Participants: Margot Marshall (Host), Dr. John Clark, Jenifer Skues
Series Code: HL
Program Code: HL000013A
00:14 Welcome to "Healthy Living!"
00:16 I'm your host Margot Marshall.
00:19 We all know that high cholesterol is a risk factor
00:22 for heart disease but what effect does high cholesterol
00:25 have on mental performance?
00:27 The answer may surprise you!
01:04 On the program today we have Dr. John Clark and Jenifer Skues
01:09 a health psychologist.
01:11 Welcome to the program! Thank you.
01:12 We look forward to what you have
01:14 to say about this intriguing subject.
01:16 So high cholesterol just isn't a problem for our heart,
01:21 it's also affecting our mental performance.
01:23 Would you like to just fill us in on that a bit?
01:26 You know when we have high cholesterol,
01:28 our blood gets thicker.
01:30 When our blood gets thicker,
01:32 it's harder to pump around our body.
01:34 When it's thicker with cholesterol,
01:36 it has less of an oxygen-carrying capacity
01:40 and so your brain suffers for lower oxygen.
01:46 That's the pathway.
01:50 So we had an interesting gentleman that came to us
01:53 for help.
01:54 He was an anesthetist - somebody who works in a hospital
01:59 and puts people asleep for surgery.
02:01 He had just finished his schooling; he was way in debt
02:06 and he needed to pass his exam for certification
02:09 before he could start work.
02:10 He went and took the test for the first time and failed.
02:16 He was worried, he was stressed out.
02:19 He studied very hard for six weeks and took the test again.
02:24 Again he failed and that's when he thought,
02:28 "Well I better talk to Dr. Clark and see if there isn't
02:30 something I need to do to improve my mental performance."
02:34 Well, this was a difficult thing.
02:38 He's on the line - if he doesn't pass the test the next time,
02:41 he can't take the test for a long time, he can't work,
02:45 and yet his debts will be coming due - more stress.
02:49 Well, so I sat down with him and first I took a history on
02:53 what he was eating.
02:55 Some of the things that he was eating included foods
02:58 that would make his cholesterol go high.
03:00 I also looked at what he was doing in his lifestyle;
03:03 how much water he was drinking; how much rest he was getting;
03:06 when he was going to bed; definitely what other
03:09 foods he was eating and we looked at his type of exercise.
03:14 Now we set him up with a program that was designed
03:17 to help his mental performance - particularly eating foods
03:21 that would be designed to keep his cholesterol low;
03:23 foods that would feed the brain, like walnuts;
03:26 different foods like beans that feed the brain like
03:30 lima beans.
03:31 We gave him a lot of good foods that would keep his
03:35 inflammation down in his body
03:37 so that he wouldn't have high inflammation.
03:39 And then, we looked at how much water he was drinking.
03:42 We improved his water intake, so he was drinking
03:44 3 liters of water per day.
03:48 We also had him doing exercise the would boost
03:52 the neurotrophic factors to help his brain learn and grow.
03:57 And we'll talk about more things that we did for him,
04:00 but in the course of time, he took his test again.
04:04 Now he had his entire church praying for him
04:07 because this was D-day.
04:09 You miss this one, you know, he's gotta a wife and
04:12 two kids and none of them worked and had any income.
04:17 He was living with friends and so he needed to get
04:21 his income started.
04:23 Well, he went to take his test for this third time.
04:27 He actually called some of his classmates and told them
04:31 the Lord is going to help me do it this time.
04:33 "I'm going to pass."
04:35 Well he went to go take his test and it was a computerized
04:39 test and you take about 100 questions of the test,
04:44 and if you're missing a lot of them, it will keep throwing
04:47 more questions at you.
04:48 If you're getting them right, it will stop at 100.
04:51 Well it stopped at 100 and he went to look and see what
04:54 his score was and they gave him a score right away.
04:57 He had made 100% on his test!
05:01 Oh, that's amazing! That's amazing!
05:04 So you took a multifaceted approach to that.
05:07 There was the diet and the very particular diet for his needs,
05:12 and then the exercise, and the water and prayer,
05:16 so he had a lot of things going for him because when
05:19 I think of the mental, physical, spiritual, social,
05:22 you mentioned three of those areas where he was getting
05:25 specific and significant help in that period of time - the foods,
05:30 the water, the exercise in the physical part,
05:34 and then the spiritual part, so that was fantastic,
05:39 and I'm sure he was very relieved.
