Participants: John Lomacang (Host), John Stanton
Series Code: HCL
Program Code: HCL170004A
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00:01 Hello, friends, grab your Bible and a friend
00:02 and sit back as we explore God's word together 00:05 on this edition of House Calls. 00:23 Welcome to House Calls. 00:25 The program that we believe 00:28 is the most important thing on television right now 00:30 or else we wouldn't really be on it. 00:34 Good to have you, John. It's good to be here. 00:36 I tell you whenever we get together, 00:37 it's praise the Lord we can, 00:40 we've been working together so long 00:42 that we kind of know each other 00:43 and the thinking even aspects of, 00:46 of where we're at. 00:47 Well, we actually kind of knew that 00:49 before we ever started the program 00:50 which is one of the reasons this program exists. 00:52 Because we said, you know, 00:54 we are on the same wavelength a lot of times 00:55 and so, anyway, I think it shows up here. 00:58 Praise the Lord. 01:00 And so we would encourage you to get your Bibles 01:02 and join us for a thoughtful hour 01:04 in studying God's word together. 01:06 This program is made up of not only the topics 01:09 and we're gonna begin a new topic today 01:11 called, "Discipleship". 01:13 Not membership, not fellowship, 01:16 not friendship, but discipleship. 01:18 What does it mean to be a disciple? 01:22 And we're gonna look at that not only from the New Testament 01:24 but also from the Old Testament perspective. 01:27 Because the Lord has always wanted us to be more 01:29 than we thought we can be. 01:31 And there is a method by which our own growth 01:34 and use in ministry is made possible. 01:37 And discipleship is significant 01:39 when it comes to who you become in Christ. 01:42 Before we go in letting, letting you know 01:45 where to send your questions and comments, 01:47 we always believe it's important to pray 01:49 and ask for the Lord's leading. 01:51 And John is always the on-air designated one 01:53 who prays. 01:55 So, John, pray for us. Thank you. 01:56 Father in Heaven, 01:57 again we ask for Your Spirit to be here with us 02:00 as we study Your word. 02:01 We cannot understand the things of God 02:04 unless Your Spirit tells us and teaches us 02:08 what You're doing here through Your word, 02:10 and so we pray that You would be here with us 02:13 and speak to each person 02:14 listening and viewing this program, 02:15 in Jesus' name, amen. 02:17 Amen. 02:19 Thank you so much for that prayer, John, 02:20 we really appreciate it. 02:22 This topic is gonna be an exciting one 02:24 but before we do anything 02:26 we get into our Bible questions. 02:27 That's right. 02:28 Bible questions are so important, 02:30 we always thank you for sending those questions and comments. 02:32 And if we you have any of that, you would like to send, 02:36 send those questions and comments 02:38 to housecalls@3abn.org. 02:40 That's housecalls@3abn.org, 02:43 and we're sure you'll appreciate it. 02:47 What do you have today, John? I know you have a question. 02:49 Yeah, I've got a question here from David. 02:53 And he says, what does the Bible say 02:55 about giving testimony in places 02:57 where a believer in Christ feels here 02:59 she isn't allowed to grow his or her convictions 03:03 of the Bible, 03:04 like being part of a circle of meditation in school? 03:08 Could it be rightly justified to desire to change schools? 03:15 So we have to infer a few things from this. 03:19 It sounds like the school is not allowing them 03:24 to give a testimony to express their convictions. 03:27 But more than that, 03:29 they probably have some wide differences of opinion 03:31 in regard to those convictions. 03:34 The one text that comes to mind, John, 03:36 is the one where Jesus send, He's sending out His disciples 03:41 and He says, "I'm sending you out as lambs 03:44 among wolves." 03:47 Jesus knows that the gospel was going to, 03:51 be going to all the world under duress. 03:56 So in many respects I would advocate for someone 03:59 to share their faith in areas where the gospel is needed. 04:06 And I'm just speaking in practical terms here 04:08 at this point. 04:10 But in some cases where it becomes oppressive, 04:13 say in a school that you have to attend, 04:15 or a place you have to work or something to not, 04:18 to be shut down and to not be allowed to, 04:23 more than not be allowed to express your opinions, 04:25 but when you express your opinions to be, 04:27 to come under great scrutiny. 04:29 I would say that, yes, there, I don't think there's something 04:33 that we need to subject ourselves too. 04:36 It's one of the reasons 04:38 why the Seventh-day Adventist Church has 04:39 the largest Protestant parochial school system 04:42 in the world 04:44 is because we believe 04:45 that people should be able to grow up 04:47 in an environment that is conducive 04:48 to allowing them to share their faith 04:50 and express their growth in Christ 04:53 and what Christ means to them 04:55 without having to be under duress. 04:57 And so it's one of the things 04:59 that we believe in as Seventh-day Adventist 05:02 that our church is very strong 05:04 and that education isn't just a knowledge of the arts, 05:09 or knowledge of sciences, or mathematics, 05:13 but it includes the whole person, 05:15 it's a holistic approach to our education system. 05:18 So I don't know exactly what David is going through 05:21 but it could be, yes, that he may need to look 05:23 to move elsewhere 05:25 where he can feel less under duress 05:28 to be able to share his faith and things. 05:30 Yet, there are some 05:32 that do advocate or do take the position 05:34 that when they're amongst people 05:35 that don't know the gospel or haven't heard the gospel 05:37 that it's great opportunity to share their faith. 05:40 And so sometimes God calls us into those situations as well. 05:44 I don't know where they are 05:45 or where David is in his education either, 05:48 it could be that he's in college or something, 05:51 maybe there are no opportunities 05:52 for a school system 05:56 that is supportive of his beliefs, 05:58 but we are called regardless, 06:00 and I think you know this too, John, 06:02 that we're to share our faith wherever we go. 06:05 There may be limits to that, 06:07 but sharing doesn't mean just with words. 06:11 A loving kind of Christian that is encouraging, 06:16 that is positive can be a larger or greater testimony 06:20 than someone that tells the facts, 06:22 the intellectual facts about the gospel. 06:24 That's right. 06:26 So I think there's that aspect to consider too, 06:27 so hopefully you know, I've covered a few areas 06:29 that David may be able to think about here 06:31 and his decision is to where he might go from here. 06:34 Okay, thank you for that. Yeah. 06:36 That's more along the lines of counsel 06:38 to give somebody insight to what the future holds 06:41 and how the Lord could lead and guide 06:43 in that particular venture for the future. 06:49 Todd from Kentucky, Todd sent us a snail mail. 06:53 Says, "Please help me with this. 06:58 I've heard several teachers say 06:59 Christ is going to destroy the wicked 07:01 at the second coming or a.k.a. rapture, 07:06 and that is the visible snatching way of the church. 07:10 But I can't find it, 07:12 the closest I can get to it is 2 Thessalonians 2:8. 07:16 Let's stop by looking at 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 07:19 and I'll share with you another couple of scriptures 07:21 that will give you some support in that area. 07:26 Okay. 07:29 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 07:31 and I have it here in front of me. 07:33 It says, "And the lawless..." 