Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180106A
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality.
00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation may be
00:07 too candid for younger audiences.
00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
00:32 I'm Jason Bradley,
00:33 and I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
00:35 She is a licensed professional counselor.
00:38 And today, we are going to talk about a sensitive topic,
00:40 but it's a conversation we need to have.
00:44 Jen, what is the modesty and does it help
00:47 promote a healthy sexuality or does it suppress it?
00:51 So modesty in the most broad sense of the term
00:54 is humility about yourself.
00:57 But typically, when we say modesty,
00:58 we are thinking of clothing,
00:59 and typically, when we say modesty,
01:01 we're thinking of women's clothing.
01:03 But there's other forms of modesty.
01:05 People can be modest about their wealth
01:07 and wear humble clothing,
01:08 drive humble cars, and so forth.
01:10 But because we are talking about sexuality,
01:11 let's focus in on what most people are thinking
01:13 when they say modesty and that is women's clothing.
01:17 And the trend we see in the world
01:18 where women are exposing more and more,
01:20 we have talked about the fact that Adam and Eve
01:24 had that naked and not ashamed experience before the fall,
01:28 and then as a result of the fall
01:30 felt the need to cover up,
01:31 we talked about body shaming and so forth.
01:34 And we talked about how when a man and a woman
01:37 in a married relationship experience intimacy,
01:40 they get to go back to that naked
01:42 and not ashamed experience.
01:45 And so my thinking is that what's going on spiritually
01:49 when a woman is in modest with her clothing in a way
01:52 that put's on display her sexuality,
01:55 in a way that distracts and draws attention to her,
01:58 I think there's probably a desire
02:01 for that naked and not ashamed experience,
02:04 but she is kind of taking a shortcut to try to get there,
02:07 so in a way it's a false intimacy,
02:09 it's an instant intimacy
02:11 where she gets that experience of feeling,
02:14 you know, exposed, not being ashamed,
02:17 but I don't think it really works for her and the long run,
02:20 yeah, yeah.
02:23 It's interesting, you know, like everything that God has
02:26 Satan has a counterfeit for it.
02:28 And so where we see the God promoting love,
02:31 you know, we see Satan promoting lust.
02:34 And so it's a constant battle.
02:37 But I just wonder, I think, it's very helpful for us
02:41 as people trying to reach people on the world
02:43 to look at what's going in their hearts
02:46 behind the things we do rather
02:47 than just condemning their actions.
02:49 And I really think that
02:50 there is a craving for intimacy in our world today
02:53 and a craving for love and affection,
02:55 but what we see is that
02:57 it's actually being driven out of the world.
02:59 So Jesus said
03:02 because iniquity shall increase men's love will wax cold,
03:07 and that's talking about natural affection
03:09 between human beings.
03:11 And then we see in...
03:12 That's Matthew 24:12
03:14 and when we see in 2 Timothy 3:3
03:16 that, "One of the signs of the end
03:19 is that people are without 'natural affection.'"
03:22 So we see as iniquity begins to abound,
03:25 people's ability to love one another
03:27 and experience that intimacy
03:30 is really being driven out of the human race,
03:33 and that's a tragic outcome of sin in our world today,
03:37 and so I think that a lot of what's going on with immodesty
03:40 and various forms of immorality as well
03:43 is just a desire for love, a desire for intimacy,
03:45 and we should treat it as such.
03:47 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
03:49 Again, it's God's perfect image being distorted.
03:53 And if you think about it,
03:55 intimacy is a really high risk venture, very, very high risk.
03:58 What we risk
04:00 when we try to form an intimate relationship of any kind,
04:02 and this isn't just a married relationship
04:04 but any kind of friendship,
04:06 where we were on an emotionally intimate level,
04:09 is we risk being rejected,
04:12 i.e. may be they won't love me...
04:14 So like a level of vulnerability.
04:15 That's right. Okay.
04:17 And we also risk wanting to reject them
04:19 if you get locked into a relationship,
04:21 what if you want to out, maybe I won't like them,
04:24 you know, so intimacy for both of those reasons
04:27 is a really high risk venture
04:29 and we'd rather take a shortcut,
04:32 we'd rather just get that instant gratification and feel,
04:35 you know, that sense of intimacy
04:36 without having to do the work
04:37 because really true intimacy is predicated on
04:42 sacrificing the lower for the higher,
04:45 the lower of human nature for the higher,
04:47 the self-centeredness of human nature
04:49 for the relationship itself.
04:53 And every single one of us in any kind of relationship,
04:56 especially a married relationship
04:57 but any kind of relationship,
04:59 if we are going to continue that relationship,
05:01 we are going to have to pass that threshold
05:04 where natural affection is no longer gratifying
05:07 because we have been confronted with our own selfishness.
