Participants: Margot Marshall (Host), Dr. Eddie Ramirez
Series Code: HL
Program Code: HL000021A
00:14 Welcome to "Healthy Living!"
00:16 I'm your host Margot Marshall.
00:18 There's a lot of controversy about soy,
00:21 is it good or bad for me?
00:23 And for that matter, is milk good or bad for me?
00:26 Stay tuned as we explore some of the current
00:29 research on these two foods.
01:08 When it comes to deciding whether a product is healthy
01:11 or not, vested interests aren't the best source of information.
01:15 So what does the research have to say about milk and soy?
01:19 Dr. Eddie Ramirez has studied the scientific research
01:22 and he's here today to share it with us.
01:24 Welcome Eddie!
01:26 Thank you very much for having me here. A pleasure!
01:29 What can you tell us about this controversy that goes
01:31 on about soy and then again, what about milk?
01:34 Yes, we're going to talk a lot about these two topics.
01:38 You will be receiving lots of information.
01:41 Get a pen and paper so you can take notes.
01:44 And when we're talking about milk, please understand
01:49 we are not talking about human breast milk.
01:52 That is something I encourage every single one of my
01:56 patients to breastfeed as much as possible.
02:01 It has huge implications in the health of the baby.
02:05 The risk of pneumonia, for example, decreases dramatically.
02:09 The risk of the famous crib death decreases dramatically
02:18 when a baby is breastfed.
02:21 The IQ of the baby is higher when they receive breast milk,
02:27 and there are studies that are tracing that kids that were
02:31 bottle-fed - they have higher risk of heart disease, diabetes,
02:36 Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis and the list
02:39 just goes on and on and on when you put things in
02:43 perspective, it's definitely worth it.
02:46 When I was living in Norway, I lived there for many years,
02:49 my first daughter was born there - they actually encourage
02:53 mothers to take one year off their job so they could
02:59 really focus on their baby because they saw the
03:03 implications that this would have
03:05 in the long-term of that baby.
03:08 So we are not going to be talking about breast milk,
03:10 you should do breast milk and so forth.
03:13 We're talking today about milk usually that comes from
03:19 cows - that's the one we're going to be talking about.
03:22 Alright, well that's good to clear that one up
03:23 and I'm glad you said that about breast milk because
03:25 it's just so important. Yes!
03:27 And you know, today there are many companies that
03:33 what they care about is money,
03:35 and not necessarily may be their well-being.
03:38 And we have created a science of creating the ideal cow,
03:45 and we can see that on the screen.
03:49 It's going to be weighing between 1,000 and 1,500 pounds
03:55 in American terms - we want this cow to grow as much as
04:02 And you know, in this industry, there are many things that
04:06 don't go right.
04:08 Just in America, almost a 100 million cows are
04:12 there and today, we are understanding the implications
04:17 of that including the beef cows, the milk cows and the calves.
04:23 And it is actually a little bit cruel the way this works;
04:29 cow's milk is designed for baby cows and those baby cows
04:35 are taken away from their mother.
04:37 You know how you love your baby and so forth?
04:40 Cows love their babies also and there is actually
04:44 some emotional disturbances and so forth, when they are
04:49 being taken away.
04:51 And see, the reason why there are issues with this
04:56 is because, as I mentioned and I'll repeat, cows' milk
05:01 is a fabulous food for the baby cow!
05:05 But the humans are not designed for this excess.
05:10 For example, when you see the protein amount on different
05:16 milks and how fast the animal doubles his weight,
05:21 you can see that correlationship.
05:23 For example, just last year I was in India.
05:27 I had the opportunity of visiting a fascinating place,
05:30 a temple where they would go there and worship rats!
05:35 And the irony is that there are people that are dying
05:40 of hunger in India, yet they are cooking and making
05:45 foods for rats!
05:48 There were thousands of thousands
05:50 of rats there in that temple. Oh.
05:54 Those rats, they need to double their weight in only 4.5 days.
06:02 So that's why rats' milk has 11.8 grams of protein,
06:12 so a very, very high amount.
06:14 You compare that with, for example, goats' milk
06:17 and that's 4.1 grams compared to the fact that it will
06:22 double its weight in 19 days, cows have 3.3 because
06:28 they'll double the weight in 47 days.
