Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180101A
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00:30 Welcome to "Intimate Clarity"
00:32 I'm Jason Bradley and here with me today is 00:35 Jennifer Jill Schwirzer 00:36 She is a licensed, professional counselor and today we are going 00:39 to be talking about a sensitive topic, 00:42 but it's a conversation that 00:43 we need to have because the world is talking about it... 00:46 and it's not always from a Biblical perspective. 00:49 When God created marriage and sexuality, do you think that 00:54 He created it to be equal Jen? 00:57 I think so... we see this wonderful paradox 01:00 in Genesis 1:27, it says, "God created man in His image; 01:05 in the image of God created He him." 01:07 And then it says, "Male and female created He them." 01:11 So on one side of the symmetry, we have God created 01:15 man and woman and everything God creates is what? 01:18 It's good, God is good. All the time. 01:21 All the time. God is good. That's right! 01:23 So everything God creates is good and He pronounces it good. 01:27 So He never wanted to seem like one of the genders 01:29 is superior to the other; that would be against 01:32 the Biblical model of creation of the genders. 01:35 But on the other hand it says, "Male and female created 01:39 He them," so we are equally good, but at the same time, 01:43 we are different and what we need to do is maintain 01:47 the tension between those two things because on 01:49 the one hand - some forces in the world today say that 01:53 one is better than the other, and on the other hand, 01:57 there's an effort to completely obliterate the differences, 02:01 and so we need to keep that tension carefully. 02:04 Now, I personally believe that when God created 02:08 man and woman, it was a horizontal relationship, 02:12 and I'm going to explain where I'm coming from 02:14 and give you some evidence, but I want to acknowledge 02:17 up front that people feel differently about this. 02:19 There are different interpretations and ideas, 02:22 but this is mine... That God created man and 02:24 woman in a horizontal configuration; 02:27 there was no need for one to leave the other because 02:30 there was no conflict because there was no sin. 02:33 So there was really no need for hierarchy in 02:36 in that relationship - in my thinking. 02:38 But unfortunately, as a result of sin, there was a 02:42 subjection - subjugation, I should say, of the woman 02:45 to the man and I get that from Genesis 3:16... 02:48 where God gave Eve the punishment that would come 02:51 upon her or the consequences of her sin and they were 02:54 basically three things... Okay 02:56 "You'll have pain and toil in childbearing, 02:58 your desire will be toward your husband, 03:01 and the third is... he will rule over you." 03:04 It's very interesting to unpack that... 03:06 The pain and toil of childbearing is huge. 03:09 Oh man, it looks like it. It is. 03:11 And you never have been through that and you never will, 03:14 but I can assure you, having been through two births 03:16 with no anesthesia - God wasn't kidding when He said that. Wow! 03:21 But I think that that's referring, by the way, 03:22 to a lot more than just the birth process. 03:24 I think it's referring to ALL the difficulties that come upon 03:27 women because of their reproductive ability; 03:31 PMS, perimenopause and menopause, all those things 03:35 have symptoms and difficulties. 03:36 PLUS, I think it's talking about the social aspects 03:38 of it where women are always caring for children, 03:42 and for people that might not be biologically children, 03:46 might act like children - women are the caregivers 03:49 in the whole system. 03:50 So there's a lot of pain and suffering that is entailed 03:53 in those roles, but beyond that it says... 03:56 Your desire will be towards your husband, 03:58 and that's an interesting word, it's "teshuqah," 04:01 and it means... "To stretch out after." 04:03 We only see it in two other places in the Bible. 04:06 We see it in "Song of Solomon," where it's talking about 04:08 marital love and desire, but also in Genesis 4 04:12 where it's talking about SIN, desiring to have Cain 04:16 in the sense of tempting him. 04:18 It's a very mysterious word, but what I think 04:20 what it's referring to, in my opinion, 04:22 is this innate drive women have to acquire 04:25 the approval of their husband. 04:28 And then the third part of that consequence of sin 04:30 that came upon Eve was that he would rule over her. 04:33 So, I can't go to an extreme and say that there's no 04:37 hierarchy after the fall, I can see that in the marital 04:41 relationship and I could see it in the New Testament too 04:44 where women are enjoined to submit to their husband. 04:46 Let me ask you this... Do you think that both 04:48 parties, you know - the man and the woman both 04:52 want approval from each other? 04:54 I do... I think the marital relationship is so close 04:57 and that person knows you better than anyone. 