05:42 And talk about the stress - Jeni, this is very much
05:46 in your department, isn't it?
05:48 As your talking, I'm thinking, "Well he must have been
05:50 incredibly stressed. Oh yes.
05:51 I know stress reduces your capacity
05:54 for mental performance, but at the same time,
05:57 that last test would have been probably the most stressful
06:00 because if he didn't get it this time, he was out.
06:03 Three strikes and you're out. Yeah.
06:04 So it wasn't just stress, it was a problem, it had to be -
06:09 you know when you look at the cholesterol factor,
06:11 it had to be a big player for him in that. Definitely!
06:17 And when people eat good food, they're more able to handle
06:21 stress - they're less likely to overreact to stress.
06:25 And when they're exercising so that they are physiologically
06:29 in good shape, their body physiology doesn't respond
06:32 so dramatically to stress.
06:34 The heart rate doesn't go so high for example;
06:36 their breathing doesn't get so erratic.
06:39 It buffers the stress.
06:41 Which is wonderful because, see the thing is,
06:44 with the cholesterol and the oxygen factor would have been
06:46 a problem and the brain can grow and change and his
06:51 brain wasn't because it couldn't.
06:53 It was just sort of stuck in neutral, I guess you could say.
06:56 That's right! People with their diets make it so their
06:59 brain gets stuck where it is and they can't learn;
07:02 they can't grow; they can't develop; they don't come up
07:06 with new ways of dealing with stress. That's right.
07:08 And that's where I find when I'm working with people,
07:10 if they had that problem, I can't help them.
07:13 It doesn't matter what I do, they're not going to change,
07:15 and this is another reason I went into looking at the
07:18 mind-body connection and treating the whole system
07:20 because I found just trying to treat the
07:22 stress factor wasn't enough.
07:24 And people got more stressed because they're going,
07:26 "But I'm doing all these things and it's not making any
07:28 difference or I can't do it because I'm still stressed,"
07:30 so we can see how important that holistic approach is.
07:34 So what you're saying is, by shifting the focus
07:36 to the physical things that they could do,
07:39 it took their mind off the stress, they were focusing
07:43 on the thing that was really...
07:44 And looking at brain food, the nutrients in
07:47 the brain is very important and getting that whole thing
07:51 going again because I can't help a starving brain
07:54 make a change or a brain that is clogged to make a change,
07:58 and that's sort of some of what we've been talking about here
08:00 because the brain can't grow.
08:03 No that's terrific that you're able to come at it from
08:06 both of those angles all in the one session.
08:08 You definitely get better results when you get the person
08:11 to make changes all around and not just do one thing,
08:14 and that's what you were doing.
08:16 So again this is something we all need to be aware of.
08:19 It's a holistic program and we need to treat every
08:21 part of our system.
08:22 That's right, mental, physical, spiritual and social.
08:25 John, you were talking about exercise - how much actually
08:28 did you recommend that he would do in this instance?
08:33 Now this was a gentleman that, of course, was fairly young
08:35 in his early 30s - he has no expectations that he's
08:42 going to have a heart attack immediately, and one of the
08:45 things you want to do if you want the brain to
08:47 particularly be able to learn new things is to
08:51 have what we call "BDNF,"
08:54 brain, drive, neurotrophic factor.
08:56 And in order to get that to increase in the bloodstream,
09:00 you need some fairly vigorous aerobic exercise.
09:04 And so we sent him - he actually lived on a hill,
09:07 so I told him, "Jog to the bottom of the hill and
09:09 back at least once if not twice a day."
09:13 We also had him...
09:14 That wasn't Everest or anything like that, was it?
09:18 How far would that have been roughly?
09:20 I'm guessing that the elevation change over the top of his
09:23 hill to the bottom of the hill would be
09:25 about 100 to 120 meters. Alright.
09:29 That's a good run up and down a hill.
09:31 Yes and so the vigorous exercise of running down and up
09:35 would be enough to boost the BDNF and so that was part of it.
09:42 And then also, I had him on a program of studying,
09:45 I did spend some time with him going over study techniques
09:49 and what to focus on for his tests and so forth
09:53 which really is irrelevant to health, but in-between
09:57 times when he's doing his studying, I told him never
09:59 study for more than 30 minutes without taking a break
10:03 and at least a walk and where he lived, I said, "Well you know
10:06 you could walk down to that shed and over
10:08 to that trailer and then back again.