06:30 And please notice, human beings they will double their weight
06:35 in 180 days and that's why human milk has 1.2.
06:41 So compare the 1.2 to the 3.3
06:45 of cows. And this is the protein.
06:47 That's the protein content, and not only that,
06:50 all the other different indicators when you compare
06:54 how much it has milk, how much
06:56 human milk has, it's a big difference.
06:59 For example, calcium, you know; calcium - we're talking about
07:04 in the range of 40 grams compared to cows 198.
07:08 It is too much!
07:10 That's about 5 times as much calcium in cows' milk,
07:15 so not really designed for a human baby or human at all.
07:18 The same thing with phosphorus. That's right!
07:22 Phosphorus, 18 on human, 152 on the cows.
07:26 See, that is a lot and actually when you are eating
07:32 foods that are high in phosphorus,
07:36 the effect that that has on the human is that it
07:40 encourages throwing out the calcium
07:44 which is not a good idea.
07:45 You know, especially ladies, you want
07:48 to have your strong bones.
07:51 So it's like drinking soda pop.
07:54 See, soda pop is high in phosphorus and that creates
08:00 the leaking of the calcium.
08:02 The same thing with sodium.
08:03 Human milk 23, cows 80. Too much, it's too much!
08:09 Potassium also an excess.
08:12 So I don't like to encourage people to do this because I
08:18 know the negative implications that these have in their body.
08:22 Yes, so we tend to make cow's milk the benchmark
08:26 for nutrition for humans and you've just outlined
08:29 in every respect, it's just not
08:32 and it doesn't fit what we need at all.
08:34 In fact, right now I am involved in a big research
08:38 project in India - back when the English came to England,
08:44 they had the term "white schools," in which they were
08:50 encouraged drinking milk to the children.
08:55 But they did not realize there that a lot of the Indian
09:00 population actually has intolerance to the milk,
09:05 and right now that's exactly a research
09:08 project that we are doing.
09:10 Indian people are not just one group of people,
09:14 but there are hundreds of different ethnic groups
09:18 there that live in India.
09:20 So we are trying to analyze and understand which groups
09:26 tend to handle better - which groups tend to hand worse,
09:29 but some of those groups, 70% of them, don't handle
09:33 milk well.
09:34 So they have a lactose intolerance.
09:36 The English came and encouraged the drinking of milk
09:40 and many health problems related to this.
09:43 And you know, when we're talking about dairy,
09:45 I want you to understand that we're talking about
09:47 nonfat milk, buttermilk, cheese, cottage cheese, yogurt,
09:55 ice cream, kefir, butter, whey, all these things fall
10:01 under that umbrella of what we are talking about today.
10:06 And you know, the same situation happened in Mexico,
10:09 in Latin America - there came some terrorists across the ocean
10:14 on some boats and from Spain to the Americas and they brought
10:20 foods that were not there.
10:22 See, in the continent of America there were no cows;
10:28 there were no horses; there were no chickens;
10:31 there were no pigs there, and they brought these things.
10:35 And the people living there were not exposed
10:40 to milk products for thousands of years.
10:43 And as these products arrived, this is something modern,
10:48 and especially the people that have more native blood
10:53 tend to have more problems with these products
10:57 because their system has not been exposed to them.
11:01 So we find a huge amount of milk intolerance,
11:04 yet is the staple of many people to use them.
11:08 That's right, and we're not even designed for it
11:11 or it wasn't even designed for humans - it was designed
11:14 for baby cows, so it's not surprising.
11:16 I guess we've built up a bit of a tolerance in the developed
11:20 countries but some have, some haven't.
11:22 But really, it's not even good for people
11:26 who can tolerate it.
11:27 That's right because it's not only the protein per se,
11:31 but also the other nutrients that are in excess
11:35 such as cholesterol and so forth.
11:39 And we're talking about a business that is in the
11:44 billions of dollars. Yes.
11:46 So you know, when there's this type of commercial interest,
11:50 many times what they want is to sell their product
11:54 and they may modify things and so forth.