07:35 Here I am, okay. 07:37 Those who appreciate this text, here it is, okay. 07:43 And, here we are, okay, 07:47 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 07:51 "And then the lawless one will be revealed, 07:54 whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth 07:58 and destroy with the brightness of His coming." 08:02 That is in fact speaking particularly 08:05 about the man of sin, 08:07 and the man of sin 08:09 in fact speaks of the deception 08:13 or is connected to deception that 2 Thessalonians refers to, 08:18 let no one deceive you by any means that, 08:21 that they will not come 08:22 unless there comes a falling away first. 08:23 The man of sin is connected to that. 08:26 But he, that is speaking particularly of the man of sin 08:31 but to give you a broader view, go to Jeremiah 25. 08:37 In Jeremiah 25. 08:40 You see the clear suggestion is, 08:42 one of the reasons why 08:45 the wicked will be destroyed 08:46 by the brightness of the coming of the Lord 08:48 is they have not been given immortality, 08:52 they don't have immortality. 08:53 So they cannot withstand 08:55 who shall stand in the evil day, 08:57 they cannot stand, who shall be able to stand, 09:00 they won't be able to stand. 09:02 Jeremiah 25:33. 09:08 I'll start with verse 31. 09:12 "A noise will come to the ends of the earth, 09:16 for the Lord has a controversy with the nations, 09:20 He will plead His case with all flesh." 09:23 And here is the text, 09:25 "He will give those who are wicked to the sword," 09:28 says the Lord. 09:30 That is when He returns 09:31 because He returns with the sword of the Spirit, 09:35 which is the Word of God. 09:37 But he says in verse 32, thus says the Lord of hosts, 09:40 "Behold, disaster shall go forth 09:43 from nation to nation, 09:44 and a great whirlwind shall be raised up 09:47 from the farthest parts of the earth. 09:50 And verse 33, 09:52 "And at that day the slain of the Lord 09:55 shall be from one end of the earth 09:57 even to the other end of the earth. 10:00 They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried, 10:05 they shall become refuse on the ground." 10:09 In another words, when that comes, 10:11 the wicked are going to be dead everywhere. 10:13 And the reason 10:15 why they're going to be dead everywhere is 10:17 as Matthew talks about there are two categories, 10:20 the sheep on the right hand, the goats on the left. 10:24 The sheep will be gathered into the barn 10:27 that is into the harvest, they'll be gathered in, 10:30 and I'll use the wheat here, 10:31 the wheat will be gathered into the harvest 10:34 because they are the wheat, 10:36 but the tears which also is represented by the goat 10:38 will be gathered and bound in bundles to burn, 10:42 so you see clearly. 10:43 And when the Lord comes back 10:44 with the brightness of His coming, 10:46 the Bible says, "A fiery stream 10:49 shall issue and come forth from before Him." 10:52 A fiery stream, 10:53 that's the glory of His second coming, 10:56 that is the fire that as Peter says, 10:58 "The day that comes shall burn them up, 11:01 the day that comes it's burning as an oven." 11:03 Do you have that one in Peter? 11:06 But where I want to go to now 11:08 is the reference for the suggestion I made 11:10 in Revelation, let's go to Revelation now. 11:13 Revelation 6, 11:15 what will the wicked be doing on that day? 11:18 That will cause them to be... 11:25 That will cause them to be fearful 11:26 of the coming of the Lord. 11:28 Notice what the Bible says, Revelation 6:15, 11:35 "And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, 11:39 the commanders, the mighty men, 11:41 every slave, and every free man, 11:45 hid themselves in the caves 11:47 and in the rocks of the mountains, 11:49 and said to the rocks and the mountains, fall on us, 11:52 that's that destruction, 11:54 and hide us from the face of Him 11:56 who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb, 12:00 for the great day of His wrath has come 12:04 and who is able to stand." 12:07 So the wrath of God 12:08 will be poured out on those who are alive. 12:12 That is the wicked that are alive, 12:14 and that's why when the Bible speaks about the second death 12:17 even if you were, 12:21 even if you never die before the coming of the Lord, 12:23 you will experience the first death. 12:26 And that's why the Bible always refers to the wicked 12:28 who are ultimately destroyed as this is the second death. 12:33 Some wicked people have already died. 12:35 They'll come up in the second resurrection 12:37 to be destroyed in the lake of fire, 12:40 but the wicked that'd be alive when Jesus comes 12:42 will be slain by the brightness of His coming 12:45 and that's in 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 12:49 pretty much. 12:51 Yeah, I think one of the confusing things 12:52 in regard to the secret rapture 12:54 is those that pick and choose scriptures from the Bible 12:56 to support that 12:57 are confusing the two times that He will come, you know, 13:02 the Bible is clear that there is a second coming. 13:04 That's right. 13:05 And at the second coming, 13:07 there will be a resurrection of the saints. 13:08 That's right. 13:10 But also says that there will be a third coming 13:11 which is after the thousand years 13:14 for the judgment 13:16 where the judgment seat of God is set 13:18 and all must appear before that judgment seat 13:20 those who have done evil. 13:24 And those two passages, those two events, 13:27 and the descriptions of them in scripture are confused 13:31 as bookends of a seven years of tribulation 13:36 which is what the secret rapture theorizes. 13:40 Where there is a secret rapture, 13:41 at the beginning the church is taken up 13:43 and they're out of, away from the tribulation, 13:45 the tribulation happens for seven years 13:47 and at the end Jesus comes down with the saints 13:51 but the truth is, is that the saints go up 13:53 at the second coming with Christ 13:55 in a visible second coming, 13:57 and that at the end of the thousand years 13:59 there's a third coming of Christ 14:01 with the saints in the New Jerusalem 14:02 that sits down on the earth 14:04 and that's described in Revelation 21. 14:07 So this is the confusion that sometime is, 14:09 sometimes is there, 14:11 hence there are passages throughout scripture 14:12 as you mentioned from Jeremiah 14:14 that speak of the coming of the Lord, 14:16 which one is it? 14:18 Where is it, where is it placed? 14:19 And understanding those events 14:21 can be a little bit tricky sometimes, 14:23 but if you put all the text together 14:24 you will find very clearly there's no secret rapture, 14:27 there is no time where Jesus comes 14:28 but He doesn't appear. 14:30 That's right. 14:31 There's a rapture of the saints 14:34 which is described in 1 Thessalonians 4, 14:37 catching them up to meet them in the air, 14:39 to meet Him in the air, 14:40 but Christ is visible in the second coming 14:42 and He meets them there. 14:43 There's also a resurrection at that same time 14:47 that 1 Thessalonians 4 describes. 14:51 And so I think some of this confusion 14:54 comes from dispensational theories 14:57 that have happened 14:58 and it came out in the 1600-1700s 15:03 that have become very confusing today 15:05 because of books published, 15:07 in fact it goes back even to Darby and Scofield. 15:10 That's right, John N. Darby. 15:11 And so the secret rapture, 15:12 there is no secret about the rapture 15:14 we agree with a rapture, a catching up of the saints, 15:17 but usually the word rapture is used in the context 15:20 of a secret rapture 15:21 and that's just that he won't find it because it's not here. 15:23 That's right, it's not in scripture. 