11:18 And he looked at me 11:19 and I remember seeing so much pain in his eyes 11:22 and I thought to myself-- 11:23 man like stinks what can I do to help him 11:26 and again I saw suffering and I could not explain it. 11:29 You know, I could push away the book of Job 11:30 and I could push away the concept of God and suffering, 11:33 but ultimately suffering was a very real thing 11:35 and it was in my face. 11:37 So that's very interesting because you're saying that 11:39 it wasn't something external that made you. 11:42 You know, question it was the introspection 11:43 that you did inside after you saw these things 11:46 that really started getting you to think about God. 11:48 Yeah, I think that's a, that's a good way to put in 11:50 introspection really got me to reflect 11:53 on why I didn't believe of what I believed and, 11:55 and what were some of the hurdles that 11:57 were definitely keeping me from believing. 12:00 Now this is, this is good because I think a lot of times 12:03 Adventist especially misunderstand atheist or atheism 12:07 because we tend to stay in our own little bubbles 12:10 and we don't really know many atheists. 12:12 Yeah, I went to a public university 12:13 so I've been confronted with this. 12:15 But how is it that an atheist comes to understand the Bible 12:21 and into a relationship with Jesus. 12:23 And I think you, you know, you say that introspection 12:25 and personal thought is a big thing 12:28 and so I appreciate you bringing that out. 12:30 Yeah. So, Ezequiel, what happen next? 12:32 So you have this introspection. 12:34 You had this kind of hunting voices. 12:36 We want to say like that, that were kind of tormenting you. 12:38 Definitely haunting what what's, what was the next stage 12:41 How did that introspection become a kind of reconsideration 12:46 of maybe the existence of God? 12:48 What I mean more open minded that was an immediate 12:51 conversion experience but it did make me more open mind 12:53 into the potential of God actually existing. 12:55 Because you know at this point 12:57 I wondered where I came from, 12:59 where I found meaning and where I found hope. 13:01 So I was more open to God 13:03 not necessarily specifically Christianity. 13:05 I just wanted to be open to anything. 13:08 But at this point I got to my second hurdle. 13:11 My second hurdle was a fact that 13:14 I had never experienced God. 13:15 I never had an experiential--a experience 13:18 with the divine Creator and 13:21 what ended up happening is 13:23 actually it's a really interesting story. 13:25 I always hesitate as to how I should tell the story. 13:28 But my Mom wanted me to go to a Christian school. 13:32 So I decided to signup for one an Adventist school. 13:35 So I got a phone call and someone asked me to go 13:38 coopering and I thought myself wait, 13:40 they don't know that I am an atheist. 13:41 Now what's coopering for the viewers? 13:42 Becuase I have no idea what you're talking about. 13:43 Well, coopering is where you go around door to door 13:46 selling mega books, these yeah-- Okay, so literature evangelism-- 13:50 Literature evangelism exactly and they give you 13:52 scholarship they match whatever you make 13:54 and it helps you go to school, right. 13:55 So I thought to myself wow, 13:56 this sounds like a great opportunity 13:57 even though I'm an atheist I thought myself 13:59 maybe I'm a good salesman. 14:00 You know, hang on, hang on a second, 14:01 so you are university atheist young person. Yeah. 14:03 You are a full blown atheist and you're considering 14:06 whether or not to get involved in literature evangelism? 14:08 Yes, You know, I mean, 14:10 God works in mysterious ways, right. 14:11 So what happen so you signup and you go. 14:13 Yeah, so I signup and its interesting because 14:16 I thought of myself man this would be 14:18 quite an experience, you know, 14:19 talk about religion when I don't ultimately believe in it. 14:22 Well, I mean, it was definitely harder than I thought. 14:25 You know, you never really fact as an atheist. 14:27 I never really fact the spiritual aspect 14:28 of literature evangelism I just thought it was 14:31 a business transaction a sale that I can make 14:34 and it wasn't that easy. 14:35 I definitely gone to some difficult situations. 