11:58 And it's interesting you know, I travel to many countries,
12:01 many, many countries - pretty much to all the continents
12:04 on this planet, and I can tell you; for example, in India
12:09 and in Africa especially, African-origin people
12:15 have a BIG intolerance to milk products.
12:18 I went there to communities where there is no milk,
12:21 yet, when you analyze those people's bones,
12:25 their bones are strong, the children grow adequately;
12:29 they are able to do well in school and so forth.
12:34 And don't say, "Well doctor, don't you know
12:36 people are dying of hunger?"
12:37 No, they're not dying of hunger, I saw with my own eyes.
12:40 Yes, there are families, you know, where there's alcoholism
12:43 and these types of issues and they may suffer
12:45 but the average person there is eating enough
12:49 and what they eat is a whole foods, plant-based diet.
12:54 That seems to be a recurring theme.
12:56 Now this is a very interesting point and I think
12:59 it's probably the most important thing that people
13:01 consider because we hear a lot about calcium and the need for
13:04 more calcium and so on, and of course, cow's milk
13:08 is the highest source of calcium in the diet,
13:11 so how do you explain that people who are not using any,
13:17 has got strong bones? That's right!
13:19 And how people who use a lot, do not - how does that work?
13:24 In fact, there is a fascinating relationship.
13:26 We can see in a published study, on the screen
13:30 the comparison between those countries
13:34 that drink the most calcium, yet they have the highest
13:41 rates of hip fracture which is an indicator of osteoporosis.
13:46 If you want to picture Australia is somewhere between
13:49 The United Kingdom and New Zealand, that's where
13:53 we find Australia which is very high!
13:59 How come they're eating humongous amounts
14:03 of calcium - yet they have such high rates of osteoporosis?
14:09 You've asked the question, now I want you to answer it.
14:11 Let me share with you how this works.
14:14 Yes because usually that calcium
14:19 comes from dairy-related products.
14:23 So you're taking the calcium, yes, but you're also taking
14:28 huge amounts of animal protein which, unfortunately,
14:34 tends to be an acid-forming protein.
14:40 So that excess amount of protein published research over
14:45 and over has shown that when you take that high amount of
14:49 protein together with the calcium, instead of
14:51 putting that calcium in your bones, you actually
14:55 have the negative effect and you actually take away
14:59 some of the calcium from your bones and throw it away.
15:03 In fact, you can measure this in the laboratory.
15:06 You give more animal products and I'll show you that in
15:09 your urine the calcium is being dropped out.
15:13 Not only that, it's a problem because the kidneys
15:17 - the calcium needs to pass through the kidneys
15:20 and you can form kidney stones.
15:22 I was just reading recently from a residency book of
15:26 nephrology, you know the specialist on the kidneys,
15:28 literally it says there in that book - "People that are
15:33 recurrent calcium stone formers should consider becoming
15:42 vegetarians - that's what it says there.
15:44 The specialist book on nephrology!
15:48 Because we know that relationship and not only
15:51 milk will do this, also meat, chicken and animal products
15:58 they are very acidic and that will have that
16:02 negative effect on your bones.
16:04 So if you want to have strong bones, the best things
16:07 you can do is to remove yourself as far away from milk.
16:12 Now, the problem is that the marketing industry
16:16 has done a fabulous job at brainwashing us. Yes.
16:20 And when you ask somebody, "Where does calcium come from?"
16:25 You're going to say, "Milk."
16:26 You're just programmed to say that because of marketing.
16:30 You think about - oh raising a child without milk,
16:34 oh, that's child abuse, you may say! Yes.
16:37 But you know, when you think about it,
16:38 where does the cow get its calcium?
16:40 That's right! Green leafies!
16:42 Exactly! See, calcium is in the ground, so I don't see cows
16:49 eating dirt and things; so yes, the plant absorbs
16:56 the calcium through the roots, gets in the plant
16:58 and that's when you eat it.
17:00 You can do exactly the same thing as the cow is doing,
17:04 and get that from there.
17:05 I have three daughters -
17:07 If we can put a man on the moon, we can probably
17:09 work out how to get our calcium from the same way a cow does.
17:13 I have three daughters, the three of them grew with,
17:17 of course, breast milk and after that not a single drink of milk.