05:11 And in order to stay in that relationship,
05:13 we have to cross that threshold,
05:15 and that requires sacrifice.
05:18 It required sacrifice of God himself.
05:21 He came to earth and in...
05:23 And God is a perfect holy being,
05:25 but in order to love us,
05:27 he had to himself experience sacrifice.
05:30 So how much more those of us
05:31 that have a carnal selfish nature
05:34 need to experience sacrifice in order to love.
05:36 Yeah, and that dying to self process is an everyday thing,
05:41 you know, sanctification is the work of a lifetime.
05:43 So we have to constantly die to self.
05:46 Sacrifice the lower for the higher, that's right.
05:48 Absolutely. That's right.
05:49 So one of the factors as I see it in fear of intimacy
05:55 is what I would call covetousness
05:57 where I want what I don't have
06:00 and I don't want what I do have,
06:02 and I see this a lot with young people.
06:03 So okay, okay.
06:05 So this is kind of like the grass is greener
06:07 on the other side of the fence
06:09 That's right. Type of philosophy there. Okay.
06:11 I see that a lot with young people
06:12 that are trying to find a life partner,
06:14 and they are on dating and then
06:17 you know, someone may be is interested in them,
06:20 but as soon as they kind of get that person,
06:22 then suddenly they don't want that people anymore,
06:25 and that's based on a phenomenon
06:26 we call perceived value complex,
06:29 where an individual perceives that
06:31 which is not available to them as being more valuable,
06:35 and they perceive that which they possess
06:38 as being less valuable.
06:40 It's kind of like the "runaway bride" syndrome
06:42 where whenever you have commitment,
06:44 you know, you flee, you runaway.
06:46 So I think a lot of young people
06:49 that have come divorced homes
06:51 where they don't see model in their parent's
06:53 that intimacy and that commitment
06:54 really struggle with this
06:56 where commitment is terrifying to them
06:58 because they've never seen it acted out
07:00 in their parent's lives,
07:02 and so I want to say to them
07:04 that you can get past that threshold,
07:07 but you have to do it intentionally
07:08 'cause you're going to want to run,
07:10 you're going to want to run.
07:11 Yeah, to me, it seems like you would want to build something
07:15 with that special someone that's going to last,
07:18 like why do you want to try something new here
07:21 and new there and new there, and what's the...
07:23 I've seen it where people will be in a relationship
07:28 with someone where they actually have a shot
07:30 at building a relationship with them
07:32 and they will then really back out of that relationship
07:38 or panic and want to get out of that relationship
07:41 because suddenly they see,
07:42 in high relief, all the flaws of that person,
07:46 but then suddenly they are out of that relationship
07:49 where they are seeing someone from a distance
07:50 and all they can see is the good stuff, yeah.
07:54 And could it also be that like maybe sometimes
07:57 in the beginning of that relationship,
07:59 you know, when oxytocin and the dopamine
08:01 and all that stuff is being released,
08:03 like the honeymoon stage,
08:05 the individual ignored the warning signs...
08:08 That there was something wrong.
08:10 That were there, they ignored the red flags that were there
08:12 because of that initial release of those hormones,
08:16 and then a month, two months, two years later,
08:20 they are like, "Wait a minute."
08:21 Yeah, yeah, so you are in this relationship
08:24 and all of a sudden you are panicking because you...
08:26 And that's the nature of sexual attraction
08:29 is that it tends to blind you.
08:31 And that's another really good purpose for modesty is that
08:34 when you don't put on display those things
08:37 that would summon up those hormones in another person
08:40 or those physiologic reactions in another person
08:43 or those psychological reactions in another person,
08:46 you are giving them a chance of getting to know you
08:49 apart from that experience.
08:51 And a lot of times,
08:52 that can help stabilize people
08:53 and give them a shot at
08:55 building a more solid relationship.
08:57 So I am into modesty, I am into common sense modesty.
09:00 I've been through several different phases of my life,
09:04 you know, believing in modesty as different things.
09:07 I remember a phase when I was much more old-fashioned
09:10 in the way I dressed, should I say that.
09:12 I think modesty is wearing what is...
09:17 If we are talking about modesty as dress,
09:19 it's wearing what is the most conservative
09:22 but is also something that is accepted
09:25 and normal in that society provided that
09:28 that society has something reasonably modest
09:30 so they consider it normal.
09:32 Yeah, it's getting pretty crazy out there.
09:34 Pretty crazy words. Absolutely.
09:35 Yeah, I remember working for an academy
09:37 and the staff of the academy
09:38 just said, "We need to go to uniform
09:40 'cause kids can't find modest clothes anymore."
