Participants: Jay Rosario & Daniel McGrath (Host), Ezequiel Vasquez
Series Code: E
Program Code: E000023
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00:17 Hello again, my name is Jay Rosario
00:19 and welcome to Engage. 00:21 In this show, we are going to address the relevant 00:24 and sometimes controversial subjects 00:26 that are facing young Christians all over the world. 00:28 Joining us today is my good friend Dan McGrath, 00:30 who is actually our co-host 00:32 and our guest today is Ezequiel. 00:33 And for those of you that don't know you Dan, 00:35 now tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:37 Well, Jay, I have been your friend for a long time. 00:39 It has been for a while, hasn't it? 00:40 Yes, it's been for a while, 00:41 that's a good thing I guess. Yeah, that's a good thing. 00:43 And I also pastor in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, 00:46 and today we have our friend Ezequiel with us. 00:49 And why don't you tell something about yourself? 00:51 My name is Ezequiel, 00:52 I am an associate pastor in Birmingham, 00:54 Alabama and I am actually originally from California 00:57 though but I am in the south now. 00:59 Still enjoying the heat, aha. 01:01 Well, yeah, I mean humidity. Well, I think humidity. 01:03 Yeah, because I was in Central California, 01:05 where it gets like 110, but its dry heat. 01:07 That's where I lived, up in that area. All right. 01:09 Well, we are glad that you are back here with us, 01:11 you've joined us for an episode. 01:13 Today we are gonna continue our conversation on atheism. 01:16 There are a lot of people that have questions 01:19 about what they believe 01:20 and we heard our testimony 01:22 about Ezequiel's experience with atheism. 01:24 But now we want to get more into the actual arguments, 01:28 the apologetics, the philosophy 01:29 behind how to reach an atheist. 01:31 And what to do when they challenge us with questions? 01:34 And so we're glad to have you back here. 01:36 We're glad that we can begin again 01:37 and just why don't we let Jay, 01:40 why don't you start us off today. 01:41 Well, Ezequiel you know, like I said 01:43 before atheism is a very intimidating subject. 01:47 Yeah. And I think it was very, 01:48 why we mentioned that its probably intimidating 01:49 because maybe we haven't explored it, 01:53 maybe we haven't listened to atheists, 01:55 and listen to their questions, listen to their rebel etc. 01:58 But for those who may be are not 02:00 fully familiar with atheism. 02:02 How, what is atheism? 02:04 And how do we define 02:06 and how would you define atheism? 02:08 Well, I define atheism as a world view. 02:10 What is a world view? Maybe a lack in the world view. 02:12 World view is a prospect that you have on life in general 02:15 and world view is way we're arching 02:17 more than just a couple of answers 02:19 is what defines all the answers 02:22 that you are gonna have about life. 02:24 For it's a perspective. It's a perspective, yes. 02:26 It's the view of the world we can say. 02:27 Exactly, it's... World view. 02:29 Its like glasses if you wear you know, 02:30 dark glasses, the world looks dark, 02:32 if you wear rose glass, the world looks rosy you know. 02:35 So what does the atheistic glasses look like? 02:38 Well, if you're trying to define you know, 02:39 its truly tricky, because they have actually 02:41 transitioned to a different definition. 02:43 I know that classical atheism used to talk 02:45 about the propositional truth of the denial of God. 02:48 That's where we get a' theism from. 02:50 A is a negation of theis. 02:52 Right, so theism of course is the belief in God. In God. 02:55 Yeah, so they're negating that God does not exist. 02:57 It's a propositional truth. 02:59 But now the second definition was come up, 03:01 it actually came out by Anthony Flew, 03:03 who actually now converted and he is atheist. 03:07 He is not so an atheist but a deist. 03:09 Now the difference is that he doesn't believe 03:11 in a personal God, but he believes 03:12 there's a power out there. 03:13 So he went from atheism to deism. Yeah. 03:15 And what is the new definition there. 03:18 Well his definition is interesting 03:20 because his definition is very influential. 03:21 He is one of the influential philosophers of our century. 