Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180106A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation may be 00:07 too candid for younger audiences. 00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. 00:32 I'm Jason Bradley, 00:33 and I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer. 00:35 She is a licensed professional counselor. 00:38 And today, we are going to talk about a sensitive topic, 00:40 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:44 Jen, what is the modesty and does it help 00:47 promote a healthy sexuality or does it suppress it? 00:51 So modesty in the most broad sense of the term 00:54 is humility about yourself. 00:55 Okay. 00:57 But typically, when we say modesty, 00:58 we are thinking of clothing, 00:59 and typically, when we say modesty, 01:01 we're thinking of women's clothing. 01:02 Yes. 01:03 But there's other forms of modesty. 01:05 People can be modest about their wealth 01:07 and wear humble clothing, 01:08 drive humble cars, and so forth. 01:10 But because we are talking about sexuality, 01:11 let's focus in on what most people are thinking 01:13 when they say modesty and that is women's clothing. 01:15 Hmm. 01:17 And the trend we see in the world 01:18 where women are exposing more and more, 01:20 we have talked about the fact that Adam and Eve 01:24 had that naked and not ashamed experience before the fall, 01:28 and then as a result of the fall 01:30 felt the need to cover up, 01:31 we talked about body shaming and so forth. 01:34 And we talked about how when a man and a woman 01:37 in a married relationship experience intimacy, 01:40 they get to go back to that naked 01:42 and not ashamed experience. 01:45 And so my thinking is that what's going on spiritually 01:49 when a woman is in modest with her clothing in a way 01:52 that put's on display her sexuality, 01:55 in a way that distracts and draws attention to her, 01:58 I think there's probably a desire 02:01 for that naked and not ashamed experience, 02:04 but she is kind of taking a shortcut to try to get there, 02:07 so in a way it's a false intimacy, 02:09 it's an instant intimacy 02:11 where she gets that experience of feeling, 02:14 you know, exposed, not being ashamed, 02:17 but I don't think it really works for her and the long run, 02:20 yeah, yeah. 02:21 Yeah. 02:23 It's interesting, you know, like everything that God has 02:26 Satan has a counterfeit for it. 02:28 And so where we see the God promoting love, 02:31 you know, we see Satan promoting lust. 02:34 And so it's a constant battle. 02:37 But I just wonder, I think, it's very helpful for us 02:41 as people trying to reach people on the world 02:43 to look at what's going in their hearts 02:46 behind the things we do rather 02:47 than just condemning their actions. 02:49 And I really think that 02:50 there is a craving for intimacy in our world today 02:53 and a craving for love and affection, 02:55 but what we see is that 02:57 it's actually being driven out of the world. 02:59 So Jesus said 03:02 because iniquity shall increase men's love will wax cold, 03:07 and that's talking about natural affection 03:09 between human beings. 03:11 And then we see in... 03:12 That's Matthew 24:12 03:14 and when we see in 2 Timothy 3:3 03:16 that, "One of the signs of the end 03:19 is that people are without 'natural affection.'" 03:22 So we see as iniquity begins to abound, 03:25 people's ability to love one another 03:27 and experience that intimacy 03:30 is really being driven out of the human race, 03:33 and that's a tragic outcome of sin in our world today, 03:37 and so I think that a lot of what's going on with immodesty 03:40 and various forms of immorality as well 03:43 is just a desire for love, a desire for intimacy, 03:45 and we should treat it as such. 03:47 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 03:49 Again, it's God's perfect image being distorted. 03:52 Yeah. 03:53 And if you think about it, 03:55 intimacy is a really high risk venture, very, very high risk. 03:58 What we risk 04:00 when we try to form an intimate relationship of any kind, 04:02 and this isn't just a married relationship 04:04 but any kind of friendship, 04:06 where we were on an emotionally intimate level, 04:09 is we risk being rejected, 04:12 i.e. may be they won't love me... 04:14 So like a level of vulnerability. 04:15 That's right. Okay. 04:17 And we also risk wanting to reject them 04:19 if you get locked into a relationship, 04:21 what if you want to out, maybe I won't like them, 04:24 you know, so intimacy for both of those reasons 04:27 is a really high risk venture 04:29 and we'd rather take a shortcut, 04:32 we'd rather just get that instant gratification and feel, 04:35 you know, that sense of intimacy 04:36 without having to do the work 04:37 because really true intimacy is predicated on 04:42 sacrificing the lower for the higher, 04:45 the lower of human nature for the higher, 04:47 the self-centeredness of human nature 04:49 for the relationship itself. 04:53 And every single one of us in any kind of relationship, 04:56 especially a married relationship 04:57 but any kind of relationship, 04:59 if we are going to continue that relationship, 05:01 we are going to have to pass that threshold 05:04 where natural affection is no longer gratifying 05:07 because we have been confronted with our own selfishness. 