15:25 And so to add another component to this 15:27 because there's another question 15:28 somebody asked me, John, here and let me just read this 15:30 to kind of cap, to connect it together 15:33 because these are two pretty much 15:34 along the same lines. 15:35 It says, "Dear pastors, 15:37 am I to understand that at the second resurrection 15:39 the wicked die at the brightness of God, 15:43 therefore they died 15:44 before the fire came down from heaven." 15:46 Oh, that's not the case, they tried to, 15:49 and I could understand it, 15:50 so thank you for the question so we can clarify this. 15:52 The wicked that are destroyed at the brightness 15:54 of the coming of the Lord is when Jesus comes back, 15:57 we'll look at the second coming, 15:59 we're waiting for Him. 16:00 That's what's going to happen when Jesus returns. 16:03 He's already come and He walked the earth, 16:04 but when He comes again, 16:06 the brightness will destroy the wicked. 16:07 And they will be dead for a thousand years. 16:10 And then at the end of the thousand years, 16:12 they are resurrected in the second resurrection. 16:15 John 5:28-29, the Bible says, 16:18 "Do not marvel at this for the hour is coming 16:21 in which all that are in the graves 16:24 will hear His voice and come forth." 16:26 They that have done good to the resurrection of life, 16:29 they that have done evil to the resurrection 16:31 of condemnation. 16:33 The King James Version says, "Resurrection of damnation," 16:36 meaning they're going to be condemned 16:39 in that second resurrection. 16:40 Revelation 20:6 says, 16:42 "Blessed and holy is he 16:43 who has part in the first resurrection 16:46 over such, the second death has no power." 16:49 That's right. 16:51 So the second resurrection is the second death 16:53 and they don't occur at the same time. 16:55 And so in context to that, let me read to you, 16:59 to give you what's going to happen 17:01 at the second coming of Jesus. 17:03 Psalm 50:3, 17:07 I'm going to read down to verse 5. 17:10 Psalm 50:3, "Our God shall come, 17:13 and shall not keep silent, a fire shall devour before him, 17:19 and it shall be very tempestuous 17:22 all around about him. 17:23 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, 17:28 that he may judge his people. 17:30 Gather my saints together to me, 17:33 those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 17:37 Let the heavens declare his righteousness, 17:39 for God himself is judge." 17:42 So when the Lord comes, He's not going to be silent. 17:45 A fire shall issue and come forth from before Him, 17:48 that is the brightness of His coming 17:50 that will devour the wicked. 17:52 And the unfortunate thing is, 17:55 John, sad part about that is that's just the beginning. 17:59 They lay on the ground, they are not lamented, 18:00 nor gathered, nor buried as we just read in Jeremiah 25. 18:04 Nobody is there, there are no funeral parlors, 18:06 there are no funeral services, there are no burial, 18:09 there is nobody mourning them, they will not be lamented, 18:12 or gathered, or buried, 18:14 but they will be refuse on the ground. 18:17 Can you imagine that sight, John? 18:21 Yeah, but my imagination I think fall short of 18:23 how it's going to be, 18:24 but it's just an amazing thought. 18:25 If you were to drive around the world 18:28 and just look everywhere you see fallen humanity 18:32 just laying there 18:34 and rotting for thousand years just 18:38 and when the thousand years the earth would have been... 18:42 Somebody showed a time lapse 18:43 once I saw this on history channel, 18:45 so much over the time lapse, 18:47 if all humans died from some kind of, 18:50 they call it some kind of atomic blast, 18:52 they don't use the word atomic, 18:54 I think plutonium blast would only kill humans, 18:57 this kind of whatever they use 18:58 but it didn't destroy buildings. 19:01 It only killed humans, not even animals. 19:03 And they showed how the planet will become overrun, 19:05 buildings will just start to decay and fall apart. 19:09 Wherever, you know, we cut our lawns, 19:11 all of a sudden wild grass will grow 19:14 and trees will start growing out of anywhere 19:15 and break through, 19:17 and they said everything around us 19:18 will just begin to fall apart. 19:19 And I could imagine a thousand years 19:21 with the earth unattended, can you imagine the decay 19:25 and just a natural process of degradation 19:28 that takes place at the end of the thousand years, 19:31 that's why the Bible says, 19:32 they become refuse on the ground, clothing strewn, 19:35 they're just rot, bodies everywhere, 19:37 skeletals that have just become... 19:40 This is just an awesome sight. 19:43 So why would you reject Jesus? 19:45 Yeah, yeah. 19:48 I have a quick question here from Carlos. 19:52 Okay. 19:54 And he was watching the program 19:55 on the day that he sent this question in. 19:58 And he says in John 6:65, God calls people to Him. 20:01 Why would He call people who would fall away? 20:08 I think there are some different theories out there 20:11 as to predestination. 20:14 Okay. 20:16 And I think in some cases 20:18 that word is very misunderstood. 20:21 Because in Titus, Paul says very clearly 20:24 that the salvation of God has appeared to all men. 20:26 Everyone has an opportunity to be saved. 20:30 Christ has put off His second coming 20:33 as we just talked about 20:34 so that no one would have to perish. 20:37 So this time of probation 20:38 so to speak for mankind is being left open 20:41 so that everybody can hear the gospel. 20:43 God is inclusive, He's trying to get people in, 20:45 not keep them out. 20:47 And so this whole idea of predestination 20:49 that some are going to be lost from the moment they're born, 20:53 they're predestined to be lost, 20:55 that comes from 20:57 some of the Calvinistic teachings of the past, 20:59 it's just not biblical. 21:02 And so what Jesus is saying in John 6:65 is 21:07 more in regard to those who are following Him, 21:11 and those who do not believe but were still following Him 21:14 and that how God would not grant them 21:18 full access to Jesus 21:21 because of that ulterior motive, 21:25 Jesus wouldn't be fully manifested 21:26 or understood by them 21:28 because of their rejection of Him. 21:30 So what it's saying there, there are many 21:33 who are in the world who profess Christ, 21:35 but don't really follow Him. 21:38 And so I think their destiny depends more on their decision 21:43 and their commitment to follow Christ 21:45 and receiving His salvation 21:47 that it does Christ holding them off 21:50 or not allowing them to come to Him for salvation, okay. 21:54 So there's no predestination here going on. 21:58 It's really the decision for us to accept salvation 22:02 or to be lost because we rejected is up to us. 22:07 It's not up to us, we can't save ourselves, 22:10 but certainly Jesus saves us 22:12 and we must go to Him for that salvation 22:14 if we're going to receive it. 22:16 You know, predestination as you said 22:17 is something that's misunderstood. 22:19 Jesus didn't set the world 22:21 in order like us spinning a cork 22:24 and just let it stay there and continue to rotate 22:26 based on the draw of gravity or the magnetic fields, 22:31 He didn't set the world in motion and just leave it 22:33 and decide to go someplace else 22:35 and He'll come back whenever He's ready, 22:37 but the word predestined is used 22:39 in the Bible at least four times. 22:41 In Romans 8:29, you find this predestination 22:46 that's talked about here is not predestined 22:47 in the sense of controlling and manipulating, 22:50 but He's made provision, that's the key. 22:52 Let me give you an example. 