Engage

Atheism / Secularism Pt. 2

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Jay Rosario & Daniel McGrath (Host), Ezequiel Vasquez

Home

Series Code: E

Program Code: E000023


00:17 Hello again, my name is Jay Rosario
00:19 and welcome to Engage.
00:21 In this show, we are going to address the relevant
00:24 and sometimes controversial subjects
00:26 that are facing young Christians all over the world.
00:28 Joining us today is my good friend Dan McGrath,
00:30 who is actually our co-host
00:32 and our guest today is Ezequiel.
00:33 And for those of you that don't know you Dan,
00:35 now tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:37 Well, Jay, I have been your friend for a long time.
00:39 It has been for a while, hasn't it?
00:40 Yes, it's been for a while,
00:41 that's a good thing I guess. Yeah, that's a good thing.
00:43 And I also pastor in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
00:46 and today we have our friend Ezequiel with us.
00:49 And why don't you tell something about yourself?
00:51 My name is Ezequiel,
00:52 I am an associate pastor in Birmingham,
00:54 Alabama and I am actually originally from California
00:57 though but I am in the south now.
00:59 Still enjoying the heat, aha.
01:01 Well, yeah, I mean humidity. Well, I think humidity.
01:03 Yeah, because I was in Central California,
01:05 where it gets like 110, but its dry heat.
01:07 That's where I lived, up in that area. All right.
01:09 Well, we are glad that you are back here with us,
01:11 you've joined us for an episode.
01:13 Today we are gonna continue our conversation on atheism.
01:16 There are a lot of people that have questions
01:19 about what they believe
01:20 and we heard our testimony
01:22 about Ezequiel's experience with atheism.
01:24 But now we want to get more into the actual arguments,
01:28 the apologetics, the philosophy
01:29 behind how to reach an atheist.
01:31 And what to do when they challenge us with questions?
01:34 And so we're glad to have you back here.
01:36 We're glad that we can begin again
01:37 and just why don't we let Jay,
01:40 why don't you start us off today.
01:41 Well, Ezequiel you know, like I said
01:43 before atheism is a very intimidating subject.
01:47 Yeah. And I think it was very,
01:48 why we mentioned that its probably intimidating
01:49 because maybe we haven't explored it,
01:53 maybe we haven't listened to atheists,
01:55 and listen to their questions, listen to their rebel etc.
01:58 But for those who may be are not
02:00 fully familiar with atheism.
02:02 How, what is atheism?
02:04 And how do we define
02:06 and how would you define atheism?
02:08 Well, I define atheism as a world view.
02:10 What is a world view? Maybe a lack in the world view.
02:12 World view is a prospect that you have on life in general
02:15 and world view is way we're arching
02:17 more than just a couple of answers
02:19 is what defines all the answers
02:22 that you are gonna have about life.
02:24 For it's a perspective. It's a perspective, yes.
02:26 It's the view of the world we can say.
02:27 Exactly, it's... World view.
02:29 Its like glasses if you wear you know,
02:30 dark glasses, the world looks dark,
02:32 if you wear rose glass, the world looks rosy you know.
02:35 So what does the atheistic glasses look like?
02:38 Well, if you're trying to define you know,
02:39 its truly tricky, because they have actually
02:41 transitioned to a different definition.
02:43 I know that classical atheism used to talk
02:45 about the propositional truth of the denial of God.
02:48 That's where we get a' theism from.
02:50 A is a negation of theis.
02:52 Right, so theism of course is the belief in God. In God.
02:55 Yeah, so they're negating that God does not exist.
02:57 It's a propositional truth.
02:59 But now the second definition was come up,
03:01 it actually came out by Anthony Flew,
03:03 who actually now converted and he is atheist.
03:07 He is not so an atheist but a deist.
03:09 Now the difference is that he doesn't believe
03:11 in a personal God, but he believes
03:12 there's a power out there.
03:13 So he went from atheism to deism. Yeah.
03:15 And what is the new definition there.