03:24 He actually said that atheism 03:26 is not the propositional truth of the denial of God, 03:29 but more so perspective 03:32 based on the lack of evidence of God. 03:34 Okay, so it's not necessarily 03:37 that we are fully convinced that God doesn't exist, 03:40 it's just with the evidence that we have, 03:43 we don't have enough evidence to believe in God. 03:45 Yeah, imagine a core procedure. 03:46 For example, what, is it K.C. Anthony. Right. 03:49 The reason he let it goes because of lack of evidence. 03:52 So essentially Anthony Flew saying the same thing, 03:54 the reason I am letting God go 03:55 is because of lack of evidence. Okay. 03:58 So he is not saying that he has arguments 03:59 against the existence of God, it's the lack of evidence 04:02 make something that there is no God. 04:03 Right and of course 04:05 there is a lot of foundational pillars of atheism 04:09 and I think the age old question Ezequiel, 04:13 is this whole issue of pain, this whole issue of evil, 04:18 this whole issue of suffering 04:20 and so be quiet honest even myself as a theist, 04:22 as a believer in God. 04:24 Sometimes they kind of really rocks your, you know, 04:27 theological world view as you mentioned about world view. 04:30 Atheist at times say, you know, 04:32 if God does exist, 04:35 then why there is so much of evil 04:36 and suffering in this world. 04:37 If God is all powerful, then doesn't 04:39 he have the capabilities to remove evil and suffering? 04:42 And Ezequiel, for a young person 04:43 that's watching this program 04:45 who has this doubt and this argument in their mind, 04:47 how would we answer that question, that arguments? 04:50 You know, recently I saw a video 04:53 that give a really good response to that. 04:55 Its online, this guy named Ty Gibson 04:59 came out with his video series 05:01 and his testimony talks about how 05:04 he expected God to be like superman, 05:06 where He comes in and you know, 05:07 He punches the bad guy and He takes the bad guy down 05:10 and then He stops the world from suffering. 05:11 And he said, he wanted God to be a God of force. 05:15 But word of control was not God's ultimate purpose 05:19 and that's a good question asked. 05:21 Word of control is not 05:22 God's ultimate purpose, then what is? 05:25 And obviously the Bible talks about how God is love 05:28 and how he wants humanity to love Him. 05:30 As a matter of fact when asked Jesus, 05:31 what's the greatest commandment 05:33 we talked about last time 05:34 is to love God with all your heart, 05:36 your mind and your soul. 05:37 That's the ultimate requirement 05:39 that God has from you. 05:40 So how does love come into the factor? 05:43 Well, you can't force love, program it. 05:47 In order for love to be love 05:49 it has to have a free choice, right. Right. 05:51 Like you can't hold someone at gunpoint 05:53 and say marry me and love me for the rest of your life 05:55 or be my best friend. Right. 05:56 And you can't hold someone at gunpoint 05:58 and say listen donate blood, because this person is dying 06:00 and then you would be a good person. 06:02 There won't be a good person 06:03 because they are forced into it, right? 06:05 So it can't be programmed force 06:07 and obviously whenever you program 06:09 you're math to say I love you in the morning. 06:10 It doesn't mean that you feel very loved by, 06:13 you programmed that to say that. Right. 06:14 So it has to be your own free volition. 06:16 So God is not looking for robots 06:18 that are programmed to say I love you God. 06:20 He is looking for robot you could have free choice, 06:22 but now imagine this. 06:24 Out of all the greatest possible 06:26 beings that could exist. 06:28 who is the greatest possible being that exist, 06:30 I am asking you guys now. God. 06:31 God. God, right. Now get this. 06:34 The attribute that the Bible talks 06:35 about that is his greatest attribute is what? 06:39 Love. Love, now get this. 06:42 That means that the greatest possible 06:43 experience that you could have 06:44 in this universe is an experience of love. 06:49 The only way you could even get close 06:51 to having this amazing experience of love 06:54 is by having freedom of choice. 