22:54 If the plane was in the terminal 22:56 and someone bought you a ticket, 22:58 they predestined you to take a trip 23:01 but you've got to accept the journey, 23:03 if you accept the ticket and the map 23:06 and all the amenities that they have laid out for you, 23:09 then you're predestined to have a good time. 23:12 They predestined all these things, 23:14 the place you're going to stay, the hotel reservations, 23:16 the flight, they paid for your first class tickets, 23:19 they paid for everything, that's all set, 23:22 that's predestined, it's determined right there. 23:25 And so you say, well, okay, if I accept this, what happens, 23:28 then they begin to outline. 23:31 The predestination that the Bible talks about 23:33 is the Lord has made it possible for us, 23:36 Romans 8:29, 23:38 "For whom he foreknew, 23:41 he also predestined to be conformed 23:43 to the image of his son, 23:44 that he might be the first born among many brethren. 23:48 Moreover whom he predestined these he also called." 23:53 Romans 8:30, 23:54 "Whom he called these he also justified, 23:58 whom he justified these he also glorified." 24:02 And so the Lord is saying, 24:03 if you accept the predestined plan 24:05 I have in place, 24:07 you'll be not only sons 24:09 but you will be called, 24:11 you'll be justified, you'll be glorified. 24:14 Once you step into my plan, 24:16 these are the things that's going to happen, 24:18 that's the predestination, 24:19 not the manipulation of your life, not like, 24:21 I don't want to be saved, please no. 24:23 Yeah. 24:25 That's not what predestination is. 24:26 And that's what happens in Ephesians 1:15, 24:29 "Having predestined us to adoption as sons 24:33 by Jesus Christ to Himself, 24:35 according to the good pleasure of His will." 24:38 So that's the whole Him, we want... 24:41 Oh, let me show you the text. 24:43 1 John 3, John, read that 24:44 unless you have one that you want to read. 24:46 No, 1 John 3. 1 John 3. 24:48 This is what happens 24:51 when you accept the predestined plan of God, 24:54 not the manipulation of God, 24:57 and it's something that works itself out gradually. 24:59 Okay? 25:00 What verses do you want me to read? 25:01 1 John 3:1 and then verse 2. 25:05 "Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, 25:09 that we should be called the children of God." 25:11 Okay, right. 25:13 What are we called? Children of God. 25:14 Okay, He predestined us to be sons. 25:18 If we accept Him, we're the children of God. 25:20 Keep going. 25:22 "Therefore the world does not know us 25:24 because it did not know Him." 25:26 And now look at this beautiful plan, verse 2. 25:27 "Beloved, now we are the children of God 25:31 and it's not yet been revealed what we shall be 25:33 but we know that when he is revealed 25:35 we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." 25:38 That's the text again. 25:40 Whom He predestined, in Romans 8:29, 25:44 whom He predestined He also called, 25:46 whom He called, He also justified, 25:48 whom He justified these He also glorified. 25:51 One day we will see ourselves in the glory 25:53 that He always knew we could be. 25:56 We know that when He appears we shall be like Him, 26:00 for we will see Him as He is, 26:02 He predestined us to be sons of God. 26:05 And I would include there in the text 26:09 the masculine and feminine is included in that passage 26:13 so it's not just saying sons, 26:15 but it's really talking about He's predestined us 26:17 to be children of God. 26:18 Once you accept Him, 26:20 He says now you haven't seen what you're going to look like 26:23 but I can guarantee you, 26:25 I've predestined you to be formed completely 26:28 to the image of the Son, you will be like Me, 26:31 for you'll see Me as I am. 26:33 There's another aspect to this too 26:35 is that some have said, 26:36 "Well, if God knows that someone's going to be lost, 26:39 why does He still work so hard to bring them in?" 26:43 You know, God has foreknowledge 26:47 but He hasn't predetermined our destiny. 26:50 Okay? Right. 26:51 Those are two different things, 26:53 and in this respect God is just, 26:55 He is faithful to us, 26:57 He's still determined and committed to give us 26:59 every opportunity to know Him, 27:01 to receive His salvation and to receive eternal life, 27:05 but that doesn't mean that He forces us to do that. 27:08 And so some will fall away, some who have come to know Him 27:11 will fall away and will be lost, 27:14 but He still gives them an opportunity. 27:16 I think... 27:18 think about a parent. 27:22 I think if a parent knew 27:23 ultimately what would happen with their child if it was bad, 27:27 they would still love that child 27:29 and do all they could to give them the opportunity. 27:35 And that's a parent, 27:38 but you know, we as parents don't have that foreknowledge, 27:41 we don't know 27:42 but to God, for God to actually know that 27:44 shows His great love 27:45 I think even to a greater extent 27:47 than we as parents. 27:49 True, we don't know these things 27:51 but the Lord knows, He sees us where we are 27:53 and where we can be. 27:55 Still He pursues us and wants to save us 27:57 and that's why it's a blessing. 27:58 And so when we fall away, 28:00 we talked about that in 2 Thessalonians, 28:02 that day will not come 28:03 unless there comes a falling away first, 28:05 some people are going to fall away, 28:07 Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 6:6, "If they fall away," 28:13 let me read verse 4, 28:14 "For it is impossible for those who once were enlightened, 28:18 and have tasted of the heavenly gift, 28:20 and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit 28:24 and have tasted the good word of God 28:27 and the powers of the age to come." 28:29 They tasted all that 28:30 they had samples of all of that. 28:32 Verse 6, "If they fall away to renew them 28:35 again to repentance 28:37 since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God 28:41 and put Him to an open shame." 28:42 What's happening there is, when people decide to fall away 28:46 and sadly, John, we've experienced 28:48 that as pastors, 28:50 there are some people that know the message inside out. 28:53 And we come up against the wall, 28:54 what could we tell them. 28:57 Some people know the message, what could we tell them? 29:00 And we say, well, we're praying for you 29:02 but like the prodigal son, 29:04 when some people walk away unlike the coin that was lost 29:09 and did not know it was lost, 29:11 the sheep that was lost and knew it was lost 29:13 but couldn't find its way home 29:15 and they went, and Jesus went to bring the sheep home, 29:17 they're the prodigal sons, who leave the father's house. 29:22 The father can't go get them, 29:24 because he made the choice to leave. 29:26 The father has to wait till he comes to his senses, 29:29 and the father is waiting to welcome him back. 29:31 So the Lord knows there are some, 29:33 there are some sons that are going to leave the home, 29:35 but by His grace as time goes on 29:37 and the spirit continues to work, 29:39 they will come to their senses and they'll go back 29:41 and the father will embrace them 29:43 and welcome them back into the fold. 29:45 Thank you for your questions and comments, 29:47 appreciate them very much. 29:48 If you have any more to send, 29:50 send those questions and comments 29:51 to House Calls, housecalls@3abn.org. 29:54 And we thank you very much 29:56 for all you do for this ministry. 29:59 That's housecalls@3abn.org. 30:02 John, a powerful topic you've chosen today, 30:04 "Discipleship". 30:06 You've done a lot of work on this one. 30:07 Yeah, I have 30:09 and as the Personal Ministries Director 30:12 for the conference that I work for, 30:13 part of my job is discipleship 30:15 and encouraging members 30:17 to get actively involved as disciples of Christ 30:20 in the work that he's doing in that local church. 