05:11 And in order to stay in that relationship, 05:13 we have to cross that threshold, 05:15 and that requires sacrifice. 05:17 Yes. 05:18 It required sacrifice of God himself. 05:21 He came to earth and in... 05:23 And God is a perfect holy being, 05:25 but in order to love us, 05:27 he had to himself experience sacrifice. 05:30 So how much more those of us 05:31 that have a carnal selfish nature 05:34 need to experience sacrifice in order to love. 05:36 Yeah, and that dying to self process is an everyday thing, 05:41 you know, sanctification is the work of a lifetime. 05:43 So we have to constantly die to self. 05:46 Sacrifice the lower for the higher, that's right. 05:48 Absolutely. That's right. 05:49 So one of the factors as I see it in fear of intimacy 05:55 is what I would call covetousness 05:57 where I want what I don't have 06:00 and I don't want what I do have, 06:02 and I see this a lot with young people. 06:03 So okay, okay. 06:05 So this is kind of like the grass is greener 06:07 on the other side of the fence 06:09 That's right. Type of philosophy there. Okay. 06:11 I see that a lot with young people 06:12 that are trying to find a life partner, 06:14 and they are on dating and then 06:17 you know, someone may be is interested in them, 06:20 but as soon as they kind of get that person, 06:22 then suddenly they don't want that people anymore, 06:25 and that's based on a phenomenon 06:26 we call perceived value complex, 06:29 where an individual perceives that 06:31 which is not available to them as being more valuable, 06:35 and they perceive that which they possess 06:38 as being less valuable. 06:40 It's kind of like the "runaway bride" syndrome 06:42 where whenever you have commitment, 06:44 you know, you flee, you runaway. 06:46 So I think a lot of young people 06:49 that have come divorced homes 06:51 where they don't see model in their parent's 06:53 that intimacy and that commitment 06:54 really struggle with this 06:56 where commitment is terrifying to them 06:58 because they've never seen it acted out 07:00 in their parent's lives, 07:02 and so I want to say to them 07:04 that you can get past that threshold, 07:07 but you have to do it intentionally 07:08 'cause you're going to want to run, 07:10 you're going to want to run. 07:11 Yeah, to me, it seems like you would want to build something 07:15 with that special someone that's going to last, 07:18 like why do you want to try something new here 07:21 and new there and new there, and what's the... 07:23 I've seen it where people will be in a relationship 07:28 with someone where they actually have a shot 07:30 at building a relationship with them 07:32 and they will then really back out of that relationship 07:38 or panic and want to get out of that relationship 07:41 because suddenly they see, 07:42 in high relief, all the flaws of that person, 07:46 but then suddenly they are out of that relationship 07:49 where they are seeing someone from a distance 07:50 and all they can see is the good stuff, yeah. 07:54 And could it also be that like maybe sometimes 07:57 in the beginning of that relationship, 07:59 you know, when oxytocin and the dopamine 08:01 and all that stuff is being released, 08:03 like the honeymoon stage, 08:05 the individual ignored the warning signs... 08:08 That there was something wrong. 08:10 That were there, they ignored the red flags that were there 08:12 because of that initial release of those hormones, 08:16 and then a month, two months, two years later, 08:20 they are like, "Wait a minute." 08:21 Yeah, yeah, so you are in this relationship 08:24 and all of a sudden you are panicking because you... 08:26 And that's the nature of sexual attraction 08:29 is that it tends to blind you. 08:31 And that's another really good purpose for modesty is that 08:34 when you don't put on display those things 08:37 that would summon up those hormones in another person 08:40 or those physiologic reactions in another person 08:43 or those psychological reactions in another person, 08:46 you are giving them a chance of getting to know you 08:49 apart from that experience. 08:51 And a lot of times, 08:52 that can help stabilize people 08:53 and give them a shot at 08:55 building a more solid relationship. 08:57 So I am into modesty, I am into common sense modesty. 09:00 I've been through several different phases of my life, 09:04 you know, believing in modesty as different things. 09:07 I remember a phase when I was much more old-fashioned 09:10 in the way I dressed, should I say that. 09:12 I think modesty is wearing what is... 09:17 If we are talking about modesty as dress, 09:19 it's wearing what is the most conservative 09:22 but is also something that is accepted 09:25 and normal in that society provided that 09:28 that society has something reasonably modest 09:30 so they consider it normal. 09:32 Yeah, it's getting pretty crazy out there. 09:34 Pretty crazy words. Absolutely. 09:35 Yeah, I remember working for an academy 09:37 and the staff of the academy 09:38 just said, "We need to go to uniform 09:40 'cause kids can't find modest clothes anymore." 