10:10 And so never sit there for more than 30 minutes.
10:13 It's interesting, when I was in college, I got a job
10:18 as a night watchman and I had several circuits I should
10:24 walk in order to complete my job and so I looked over
10:28 the campus that I was on that I was supposed
10:30 to cover all these buildings.
10:31 And I divided them up and I laid out my program
10:35 so 20 minutes - I'd be walking and then I'd stop and I'd
10:38 study for 20 minutes, and then 20 minutes I'd be walking,
10:41 and my brain was always fresh to study! Okay.
10:45 This 30 minutes, what's the reason for
10:49 cutting off at 30 minutes of studying?
10:52 You attention span isn't hardly longer than 20 minutes,
10:57 and your mental performance starts dropping at about
11:00 20 minutes and it's definitely dropped pretty low at 30 minutes
11:04 if you don't take a change of activity. Yes.
11:07 And you're much better off taking a break than just trying
11:10 to, you know, keep going.
11:13 And so this is very important for picking back up
11:16 the brain mental performance in between times.
11:22 So that was the aerobic part of his exercise,
11:25 was he doing more than that, that run down the hill and back?
11:29 Well he would then walk every 30 minutes
11:31 so that he never got tired.
11:33 The run was not every 20 minutes - he'd be a
11:38 marathoner after that.
11:39 I'm sorry, you did say that, yes.
11:41 So every 30 minutes he was to do some kind of exercise.
11:45 That would have added up to a fair amount during the day?
11:48 That's correct.
11:49 Yes and he was very diligent about following his program.
11:54 See the BDNF factor is huge because it's about
11:58 growing the brain and BDNF
12:01 is called "fertilizer" for the brain.
12:05 I don't know if that's a good term to put,
12:06 but fertilizer grows the brain.
12:08 And what it does, we have trillions of neurons,
12:12 trillions and trillions of them in the brain and they make up
12:16 pathways where we put inflammation along those
12:18 pathways and the more we act on the pathway,
12:21 the bigger that inflammation pathway gets and I actually
12:24 call them - they become freeways. Oh!
12:26 Now if you have an unhealthy one, it's not good and we want
12:29 a healthy one but the BDNF factor grows the memory
12:32 to help create the pathways. Oh okay.
12:35 And it stimulates neuronal growth, so that means it helps
12:38 the cells to grow and multiply, and it also helps the cells
12:42 or the neurons to connect, it's called "synapses"
12:45 and the synapses that connect to make the pathways.
12:48 So if you're going to put in and recall information,
12:50 you need good pathways and a good memory bank
12:53 to be able to put the new ones in and that's exactly what
12:56 this man was doing.
12:58 He was growing his brain but in doing that
13:01 there's a part of the brain, it's like a storehouse
13:03 for memory and it's called the "hippocampus" and it's
13:05 just below the or at the bottom of the brain area and there are
13:10 two areas we store memory; one is called the "amygdala"
13:14 which is our emotional memory and the other is the
13:17 "hippocampus" and they are right next to one another.
13:19 And what they do is they can change size, they can grow
13:23 to the point where they found that sometimes there are people
13:26 who have Alzheimer's who don't lose their memory as such,
13:29 and when they've done an autopsy, they found they had
13:32 a very big hippocampus and they had been highly active
13:35 in their life like this man had and they had actually
13:38 grown the hippocampus to the point where when the
13:40 Alzheimer's set in, they had so many memory cells
13:44 ready to use that they didn't lose them all.
13:46 Isn't that interesting?
13:48 It's a very powerful thing, so we all want to grow
13:50 the brain and this is exactly what we do. Yes.
13:55 You think there's enough room in there? Laughter.
13:57 You mean you're going to get a big head.
14:01 But that's fantastic because they didn't always think
14:03 that that could happen - it's not that long ago, is it?
14:06 No, they used to think that once we were born,
14:10 the brain had all these cells, trillion of cells,
14:12 and as we got older, they'd die and we'd lose brain capacity,
14:15 but that's not true. No.
14:17 We can grow the brain.
14:18 Isn't that wonderful! Oh it is.
14:19 It's wonderful to think that we can actually do that.
14:22 And, yes, this is an important thing to remember
14:27 because I've had one family bring to me the husband
14:31 and father and he was getting Alzheimer's.