03:18 Well his definition is interesting
03:20 because his definition is very influential.
03:21 He is one of the influential philosophers of our century.
03:24 He actually said that atheism
03:26 is not the propositional truth of the denial of God,
03:29 but more so perspective
03:32 based on the lack of evidence of God.
03:34 Okay, so it's not necessarily
03:37 that we are fully convinced that God doesn't exist,
03:40 it's just with the evidence that we have,
03:43 we don't have enough evidence to believe in God.
03:45 Yeah, imagine a core procedure.
03:46 For example, what, is it K.C. Anthony. Right.
03:49 The reason he let it goes because of lack of evidence.
03:52 So essentially Anthony Flew saying the same thing,
03:54 the reason I am letting God go
03:55 is because of lack of evidence. Okay.
03:58 So he is not saying that he has arguments
03:59 against the existence of God, it's the lack of evidence
04:02 make something that there is no God.
04:03 Right and of course
04:05 there is a lot of foundational pillars of atheism
04:09 and I think the age old question Ezequiel,
04:13 is this whole issue of pain, this whole issue of evil,
04:18 this whole issue of suffering
04:20 and so be quiet honest even myself as a theist,
04:22 as a believer in God.
04:24 Sometimes they kind of really rocks your, you know,
04:27 theological world view as you mentioned about world view.
04:30 Atheist at times say, you know,
04:32 if God does exist,
04:35 then why there is so much of evil
04:36 and suffering in this world.
04:37 If God is all powerful, then doesn't
04:39 he have the capabilities to remove evil and suffering?
04:42 And Ezequiel, for a young person
04:43 that's watching this program
04:45 who has this doubt and this argument in their mind,
04:47 how would we answer that question, that arguments?
04:50 You know, recently I saw a video
04:53 that give a really good response to that.
04:55 Its online, this guy named Ty Gibson
04:59 came out with his video series
05:01 and his testimony talks about how
05:04 he expected God to be like superman,
05:06 where He comes in and you know,
05:07 He punches the bad guy and He takes the bad guy down
05:10 and then He stops the world from suffering.
05:11 And he said, he wanted God to be a God of force.
05:15 But word of control was not God's ultimate purpose
05:19 and that's a good question asked.
05:21 Word of control is not
05:22 God's ultimate purpose, then what is?
05:25 And obviously the Bible talks about how God is love
05:28 and how he wants humanity to love Him.
05:30 As a matter of fact when asked Jesus,
05:31 what's the greatest commandment
05:33 we talked about last time
05:34 is to love God with all your heart,
05:36 your mind and your soul.
05:37 That's the ultimate requirement
05:39 that God has from you.
05:40 So how does love come into the factor?
05:43 Well, you can't force love, program it.
05:47 In order for love to be love
05:49 it has to have a free choice, right. Right.
05:51 Like you can't hold someone at gunpoint
05:53 and say marry me and love me for the rest of your life
05:55 or be my best friend. Right.
05:56 And you can't hold someone at gunpoint
05:58 and say listen donate blood, because this person is dying
06:00 and then you would be a good person.
06:02 There won't be a good person
06:03 because they are forced into it, right?
06:05 So it can't be programmed force
06:07 and obviously whenever you program
06:09 you're math to say I love you in the morning.
06:10 It doesn't mean that you feel very loved by,
06:13 you programmed that to say that. Right.
06:14 So it has to be your own free volition.
06:16 So God is not looking for robots
06:18 that are programmed to say I love you God.
06:20 He is looking for robot you could have free choice,
06:22 but now imagine this.
06:24 Out of all the greatest possible
06:26 beings that could exist.
06:28 who is the greatest possible being that exist,
06:30 I am asking you guys now. God.
06:31 God. God, right. Now get this.
06:34 The attribute that the Bible talks
06:35 about that is his greatest attribute is what?
06:39 Love. Love, now get this.
06:42 That means that the greatest possible
06:43 experience that you could have
06:44 in this universe is an experience of love.