05:00 But I think women especially are inclined to give up 05:04 their own selves that even to the point of 05:06 giving up their own consciences 05:08 for the approval of their husbands and we call that 05:10 "codependency or enabling," Wow! 05:12 and it's common in both, but it's more common in 05:15 women in my opinion, in my observation. 05:17 So that third part, "he will rule over you," 05:19 is the part that feminists really don't like to hear. 05:22 I'm probably in the middle somewhere, 05:25 I'm not into patriarchal kind of configurations in the 05:29 home - that can be very oppressive and controlling. 05:32 But I also have to acknowledge the Bible does say... 05:35 "Women submit yourself to your husband," 05:37 so it's interesting it never says, "Husbands 05:39 make your wives submit," so it's always 05:41 a voluntary submission. Yes 05:43 And that tells me that the quality of the submission 05:46 is a free-will submission. Um hm 05:50 And so it seems that there would be something 05:52 in that husband that would elicit that submission 05:55 from the wife and I believe that that's servant leadership. 05:58 It speaks to the leadership style. Exactly! 06:01 There are so many leadership styles... 06:03 There's your dictator and then there's that servant-leader. 06:08 That's exactly... and that servant-leader makes that 06:11 woman want to submit, and if you think about it, 06:14 in a dangerous world, the woman caring for her 06:16 children is a very vulnerable little unit there, 06:19 and she needs the protection of a leader as well. 06:22 So that's how I think it works out. 06:24 I think that originally we were configured this way, 06:26 as a result of the fall there an accommodation made, 06:29 but through servant leadership, the way servant 06:32 leadership works is it lifts people back up 06:34 to that horizontal configuration where it's appropriate. 06:38 Obviously, we're not equal with God, 06:39 so even though He's a servant-leader in our lives, 06:41 we're never going to be equal with Him, 06:42 but in that original design, they were equal 06:46 and I think that's God's ideal that we should strive for that.. 06:49 to obtain as close to the Edenic model as possible. 06:53 Does that make sense? That does. 06:55 That does make a lot of sense and I thank God 06:58 that we are different. Yes, I know! 07:00 I'm thankful for those differences! 07:02 Makes life much more interesting! 07:03 It does, you know, you don't want to be the SAME 07:06 as... yeah, that definitely doesn't work for me. Yeah! 07:09 But I like that there are differences, 07:12 and I like that servant-leader. 07:13 And in the healthiest marriages, there is both 07:16 an equality partnership kind of spirit between 07:20 the two or they work together on solving the 07:22 problems that are entailed in raising a family... 07:25 And at the same time, there is a respect for those 07:27 differences and that's an acknowledgement that we're 07:29 not exactly the same and you're naturally going to prefer 07:31 certain things and I'm going to naturally prefer other things. 07:35 So a beautiful quote here, this is from 07:37 "Patriarchs and Prophets" and it's a book written by 07:40 "Ellen White" and she nailed it. 07:42 She wrote this quite a while ago, but she said... 07:44 "In the creation, God had made her, Eve, the equal of Adam; 07:49 had they remained obedient to God, in harmony with 07:52 His great law of love, they would ever have been 07:54 in harmony with each other, but sin had brought discord 07:58 and now their union could be maintained and harmony 08:01 preserved only by submission on the part of one or the other. 08:05 Eve had been the first in transgression; 08:07 she had fallen into temptation by separating from her 08:10 companion contrary to the Divine direction. 08:13 It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned and she was 08:16 now placed in subjection." 08:18 So this happened after the fall. 08:21 It wasn't before the fall or why would it have been 08:23 assigned after the fall, but now she was placed 08:26 in subjection. 08:27 Had the principles enjoined in the Law of God been 08:31 cherished by the fallen race, this sentence though growing 08:35 out of the results of sin, would have proved a 08:38 blessing to them, so God's curses become 08:40 blessings in Christ. 08:42 And it would have been a blessing to them, 08:43 but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him 08:48 has too often rendered the lot of woman 08:51 very bitter and made her life a burden. 08:53 So, man has abused that advantage and it has been 08:56 to the demise and to the harm of everyone 08:59 involved and especially the women. 09:00 I think that sexuality takes us back to Eden in a way, 09:05 and that equality that we see was God's original design 09:10 is something that we experience in the full extent 09:13 in an intimate relationship with our spouse... 09:16 And there are many opportunities that we have 09:19 in that intimate relationship to exercise that servant 09:23 leadership, that self- sacrificing principle within 09:26 the context of the relationship. 09:29 Women have a slower response cycle than men. 09:34 They just move more slowly in an intimate situation. 09:38 Women can be 30 to 40 minutes. 