06:56 So God is trying to make it possible for us 07:00 to have the best of all experiences 07:03 where we get actual experience a part of who he is. Love. 07:07 Okay. so that when you are saying 07:08 then it is that God took a risk 07:10 essentially in creating us because He then create us 07:13 preprogrammed to do everything 07:15 that He want us to do rather we are free more legions, 07:18 we have the ability to choose whatever we want 07:20 and of course that's the risk. 07:22 So does that explain 07:23 why is that we live in an imperfect world. 07:26 Would that be the explanation? 07:27 You know, the Bible talks about the fall 07:29 and that definitely gets into why we actually see 07:32 what on world now 07:34 and but free world explains why the fall even happen 07:38 in the first place like why would God even allow 07:40 the possibility of fall because a lot of people 07:42 actually want God to be controlling 07:43 and to stop every point. 07:44 But if He was controlling, 07:45 then ultimately you wouldn't have a God 07:47 that's allowing the dice roll where they may, 07:51 He is controlling the issue. 07:52 Therefore it can't ultimately be love. 07:55 He has to let the cookie crumble 07:56 the way it's gonna crumble. 07:57 Even though it hurts. Yeah, even though it hurts. 07:59 Even though it's painful, even though 08:00 it wasn't the original plan, they got in Genesis. 08:02 So God actually made it possible for us 08:05 to not believe in Him. Right. 08:07 To say there is no God. 08:08 Even though, He could have said, you know, 08:10 everyone is gonna know that there is a God. 08:12 He made it possible for us to choose to believe either way. 08:15 Yeah, His issue again is not ultimate control, its love. 08:18 And I mean think about this, parents are the same way. 08:22 Whenever they have children, 08:23 they control to a certain point. 08:25 But ultimately when they get to certain age, 08:27 they have to get them go and make their own choices 08:28 whether they are good choices or bad choices 08:30 because anything else will hinder 08:32 and harm their growth as individuals. 08:35 Essentially the same thing with God. 08:37 So what about the person who says, well you know, 08:39 that's fine, that's fine enough. 08:43 Why doesn't just God kill the devil? 08:44 I mean it seems like the devil is kind of like the, 08:47 you know, the villain in this great war between good and evil. 08:51 If indeed God exist, and if we are saying 08:54 that you know, there was a fall 08:55 and of course the fall was insinuated by Satan 08:58 and of course Adam and Eve fell. 09:00 Why doesn't God just put an end to it? 09:02 Why doesn't God just kill the devil 09:03 and just settle it like what is it 09:05 that He is waiting for why, why? 09:08 That's a good question. Yeah, 09:09 its funny that you asked that question 09:10 because even as an atheist growing up, 09:12 actually never even thought about that. 09:14 But as you read the answer 09:15 before I even had the question come to mind. 09:17 And I thought of myself this is meaningful. 09:19 I was reading a thick book, 09:22 Great Controversy by Ellen White 09:23 and I think the section was Liberty of Conscience. 09:27 And one of the things they mentioned is a fact 09:29 that the devil was not destroyed 09:32 because ultimately God did not want to scare 09:34 the rest of the on looking universe to think 09:36 that all He was about control. 09:38 He wanted the universe to be able to worship Him 09:41 and love instead of fear. 09:43 Because imagine, okay someone accuses me 09:46 of being a warlord or you know, 09:48 a mobster and all sudden the next day 09:50 that person goes missing. 09:52 That just seems to contribute to the fact 09:53 that I am probably--You are probably involve in that. 09:55 They accuse me, yeah exactly. 09:57 So this guy comes up and he starts accusing God. 10:00 That Satan comes up and start accusing God 10:02 and this is a type of person that he thinks he is. 10:04 God acts a certain way almost seems to reinforce 10:07 who Satan is accusing Him to be. 10:10 So God has to stand back at him, 10:11 almost let it develop in order to show 10:13 the on looking universe 10:14 that His choice is the best choice. 