Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180111A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned this presentation 00:07 may be too candid for younger audiences. 00:32 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. 00:33 I'm Jason Bradley, and I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer. 00:36 Now she is a licensed professional counselor, 00:40 and today we're going to talk about a sensitive topic, 00:44 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:46 That's right. 00:48 Jen, in case of extreme problems in a marriage, 00:50 do you think that separation can be a good thing? 00:54 Personally, I do. 00:55 I want to give deference to other schools of thought. 00:59 There are marriage counselors, 01:01 you know, Christian marriage counselors 01:03 that say that separation is a step toward divorce, 01:06 and we want to preserve marriages. 01:07 And so, you know, that's true, it's a fact. 01:10 But I think that sometimes 01:12 a separation can save a marriage. 01:14 But let me... 01:15 Before I go into that, let me talk about 01:17 how God feels about His marriage to His people. 01:21 God said about marriage, "What God has joined together, 01:24 let no man separate", Mark 10:9. 01:28 And we're told in Malachi 2:16 that God hates divorce. 01:33 But even though God hates divorce, 01:35 I'm not convinced that He hates separation 01:37 because He Himself separated from His people. 01:42 Often His people would descend into idolatry 01:45 and He would say things like what He said in Isaiah 54:7, 01:49 "For a brief moment, I abandoned you, 01:51 but with deep compassion, I will bring you back." 01:53 The people would descend into idolatry 01:56 but the absence of God's presence, 01:58 so God's Spirit would give them that wake-up call 02:01 that they needed to come to their senses, 02:03 they would repent of their sins, 02:04 and then they would be reunited with God. 02:06 And so sometimes separation... 02:09 Sometimes our presence gives the message 02:11 that what you're doing is okay, even what's not okay. 02:13 Okay. 02:15 So kind of like you become an enabler type of thing... 02:17 That's right, that's right. 02:19 Where ends up being like a codependent 02:21 situation in some cases. 02:23 That's right, and it can very quickly 02:25 become very dysfunctional where even the person say 02:27 it's an abuse situation, 02:29 even the person being abused can, 02:31 in an unconscious way, 02:32 contribute to the abuse cycle by enabling, 02:36 by being codependent. 02:37 And so sometimes, they need the separation 02:40 in order to kind of break that feedback loop, 02:42 that continuum in their own mind, 02:45 so that they can get kind of a reset. 02:46 Okay. 02:48 And come back, you know, with, you know, a better attitude, 02:52 and with more clarity, 02:53 and better boundaries in that relationship. 02:56 I love that you used "more clarity." 02:59 Yeah, because that's the name of our program. 03:00 That's right, Intimate Clarity, that's right. 03:02 So the problems in a marriage may not be sufficient 03:05 to justify divorce but it might be 03:08 that there needs to be a wake-up call, like I said. 03:11 So let me give you some examples of that. 03:13 Of course, any type of physical abuse and some people, 03:17 and I respect them, 03:18 believe that physical abuse 03:20 is grounds for divorce and I can see 03:21 where they're coming from on that. 03:23 But I can't seem to get around the words of Jesus 03:25 where the only grounds He gave were adultery. 03:28 And I have seen marriages 03:30 in which there was physical abuse, 03:32 recover from it. 03:34 So I'm not saying you have to stay in a marriage 03:36 where there's physical abuse, not saying that, 03:37 it's your choice, your decision but... 03:39 Yeah, say, like for me, 03:41 I would think that 03:42 it would be in terms of... 03:43 Well, I would think that it would be grounds 03:46 and the reason why I would think that is because, 03:49 like, you don't want to stay in a situation 03:52 where somebody could beat you to death, or kill you, 03:54 or whatever the case may be. 03:55 That's right. 