14:34 I mean, he didn't believe he was getting Alzheimer's. They don't!
14:39 But his wife and his kids are like, "Yeah, he forgets;
14:42 he changes; he's got this going on and that."
14:45 And so, again I sat down with him and took a history of
14:48 what he was eating and it was a lot of high cholesterol
14:50 foods, foods with cholesterol and foods
14:52 that would drive up his cholesterol. Right.
14:54 And we did a similar thing where we took him off
14:57 all of those things, especially free oils which decrease
15:02 the amount of oxygen on the brain.
15:04 And again, we put him on the walnuts and the flax,
15:08 and coconut and brain foods, but the added thing we had
15:14 for him, we had him doing some hydrotherapy on his head,
15:16 but we also had him exercising the mental part of his brain.
15:21 We had him work on memorizing and the best thing he could
15:26 memorize was Bible passages. Okay.
15:29 And so I'd have him pick his Bible passages and memorize
15:33 them and work on it every day.
15:36 And then the other thing that really helps the brain is
15:39 exercising it in studying in comparing similar things,
15:44 we call it "the associations."
15:46 And so we had him studying the Bible where he would look at
15:49 one passage and compare it with another.
15:52 For example, maybe he would go to where Jesus says, "Come
15:56 unto Me all ye that labor and I will give you rest."
16:00 Okay, "rest." Well he then is supposed to associate
16:03 with other things in the Bible where it talks about "rest."
16:05 Oh, well then there's the Sabbath day that is for rest.
16:09 And then there's Hebrews where it says, "There's a rest
16:11 that remains the people of God."
16:14 And then, well then there's the opposite in Revelation,
16:16 it says, "The wicked HAVE no rest."
16:19 Anyway, the idea is to keep comparing different
16:22 similar thoughts throughout the Bible so he could
16:26 increase the mental performance.
16:28 Well I was giving a talk on Alzheimer's a couple of years
16:34 later and I thought, "I wonder what happened to that guy,
16:36 I gotta call him before my talk so I know,
16:38 do I have a... Yeah!
16:40 Have a living example, basically.
16:41 Hopefully he's done some good in his example.
16:44 And sure enough, his wife said, "You know, when he's on that
16:47 program, he's back to normal, he has no deficits, but if he
16:52 goes down to the fast food joint and eats some kind of
16:54 cholesterol-containing food, he's in trouble."
16:58 Really? So in other words, he could come back to normal
17:00 and then switch backwards and forwards, are you saying that?
17:04 Yes, to a certain degree.
17:06 Oh, goodness me.
17:08 It is a "use it or lose it principle" with the brain.
17:11 If we don't use the brain, the cells start to die
17:13 and drop out - we lose those pathways there.
17:16 The interesting thing is we never totally lose a pathway
17:20 or what is a belief or an attitude or a memory,
17:23 it's actually housed in the outer area of the brain,
17:26 around the outer core of the brain and they are like
17:30 dormant memories.
17:31 So for someone, for example, who has a habit that they
17:34 wanted to change - it might be reading or what we do
17:39 or it might be people who smoke or drink or whatever,
17:42 and they stop - they can find further down the track
17:44 where they absentmindedly do it because
17:46 that habit is still there.
17:48 But if you feed it, it will grow but if you go, "Hang on
17:50 I don't do that anymore," you'll find that it will
17:53 start to dissipate and the cells are actually dropping out
17:57 and that memory goes into that dormant space
17:59 but it can be activated.
18:01 So he would have had lots of memories there and what
18:03 he is doing is activating them instead of letting them
18:06 dissipate. Yes.
18:08 Now John, what about the medications that control
18:12 cholesterol, would that give people
18:14 a good mental performance if they controlled their
18:16 cholesterol that way?
18:18 You'd think so, wouldn't you?
18:19 You get the cholesterol down, we know that cholesterol,
18:22 as we've discussed here, causes mental performance
18:24 issues but in reality they've discovered that the cholesterol
18:31 pills actually decrease mental performance.
18:35 So I often ask the question, "Well, if you had high
18:38 cholesterol and your brain function was suffering,
18:41 would you know any difference if you started taking a
18:43 pill that also caused brain function problems and even
18:49 though it lowered your cholesterol?
18:51 I have a friend who had high cholesterol, she decided
18:55 "You know, I've struggled through it with this
18:57 all my life, I think I should go ahead and go on
18:59 the medication because the studies show that
19:03 if your cholesterol is high, you've got
19:04 problems - it's better if it's low."