17:22 They are strong, they are their normal weight,
17:25 their normal height and they do fantastically well in school.
17:30 And you know, there's research on this - if you go to
17:33 the scientific literature, there are 57 published
17:39 studies that I could identify, there may be a little bit more
17:41 if you look forward, but the ones I identified,
17:44 there were 57 and I started counting, 57% of those
17:48 57 studies showed that there is no significant benefit
17:54 of drinking dairy and your bones. Yes.
17:58 Twenty-nine percent said there's a little bit favorable
18:04 effect and if you analyze those 29 studies, 6 of them
18:13 were sponsored by the milk industry.
18:18 So you could say it has a little bit of a marketing effect
18:23 compared to 14% of those studies they show that it was
18:28 an adverse effect in your bones.
18:31 Interesting, now you're talking about the plant-based diet
18:34 being good for our bones and the animal-based foods being
18:38 the ones that deplete the calcium.
18:41 I was looking on the "World Health Organization" website
18:44 recently and the healthy diet and the fact sheet
18:47 for a healthy diet and it lists fruits, vegetables,
18:52 legumes or beans, nuts and, what was the other one?
18:57 And grains. And grains, whole
18:59 unprocessed grains. That's right.
19:01 There's no mention of milk.
19:03 There's no mention of any of the
19:05 meats or even eggs. That's right!
19:06 And a healthy diet, according to the "World Health
19:09 Organization," comprises of all those plant foods.
19:12 That's factsheet #394, if you want to check it out.
19:17 Fact sheet 394 on the "World Health Organization" website.
19:21 So it really bears out what you're saying and, of course,
19:25 the original diet that the Creator gave us
19:27 is what you've been talking about - it was all plant foods.
19:30 And you know, there is right now a big
19:33 attack on soy products. Yes.
19:36 Part of this is the milk industry running rumors
19:39 and so forth; part of it is uninformed people that call
19:45 themselves "experts" while they're not and running
19:48 all these rumors against soy that are not justified.
19:53 Let me just deal with a few of the arguments
19:56 and what is the reality of the situation.
19:58 Some people say that because of the substances found in
20:04 soy, you actually have an antinutrient effect.
20:08 In other words, you actually
20:10 lose nutrients when you are eating soy.
20:14 The reality is that when you cook and process soy products
20:20 with cooking and fermentation, these antinutrients substances
20:27 get eliminated.
20:28 Oh, well you don't eat them raw, I mean you wouldn't
20:31 eat it raw in any way, you just wouldn't.
20:33 You would never eat soy raw, exactly!
20:36 So that's why those substances theoretically that
20:40 could harm you, they're not present as you process
20:44 which is the way that we usually eat our soy.
20:47 Nobody eats raw soybeans that I'm aware of.
20:50 That's very misleading isn't it?
20:52 So be careful with that lie.
20:54 Two, some people say, "It has phytochemicals
20:58 which have an effect and could actually increase cancers
21:05 That is not what we found when we analyze groups that have
21:10 high levels of soy.
21:13 See, I travel to many countries in Asia and the interesting
21:17 thing is that actually in Asia, you find the most
21:21 healthy people on planet earth.
21:23 It is not the Mediterranean - in the Mediterranean you still
21:27 have a lot of heart disease, a lot of strokes, a lot of
21:30 diabetes - rates are a little bit lower than the Western
21:33 world, but they are still quite present and very common,
21:37 and number one causes of death.
21:39 Yet when you travel to rural Asia where people have been
21:45 eating high levels of soy for long periods of time,
21:50 you find very low rates of things like breast cancer
21:55 and prostate cancer and so forth, when you analyze the
22:00 epidemiology of countries like Japan and you compare them
22:04 like the U.K. or Australia and so forth.
22:08 So it actually has an anticancer effect, the consumption
22:13 of the soy products.
22:14 So that's just the very opposite of what is being alleged.
22:17 That's right! It has an anticancer effect.
22:20 Also some people say that it actually increases heart
22:26 disease - again through theoretical models,
22:30 you may think that, but that's not what we found.
22:34 When you compare heart attack rates with countries like
22:38 Thailand and Japan and so forth against Australia for example,
22:45 the rates are phenomenally different.