06:49 The only way you could even get close
06:51 to having this amazing experience of love
06:54 is by having freedom of choice.
06:56 So God is trying to make it possible for us
07:00 to have the best of all experiences
07:03 where we get actual experience a part of who he is. Love.
07:07 Okay. so that when you are saying
07:08 then it is that God took a risk
07:10 essentially in creating us because He then create us
07:13 preprogrammed to do everything
07:15 that He want us to do rather we are free more legions,
07:18 we have the ability to choose whatever we want
07:20 and of course that's the risk.
07:22 So does that explain
07:23 why is that we live in an imperfect world.
07:26 Would that be the explanation?
07:27 You know, the Bible talks about the fall
07:29 and that definitely gets into why we actually see
07:32 what on world now
07:34 and but free world explains why the fall even happen
07:38 in the first place like why would God even allow
07:40 the possibility of fall because a lot of people
07:42 actually want God to be controlling
07:43 and to stop every point.
07:44 But if He was controlling,
07:45 then ultimately you wouldn't have a God
07:47 that's allowing the dice roll where they may,
07:51 He is controlling the issue.
07:52 Therefore it can't ultimately be love.
07:55 He has to let the cookie crumble
07:56 the way it's gonna crumble.
07:57 Even though it hurts. Yeah, even though it hurts.
07:59 Even though it's painful, even though
08:00 it wasn't the original plan, they got in Genesis.
08:02 So God actually made it possible for us
08:05 to not believe in Him. Right.
08:07 To say there is no God.
08:08 Even though, He could have said, you know,
08:10 everyone is gonna know that there is a God.
08:12 He made it possible for us to choose to believe either way.
08:15 Yeah, His issue again is not ultimate control, its love.
08:18 And I mean think about this, parents are the same way.
08:22 Whenever they have children,
08:23 they control to a certain point.
08:25 But ultimately when they get to certain age,
08:27 they have to get them go and make their own choices
08:28 whether they are good choices or bad choices
08:30 because anything else will hinder
08:32 and harm their growth as individuals.
08:35 Essentially the same thing with God.
08:37 So what about the person who says, well you know,
08:39 that's fine, that's fine enough.
08:43 Why doesn't just God kill the devil?
08:44 I mean it seems like the devil is kind of like the,
08:47 you know, the villain in this great war between good and evil.
08:51 If indeed God exist, and if we are saying
08:54 that you know, there was a fall
08:55 and of course the fall was insinuated by Satan
08:58 and of course Adam and Eve fell.
09:00 Why doesn't God just put an end to it?
09:02 Why doesn't God just kill the devil
09:03 and just settle it like what is it
09:05 that He is waiting for why, why?
09:08 That's a good question. Yeah,
09:09 its funny that you asked that question
09:10 because even as an atheist growing up,
09:12 actually never even thought about that.
09:14 But as you read the answer
09:15 before I even had the question come to mind.
09:17 And I thought of myself this is meaningful.
09:19 I was reading a thick book,
09:22 Great Controversy by Ellen White
09:23 and I think the section was Liberty of Conscience.
09:27 And one of the things they mentioned is a fact
09:29 that the devil was not destroyed
09:32 because ultimately God did not want to scare
09:34 the rest of the on looking universe to think
09:36 that all He was about control.
09:38 He wanted the universe to be able to worship Him
09:41 and love instead of fear.
09:43 Because imagine, okay someone accuses me
09:46 of being a warlord or you know,
09:48 a mobster and all sudden the next day
09:50 that person goes missing.
09:52 That just seems to contribute to the fact
09:53 that I am probably--You are probably involve in that.
09:55 They accuse me, yeah exactly.
09:57 So this guy comes up and he starts accusing God.
10:00 That Satan comes up and start accusing God
10:02 and this is a type of person that he thinks he is.
10:04 God acts a certain way almost seems to reinforce
10:07 who Satan is accusing Him to be.
10:10 So God has to stand back at him,
10:11 almost let it develop in order to show
10:13 the on looking universe
10:14 that His choice is the best choice.