09:40 Men, they can be anywhere from 10 to 15 or 20, 09:43 sometimes 5 if it's a really young man, 09:46 and so that gives the members of that couple an opportunity 09:51 to really minister to each other even though we're different. 09:55 There are other differences; women are more complicated. 09:58 The word that is used to describe the creation of woman 10:02 really, literally means "architect." 10:04 God architected Eve, if I can say it that way. 10:06 But the word for His creation of Adam means sculpted, 10:10 like a potter sculpts clay. Okay 10:12 So that "architect," it sounds a lot more complicated 10:14 to me and women are more physically complicated 10:17 particularly in the sexual department... 10:20 And so it behooves men to learn how women work, 10:23 and how do we learn how each other works? 10:25 We learn by communication and by being willing 10:29 to sacrifice for one another and understand one another 10:33 even though we're different. Yes! 10:34 Yes, so what you're saying is there is a certain complexity... 10:40 That's right. ... to the woman, the way that 10:42 she was formed, the way that she was architected. 10:48 So there's a certain complexity there and there are 10:51 differences between the male and female. Yes 10:53 Okay. And those differences give us 10:55 an opportunity to serve one another and to understand 10:59 and empathize and stretch ourselves to know someone 11:03 who is vastly different from us. 11:05 And that's really the core of unselfishness, 11:08 is being able to stretch ourselves out and understand 11:11 someone who is different than us. Yeah 11:13 And women and men are very, very different in unique 11:17 and complimentary ways. Praise the Lord for that! 11:19 In a good way. Yeah, ha, ha, ha. 11:21 Another area is that women's sexuality is accessed 11:25 through their emotions. 11:27 Men's sexuality is accessed more directly. 11:31 So, if a man expects a woman to access the way he does, 11:35 he's going to make her sometimes feel violated 11:38 or like a sex object. Um hm 11:41 But if a woman, on the other hand, doesn't appreciate 11:44 the fact that her husband is just a little more direct 11:46 in his sexuality, she can make him feel dirty or somehow 11:50 out of line and so we need to understand 11:52 we're different - appreciate the differences, 11:54 but be willing to stretch. 11:56 So like finding that balance. That's right. 11:58 That's gotta be a difficult thing to find 12:01 is that balance. Yes 12:03 Another area is that men tend to have a higher sex drive. 12:06 They tend to, you know, have higher levels of testosterone. 12:10 And in both males and females, testosterone is what drives 12:13 the sex drive, so men tend to want sex more than women, 12:18 and this proverbial thing in marriage like "not tonight dear, 12:20 I have a headache," it's usually the woman saying that, 12:23 sometimes it's the man, but usually, stereotypically, 12:26 it's the woman because women's sex drive tends to be 12:29 a little lower than a man because they have lower 12:31 levels of testosterone. 12:33 Well what are we going to do with that? 12:35 For men, sexual fulfillment in a marriage is very, very 12:38 important, but for women it's not usually. 12:41 Now it can be different and I've counseled couples, 12:44 it's amazing how many times this thing is reversed, 12:47 but I'm talking about generalities here. 12:49 I'm not trying to pigeonhole anyone, but generally 12:52 men are gonna have a higher sex drive, particularly 12:54 when they're younger and what are we going to do with that? 12:57 Are we going to accommodate one another and appreciate 12:59 one another and let the woman subdue the man's sex drive 13:03 and let the man draw the woman out or are we going to 13:06 put each other down because somehow being different 13:08 means that you're inferior. 13:10 No, we need to appreciate and value one another. 13:13 This is my thinking... Absolutely! Yeah 13:15 So do you think that, like in those situations 13:18 where it's flipped around, that there may be some kind 13:20 of testosterone deficiency in the male? 13:24 There can be... there can be a sexual 13:27 addiction; there can be depression; 13:30 there can be medications that the man can be on that 13:32 can cut down his sex drive. 13:34 There can be a lot of things going on, 13:35 that's where counseling comes in - you can kind of 13:37 unpack it and get to the core 13:39 of what's going on, but it does happen. 13:41 Wow Jen, in this short amount of time, we really unpacked a lot. 13:45 Give us a quick summary of what we talked about. Sure. 13:48 God created man and woman equal, but He created 13:52 them different and sexuality gives us an opportunity 13:57 to experience both the equality of the mutuality, 14:01 the horizontality of that relationship, but also the 14:05 differences. Wow! Yeah 14:06 You know what really jumped out to me was the whole 14:08 servant leadership model and that's how Christ 14:11 loves the church and that's how the man should 14:13 love the woman. Amen 14:14 Well it's been great sitting here and talking to you. 14:17 And I hope that you will join us 14:18 next time on "Intimate Clarity" |
Revised 2018-07-10