09:42 Yeah. 09:43 So we're getting to that point, but I still think that 09:45 there are decent clothes that you can wear 09:48 and you can get away with being modest 09:50 and still looking normal. 09:51 Absolutely. 09:53 You know, and as a guy, 09:54 you know, I think a woman looks beautiful 09:56 in modest attire as opposed to 09:59 I don't want to see everything, you know what I mean? 10:00 Putting everything on display. Yeah. 10:02 And the other thing is there is a double standard, 10:04 like if you think about evening wear, 10:06 evening wear for a man is a suit, 10:08 you are covered, you are, you know, modest, 10:11 and you are wearing flat shoes 10:12 so you can walk and you can function, 10:15 evening wear for women is really high heels 10:17 and all kind of hair and, you know, 10:21 plunging neckline a lot of times, skimpy attire, 10:24 various parts showing, much less physically 10:27 to say for that woman, much less warm for them, 10:30 you know, women can get a chill from, 10:33 you know, evening air and so forth, 10:35 but she is supposed to be, you know, pretty much unveiled, 10:38 and so it's really an unfair double standard 10:41 when it comes to modesty. 10:43 Men get away with modesty a lot easier than women do. 10:46 That is... You know? 10:47 I would agree with that. 10:48 You would have it a lot easier than we do. 10:50 It's just... It's really crazy. 10:52 But so, you know, modesty at its core 10:55 is being willing to present myself in a way that enables... 11:02 And I'm speaking of young women here, 11:03 that enables young men to get to know me 11:07 without having to struggle 11:09 with undue feelings of attraction or summoning up, 11:13 you know, physical reactions from that young man 11:16 and getting it to where they want to look me in the face 11:18 and get to know me as a person. 11:19 Yeah, not being someone's stumbling block. 11:22 Yeah. Yeah. 11:23 And we need to not monsterfy all men either 11:25 and assume that all they want is, 11:28 you know, sexual things. 11:29 Men are human beings, 11:30 they're made in the image of God, 11:32 and many men want to get to know a woman 11:34 on that very deep soul level 11:36 and really come to know them as a person 11:38 and don't want to be distracted 11:40 by invasive thoughts of sexual things. 11:42 Yeah, absolutely. 11:44 And I mean, when you look at it, 11:46 if you have a marriage that was predicated on sex, 11:50 then your marriage is most likely going to fail 11:53 because you're lacking that true relationship, 11:55 that friendship as we've talked about before, that best friend, 12:00 you need to have the best friend in your spouse. 12:03 That's right. 12:04 I've often wondered why God makes people 12:06 at the beginning of life so beautiful, 12:08 and then we tend to lose our looks as we get older... 12:10 I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here 12:12 'cause I'm aging myself, 12:13 but, you know, we go through that prime 12:15 where we are just as beautiful as we will ever be, 12:17 and face it, you know, 12:19 there is a certain amount of attraction factor in that 12:22 and a man becomes interested in a woman 12:24 and a woman in a man, 12:25 it leads to some degree because of the way they look. 12:29 I would think it would be better to make them 12:31 as ugly as they will ever be during that phase 12:33 so that you get to know them as a person. 12:34 But God didn't do it that way, did He? 12:37 Yeah. 12:38 And so we have to kind of wrestle 12:40 with this powerful physical attraction 12:41 between males and females 12:44 and really navigate around it and make sure that we know 12:47 that we are in it for the right reasons as well. 12:50 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. 12:52 You should feel like your wife is, 12:54 you know, as a guy, as a man, you should feel like 12:57 your wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. 13:00 And, you know, there... At all stages. 13:01 Absolutely. 13:03 And what happens in the male brain regarding his wife 13:08 is there is a chemical reaction when they become intimate 13:11 where there is this huge amount of oxytocin 13:14 that floods the system, and what happens is 13:17 that leads to the man to sort of imprinting the wife, 13:21 you see like baby ducks imprinting after their mother, 13:25 there is an imprint that takes place there 13:27 where the woman becomes the man's standard of beauty 13:30 for the rest of his life if it's done right. 13:32 Wow. 13:33 And every woman will be less beautiful in his mind 13:37 than she is. 13:39 Yes, wow. That's amazing. 13:40 Yeah, it's powerful. Yes, it is. 13:42 And God wants to give men that gift. 13:44 And if they will be modest 13:45 and they will appreciate modesty, 13:47 and respect the boundaries that God puts 13:51 on premarital relationships, 13:53 then they will be set up to experience just that. 13:55 Absolutely. 13:57 Don't take your spouse for granted. 13:58 That's right. Love them while you have them. 14:00 That's right. Absolutely. 14:02 We've uncovered so much, 14:03 and it's time for us to go already. 14:07 Make sure that you check out our website IntimateClarity.TV 14:12 and make sure you join us next time 14:14 on another wonderful episode of Intimate Clarity 14:17 where we discuss intimate topics with biblical clarity. |
Revised 2018-08-09