10:17 Well, you know, one of the reasons
10:19 that we are talking about you know,
10:20 God is love is because people think that pain is the reason,
10:23 pain and sufferings are reasons
10:24 why God can't exist,
10:25 because God is all powerful you know,
10:27 why can't He stop the pain?
10:30 And we have kind of answered that.
10:31 But what about the people who say you know,
10:33 God doesn't exist because lack of information.
10:36 Lack of information, you know, that's a good one,
10:38 because ultimately there is this dictum
10:41 that I have really come to favor.
10:43 It says "Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence."
10:48 Now what am I talking about.
10:50 But what that means is that just because
10:51 there is a lack of evidence,
10:53 it doesn't mean that that's not the case.
10:55 Think about this for example.
10:57 In archeology, I took the class,
11:00 and we talked about how you never make a case
11:03 based on absence of evidence
11:04 because it could always pop up, right.
11:07 So ultimately when you're making a case
11:08 based on the absence of evidence
11:10 which is what Anthony Flew
11:11 does in his definition of atheism.
11:14 Ultimately you're setting up yourself in a risky situation
11:16 because evidence could always pop up.
11:18 Now the only other issues when you are making the case
11:21 saying that God does not exist for sure,
11:24 you have a huge case to prove.
11:27 I mean think about this,
11:28 if I told you that there is no such thing as gold in Alaska,
11:30 what would you have to do to prove that.
11:32 We have to go to Alaska and start digging.
11:33 Yes, start digging, right.
11:35 Looking people's molars to see if have gold caps you know,
11:37 you have to do the incredible to be able to find out,
11:40 it takes a lot.
11:41 But imagine this, when someone says
11:42 that God does not exists in this universe.
11:45 What would you have to do to prove that?
11:46 We have to fly over the universe.
11:49 Yeah and you have to have this maximum compacity
11:52 of knowledge where you know everything from the most
11:55 gigantic cosmological astronomical body
12:00 to even the quantum level of atoms
12:03 you understand to a T end and you understand
12:06 the base on this knowledge God does not exist.
12:08 Now that's pretty bold statement you know,
12:11 and arrogantly bold statement,
12:12 so for atheists to make that it's pretty strong.
12:15 Now what about this Ezequiel,
12:16 may be not the absence of evidence
12:17 but one just a simple argument
12:19 for how in the world do you as a Christian
12:24 believe so whole heartedly in something
12:27 that you fully cannot see.
12:28 In other words, if adults like us,
12:31 we're young adults like ourselves,
12:33 we said that we had an invisible friend
12:36 then obviously we would also be call certain names,
12:40 certain people have names
12:41 who are grown up invisible friends.
12:44 But yet essentially that's what
12:45 Christianity appears to be, you have an invisible friend.
12:49 What do you say to that young person
12:51 who is intellectual who says wait a second?
12:53 How can you be so convinced in believing
12:55 something that you cannot see? How do you answer that?
12:58 I think that's a really good question.
12:59 As a matter fact I think that's one of the number
13:01 one questions next to the problem
13:03 of the evil and suffering.
13:05 How can you believe in the God that you cannot see, right?
13:09 Now the issue comes in and you have ask them
13:12 is there anything that you believe in
13:14 that you can experience and you don't see,
13:15 that you don't touch your five senses.
13:18 You know, because that's ultimate question
13:20 you have to ask, usually
13:21 the boy say no because that you know,
13:23 the trying to escape the argument of God
13:25 not existing and you can't
13:26 experience into your five senses.
13:27 But if you really, really hold them to it,
13:31 you could ask some questions like, for example.
13:33 Do you believe in science?
13:35 You know, usually especially coming from an atheist
13:37 perspective they will say, yes.
13:40 And then you ask them what make science go?
13:42 What makes it strong?
13:44 You know, what makes it so powerful?
13:45 A lot of people will say that it's the engine of logic.
13:49 Logic is what make science function the way it does.
13:52 Because if we didn't have logic,
13:53 then we couldn't use science the way we do.