09:43 So we're getting to that point, but I still think that
09:45 there are decent clothes that you can wear
09:48 and you can get away with being modest
09:50 and still looking normal.
09:53 You know, and as a guy,
09:54 you know, I think a woman looks beautiful
09:56 in modest attire as opposed to
09:59 I don't want to see everything, you know what I mean?
10:00 Putting everything on display. Yeah.
10:02 And the other thing is there is a double standard,
10:04 like if you think about evening wear,
10:06 evening wear for a man is a suit,
10:08 you are covered, you are, you know, modest,
10:11 and you are wearing flat shoes
10:12 so you can walk and you can function,
10:15 evening wear for women is really high heels
10:17 and all kind of hair and, you know,
10:21 plunging neckline a lot of times, skimpy attire,
10:24 various parts showing, much less physically
10:27 to say for that woman, much less warm for them,
10:30 you know, women can get a chill from,
10:33 you know, evening air and so forth,
10:35 but she is supposed to be, you know, pretty much unveiled,
10:38 and so it's really an unfair double standard
10:41 when it comes to modesty.
10:43 Men get away with modesty a lot easier than women do.
10:46 That is... You know?
10:47 I would agree with that.
10:48 You would have it a lot easier than we do.
10:50 It's just... It's really crazy.
10:52 But so, you know, modesty at its core
10:55 is being willing to present myself in a way that enables...
11:02 And I'm speaking of young women here,
11:03 that enables young men to get to know me
11:07 without having to struggle
11:09 with undue feelings of attraction or summoning up,
11:13 you know, physical reactions from that young man
11:16 and getting it to where they want to look me in the face
11:18 and get to know me as a person.
11:19 Yeah, not being someone's stumbling block.
11:22 Yeah. Yeah.
11:23 And we need to not monsterfy all men either
11:25 and assume that all they want is,
11:28 you know, sexual things.
11:29 Men are human beings,
11:30 they're made in the image of God,
11:32 and many men want to get to know a woman
11:34 on that very deep soul level
11:36 and really come to know them as a person
11:38 and don't want to be distracted
11:40 by invasive thoughts of sexual things.
11:42 Yeah, absolutely.
11:44 And I mean, when you look at it,
11:46 if you have a marriage that was predicated on sex,
11:50 then your marriage is most likely going to fail
11:53 because you're lacking that true relationship,
11:55 that friendship as we've talked about before, that best friend,
12:00 you need to have the best friend in your spouse.
12:03 That's right.
12:04 I've often wondered why God makes people
12:06 at the beginning of life so beautiful,
12:08 and then we tend to lose our looks as we get older...
12:10 I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here
12:12 'cause I'm aging myself,
12:13 but, you know, we go through that prime
12:15 where we are just as beautiful as we will ever be,
12:17 and face it, you know,
12:19 there is a certain amount of attraction factor in that
12:22 and a man becomes interested in a woman
12:24 and a woman in a man,
12:25 it leads to some degree because of the way they look.
12:29 I would think it would be better to make them
12:31 as ugly as they will ever be during that phase
12:33 so that you get to know them as a person.
12:34 But God didn't do it that way, did He?
12:38 And so we have to kind of wrestle
12:40 with this powerful physical attraction
12:41 between males and females
12:44 and really navigate around it and make sure that we know
12:47 that we are in it for the right reasons as well.
12:50 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
12:52 You should feel like your wife is,
12:54 you know, as a guy, as a man, you should feel like
12:57 your wife is the most beautiful woman in the world.
13:00 And, you know, there... At all stages.
13:03 And what happens in the male brain regarding his wife
13:08 is there is a chemical reaction when they become intimate
13:11 where there is this huge amount of oxytocin
13:14 that floods the system, and what happens is
13:17 that leads to the man to sort of imprinting the wife,
13:21 you see like baby ducks imprinting after their mother,
13:25 there is an imprint that takes place there
13:27 where the woman becomes the man's standard of beauty
13:30 for the rest of his life if it's done right.
13:33 And every woman will be less beautiful in his mind
13:37 than she is.
13:39 Yes, wow. That's amazing.
13:40 Yeah, it's powerful. Yes, it is.
13:42 And God wants to give men that gift.
13:44 And if they will be modest
13:45 and they will appreciate modesty,
13:47 and respect the boundaries that God puts
13:51 on premarital relationships,
13:53 then they will be set up to experience just that.
13:57 Don't take your spouse for granted.
13:58 That's right. Love them while you have them.
14:00 That's right. Absolutely.
14:02 We've uncovered so much,
14:03 and it's time for us to go already.
14:07 Make sure that you check out our website IntimateClarity.TV
14:12 and make sure you join us next time
14:14 on another wonderful episode of Intimate Clarity
14:17 where we discuss intimate topics with biblical clarity.