10:17 Well, you know, one of the reasons 10:19 that we are talking about you know, 10:20 God is love is because people think that pain is the reason, 10:23 pain and sufferings are reasons 10:24 why God can't exist, 10:25 because God is all powerful you know, 10:27 why can't He stop the pain? 10:30 And we have kind of answered that. 10:31 But what about the people who say you know, 10:33 God doesn't exist because lack of information. 10:36 Lack of information, you know, that's a good one, 10:38 because ultimately there is this dictum 10:41 that I have really come to favor. 10:43 It says "Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence." 10:48 Now what am I talking about. 10:50 But what that means is that just because 10:51 there is a lack of evidence, 10:53 it doesn't mean that that's not the case. 10:55 Think about this for example. 10:57 In archeology, I took the class, 11:00 and we talked about how you never make a case 11:03 based on absence of evidence 11:04 because it could always pop up, right. 11:07 So ultimately when you're making a case 11:08 based on the absence of evidence 11:10 which is what Anthony Flew 11:11 does in his definition of atheism. 11:14 Ultimately you're setting up yourself in a risky situation 11:16 because evidence could always pop up. 11:18 Now the only other issues when you are making the case 11:21 saying that God does not exist for sure, 11:24 you have a huge case to prove. 11:27 I mean think about this, 11:28 if I told you that there is no such thing as gold in Alaska, 11:30 what would you have to do to prove that. 11:32 We have to go to Alaska and start digging. 11:33 Yes, start digging, right. 11:35 Looking people's molars to see if have gold caps you know, 11:37 you have to do the incredible to be able to find out, 11:40 it takes a lot. 11:41 But imagine this, when someone says 11:42 that God does not exists in this universe. 11:45 What would you have to do to prove that? 11:46 We have to fly over the universe. 11:49 Yeah and you have to have this maximum compacity 11:52 of knowledge where you know everything from the most 11:55 gigantic cosmological astronomical body 12:00 to even the quantum level of atoms 12:03 you understand to a T end and you understand 12:06 the base on this knowledge God does not exist. 12:08 Now that's pretty bold statement you know, 12:11 and arrogantly bold statement, 12:12 so for atheists to make that it's pretty strong. 12:15 Now what about this Ezequiel, 12:16 may be not the absence of evidence 12:17 but one just a simple argument 12:19 for how in the world do you as a Christian 12:24 believe so whole heartedly in something 12:27 that you fully cannot see. 12:28 In other words, if adults like us, 12:31 we're young adults like ourselves, 12:33 we said that we had an invisible friend 12:36 then obviously we would also be call certain names, 12:40 certain people have names 12:41 who are grown up invisible friends. 12:44 But yet essentially that's what 12:45 Christianity appears to be, you have an invisible friend. 12:49 What do you say to that young person 12:51 who is intellectual who says wait a second? 12:53 How can you be so convinced in believing 12:55 something that you cannot see? How do you answer that? 12:58 I think that's a really good question. 12:59 As a matter fact I think that's one of the number 13:01 one questions next to the problem 13:03 of the evil and suffering. 13:05 How can you believe in the God that you cannot see, right? 13:09 Now the issue comes in and you have ask them 13:12 is there anything that you believe in 13:14 that you can experience and you don't see, 13:15 that you don't touch your five senses. 13:18 You know, because that's ultimate question 13:20 you have to ask, usually 13:21 the boy say no because that you know, 13:23 the trying to escape the argument of God 13:25 not existing and you can't 13:26 experience into your five senses. 13:27 But if you really, really hold them to it, 13:31 you could ask some questions like, for example. 13:33 Do you believe in science? 13:35 You know, usually especially coming from an atheist 13:37 perspective they will say, yes. 13:40 And then you ask them what make science go? 13:42 What makes it strong? 13:44 You know, what makes it so powerful? 13:45 A lot of people will say that it's the engine of logic. 13:49 Logic is what make science function the way it does. 13:52 Because if we didn't have logic, 13:53 then we couldn't use science the way we do. 13:55 But then you ask the question well, what about logic? 