13:55 But then you ask the question well, what about logic?
14:02 Can you experience logic with your five senses?
14:05 I mean think about this.
14:06 Can you put logic in a Bunsen burner
14:09 and watch its color change?
14:11 Can you observe it in a telescope or microscope,
14:14 can you observe it scientifically?
14:15 Logic cannot be observed scientifically
14:17 because it's an abstract concept.
14:20 So in order for them to negate the existence of God based
14:23 on the fact that they can't see,
14:25 they have to get rid of the law more like logic.
14:28 Right, for example.
14:29 I had an experience when I was in college there,
14:32 somebody you know, would challenge me on a basis
14:35 that they can't see God, you can't you know,
14:37 really interact with him,
14:38 so because you cant see him.
14:41 You know, He doesn't exists
14:42 and atheists send a challenge Christians
14:44 on the basis of information and if you could,
14:47 you know, show me God then I would believe
14:49 what I think good thing for us to realize is that you know,
14:52 a lot of people know information
14:54 like we know smoking is wrong,
14:55 its gonna cause cancer but we still smoke.
14:58 And so that already kind of tells us
14:59 that even if they could know, you know,
15:01 they would still choose not to believe
15:03 because they know smoking will cause cancer
15:05 yet they start smoke
15:06 and so they challenge us on the basis of information
15:09 but we can also challenge them on the basis of application.
15:11 I think it is interesting too
15:12 because there is a lot of things
15:14 that you cannot see it with a naked eye.
15:16 There is you know, molecular structures,
15:19 the atomic levels and a bunch of other stuff
15:21 that are forgotten science class etc.,
15:23 but there is a lot of things
15:24 that you cannot see you need instruments.
15:26 You need microscopes, you need all these fancy little gadgets
15:28 but people say, well, you can't see God.
15:32 I think it's similar in the spiritual life,
15:34 you need instruments to see God
15:36 and I think one of those instruments
15:37 is the word of God.
15:39 It's the Bible which gives you kind of somehow,
15:41 it gives you the capacity to see beyond
15:44 where your naked eye cannot see.
15:46 And ultimately the issue is even science,
15:49 it inputs things that they cannot see
15:51 in order for science to make sense.
15:53 For example, for years,
15:55 they uses the thing called Ethrane,
15:56 but obviously it's been proven false,
15:58 now but they use it to understand science,
15:59 but now they use the things called neutrinos.
16:02 What is neutrinos for those who don't know.
16:04 Neutrinos is one of the smallest objects in an atom.
16:08 You know, they input it that in order for them
16:11 to understand science and certain ConPhysics.
16:13 Faster than the speed of light.
16:14 Yeah, but they couldn't see these things
16:17 they inputted them because it made science make sense.
16:19 Now I believe when you input God into your world view,
16:22 it just makes the world makes sense in general.
16:25 It's almost like what G.K. Chesterton said.
16:27 He said God is like the sun.
16:29 You know, you can't look directly at it,
16:31 but without it you can't see anything else.
16:34 Ooh I like that. That's nice.
16:36 Now Ezequiel, what about we are talking about science,
16:38 we are talking about you know, universe etc.,
16:40 the atomic level, what is this,
16:43 I hope I say right, I have to say slow, cosmological.
16:47 Its one of the difficulties
16:48 when we are talking about atheism
16:49 we get into philosophical subjects
16:51 and words are just way too long for the average person.
16:53 What in the world is the cosmological argument
16:55 and how does this argument help us
16:57 do better defend the existence of God.
17:00 That's a really good question.
17:01 You know, actually Oxford got to atheism
17:05 mentions that cosmological argument
17:06 is something that atheists cannot stay away from now
17:09 because there is an apologist out there
17:11 name William Lane Craig that is pushing it forward.
17:13 His specific cosmological argument
17:15 is known as Kalam Cosmological Argument now,
17:17 what is a cosmological argument,
17:18 why atheists are so fascinated by it?
17:20 And why they wrestling with it?