14:37 But I think that there was specific experiences 14:40 that really got me to be open to God 14:43 and by the end of the summer 14:44 I was committed to Jesus, 14:46 because of what I had experience. 14:48 I'll tell a little bit about my experiences. 14:50 My first experience was when I was talking to someone 14:53 and I said well, 14:54 I like to have an experience while praying something happens. 14:57 So I prayed in a car and as soon as I walked out 15:00 and knock on the door, this lady opens the door and says 15:03 "Are you the Seventh-day Adventist?" 15:04 And usually if you ever been door to door, 15:06 that's not a good thing. Right. 15:08 If they ask you if you are Seventh-day Adventist 15:10 that usually means get out of my face, 15:11 get out of my porch right. 15:13 And I was hesitant, I was like ah, ah, 15:15 and I was like what were the big blue books. 15:17 You know, I showed them the page and she was like 15:19 no, no, no are you, do you attend 15:21 a Seventh-day Adventist Church and I said yes ma'am. 15:23 Specifically I am a Seventh-day Adventist 15:25 that's the church that I go to. 15:26 And she says good I've been having 15:28 questions about the Sabbath 15:30 and we just started having this interactions, 15:32 she says actually I just read about the Sabbath 15:35 I've been talking to my pastor 15:36 and just as you were knocking on my door 15:38 I was on my knees praying, 15:40 that God would help me understand the Sabbath 15:42 in the better way and here you are. 15:44 And it was amazing I thought of myself wow, 15:46 this is kind of an interesting experience. 15:48 So you're knocking on her door 15:51 still kind of atheist in your mind. 15:53 Yeah, but I said a prayer. 15:54 Helping this woman to understand the Sabbath. 15:55 Yeah, exactly. 15:56 And because your mother was the Seventh-day Adventist 15:58 you kind of identify yourself as an Adventist-- 16:00 Well, I knew-- Kind of identify yourself 16:01 as an atheist, kind of as well. 16:02 Yeah, I had a book that talked about the Sabbath, 16:04 so I thought of myself I mean that's a start, right. 16:06 So I pulled off the book and I started going over 16:08 God's answers to your questions, right and you know, 16:11 we looked at the Sabbath part and I said 16:13 this would be a book that will really interest her. 16:15 We actually signed her up for Bible studies 16:17 and I mean from that point I mean 16:20 time after, time after, time I don't think a week went by 16:23 where I didn't have the tupendous like experience 16:25 with someone like, well, I knew God was leading. 16:28 There was another experience with this guy was 16:30 he got so upset at me when I was trying to canvas him 16:33 that he literally was gonna fight. 16:35 Yeah, I remember seen him clutch his fist 16:37 and saw walking towards me 16:39 and as he clutch his fist, 16:40 I remember saying in my head God if you real, 16:43 its time to do something 'cause I don't want to get into a fight 16:45 in the street, you know. 16:46 Well, he dropped his keys I remember picking up the keys 16:48 and I was praying out I felt impressed and God said 16:51 pickup his keys and just give him back to his hand 16:53 and just walk away. 16:54 So I grabbed the keys put back in his hand 16:56 and I'm walking away. 16:57 I feel the strong impression 16:58 at this point I don't really know what it is. 17:00 As I'm walking away the guy says 17:03 I don't know what went over me. 17:05 I'm really sorry but God is working through you, 17:07 God is working through you and at this point 17:08 remember I'm an atheist. 17:10 I was like what God is working through me 17:13 and I think my favorite experience was when there was 17:17 a group of gangsters there's about eight, or twelve 17:20 I don't remember their exact number. 17:21 But they would sit on the corner and when I walked up to them 17:24 at first I thought they were gonna jump to me. 17:26 They had this, this mean mug looking face 17:28 and it look like they wanted, 17:31 they don't want any books they wanted something else. 17:33 You know- But you're pretty tall guy-- 17:34 I'm a pretty tall guy but-- 17:35 I'm in trouble, then I would be in trouble. 17:37 You're sitting down and Jay is standing up very high. 17:39 If I, if I ever go-- Yeah, I know it's true. 17:41 If I ever go door to door I wanna to be right 17:42 by your sides like David and Goliath. 