30:24 It helps pastors as well 30:25 because a lot of people think 30:27 pastors are there to kind of drive the church business 30:29 and to get all the work done and to make things happen, 30:32 but really the pastor, 30:34 especially according to Ephesians 4, he is the, 30:37 one of the equipper trainers of the members, 30:40 the saints in ministry. 30:41 That's right. And his are... 30:43 Basically the success of the pastor 30:46 is more determined by the response of the members 30:49 in discipleship than it is 30:51 how good they are as a preacher. 30:53 Very good point. 30:55 And so discipleship itself 30:56 is built into the DNA of the church. 30:59 The church exists where disciples can come 31:04 grow in their faith and then, 31:07 then they share their faith with others 31:09 and it increases and grows the church in numbers. 31:12 And so, since that is the case 31:17 and in looking at what Jesus did with His disciples, 31:20 I think it's important to remember 31:22 that we are also disciples who have received a commission. 31:26 At some point he will get to the Great Commission 31:29 in Matthew 28, 31:32 but for now I just want to start off 31:34 by talking a little bit about discipleship 31:37 and its implications in regard to the church 31:40 and the church's success 31:42 in sharing the gospel with the world. 31:47 The church, every church has a life cycle, 31:49 and you've seen this life cycle before, John. 31:52 Every church has a life cycle whereby, you know, 31:56 the vision is established for a church plant, 32:00 goals are set, ministry begins to happen, 32:03 growth happens and then the danger zone, 32:07 you get to a danger zone which is this plateau, 32:10 where you start to kind of ride the wave 32:12 that you've already started, 32:14 and I think that's where we lose focus on discipleship. 32:18 You know, visioning, setting goals, doing ministry, 32:22 growing the church, those are all disciple words. 32:26 But when you get to maintenance mode, 32:28 this plateau that shifts in this maintenance mode 32:30 and on the other side of that is a slippery slope 32:33 into nostalgia and that where you polarize, 32:35 and then the death of the church. 32:37 Those are very anti-discipleship words. 32:41 To stay in this discipleship mode as a church, 32:43 and a critic structure that fosters 32:45 and builds discipleship 32:46 is really responsibility of the church 32:48 and its leadership, not just the pastor 32:50 but the elders of the church, deacons, deaconesses 32:52 all those who hold leadership positions 32:54 within the church. 32:56 I'm going to make a statement here 32:58 that is kind of the catapult 33:01 for all that we're going to talk about 33:03 in the next couple of programs. 33:04 Okay. And that is this. 33:07 If discipleship was done right in the church, 33:12 evangelism would largely take care of itself. 33:17 If discipleship was done right in the church, 33:20 if people embrace that, 33:21 and that was our focus on being disciples of Christ. 33:25 If that was done right in a church, in our churches, 33:28 evangelism would largely take care of itself. 33:31 You wouldn't have to talk about. 33:33 Well, we've got to gear up for a public meetings, 33:35 we got to get out there and send some flyers out 33:38 so you can generate some interest. 33:40 You know, what you would have are disciples 33:42 who are connecting with people outside the church, 33:44 they build relationships 33:45 they're intentional outside the church 33:47 and they would have people 33:49 who are interested in the gospel 33:50 and then the public meeting that you eventually have 33:53 or reaping meetings we call those 33:54 would have people filling the pews 33:56 to hear the gospel that it's already, 33:58 the seed is already been planted in them. 34:01 And so I'm serious when I say this, 34:03 we as a church have moved away from discipleship model, 34:06 the discipleship model that Christ intended 34:09 into a kind of a leadership kind of grandstand, 34:13 almost pastoral dependent model. 34:16 Yeah. 34:18 Which is not what you find in the Book of Acts. 34:20 That model does not exist in scripture. 34:22 The current model of pastoring that we have in the church. 34:25 You know, like you and I, we know sports 34:27 and we play basketball and baseball, some in football, 34:31 it's almost become like a football game, 34:34 they come to cheer on the players. 34:35 Yeah. 34:36 And, but they don't get any trophies, 34:38 they don't get any bonuses. 34:39 Yeah. 34:41 They're on the stands week to week, they don't, 34:42 and unfortunately, you know, we have to say who's to blame? 34:46 Us were to blame. That's right. 34:48 We can't blame the membership, we have to say, okay, you know, 34:52 when you got visions and goals in ministry and growth, 34:55 that plateau, you have to always remember 34:57 in every season that we talk about this 34:59 and we go back to the model of our sports, 35:01 there's a season, 35:03 because they cheer at the end of the championship, 35:06 everybody's won, 35:08 they go parade and they started all over again 35:12 and you know why? 35:14 Because they know if they skip a year, 35:17 if they skip a year, this is a powerful point. 35:21 If the sports teams decided we're not going to have 35:24 any NBA championships this year, 35:25 we're not going to have any football championships 35:27 this year, we're not going to have any NFL, 35:29 I mean hockey championships NHL, 35:31 we're going to skip a year, you know what happens? 35:34 The people plateau in their emotions. 35:37 And then they say, 35:39 boy, I remember the good old days 35:40 when we used to have championships, 35:41 you don't have many more games to go to, 35:45 doesn't look forward to one Football Sunday, 35:47 I mean, Super Bowl Sunday, 35:48 there's no Super Bowl Sunday this year 35:50 to get into nostalgia, to get into maintenance. 35:53 And they start saying, you know what? 35:55 Let's have our own football game. 35:56 Yeah. 35:57 And they start polarizing into small groups 35:59 that want to carry on the joy. 36:00 Every, or the whole focus becomes internal. 36:03 Yeah. 36:04 What is someone else doing? Yeah. 36:06 You know, and in fact a lot of the things you see 36:07 with a lot of these preachers that come out 36:09 and they focus on what people are dressed, 36:11 how they're dressing, and what they're wearing 36:13 and how they're not living up to the standards 36:15 and all that whole internal focus is happening 36:18 because they've lost the external focus. 36:20 Yeah, it becomes institutionalize. 36:22 Absolutely. 36:25 I'm going to tell a story 36:26 and this story has been impactful for me 36:29 which really has launched me, 36:31 not only just because of what I do 36:32 for at the conference level, 36:34 but it's helped me 36:36 really become excited about this topic. 36:39 Good. 36:40 There's a boy named Bobby and he was... 36:46 Every year, every summer he got to go to grandpa's, 36:48 grandma and grandpa's farm. 36:50 Love to go to grandma and grandpa's farm. 36:51 See the animals, hang out with grandma, grandpa, 36:53 it was that exciting thing, 36:55 but it only lasted for a couple of few days 36:58 and he was back at home 37:00 and he spent the rest of the summer at home 37:02 getting ready for school the next year. 37:04 Well, his parents would always tell him, 37:06 "Well, you know, Bobby, you're too little 37:09 to go stay with grandma and grandpa on their farm. 37:10 They've got a lot of work to do during the summer 37:13 and it's very difficult, you're too small, 37:17 you will get in the way 37:18 and they won't be able to do the work that's needed there. 37:20 You need to be able to be a help to grandpa 37:22 in working the farm. 37:24 But one year he didn't hear that from his parents, he said, 37:28 he heard, Bobby, you're old enough, 37:30 you gonna stay with grandma and grandpa 37:31 for a couple of months, 37:32 you can go and help out in the farm, 37:34 and he was so excited. 