17:22 Well, cosmological argument
17:23 is essentially an argument based on existence itself.
17:27 I mean it goes back all the way to Aristotle,
17:31 the first original cosmological arguments.
17:33 But essentially why is there something rather than nothing,
17:36 that's the way a Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz putted,
17:39 a German philosopher mathematician.
17:41 So why is there things existence
17:43 instead of non existing.
17:44 And the way that William Lane Craig
17:46 phrases aces his arguments, that's very simple he says,
17:50 "Everything that has a beginning has a cause,"
17:53 then he goes on to say,
17:55 "science has proven that universe has a beginning."
17:58 Therefore the universe must have a cause.
18:01 So the universe consists of matter, time, energy,
18:06 and space and something outside of time,
18:09 matter, energy and space had to create the universe.
18:14 It's very interesting.
18:15 So what valid candidates are there
18:16 where there is either abstract objects like numbers,
18:19 sets and theories or there is God
18:23 who is not bound by matter, space, time and energy.
18:27 Now numbers, sets and theories
18:28 don't have any cosmos powers like just
18:30 because you have a mathematical equation on a piece of paper.
18:32 It doesn't make a car work. Right.
18:34 You have to have the causal identity.
18:35 God is the only causal identity that isn't bound
18:38 by space, time matter and energy.
18:41 And this is kind of like just the cosmological.
18:43 Yeah it's a just of that,
18:44 I mean it tends to sound sophisticated
18:46 but if you really, really focus on and think about it,
18:48 it's not as complicated as it really sounds.
18:50 You have to just focus on it for a little bit.
18:53 Well, since we are talking about philosophy
18:55 one of the things that modern philosophers like to say,
18:59 postmodern philosophers like to say
19:01 is that truth is relative, there is no absolute truth.
19:04 So God could exist in your world
19:06 but He doesn't exist in my world
19:07 and there is no such things absolute truth.
19:09 Now, I know you know,
19:10 philosophers are moving beyond to post postmodern
19:12 but you know, for the sake of I'm talking about this.
19:16 What do you have to say about absolute truth?
19:18 Relativism. You know,
19:20 it's funny because the post modern world view,
19:24 you first have to define
19:25 what the modern world view is, right.
19:27 The modern world view really
19:28 was given birth by Rene Descartes,
19:30 he is a French philosopher,
19:32 he was actually a Christian for that matter.
19:35 He is the one that said "I think
19:36 therefore I am." Right.
19:39 He believed in rational thought.
19:41 He was known as the father of Rationalism.
19:43 Where he thought that you could prove
19:45 things in absolute certainty.
19:48 Well, postmodernism is a response
19:50 to that where they don't believe
19:53 that you could look at things with absolute certainty
19:55 because everyone has biases, everyone has perspectives,
19:57 everyone has experiences
20:00 that change their view of the world.
20:03 So they take it to another extreme
20:05 saying based on our biases, we can experience truth.
20:08 The only issue with postmodernism
20:10 when they say you know,
20:12 we don't know what truth is, truth is relative.
20:15 And they completely ignore the objective is the fact
20:19 that they are using an objective truth
20:22 to get rid of an objective truth.
20:23 Its self refuting, it's like trying to pull
20:26 yourself up by your own bootstraps.
20:28 That's impossible, because if you are saying,
20:30 there is no such thing as truth,
20:32 you could ask him the questions so.
20:33 It's an absolute statement. Yeah, is that true?
20:35 So you are saying is that true?
20:36 But you just said, there is no such thing as true,
20:37 but you just said, if that's not true
20:39 then I shouldn't even listen to it, so its self refuting.
20:42 So it constantly that the stronger you try
20:44 to destroy the idea of absolute truth,
20:48 every time you hit at it,
20:49 it hits right back at you. Yeah.
20:50 And its kind of like the whole causal truth,
20:52 all truth is relative.
20:54 If all truth is relative, that means that the truth,
20:58 that all truth is all relative is also relative.
21:01 So its non-consequential, it doesn't matter.