14:02 Can you experience logic with your five senses? 14:05 I mean think about this. 14:06 Can you put logic in a Bunsen burner 14:09 and watch its color change? 14:11 Can you observe it in a telescope or microscope, 14:14 can you observe it scientifically? 14:15 Logic cannot be observed scientifically 14:17 because it's an abstract concept. 14:20 So in order for them to negate the existence of God based 14:23 on the fact that they can't see, 14:25 they have to get rid of the law more like logic. 14:28 Right, for example. 14:29 I had an experience when I was in college there, 14:32 somebody you know, would challenge me on a basis 14:35 that they can't see God, you can't you know, 14:37 really interact with him, 14:38 so because you cant see him. 14:41 You know, He doesn't exists 14:42 and atheists send a challenge Christians 14:44 on the basis of information and if you could, 14:47 you know, show me God then I would believe 14:49 what I think good thing for us to realize is that you know, 14:52 a lot of people know information 14:54 like we know smoking is wrong, 14:55 its gonna cause cancer but we still smoke. 14:58 And so that already kind of tells us 14:59 that even if they could know, you know, 15:01 they would still choose not to believe 15:03 because they know smoking will cause cancer 15:05 yet they start smoke 15:06 and so they challenge us on the basis of information 15:09 but we can also challenge them on the basis of application. 15:11 I think it is interesting too 15:12 because there is a lot of things 15:14 that you cannot see it with a naked eye. 15:16 There is you know, molecular structures, 15:19 the atomic levels and a bunch of other stuff 15:21 that are forgotten science class etc., 15:23 but there is a lot of things 15:24 that you cannot see you need instruments. 15:26 You need microscopes, you need all these fancy little gadgets 15:28 but people say, well, you can't see God. 15:32 I think it's similar in the spiritual life, 15:34 you need instruments to see God 15:36 and I think one of those instruments 15:37 is the word of God. 15:39 It's the Bible which gives you kind of somehow, 15:41 it gives you the capacity to see beyond 15:44 where your naked eye cannot see. 15:46 And ultimately the issue is even science, 15:49 it inputs things that they cannot see 15:51 in order for science to make sense. 15:53 For example, for years, 15:55 they uses the thing called Ethrane, 15:56 but obviously it's been proven false, 15:58 now but they use it to understand science, 15:59 but now they use the things called neutrinos. 16:02 What is neutrinos for those who don't know. 16:04 Neutrinos is one of the smallest objects in an atom. 16:08 You know, they input it that in order for them 16:11 to understand science and certain ConPhysics. 16:13 Faster than the speed of light. 16:14 Yeah, but they couldn't see these things 16:17 they inputted them because it made science make sense. 16:19 Now I believe when you input God into your world view, 16:22 it just makes the world makes sense in general. 16:25 It's almost like what G.K. Chesterton said. 16:27 He said God is like the sun. 16:29 You know, you can't look directly at it, 16:31 but without it you can't see anything else. 16:34 Ooh I like that. That's nice. 16:36 Now Ezequiel, what about we are talking about science, 16:38 we are talking about you know, universe etc., 16:40 the atomic level, what is this, 16:43 I hope I say right, I have to say slow, cosmological. 16:47 Its one of the difficulties 16:48 when we are talking about atheism 16:49 we get into philosophical subjects 16:51 and words are just way too long for the average person. 16:53 What in the world is the cosmological argument 16:55 and how does this argument help us 16:57 do better defend the existence of God. 17:00 That's a really good question. 17:01 You know, actually Oxford got to atheism 17:05 mentions that cosmological argument 17:06 is something that atheists cannot stay away from now 17:09 because there is an apologist out there 17:11 name William Lane Craig that is pushing it forward. 17:13 His specific cosmological argument 17:15 is known as Kalam Cosmological Argument now, 17:17 what is a cosmological argument, 17:18 why atheists are so fascinated by it? 17:20 And why they wrestling with it? 17:22 Well, cosmological argument 17:23 is essentially an argument based on existence itself. 