19:07 So they started taking that medication,
19:09 and one day we went driving down the freeway
19:13 and all of a sudden they realized they had missed
19:15 their exit two exits back.
19:17 And then we went driving up another way and they
19:20 totally forgot where they were and this wasn't like them.
19:23 And I'm like what's going on?
19:24 Well, they're taking this statin drug that lowers cholesterol,
19:28 but these statin drugs are not without their side effects.
19:35 So you think you're doing yourself a great deal of good,
19:37 but in reality, they also lower your immune system.
19:40 We talked about the immune system in another program,
19:42 they depress your immune system so much, that they
19:47 have been used in transplanting organs as immunosuppressor
19:50 to good effect. Wow! Oh my goodness!
19:53 That's powerful!
19:55 Oh and we're not told that?
19:58 I mean people take things trustingly, don't they,
20:03 and don't realize all of that.
20:05 I know they do print out big sheets of side effects,
20:08 but that's really bad.
20:10 Just going back to your first story, tell us a bit more
20:14 about why you selected some of the foods that you did
20:17 for that young man who needed to pass his exam.
20:21 Yes, one of the things we wanted to do is make sure
20:24 his brain had good oxygenation which means good flow.
20:29 So like for breakfast, we'd have him eating lots of good
20:32 fresh fruit, particularly things like pineapple and grapefruit,
20:37 both of which improve blood flow.
20:40 We would also make sure he was getting the essential
20:43 fatty acids - both omega 3 and some of the others,
20:46 and that's why we gave him like walnuts.
20:49 We had him eating certain things like flax and then
20:53 there are certain foods that boost neurotransmitters.
20:56 And so beans, such as lima beans and soybeans which
21:01 improve certain things like serotonin and dopamine,
21:06 and things like that.
21:08 And so we made sure that his food was such as would
21:12 feed his brain and it wouldn't clog his brain.
21:16 And then another factor here is we made sure he
21:19 stayed on schedule.
21:20 This is a huge thing we really haven't gotten into but
21:23 people who eat at the same time every day,
21:25 like if they're going to eat breakfast at 7:00,
21:27 they always eat at 7:00, come weekend or week day,
21:30 they have lower cholesterols and better digestion;
21:33 they eat less food; they have less diabetes.
21:36 There's a lot of important things for the brain
21:38 about staying on schedule, your brain runs on a schedule.
21:42 Your brain has circadian rhythms.
21:45 Well it's hard for people to stay on schedule and
21:48 I find when I'm working with people and I try and get
21:50 them to do a schedule, they really struggle and it's
21:53 hard for them to stay on track
21:55 unless they're a very disciplined person.
21:57 So that's something that's a real challenge
21:58 for most people too. Yes.
22:00 And by eating on schedule, what times are we talking
22:04 about here to get someone to religiously do this?
22:08 Basically, I tell people to figure out in their schedule
22:12 what are the immovable appointments and then
22:15 establish a schedule for their eating around that,
22:17 that they can keep seven days a week.
22:21 And it doesn't matter how many, there are certain optimal times,
22:24 but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody can do it,
22:26 but if your breakfast is 8:30, always at 8:30
22:30 from weekend to week day.
22:32 Same is true of going to bed and getting up.
22:35 We had him established on a very strict schedule - always
22:38 go to bed and for people wanting their brain to
22:41 function better, getting hours before midnight
22:43 are extremely important for your melatonin. Absolutely!
22:48 And the melatonin is its own, well, it's your body's
22:52 anti-inflammatory hormone!
22:55 It also sets that clock for them to get a good sleep and to
22:59 let the whole body clock do the right cycle.
23:02 So I know that with people I work with insomnia,
23:05 if they don't do that, the melatonin cycle is going to
23:08 malfunction and then they'll have insomnia.
23:11 And insomnia will definitely knock out your mental
23:13 performance the next day.
23:16 Yes, it's a whole range of things, isn't it?
23:19 Another thing we were doing in this program was having
23:22 him drink lots of water and people don't realize
23:26 when they're behind on water that by the time you are
23:28 thirsty, you're already 30% down.
23:32 And now you think about a jug of water or a tank of water,
23:37 when the water starts to decrease in the tank,
23:40 where does the water go?
23:42 Down - the level drops.
23:45 Well where is the top of your water level in your body?