21:03 Yeah, it doesn't matter. So in other words,
21:04 its just literally going circles, it will never arrive.
21:07 What' amazing about that is that it allows
21:10 for an alternative philosophical position
21:12 because if truth is relative
21:14 you know, you can believe that,
21:15 but then there also can be the opposite.
21:17 Right. Yeah.
21:18 And so I mean that's a good ledge
21:20 for Adventist to get in.
21:21 Now let's get practical.
21:22 As I think the audience, some of our audience,
21:24 their heads might be spinning with all these words,
21:26 all these concepts. Let's get practical.
21:27 Ezequiel, what about the average person's hit list?
21:30 It doesn't really matter.
21:32 I mean you believe in God,
21:33 may be I don't believe in God.
21:35 The most important things are we're nice to each other
21:37 and that we respect each other.
21:38 And that does have some very common argument.
21:41 Where do we even begin to answer this question?
21:43 Well, I think that's true, you know,
21:44 we do need to be nice to each other,
21:45 and respect each other.
21:46 I think the only thing with that argument
21:49 is that when people ultimately make it,
21:51 they are screaming as tolerance
21:54 being the ultimate virtue.
21:56 The issue is we don't believe
21:58 that tolerance is the ultimate virtue.
22:00 For example, the widow burning in India,
22:03 Christians stopped that because
22:04 they thought it was evil.
22:05 Now the whole world looked at them
22:06 and say yeah that's wrong.
22:07 To burn a widow because of that, right.
22:11 So ultimately the question
22:12 I would ask in this situation is based on the evidence,
22:17 lets say I mean, we both tried to be fair
22:21 both atheists and Christians,
22:22 I say there is a 50% chance of being Christian,
22:24 there is a 50% of Christianity is not sure.
22:26 Let's try to be fair, right.
22:28 So let's say what we really gain and lose if we are wrong.
22:31 As Christians, I believe
22:33 that I have a happy fulfilled life.
22:34 So if I die and God does not exist,
22:36 I will never know.
22:37 So ultimately I don't really lose anything.
22:39 But think about this from an atheist perspective.
22:42 Let's say if the atheist is wrong
22:44 and Christianity is true and they die,
22:47 and they ultimately find out
22:48 that the Christianity was true.
22:50 The Christian gains everything
22:53 and the atheist loses everything.
22:55 This is known as Pascal's Wager.
22:57 Pascal was a brilliant French philosopher, Blaise Pascal.
23:01 He is actually known as the father of the barometer.
23:04 Pascal's triangle, mathematical concept
23:07 and also even a primitive
23:10 computer back in the 16th century,
23:12 well not the 16th century past that.
23:14 But it's pretty amazing what he could do at that point.
23:16 So the concept that as a Christian,
23:18 if you believe in God, you have nothing to lose. Yeah.
23:20 But if you don't believe in God
23:22 and He is there and He eventually exist,
23:26 then you can lose it lot. Exactly.
23:28 That's an interesting concept.
23:29 So what are the non-- the arguments
23:33 towards the nonexistence of God.
23:36 Ultimately I mean we talked about one of them
23:38 is about the lack of evidence
23:40 which I don't think that's the case at all
23:42 especially I mean one of the strongest argument
23:44 is the theological argument.
23:47 Say it again. Theological argument.
23:49 Theological argument, what does that mean?
23:51 All that means is the argument based on order, right.
23:54 So the fact that we have an orderly universe,
23:56 therefore we should have something
23:58 that is set in order.
24:00 Let me use an illustration to make this point.
24:02 Imagine that we were at my room
24:03 and I had a book shelves all over the room.
24:06 But there is no books, all the books are in the living room.
24:08 And we thought to ourselves, you know what,
24:09 we need to put all these in alphabetical order,
24:11 but let's go grab some lunch
24:13 and we'll come back and laugh,
24:15 we will hit this with a full stomach
24:17 because you know, I am hungrier right now.
24:19 So we decide and we go along,
24:20 we come back and also we look at the books
24:22 and they're in alphabetical order.