22:48 People have less heart disease there, yet they consume
22:53 much more soy products. Yes.
22:55 And also the sex hormones - some people I've seen in my
23:00 clinical consultation, they come and they're afraid
23:03 that they're not going to want to give soy milk
23:07 to their boys because they may become effeminate and so forth.
23:12 I can tell you that does not happen in the clinical practice
23:18 when you see and start to follow-up that.
23:22 See, the beneficial effects of soy actually are very
23:28 markedly seen in ladies that are passing through their menopause.
23:35 When they're passing through their menopause, when you
23:37 compare Australians, U. K., America against those people
23:43 in rural Asia where they have high levels of soy,
23:47 the amount of menopause-related problems such as the famous
23:53 hot flashes - are almost unknown there.
23:56 Some of them don't even have a term for that, do they?
23:59 That's right! It's just something that happens.
24:02 So that's why even some phytoestrogens may be actually
24:07 beneficial to take for those ladies going through that
24:12 process of the change of life.
24:15 And one worrisome thing about milk is that it increases
24:21 something that is called, "the insulin growth factor"
24:26 or also known as IGF-1, and high protein foods - milk, meat,
24:34 and chicken increase this.
24:36 See, this factor makes things grow fast!
24:40 So, for example, you have tumor cells - every single one of us
24:45 generates tumor cells every day, our immune system
24:49 takes care of them, but if you have onboard too much
24:53 of that IFG, you can actually encourage the growth of
24:59 those cancer cells which is negative.
25:03 Now soy in excess could have this negative effect,
25:09 just be temperate, don't drink the whole gallon of soymilk.
25:13 If you drink just a couple of cups of soymilk,
25:17 you are perfectly fine.
25:20 Excess theoretically could be problematic, so just use
25:24 temperance and use legumes as rotation, you know
25:27 not only milk but there are many other legumes
25:31 you can take advantage of that.
25:34 So that idea that you need strong bones and only milk
25:40 can give it to you, that is actually not correct.
25:42 It's not the reality, it's not what happening.
25:44 I mean, we saw that image there and as the calcium increased,
25:50 so did the hip fracture rate, so it's not just an isolated
25:54 study - this is whole populations that's being
25:57 demonstrated throughout whole populations.
25:59 But that is not valid to say that milk is going to do it.
26:03 And many people don't realize what they are drinking!
26:06 For example, the international standards including here
26:11 in Australia allow a certain number of white blood cells.
26:16 Do you know what white blood cells are? Of pus!
26:19 When you are drinking milk,
26:22 there is pus inside of that milk.
26:27 It has a certain limit that it should have (Oh that's nice!)
26:31 but it is allowed to have that. Ohh.
26:34 I've seen many kids in the clinical practice, they have
26:38 repeated infections of the ear and sinus and so forth;
26:44 we take them off dairy.
26:46 Those things disappear!
26:48 And this is published in pediatric journals,
26:50 I'm not making this up, because milk is rich also
26:54 in certain bacteria also.
26:57 So why expose yourself to these
27:02 kind of issues if you can avoid it.
27:06 And also the terminology is a little bit deceptive.
27:08 "Whole milk," are you aware, is 49% fat, I mean it's
27:13 tremendously high.
27:15 In fact, low fat milk still is pretty high, it's 21% fat
27:20 if you were to remove all the water that is in it.
27:23 So that is actually not the best of the ideas.
27:28 I would encourage you, go to the internet,
27:30 find substitutes and try them out.
27:33 You will enjoy them, I guarantee you.
27:35 Well thank you for that and I'm sure that some of our
27:39 listeners would have found some of
27:41 what you're saying a little bit of a big surprise.
27:43 A little bit of a big surprise, whichever way it goes.
27:46 So I hope that you will be able to take that onboard
27:50 and begin to move towards the plant sources.
27:53 So you have certainly given us some food for thought today,
27:57 and I pray that God will bless the efforts of
28:00 our viewers and our listeners.
28:02 And if you'd like to watch our programs on demand,
28:05 just go to our website that's: 3abnaustralia.org.au
28:09 click on the watch button and
28:10 you can see these programs again.
28:12 God bless you.