17:27 I mean it goes back all the way to Aristotle, 17:31 the first original cosmological arguments. 17:33 But essentially why is there something rather than nothing, 17:36 that's the way a Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz putted, 17:39 a German philosopher mathematician. 17:41 So why is there things existence 17:43 instead of non existing. 17:44 And the way that William Lane Craig 17:46 phrases aces his arguments, that's very simple he says, 17:50 "Everything that has a beginning has a cause," 17:53 then he goes on to say, 17:55 "science has proven that universe has a beginning." 17:58 Therefore the universe must have a cause. 18:01 So the universe consists of matter, time, energy, 18:06 and space and something outside of time, 18:09 matter, energy and space had to create the universe. 18:14 It's very interesting. 18:15 So what valid candidates are there 18:16 where there is either abstract objects like numbers, 18:19 sets and theories or there is God 18:23 who is not bound by matter, space, time and energy. 18:27 Now numbers, sets and theories 18:28 don't have any cosmos powers like just 18:30 because you have a mathematical equation on a piece of paper. 18:32 It doesn't make a car work. Right. 18:34 You have to have the causal identity. 18:35 God is the only causal identity that isn't bound 18:38 by space, time matter and energy. 18:41 And this is kind of like just the cosmological. 18:43 Yeah it's a just of that, 18:44 I mean it tends to sound sophisticated 18:46 but if you really, really focus on and think about it, 18:48 it's not as complicated as it really sounds. 18:50 You have to just focus on it for a little bit. 18:53 Well, since we are talking about philosophy 18:55 one of the things that modern philosophers like to say, 18:59 postmodern philosophers like to say 19:01 is that truth is relative, there is no absolute truth. 19:04 So God could exist in your world 19:06 but He doesn't exist in my world 19:07 and there is no such things absolute truth. 19:09 Now, I know you know, 19:10 philosophers are moving beyond to post postmodern 19:12 but you know, for the sake of I'm talking about this. 19:16 What do you have to say about absolute truth? 19:18 Relativism. You know, 19:20 it's funny because the post modern world view, 19:24 you first have to define 19:25 what the modern world view is, right. 19:27 The modern world view really 19:28 was given birth by Rene Descartes, 19:30 he is a French philosopher, 19:32 he was actually a Christian for that matter. 19:35 He is the one that said "I think 19:36 therefore I am." Right. 19:39 He believed in rational thought. 19:41 He was known as the father of Rationalism. 19:43 Where he thought that you could prove 19:45 things in absolute certainty. 19:48 Well, postmodernism is a response 19:50 to that where they don't believe 19:53 that you could look at things with absolute certainty 19:55 because everyone has biases, everyone has perspectives, 19:57 everyone has experiences 20:00 that change their view of the world. 20:03 So they take it to another extreme 20:05 saying based on our biases, we can experience truth. 20:08 The only issue with postmodernism 20:10 when they say you know, 20:12 we don't know what truth is, truth is relative. 20:15 And they completely ignore the objective is the fact 20:19 that they are using an objective truth 20:22 to get rid of an objective truth. 20:23 Its self refuting, it's like trying to pull 20:26 yourself up by your own bootstraps. 20:28 That's impossible, because if you are saying, 20:30 there is no such thing as truth, 20:32 you could ask him the questions so. 20:33 It's an absolute statement. Yeah, is that true? 20:35 So you are saying is that true? 20:36 But you just said, there is no such thing as true, 20:37 but you just said, if that's not true 20:39 then I shouldn't even listen to it, so its self refuting. 20:42 So it constantly that the stronger you try 20:44 to destroy the idea of absolute truth, 20:48 every time you hit at it, 20:49 it hits right back at you. Yeah. 20:50 And its kind of like the whole causal truth, 20:52 all truth is relative. 20:54 If all truth is relative, that means that the truth, 20:58 that all truth is all relative is also relative. 