24:24 And we think to ourselves, oh wow man,
24:26 that must have been some tornado or some earthquake.
24:29 No that's not what we think, right.
24:30 We normally assume, oh man,
24:32 someone must have come in here
24:33 and set them in alphabetical order,
24:34 because that doesn't happen at a chaos
24:36 something set in order.
24:37 Somebody with the compacity
24:38 to reason to look at the letter,
24:41 the details and be able to maneuver.
24:43 And the theological argument falls in different levels.
24:45 At the level of the universe
24:47 where there are these laws that are so finely tuned.
24:50 That's basically, mathematicians called it
24:52 astronomical absurdity to believe
24:54 that it could have just happened by chance
24:56 and even at the DNA level, the DNA level,
25:00 its complicated grammar and its actually language,
25:03 its almost like computer science.
25:06 Okay, how do you have from the very top
25:08 to the bottom shelf order
25:10 and believe that it came out of disorder.
25:12 When both of it is super ultra complicated,
25:15 especially when you layered it in top of each other
25:17 and you think about the possibilities
25:19 of both being put together.
25:21 It's absurd. Right.
25:23 Now Ezequiel, what about the young person
25:25 looking at this program who has heard our discussion,
25:28 compelling, interesting may be new ideas.
25:31 What message would you give in 30 seconds?
25:35 What message would you give to a young person
25:37 who is watching this program,
25:38 who wants a stronger assurance in their belief in God?
25:43 I would say, you know,
25:45 think hard and look even harder.
25:48 I think ultimately the problem
25:49 is that we're usually like Pontius Pilate,
25:52 you know, where we ask the question
25:53 what is truth and we walk away
25:54 before Jesus even gives an answer.
25:57 I think ultimately people are more willing
25:58 to ask questions than to look for truth,
26:00 because looking for truth actually takes effort.
26:03 And I think that if anyone is young
26:05 and they are actually trying to figure out these answers,
26:07 it's important to look and look really hard you know,
26:11 to give it all you got. Awesome.
26:13 Well, I feel smarter just after all this discussion
26:16 and Ezequiel I didn't know you had
26:18 that much depth of knowledge
26:19 if you like I have to respect you now a little bit more
26:21 but I do thank you for coming on our show
26:23 and blessing us with these ideas and concepts.
26:25 Thanks for coming. Thanks for honoring me.
26:28 Maybe today you are a person watching this program
26:31 and you wondered wow,
26:32 I never thought of these concepts before,
26:34 these are new ideas.
26:35 I remember knocking on doors in Vancouver,
26:36 British Columbia and speaking to a lady and I asked her.
26:41 Aren't you interested,
26:42 aren't you curious to know what truth is?
26:45 And she looks at me and she says no.
26:47 And I say is why aren't you interested
26:50 in finding discovering truth.
26:52 And she says because I am afraid
26:55 of what the answers might be.
26:57 And may be today you are young person
26:59 who as Ezequiel mentioned
27:01 going through the Pontius Pilate experience,
27:04 we get asking hard questions.
27:06 But you are not willing to receive those answers.
27:08 We want to encourage you to take a deeper look
27:10 into the word of God to ask the hard questions,
27:13 but also be willing to receive those very compelling answers.
27:18 We want to encourage you to recognize
27:19 that Christianity doesn't
27:21 have to be an emotional rush merely
27:24 but you as a young adult can have intelligent reasons
27:27 why you believe in God
27:28 and you can through your personal life
27:31 and also through your conversation with other show
27:33 that you do have a reason
27:36 to believe in the existence of God.
27:38 And I think that God is gonna bless you
27:40 as you continue to explore truth,
27:42 so continue in your journey.
27:45 Don't give up, ask the hard questions,
27:48 continue investigating,
27:49 continue asking the hard questions.
27:51 And I guarantee that when you come
27:53 to your discovery of truth you would not be disappointed.
27:57 God bless you, thanks for joining us till next time.


Home

Revised 2014-12-17