17:44 So what happened, what happened to this? 17:45 But if there's eight guys there's not much you could do, 17:47 you know, but what ended up happening is I actually 17:49 started interacting with these guys. 17:50 And at first they started making fun of me 17:52 they said oh, look at this guy you know, 17:53 he is trying to speak all proper, 17:55 I remember them mocking me about that. 17:57 And I started getting frustrated 17:59 but what ended up happening at this point is that 18:01 I started interacting with one of them 18:03 to the point where I signed him up for Bible studies. 18:07 And he started crying hugging me 18:09 and the end of that experience I got 18:11 all of them to signup for Bible studies 18:13 they began knocking me and at the end of that experience 18:17 they were all signed up for Bible studies, 18:18 'cause at this point I was so open to God, 18:20 I remember praying 18:21 and experiencing very real way. 18:23 Wow. Amen, that's powerful. Praise God. 18:24 Well, so, so number one you, you definitely had some, 18:28 some heavy introspection going on, 18:30 number two you had no 18:31 real experiential knowledge of God. 18:33 So through these experiences what he was telling us 18:36 is that God kind of let you know that He was there, 18:38 that He was answering your prayers. Yeah. 18:40 But there is also, 18:41 there is also has to be another component, 18:43 because from your time at university, 18:45 you know, from 13 onward you had some real 18:49 solid intellectual arguments 18:51 that went right against the existence of God. 18:53 So what kind of intellectual hurdles 18:55 did you have to overcome for that? 18:57 Well, the intellectual hurdles were really, 19:00 is there any evidence for the existence of God in general 19:03 you know, 'cause although I had experience, 19:04 and although I had come to terms with, with evil 19:07 and how evil was real and how the way 19:09 that Bible portrayed evil seems to be pretty accurate 19:12 to the way we experience in the world. 19:15 I still needed intellectual, the intellectual hurdle 19:19 'cause you know, that I, I never heard a real good argument 19:22 at this point for the existence of God. 19:24 You know, I had read things in the Bible 19:25 that seem to be true and real. 19:27 And at this point I was a Christian, 19:28 but I still had this dark cloud dooming over me 19:31 where I kept asking myself, 19:33 but what about the truth you know. 19:36 Well, I went to GYC back in 2004 19:40 when it was San Jose, your hometown-- 19:42 Now, what is GYC for those who don't know what GYC? 19:43 GYC is a Generation of Youth for Christ. 19:46 At this point I was-were actually been converted so-- 19:49 This is an event, this is a program. 19:50 It's a Youth event yeah, 19:52 thousands of young people get together 19:53 and well, this is where I had my first real experience 19:57 with anything that talked about Christianity 19:59 within an intellectuals fear. 20:01 Right 'cause you--with some that you did 20:03 the literature evangelism it was more an experiential-- 20:07 Kind of a thing, but you still had confusion 20:09 and complexities in your mind 20:10 so at GYC, what happened at GYC? 20:12 Well at GYC I looked at the workshops that were going on 20:17 and I saw this one particular workshop. 20:19 It looks like the apologetics. 20:21 And I thought it was a yard of apologizing 20:23 and at this point, at this point 20:25 I was very, very young in my Christian experience. 20:28 And I had wronged the lot of people. 20:30 And I thought of myself man I really need to apologize 20:32 to a lot of people I need to go to the seminar 20:34 in order for me to learn-- 20:36 So you went to the apologetic seminar thinking 20:38 that it was a seminar that taught you 20:40 how to apologize if you were. 20:42 That makes sense, I mean we could all benefit 20:44 from seminar apologizing-- 20:46 Yeah, apologizing especially after I just got converted 20:48 because I had wrong people like I said. 20:49 So then what is apologetic, 20:50 when you got there what did you learn? 20:52 Well, apologetics is actually a field in theology 20:56 and it stands for apologia in the Greek 20:58 it means actual, 'defense.' 21:00 It's a defense of the Gospel, defense of Christianity, 21:02 defense of God in general. 