37:35 Mom and dad took him, 37:37 drove him to grandma and grandpa's farm, 37:39 dropped him off there. 37:41 They said, "Okay, we'll come back 37:42 and pick him up in a couple of weeks, 37:43 hopefully he'd be a big help to you 37:45 and he can learn a lot about what farming is really about 37:46 and grandpa said, "Oh, it will be thrilled 37:48 to have him here." 37:50 So they brought him in, he got settled in his room 37:52 and it came time for the evening to sleep, 37:54 and grandpa said, "Hey, Bobby, 37:56 you know, we have a lot to do tomorrow, 37:59 so you need to get your rest. 38:00 Don't stay up, don't get on your iPad 38:03 and on your phone, all that stuff, 38:05 get some sleep 38:06 and he listened to grandpa and he got to sleep that night. 38:09 Well, you know what happens 38:10 early in the morning out in a farm? 38:12 The roosters crow and life begins at sunrise. 38:16 And he was up early, 38:17 grandpa was there at the doorway, 38:18 Bobby, let's get up, it's time to get busy. 38:21 And so he showed him out, he showed him the barn, 38:24 he showed him how to milk the cows. 38:27 He was feeding the chickens, giving hay to the animals. 38:33 And then he had him do some tasks around the garden, 38:35 picking some of the weeds up, they were really busy. 38:38 Boy, Bobby was hungry 38:40 and he could smell this wonderful smell 38:43 coming from the kitchen, 38:44 grandma was cooking in the kitchen 38:47 and finally he heard that bell, 38:48 "Come on, guys, come in and eat." 38:50 And they went in and they're eating. 38:52 Oh, he just ate up as, you know, 38:54 he ate like he'd never eaten before. 38:56 And right about 40, 45 minutes after they began to eat 39:00 and he was full on his stomach, grandpa stood up and he said, 39:03 "Okay, Bobby, it's time to get to work." 39:07 And Bobby said, "grandpa, we've already been working, 39:11 haven't we been working all morning long." 39:14 And grandpa said, "Bobby, that's not work, 39:18 them is chores, the work," here's the point, 39:22 "the work is in the harvest field." 39:25 Not in the house? 39:27 Not around the house and in the barn. 39:31 As a disciple of Christ and as members of God's church, 39:36 what we do in the business of the church as elders, 39:39 as deacons, as deaconesses, as Sabbath school leaders, 39:42 all those things, them is chores. 39:44 Them is chores, I like that. 39:46 The work is out in the field. 39:48 The work begins when you leave the building 39:52 and you are empowered by the message you've heard, 39:54 by the people you meet 39:55 to go out and share the gospel with other people. 39:58 If all we're doing is hanging out with ourselves. 40:00 As all we're doing is doing the business 40:01 in the work of the church, 40:03 we're just involved in the chores 40:04 of maintaining the church, 40:06 that is maintenance mode to the fullest. 40:08 Right. 40:09 We've got to move out and beyond in our thinking 40:12 to get into the harvest field 40:14 and to begin to reach the people 40:18 that are starved for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 40:21 And that's left to the disciples 40:23 who are in fact laborers. 40:26 And we know, I think 40:27 we're living in a time right now, 40:28 John, where Christ said pray for laborers, 40:31 there aren't enough laborers in the field. 40:34 Pray for laborers that Christ that God will send laborers 40:37 into His harvest field and get involved in His work. 40:40 We as His disciples, 40:42 if all we're doing is the work of the church 40:44 and we're not laboring in the harvest field 40:45 we're not laborers, 40:47 we're just taking up space and doing chores in the church. 40:50 And so this whole, this whole commission of discipleship 40:53 and the Lord says, 40:55 "Go therefore and make disciples." 40:59 Do we misinterpret that, go therefore and make members? 41:03 You know, the word make actually in that passage 41:06 the word make as you know is not in the Greek. 41:10 Right. The word make's not there. 41:11 What it's saying is, you who are My disciples, 41:14 go out and disciple other people. 41:16 Right. 41:17 Be disciplers and discipling is not involved, 41:21 it does not involve just the chores of the church, 41:23 although some of that, the nurturing 41:24 and the mentoring that happens 41:26 within the church context is important 41:27 and we'll talk about that as we get further into this. 41:30 But our first task really is to connect with people 41:33 and to share our faith. 41:35 And you can't do that. 41:36 I've asked hands, a show of hands, 41:38 how many people in this church, 41:39 how many have mostly non-Adventist friends, 41:44 or non-Christian friends? 41:46 Most of the time very few hands go up. 41:48 We need to be more intentional 41:50 about making friends, building friendships 41:52 with people that don't know Jesus. 41:54 Only then, only then can we disciple someone, 41:59 and discipleship is not just by what we say by, by how we live. 42:03 That's right. 42:05 And it's not by what we know, as to how much we practice 42:08 what we know either, all these things. 42:10 Discipleship is bigger than we think it is. 42:13 Disciple isn't just a decision, I will follow Jesus. 42:17 Discipleship is something that we decide, we determine, 42:20 we commit to doing every single day of our lives. 42:23 So when Jesus said, follow me and I'll make you, 42:27 we have to, not just say fishers of men, 42:29 follow me and I will make you, 42:30 when I make you as He did to the disciples, 42:33 then He sent them out 42:35 know this, He called them disciples 42:37 when they were with Him, 42:38 but He called them apostles 42:40 when the New Testament church began. 42:41 Apostles are simply disciples who are sent. 42:43 Right, sent, go out. 42:45 I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 42:47 Go into the highways and hedges compel all men to come 42:51 and Peter and the apostles, and Paul and the apostles 42:54 they all recognize well, that my call is, 42:58 as Paul, he traveled to so many different cities 43:03 in Asia Minor and also in Asia. 43:05 The Corinthian church is one, 43:07 he established two Corinthian churches. 43:09 In the city of, 43:11 in Greece, in the city of Corinth, 43:14 he established two bodies of believers 43:16 but he was out planting 43:17 and speaking as an itinerant person everywhere, 43:21 he equipped the church 43:23 to carry on the work of bringing others in. 43:25 That's right. 43:27 And the Corinthian church was an amazing one. 43:28 Lot of conflicts for sure, 43:30 but discipleship was happening on a day by day basis, 43:34 not on a once a week basis, 43:36 discipleship is happening every day. 43:38 In the Book of Acts the Bible says, 43:39 "They broke bread from house to house every day." 43:42 They broke, that was a day by day responsibility, 43:45 they had fellowship, 43:46 and fellowship by the way should be, 43:48 should replace the word friendship. 43:50 Because the Bible doesn't talk about friendship, 43:52 it only talks about if you're friend of the world, 43:54 then you're enemy of God, but it talks about fellowship. 43:58 If we walk in the light as He is in the light, 44:02 we have fellowship with one another, 44:05 you got to walk in the light. 44:06 But this fellowship now, when you have fellowship 44:09 with people that are in the dark 44:10 you're fellowshipping, look at this carefully. 44:12 The fellowship of those who are in the dark 44:14 is not to create an allegiance 44:17 but to allow your light to reflect... 44:20 That's right. 44:21 So that people can be attracted to the light. 44:23 Someone once said, you cannot, you can lead a horse to water 44:27 but you can't make him drink. 