23:47 Your brain!
23:49 So people who are dehydrated, their brain shrinks,
23:53 and their mental performance suffers. It does.
23:56 And they end up not being able to think.
23:58 And so a well-hydrated brain is key to keeping
24:03 the neurofunctions going.
24:04 Also, it's true that when you drink plenty of water
24:07 and you're not dehydrated, you can raise your
24:09 blood volume by 6% and, therefore, you're diluting
24:13 out things in your bloodstream by 6% including cholesterol.
24:17 So you have a relative drop in cholesterol
24:19 due to being well-hydrated. Yes.
24:21 John, what are the foods that contain cholesterol
24:24 because obviously, if we're to eliminate cholesterol
24:27 we need to be very clear the source of cholesterol in foods.
24:31 And we're going to do a whole topic here on cholesterol
24:35 and lowering it, but you might be surprised to find out
24:39 that it's not just the foods you eat WITH cholesterol
24:42 which are a problem - it takes a liver to make cholesterol
24:45 so if your food had a liver or a mother or whatever,
24:49 then you know it has cholesterol.
24:50 A chicken has cholesterol, an avocado doesn't have a
24:53 mother, doesn't have a liver, so it doesn't have cholesterol.
24:56 But it's also true that anything you eat that's high in fat
25:01 whether it has cholesterol or not,
25:04 will raise your cholesterol.
25:06 Also, any animal protein, even people working out
25:10 in the gym trying to get extra protein by drinking
25:12 these high protein shakes that are largely some part of the
25:16 milk protein like casein or whey - the milk protein
25:22 even in the absence of fat or cholesterol will tell
25:27 your liver to produce more cholesterol
25:31 and you'll have a high cholesterol.
25:33 And so any animal protein, be it white meat,
25:36 be it red meat, whatever - will raise your cholesterol
25:39 even if they've done something to lower the actual
25:41 cholesterol content of that meat.
25:44 I've been told seafood is high in cholesterol - your
25:47 crustaceans and that's a very popular food for a lot
25:50 of people - prawns and crayfish. True.
25:53 Yes, so this is where people have to make massive
25:56 changes if they really want to watch
25:58 their cholesterol levels and improve on that.
26:01 Yes, so the plant foods, it comes back to plant foods
26:04 again, doesn't it?
26:05 Whole plant foods are the ones to aim at.
26:08 And when you eat cholesterol, unlike when your liver
26:13 makes cholesterol, it's very hard to keep that cholesterol
26:17 that coming through your mouth from coming in contact
26:19 with air and getting oxidized. Yes!
26:22 Oxidized cholesterol then increases brain inflammation,
26:27 and when the brain is inflamed, you end up with more
26:31 functional deficits and especially with Alzheimer's,
26:35 Parkinson's and all the other neurodegenerative diseases.
26:40 A major contributor to mental illness with depression,
26:43 anxiety disorders, it's all brain inflammation and again,
26:46 there's that problem with medication because some of
26:49 these medications like your antidepressants
26:52 can inflame the brain which is really counteracting
26:56 what the brain needs to deal with the depression.
26:59 It's the same sort of principle.
27:02 So another thing we had him doing is we had him
27:08 breaking his day up and we might talk a little more about that.
27:12 People who get into a rut and spend a lot of time on
27:16 one thing, become less and less efficient and then they start
27:19 thinking, "I'm not very good at this," and then they
27:22 start getting depressed. That's right!
27:25 That's when they come and see me and then we have to look
27:28 at what is depression and when it's something to do with
27:31 what they're eating and their lifestyle, if that doesn't
27:34 change, the medication does not do the job,
27:37 so they have to change what you're talking about.
27:39 Yeah, then it might be so simple as they need to take
27:41 a break more often. Yes!
27:43 That's a tremendously simple thing to do and it's
27:47 refreshing, isn't it?
27:48 It's refreshing to take a break.
27:50 Well like some people I know, it's not, they like to just
27:54 do something endlessly and that's just their personality.
27:57 Well thank you so much, both of you for your input today,
28:01 and that's our program for today.
28:03 If you'd like a fact sheet of the program or you'd like
28:06 to watch our programs on demand, just visit our website at:
28:13 and click the watch button.
28:15 And John and Jenifer are happy to answer your questions
28:18 personally - just email them at:
28:20 firstname.lastname@example.org .au
28:24 Join us next time on "Healthy Living!"