21:04 So it's defending the faith against all the accusation 21:07 and the attacks and arguments that are presented to it. 21:10 The way I had to define before is how to communicate 21:15 accurately the faith through a secular perspective. 21:18 So I mean, I mean, it covers so many different realms, 21:21 but yeah, that's basically. 21:22 So I attended one of those seminars 21:24 and I thought of myself this is apologetics, 21:25 it feel great I'm loving, you know. 21:27 For the first time I had to heard arguments 21:28 for the existence of God. 21:30 And I started looking for classes 21:32 and I realize that my particular 21:34 Adventist University didn't teach any courses in apologetics 21:37 and I was kind of bummed out. 21:39 But I saw that there was a school out in Michigan, 21:44 out almost in, in the Detroit area at that point 21:48 call the ARISE I was bummed out 'cause it wasn't credited. 21:51 Now what is the ARISE, what was that, what is that? 21:53 ARISE is a Resource Institute for Soul Winning Evangelism 21:56 is a four months crash course on Christianity. 21:58 So its four month, its not-- How to evangelize, yeah-- 22:00 It's not a four year thing, only four months. 22:02 Yeah, it was only four months and to be I mean, 22:05 particularly honest I just went 22:07 because I wanted the apologetic course. 22:09 So I started talking to people on the phone 22:11 you know, I got signed up for school 22:12 and I ended up going to the school 22:14 just for the apologetic course. 22:16 But I mean, I got so much more, 22:17 but I couldn't find any other courses 22:20 in any other Adventist institution 22:21 that talked about apologetics 22:22 so that's what drew me there specifically. 22:25 So from the, from the apologetics course 22:28 you kind of solidified in your own mind 22:29 that the arguments are there that God exist. 22:33 So you had, you had the experiential part down 22:35 and now you match that with you know, the knowledge base. 22:39 What can you tell somebody 22:41 who's trying to reach out to an atheist 22:43 and how do you reach your atheist friends. 22:46 You know, like I said in the very beginning 22:47 the best thing you could do is listen to them, 22:50 because lot of times people are atheist for different reasons. 22:53 You know, I know a physiologist, Dr. Paul Vitz, 22:56 actually talks about the lot of people are atheist, 22:58 because they had influence of their fathers. 22:59 He actually has strong documentation for this 23:01 in his book Faith of the Fatherless. 23:04 But usually you really have to listen to 23:06 what they struggling with 23:07 and then deal with it at that point 23:09 because ultimately I think what happens a lot of times 23:11 is that atheists and Christians 23:13 talk over each others heads 23:14 and don't necessarily even sit down and try to listen-- 23:16 Like they're speaking two different languages. 23:18 Yeah, exactly. Right. 23:19 And they just kind spin the wheels and they get nowhere. 23:21 So what about for maybe not how to reach an atheist, 23:25 but what about a young adult 23:27 maybe raised in a Christian church 23:29 who is tempted with the idea of maybe going 23:33 towards the road of Atheism doubting the existence of God. 23:36 What message would you give to young person 23:39 watching this program has entertaining those thoughts 23:41 in may be 30 seconds? 23:42 What would you tell a young person? 23:44 Well, you know Mathew 22 verse 37 talks about 23:49 loving God with all your heart, your mind, and your soul. 23:52 We usually include our heart and our soul, 23:55 we usually exclude our mind. 23:57 For someone that's struggling with that 24:00 you could read on the issue, there's so much, 24:02 so much out there, 24:03 that could really help you and benefit you in those situations. 24:06 I mean there's plenty of books, I could recommend 24:08 the first one I recommend is 24:09 5 Minute Apologist by Rick Cornish. 24:11 What's the title again? Amazing, 5 Minute Apologist. 24:14 5 Minute Apologist. By Rick Cornish 24:15 is a very simple down to earth apologetic-- 24:17 Sounds like it's written for busy people too, 24:19 5 Minute Apologist. Yeah, 24:20 it's only like every argument has one or two pages, 24:22 very simple to understand and its amazing. 24:24 You know, I recommend that book for starters 24:27 for those that are questioning in. 24:28 for those You know, I really looking for answers 24:30 special intellectual answers. Awesome. 