44:28 I don't believe that, you can make him drink. 44:33 Take a block of salt and let him start licking it, 44:37 he'll drink, thus Jesus said, 44:39 "You are the salt of the earth." 44:42 That's right. 44:43 So discipleship, John, as you study this, 44:45 go back to that again, the cycle of the church. 44:47 I think I heard you say vision, often begin with a vision. 44:50 Talk about that? Yeah. 44:51 The vision is established for what that church will do 44:55 which is really Christ's vision 44:56 because He's the head of the church. 44:57 Right. 44:59 Goals are then set, 45:00 ministry begins to happen amongst the leadership 45:01 and in equipping and training of ministry 45:04 in the members, 45:06 growth then occurs as a result of that. 45:09 The danger it becomes when you hit a plateau. 45:12 The goal is to... 45:13 The objective is to stay on the side 45:15 of continuing to cast the vision, 45:16 continuing to do ministry, continue to grow, 45:19 but when maintenance happens, 45:20 you can slip off that other side like, 45:22 okay, things are getting to be done here 45:24 into maintenance, 45:25 nostalgia, polarization and then death. 45:28 So the four, so the four benefits then 45:30 is vision, goals, ministry, growth 45:33 and the people that grow, go back, give them the vision. 45:36 Yes. It's to cast the vision. 45:37 Cast it to the new people, here's the vision, goal, 45:41 same thing, you've heard the word franchise? 45:44 Sure. 45:45 The reason why franchises like McDonald's is everywhere 45:48 is because McDonald's has a vision which has goals, 45:51 which has a plan for growth, they don't call it ministry, 45:55 they call it staffing. 45:57 Or more so, how do we please our customers. 46:01 So they have vision goals, 46:03 what kind of attitude do we have 46:04 towards our customers. 46:06 Yeah, their ministry is their business. 46:07 Their business. How they get their business. 46:08 And then it leads to growth and when they grow 46:10 they start a franchise, they start a franchise 46:13 start a franchise, it keeps going. 46:14 So what does McDonald's been doing 46:15 for the last 35, 40 years? 46:18 Selling hamburgers, 46:19 selling burgers, selling French fries. 46:21 And it's still happening 46:22 because they have not lost the vision. 46:24 The danger with the church is, 46:25 we get a vision, we get those visions 46:27 almost on sporadic evangelistic basis 46:31 rather than a continuous basis which in fact is the purpose 46:34 that God always intended His church to have. 46:36 There's graph that, that I've seen this, 46:38 it's really effective how most churches organize 46:42 and how we should be organized 46:43 and it's basically, 46:45 a wheel with spokes going out to the tire, 46:49 and that tire 46:51 includes the various ministries of the church 46:53 so you'd have the... 46:58 Sabbath school, 47:00 or you'd have outreach ministry, 47:03 you'd have socials, 47:04 you have all these different things 47:05 the church does, 47:07 and both of the wheels 47:08 are very similar in that respect 47:10 but the hub is the key. 47:12 On one the hub is the worship service. 47:15 That's right. 47:16 Which is the way it's usually a structure 47:17 where people, the whole focus for the week 47:19 is getting that worship service and doing worship. 47:21 That's right. 47:23 That should not be the hub 47:24 of a thriving disciple oriented, 47:27 or disciple focused church. 47:28 The hub is evangelism. Right. 47:31 Worship is just one of the things, 47:33 the spokes that go out to the tire. 47:36 Worship is one of the things we do as a church, 47:38 but evangelism is the focus of the church, 47:41 getting the message out there through these various avenues 47:43 which include worship. 47:45 Worship service is not the hub. 47:47 Yeah, we've come to believe and it's not by intention, 47:50 it's just it's happened that way 47:52 that the worship service is the climax 47:54 of what we do as a church 47:55 and it's not. 47:57 And America has primarily, 47:58 you know, the thing about America, 47:59 we are so entertainment 48:01 we geared in America, 48:02 that the entertainment aspects, 48:04 you know, we're getting ready for the game. 48:06 Hey, let's, you know, the tailgate parties 48:08 and all this and get the popcorn, 48:10 the barbecue when, we are so event oriented 48:15 that we don't look at things as a continuum. 48:17 Yeah. 48:19 The church is never intended to be an event 48:21 but a continuum, 48:23 you know, continue to do this until I return. 48:25 Remembering all the time. 48:27 All the time, so vision, goals, ministry and growth, 48:29 vision, goals, ministry and growth. 48:31 Yeah, in regard to ministry 48:32 there's two kinds of ministry that happens. 48:34 There's a ministry for the church, 48:35 for the sustenance of the church, 48:37 which we've already talked about as being chores. 48:39 All right. 48:41 But then the other ministry that happens 48:43 is personal ministry 48:44 and that's the part that of course that's, 48:46 that's what I oversee try and engage people 48:49 and get people involve in personal ministry. 48:51 And that is according to your gifts. 48:53 It may be to help sustain the church part of your chores 48:57 but most of those gifts are used 48:59 in your connecting with others. 49:01 Reaching other people and sharing that gift, 49:03 be the encourager, being the one that is a leader, 49:10 whatever thing that you decide to do, 49:12 you work to help sustain the work of the church 49:14 as a church, as a structure, as an organization, 49:17 but you also go beyond that into a personal level 49:19 so there's two kinds of ministry 49:21 that we're always doing, 49:22 church ministry and personal ministry, 49:25 and both are absolutely necessary 49:27 to sustain 49:29 the evangelistic work of the church. 49:32 Now here's the statistic that's mind blowing, 49:35 and I recognize what I'm talking about 49:37 is in North America. 49:38 Okay. 49:40 So in different countries 49:42 you'll have different kinds of statistics that come up 49:47 but listen to this statistic, in North America 49:51 and this is from the NAD Ministerial Department. 49:54 Fifty percent of our pastoral workforce 49:56 will be eligible for retirement in the next decade. 50:01 Fifty percent. 50:03 And we do not have 50:05 nearly the numbers coming through the seminary 50:07 and coming through theology degrees 50:10 and other things in undergraduate work 50:12 to replace them. 50:14 Now the question I've asked and I ask congregations 50:17 when I go and give this seminar is, 50:20 is this a good thing or a bad thing. 50:23 Kind of a trick question. 50:24 Well, I like, I see where you're headed 50:27 because you mention North America, 50:28 that was the framework of the context. 50:30 So is this shortage of pastors that's coming 50:33 is this wave that's coming, is this good or is it bad? 50:37 Is it a problem or is it not so much of a problem? 50:39 Now in America, 50:41 that's the context, and I see where you're headed 50:42 because in America we have this pastor centered ministry. 50:45 Absolutely. 50:46 But you go to South America, 50:47 you go to many of the Caribbean countries, 50:49 you go to India, you go to Africa 50:50 where the pastor shows up like Paul did, 50:52 he was the itinerant. 50:54 He came around. 50:55 Paul was a district pastor and he had a huge district. 50:59 Even the elders that he equipped and trained 51:01 began to be itinerant. 51:03 That's right. 51:04 Which is they were, they became evangelistic in their efforts 51:06 to pastor several house churches, 51:08 not just one. 51:10 And that was the phrase that Paul used and he says, 51:12 "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." 