21:01 So its non-consequential, it doesn't matter. 21:03 Yeah, it doesn't matter. So in other words, 21:04 its just literally going circles, it will never arrive. 21:07 What' amazing about that is that it allows 21:10 for an alternative philosophical position 21:12 because if truth is relative 21:14 you know, you can believe that, 21:15 but then there also can be the opposite. 21:17 Right. Yeah. 21:18 And so I mean that's a good ledge 21:20 for Adventist to get in. 21:21 Now let's get practical. 21:22 As I think the audience, some of our audience, 21:24 their heads might be spinning with all these words, 21:26 all these concepts. Let's get practical. 21:27 Ezequiel, what about the average person's hit list? 21:30 It doesn't really matter. 21:32 I mean you believe in God, 21:33 may be I don't believe in God. 21:35 The most important things are we're nice to each other 21:37 and that we respect each other. 21:38 And that does have some very common argument. 21:41 Where do we even begin to answer this question? 21:43 Well, I think that's true, you know, 21:44 we do need to be nice to each other, 21:45 and respect each other. 21:46 I think the only thing with that argument 21:49 is that when people ultimately make it, 21:51 they are screaming as tolerance 21:54 being the ultimate virtue. 21:56 The issue is we don't believe 21:58 that tolerance is the ultimate virtue. 22:00 For example, the widow burning in India, 22:03 Christians stopped that because 22:04 they thought it was evil. 22:05 Now the whole world looked at them 22:06 and say yeah that's wrong. 22:07 To burn a widow because of that, right. 22:11 So ultimately the question 22:12 I would ask in this situation is based on the evidence, 22:17 lets say I mean, we both tried to be fair 22:21 both atheists and Christians, 22:22 I say there is a 50% chance of being Christian, 22:24 there is a 50% of Christianity is not sure. 22:26 Let's try to be fair, right. 22:28 So let's say what we really gain and lose if we are wrong. 22:31 As Christians, I believe 22:33 that I have a happy fulfilled life. 22:34 So if I die and God does not exist, 22:36 I will never know. 22:37 So ultimately I don't really lose anything. 22:39 But think about this from an atheist perspective. 22:42 Let's say if the atheist is wrong 22:44 and Christianity is true and they die, 22:47 and they ultimately find out 22:48 that the Christianity was true. 22:50 The Christian gains everything 22:53 and the atheist loses everything. 22:55 This is known as Pascal's Wager. 22:57 Pascal was a brilliant French philosopher, Blaise Pascal. 23:01 He is actually known as the father of the barometer. 23:04 Pascal's triangle, mathematical concept 23:07 and also even a primitive 23:10 computer back in the 16th century, 23:12 well not the 16th century past that. 23:14 But it's pretty amazing what he could do at that point. 23:16 So the concept that as a Christian, 23:18 if you believe in God, you have nothing to lose. Yeah. 23:20 But if you don't believe in God 23:22 and He is there and He eventually exist, 23:26 then you can lose it lot. Exactly. 23:28 That's an interesting concept. 23:29 So what are the non-- the arguments 23:33 towards the nonexistence of God. 23:36 Ultimately I mean we talked about one of them 23:38 is about the lack of evidence 23:40 which I don't think that's the case at all 23:42 especially I mean one of the strongest argument 23:44 is the theological argument. 23:47 Say it again. Theological argument. 23:49 Theological argument, what does that mean? 23:51 All that means is the argument based on order, right. 23:54 So the fact that we have an orderly universe, 23:56 therefore we should have something 23:58 that is set in order. 24:00 Let me use an illustration to make this point. 24:02 Imagine that we were at my room 24:03 and I had a book shelves all over the room. 24:06 But there is no books, all the books are in the living room. 24:08 And we thought to ourselves, you know what, 24:09 we need to put all these in alphabetical order, 24:11 but let's go grab some lunch 24:13 and we'll come back and laugh, 24:15 we will hit this with a full stomach 24:17 because you know, I am hungrier right now. 24:19 So we decide and we go along, 24:20 we come back and also we look at the books 24:22 and they're in alphabetical order. 