24:32 Well, I think in this program we've definitely seen that 24:35 you know, when we bumped into atheist, 24:37 it doesn't mean that they're unreachable, 24:39 I think, Ezequiel, you are prime example of the power 24:42 of the Gospel and that sometimes it takes time--Yeah. 24:45 Obviously you had to go through your three hurdles. 24:47 Sometimes as Christians, we want, we want atheist 24:50 to maybe we convert him right now, 24:52 maybe in a weeks time but sometimes 24:54 people have to go through experience such as you did. 24:56 And I think its critical for us to remember that as Christians. 24:59 But the journey is very, very important. 25:00 Right, it involves the mind, it involves the heart 25:03 and it involves many, many different things. 25:05 What do you think, 25:07 what should we say if an Atheism 25:09 challenges us as Adventist, 25:11 or an atheist challenges us as Adventist? 25:13 You know, does God really exist prove to me that He exist, 25:16 what can we tell them? 25:17 I mean, one of the geniuses think, 25:20 one of the things that, 25:21 that did that Jesus did was absolutely genius 25:23 was the fact that He asked questions 25:25 whenever He was posed the question. 25:27 So I usually would shoot right back out them and say 25:29 why don't you believe God exist. 25:32 And based on that response you will actually know 25:35 how to respond to it. 25:36 'Cause I mean, they could say there's no evidence 25:38 or it because of evil or because my dad was Christian 25:41 and he beat me, you know, I mean, 25:43 it all depends on where they are at 25:45 and its hard to just say this is the blanket silver bullet 25:48 answer from that all atheist. 25:49 Just like every other person, everyone's had 25:52 different experiences you have to really listen, so-- 25:55 Yeah, so that make sense-sometimes we want to fit 25:58 everybody into one size. Yeah. 25:59 But the reality is just like there's different strands 26:02 of Christians, there's different strands of atheists 26:04 from what it sounds like. 26:06 It sounds like some atheist, are atheist 26:08 because of emotional reasons, 26:10 because of experiential reasons in church 26:11 like you mentioned in the beginning 26:13 were you were exposed to hypocrisy. 26:15 Others maybe for academic intellectual reasons, 26:18 maybe they have questions inside their hearts 26:20 that they just haven't found 26:23 the right individual who has probably led them 26:26 in the right direction to find answers. 26:28 So I just, I'm really excited of the fact that 26:31 a young person like you went from Atheism to Adventism 26:36 to Christianity and that just encourage me that 26:38 just because somebody is an atheist, 26:40 it doesn't mean that there is, there isn't any hope for him. 26:43 So, Ezequiel, we just wanna thank you for coming 26:45 and sharing your experience and I think this is a message 26:48 of kind of encouragement to those maybe who are in 26:53 the doubting experience and maybe those who are trying 26:56 to reach out to the atheistic friends 26:58 and find it very frustrating. 26:59 So I just thank you for just coming 27:01 and sharing your experience 27:02 with each and every one of us. 27:04 And hopefully those that have been watching 27:05 have been encouraged that just because 27:08 friend or maybe your coworker 27:10 and maybe even a family member is, 27:12 has declared themselves an atheist 27:14 it doesn't mean that they're not possible to reach. 27:18 And I think most of the time when we think about reaching 27:20 atheist, we always think about having the right answer. 27:23 But sometimes its more than just words 27:25 sometimes it has be something in your life. 27:27 They have to see it something different, 27:29 they have to be attracted 27:31 and see that you have something that they do not have. 27:34 And also for that young person that maybe 27:36 born and raise in a church someone like kind of what, 27:39 like Ezequiel was who's entertaining thoughts of Atheism 27:42 we want to encourage you that Christianity has answers 27:45 that the Bible has intellectual reasons 27:47 as to why you can believe in God. 27:49 Believing in God doesn't have to be just an emotional 27:52 exercise it could be an intellectual discipline. 27:55 So thank you for tuning in. 27:56 God bless you, till next time. |
Revised 2014-12-17