51:17 Yeah. 51:19 Because when Paul after 18 months in Greece, 51:22 it was after his second journey 51:23 being there for 18 months in Greece 51:25 that he planted the Corinthian church, 51:27 after he stood, sorry, 51:29 after he planted the Corinthian church 51:31 he stayed for 18 months to teach them. 51:33 And then after 18 months he left 51:35 and he put Apollos in charge of the ministry at Corinth. 51:38 That's why you have... 51:39 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 51:43 That's right, we all work together. 51:44 And Apollos came from Mesopotamia 51:46 to be a part of that ministry. 51:47 He became a part of the Corinthian ministry 51:50 but Paul is already gone. 51:51 Yeah. 51:53 He was now going to other districts to do 51:54 all the work that God had given him 51:55 in another places. 51:57 Paul discipled Apollos 51:58 and left him then to disciple others. 52:00 That's right. 52:01 Discipleship is about passing on that knowledge 52:06 and that experience to other people 52:08 who can then do the same thing that you've been doing, 52:10 spread the gospel and grow the church. 52:13 You know, you see in the 440 in the Olympics 52:16 is the 440 two times around or one time around 52:18 in a regular track with the 220. 52:21 The relay... No, I don't even remember. 52:23 I think, I think it's one but... 52:25 Okay, well let's use that 440 or the 880 52:28 let's just use this as my own example of the relay. 52:31 This is my example, it may be completely Olympic incorrect, 52:34 but you have four guys that begin a relay race 52:38 and they can do two laps around the track. 52:41 And what happens is 52:42 the first guy that began 52:44 is going to be the guy that end, 52:45 so you start with a baton, 52:46 but you pass the baton to the next guy 52:48 he runs, he pass it to the next guy 52:50 he runs, he pass it to the next guy, 52:53 so one lap includes all four guys 52:55 at different intervals. 52:56 And the first guy that ran again 52:58 is waiting for the second lap, 52:59 he starts all over again, that's how the... 53:01 that's how the cycle of evangelism is, 53:03 the vision, the goals, the ministry, the growth, 53:07 they are running so to speak, they're running circles 53:12 but the circle is the cycle of the growth of the church. 53:16 And the coach is the... And the coach is the one 53:19 who equipped them to do that. 53:20 In a later program we're going to cover 53:22 what's called, I put together as a disciple making matrix. 53:24 Okay. 53:26 So we don't need to answer just the question 53:27 as what is a disciple, we need to answer the question 53:29 is how do we become a disciple making church. 53:33 Because that's the key, how do we build a structure, 53:35 an organization that is much more organic, 53:39 that is movable, that will do these things, 53:41 that won't build in almost a tendency to stagnation, 53:45 we've got to get away from that. 53:47 So I got a matrix that we'll cover here 53:49 in the future one. 53:50 But let me share this, there is a negative correlation 53:55 between pastor dependence and discipleship. 53:59 Negative correlation so you know what that means? 54:00 That means the more pastor dependent you are, 54:04 the less disciple focused, or disciple oriented you are. 54:07 Right. 54:08 The more you're looking at the pastor to do this or that, 54:11 the less you're looking to Christ to work in you 54:14 His will and His good pleasure. 54:17 So what I say often is you've got these churches 54:20 that are a little more polarized, 54:21 they're on the right side of that life cycle, 54:23 they're going down, 54:24 they're the ones that will have 54:26 the greatest number of complaints 54:28 against the pastor. 54:29 Right because they... Because they're focused 54:31 on the pastor making the church succeed. 54:34 I also do church councils. Okay. 54:36 And we're part of a church council process 54:38 and what I found even in the placement of pastors 54:41 where you go in, the first thing people want is, 54:44 are they good preachers. 54:46 Right, I was gonna say quite preacher. 54:47 I want to make sure they are good preacher, 54:49 if they're good preacher, we want those, 54:50 if they're not, we don't. 54:51 There's no, there's really discussion 54:53 on whether or not it's an equipping pastor. 54:54 Right. 54:56 Will that pastor get me involved in sharing the gospel, 54:58 to sharing my faith with others? 55:01 Maybe sometimes it's a little self-defeating 55:03 where they, they're little uncomfortable 55:06 with the thought of being pushed out 55:07 and driven out into that. 55:09 We'll talk about the process of sending out disciples 55:13 here in a future program as well. 55:14 But aren't the health and sustainability 55:18 of the church going forward 55:19 is absolutely dependent upon moving away 55:21 from pastor dependence 55:23 and moving back to our dependence upon Christ. 55:25 And how He wants us to walk with Him as a disciple, 55:28 making disciples by sharing our faith with others 55:31 and discipling them in the way. 55:33 And Jesus acknowledged that, in Matthew 9:37, 55:36 He said to His disciples and this is powerful, 55:39 when we talk about the cycle, we have vision, goals, 55:43 Ministry, growth. 55:44 Vision, goals, ministry, growth. 55:46 The Lord wasn't seeing the growth, 55:48 and He said to His disciples, He said to His disciples, 55:51 "The harvest truly is plentiful but the laborers are few." 55:55 If the Lord can turn the world upside down 55:57 with 12, He began with 12, 55:59 what could He do with most of our congregations 56:01 if they were actively involved in discipling others? 56:06 So the workers, I mean, what we are called to do 56:10 is to get back to the model of discipleship 56:12 rather than just the model of good evangelists. 56:16 And so in America we get the glory, 56:18 we get the glory, 56:19 because of a good sermon, 56:21 or, wow, that was a powerful message. 56:23 Message series or evangelistic 56:24 so amazing powerful evangelistic series. 56:27 Yet, he said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful 56:31 but there isn't laborers." 56:32 Yeah. 56:33 And that's where discipleship comes in 56:35 when we are equipped, 56:36 we go out and labor to bring others in. 56:38 I think public evangelism like even in that series 56:41 which was very forward thinking, 56:44 very technologically advanced at the time, 56:49 has lost its oomph 56:51 because the members have disengaged. 56:53 It's all about how many flyers can we get out, 56:55 that's not member engagement in, 56:57 in the harvest field, 56:59 that is just... 57:00 In fact, I did a series, 57:03 I won't tell you which church 57:05 and I knew that the success of that 57:07 was dependent upon whether or not 57:08 the members themselves would get involve 57:09 in bringing their friends, co-workers, family. 57:13 And some of them responded this way, 57:15 I don't have any friends that are non-Adventists. 57:19 Others said, "I don't have any neighbors nearby." 57:22 Some said, "My neighbors don't like me." 57:26 And then afterward, some of them said, 57:28 I wish I had come but I just, 57:29 I didn't come and the reason why didn't 57:31 because I already know all the information 57:32 you're going to share. 57:34 We don't have you there at a series 57:36 to know the information, 57:37 we have you there to connect with other people. 57:39 That's right. 57:40 And that is the focus of the church. 57:42 Wow. 57:43 That is a disciple focused church. 57:44 And therefore as you'll discover, friends, 57:46 one of the first components of discipleship 57:48 is Matthew 16:24, 57:50 "If anyone desires to come after me, 57:53 if you want to be my disciple, you have to deny yourself, 57:56 if you deny yourself, Christ can be first 57:59 and you can be an effective disciple." 58:01 God bless you. |
Revised 2017-06-29