24:24 And we think to ourselves, oh wow man, 24:26 that must have been some tornado or some earthquake. 24:29 No that's not what we think, right. 24:30 We normally assume, oh man, 24:32 someone must have come in here 24:33 and set them in alphabetical order, 24:34 because that doesn't happen at a chaos 24:36 something set in order. 24:37 Somebody with the compacity 24:38 to reason to look at the letter, 24:41 the details and be able to maneuver. 24:43 And the theological argument falls in different levels. 24:45 At the level of the universe 24:47 where there are these laws that are so finely tuned. 24:50 That's basically, mathematicians called it 24:52 astronomical absurdity to believe 24:54 that it could have just happened by chance 24:56 and even at the DNA level, the DNA level, 25:00 its complicated grammar and its actually language, 25:03 its almost like computer science. 25:06 Okay, how do you have from the very top 25:08 to the bottom shelf order 25:10 and believe that it came out of disorder. 25:12 When both of it is super ultra complicated, 25:15 especially when you layered it in top of each other 25:17 and you think about the possibilities 25:19 of both being put together. 25:21 It's absurd. Right. 25:23 Now Ezequiel, what about the young person 25:25 looking at this program who has heard our discussion, 25:28 compelling, interesting may be new ideas. 25:31 What message would you give in 30 seconds? 25:35 What message would you give to a young person 25:37 who is watching this program, 25:38 who wants a stronger assurance in their belief in God? 25:43 I would say, you know, 25:45 think hard and look even harder. 25:48 I think ultimately the problem 25:49 is that we're usually like Pontius Pilate, 25:52 you know, where we ask the question 25:53 what is truth and we walk away 25:54 before Jesus even gives an answer. 25:57 I think ultimately people are more willing 25:58 to ask questions than to look for truth, 26:00 because looking for truth actually takes effort. 26:03 And I think that if anyone is young 26:05 and they are actually trying to figure out these answers, 26:07 it's important to look and look really hard you know, 26:11 to give it all you got. Awesome. 26:13 Well, I feel smarter just after all this discussion 26:16 and Ezequiel I didn't know you had 26:18 that much depth of knowledge 26:19 if you like I have to respect you now a little bit more 26:21 but I do thank you for coming on our show 26:23 and blessing us with these ideas and concepts. 26:25 Thanks for coming. Thanks for honoring me. 26:28 Maybe today you are a person watching this program 26:31 and you wondered wow, 26:32 I never thought of these concepts before, 26:34 these are new ideas. 26:35 I remember knocking on doors in Vancouver, 26:36 British Columbia and speaking to a lady and I asked her. 26:41 Aren't you interested, 26:42 aren't you curious to know what truth is? 26:45 And she looks at me and she says no. 26:47 And I say is why aren't you interested 26:50 in finding discovering truth. 26:52 And she says because I am afraid 26:55 of what the answers might be. 26:57 And may be today you are young person 26:59 who as Ezequiel mentioned 27:01 going through the Pontius Pilate experience, 27:04 we get asking hard questions. 27:06 But you are not willing to receive those answers. 27:08 We want to encourage you to take a deeper look 27:10 into the word of God to ask the hard questions, 27:13 but also be willing to receive those very compelling answers. 27:18 We want to encourage you to recognize 27:19 that Christianity doesn't 27:21 have to be an emotional rush merely 27:24 but you as a young adult can have intelligent reasons 27:27 why you believe in God 27:28 and you can through your personal life 27:31 and also through your conversation with other show 27:33 that you do have a reason 27:36 to believe in the existence of God. 27:38 And I think that God is gonna bless you 27:40 as you continue to explore truth, 27:42 so continue in your journey. 27:45 Don't give up, ask the hard questions, 27:48 continue investigating, 27:49 continue asking the hard questions. 27:51 And I guarantee that when you come 27:53 to your discovery of truth you would not be disappointed. 27:57 God bless you, thanks for joining us till next time. |
Revised 2014-12-17