03:57 Well, kind of prevailing wisdom in Christian circles is that 03:59 the three criterion for divorce are abandon, the three A's, 04:04 adultery, abandonment, and abuse, 04:07 and I respect that thinking. 04:09 However, I think often it may be worth it 04:12 to try separation first because sometimes 04:16 separation can salvage the relationship. 04:19 So if there's physical abuse, 04:20 financial abuse, emotional abuse, 04:22 you need to get away from that situation 04:25 because you're going to get hurt. 04:27 And what you're doing by staying in that situation 04:30 is you're actually giving the abuser 04:32 an opportunity to hurt you. 04:35 And by giving them that opportunity, 04:37 you're actually, you know, in a sense 04:39 indirectly contributing to their sin problem. 04:42 So you want to remove yourself from that situation 04:45 if there's any kind of abuse going on. 04:47 And like I said, 04:48 that can sometimes 04:50 create an environment in the relationship, 04:53 even though you're withdrawn from the relationship, 04:55 where they can start to come to their senses. 04:57 It can kind of give God a direct shot at them. 05:00 Sometimes in a relationship, 05:02 we actually block the access 05:03 of the Holy Spirit to that person, 05:06 and if we remove ourselves, 05:07 then God will be able to get a direct shot at them. 05:10 Yeah, you can do that in less extreme ways 05:13 than physically separating, moving out of the home, 05:16 by simply emotionally withdrawing, 05:18 for instance, from an argument. 05:19 But if it gets to the point where you know 05:20 you're in a dangerous situation, 05:22 and you're losing your own bearings, 05:24 and you're putting yourself in harm's way, 05:26 and through prayer and council you come to the point 05:29 where you need to separate 05:31 and you know you need to separate, 05:32 it can save a marriage. 05:34 But I think it needs to be done 05:35 in a way that I call structured separation. 05:38 Unpack that, what is structured separation? 05:41 Okay, structured separation is not just "I'm leaving, 05:43 I'm so mad at you, I can't stand you, 05:45 I'm not staying here anymore." 05:46 Structured separation is more deliberative than that, 05:49 it's more intentional than that. 05:50 So what the individual 05:52 that is seeking a structured separation does 05:55 is usually they write a letter to their spouse, 05:59 and in the letter they begin with love and commitment. 06:03 They say, "I love you, 06:05 I am committed to this relationship, 06:08 I am not seeking another relationship, 06:10 I'm not looking to end this relationship 06:12 and seek another. 06:13 I'm committed, I'm here, I want you and me. 06:17 But I want you and me 06:18 in a better form than we currently have." 06:21 We're better than this 06:22 is basically what you're saying. 06:24 And then you very carefully identify the problem, 06:27 this is what's going on that I cannot accept, 06:31 that I cannot tolerate, 06:32 and you talk about the effects of the problem, 06:34 how it's affecting you, how it's affecting them, 06:37 how it's affecting children if there are children involved. 06:40 And then you very clearly state your requirements 06:43 for returning to that relationship 06:45 or to a live-in situation in that relationship. 06:48 Sometimes it's simply... 06:49 We need to go to counseling, 06:51 that's all I'm asking is counseling. 06:52 Sometimes you need to get counseling 06:55 and you need to get past your sexual addiction 06:57 or you need to get to the place 06:59 where you've gotten to the bottom 07:01 of why you get physically or verbally violent. 07:04 Uh-huh. 07:06 You need to get to the bottom of that, 07:07 and you need to give me evidence 07:09 that you have gotten better and there need to be 07:11 other people in your life, 07:13 professionals that are impartial people 07:15 telling me that now it's safe to live with you now. 07:18 Yeah. 07:19 And so it really depends on the situation, 07:20 what your criterion for reuniting happens to be. 07:24 But, you know, wise woman told me once that... 07:26 And I'm going to be a little bit 07:29 stereotypical here, 07:31 in an abuse situation, it's not always the man, 07:33 believe me, it's not always the man 07:34 abusing the wife but it often is. 07:37 And often the wife will be telling the husband 07:41 that she's unhappy, and that this is terrible, 07:44 and she'll be laboring with him verbally 07:47 and he won't hear a thing she says, 07:48 and nothing she says seems to impact him. 07:51 But once she moves away, suddenly... 07:55 Yeah, that speaks volume. 07:56 He hears thunders, that's right. 07:58 Uh-huh. 07:59 And this woman told me, you know, 08:00 "Men often don't hear what women say, 08:03 they hear what they do." 08:04 So sometimes the only thing 08:06 that will speak to that person is "I'm leaving." 08:09 It goes back to that saying, 08:10 "Actions speak louder than words." 08:12 That's right. Let me ask you this question. 08:13 So how do you end that letter? Like how do you end that? 08:17 Yeah, good question. 08:18 You have to close the letter with hope, and faith, 08:21 and that basic message that we're better than this, 08:23 in Jesus, we can get through this, 08:25 we can experience change, 08:26 this doesn't have to keep going this way. 08:28 I will not live in this situation 08:30 if it's going to be this way, 08:31 but I believe it can be different. 08:33 So it's kind of like a criticism sandwich, right? 08:35 It's totally an affirmation sandwich. 08:37 You're starting with the good. Yeah. 08:39 Then you introduce the issues, like, 08:41 that need to be addressed and then you end with... 08:44 And you establish the fact that you're, you know, 08:47 you want to work this out, 08:48 you want to be there and work it out. 08:50 It's just like Revelation 3 and Jesus talking to His bride, 08:52 the church, and generally as He speaks to each, you know, 08:56 church which represents an era of Christianity, 08:58 He'll say, this is what I'm happy with, 09:01 this is what I'm not happy with, 09:02 and this is what I want you to do, 09:04 and then He'll say something that 09:05 that generally that engenders faith and hope 09:07 that things can change. 09:08 So yeah, it's a very, very good model. 09:10 It's a good model to follow in any relationship, 09:13 in friendships, in parent-child relationships, 09:15 when you have something negative 09:17 to bring to that person, 09:19 to affirm what's right in the relationship, 09:23 and then issue the criticism, 09:25 and then follow it up 09:26 with what's right and what's good, 09:28 and the hope that you have in that relationship recovery. 09:31 We call it an affirmation sandwich in our family. 09:34 And, you know, the reality is that... 09:38 The criticism to affirmation ratio 09:41 in relationships needs to be... 09:44 It used to be 6 to 1, you know, the experts would say. 09:48 Now they're saying 20 to 1. 09:50 So we need to do a lot more affirming 09:52 and a lot less criticizing. 09:54 However, 09:55 and this is a very important sort of disclaimer. 09:58 Marriage counselors working with couples 10:01 will say that there's a set of rules that apply. 10:06 But really kind of all bets are off, everything changes 10:09 when you're dealing with an abuse situation. 10:11 Okay. 10:12 For instance, in counseling couples, I will often try, 10:16 if an individual comes to me says 10:18 they're having trouble with their marriage, 10:19 I'll try to get the spouse into the counseling office 10:23 so that we can work together to try to resolve that. 10:26 But if there's abuse going on, 10:27 I won't do that 10:28 until the individual perpetrating 10:30 the abuse has received counseling 10:33 and has come to the point of change in themselves. 10:35 And then I'll try to bring that couple together 10:38 because what'll happen is all the empathies 10:40 that would normally work in a relationship 10:43 on the part of the victim 10:45 will be exploited by the abuser. 10:47 Yeah. Yeah. 10:48 So... 10:50 And then if you make that reintroduction too soon, 10:52 you're just entering them back into a hostile situation. 10:56 That's exactly right and that's, you know, 10:58 to come right down to it, 11:00 that is the purpose of separation 11:02 is to try to salvage the relationship, 11:05 do everything you can to salvage the relationship, 11:08 which sometimes means temporarily getting away 11:10 from the relationship and giving that person 11:12 an opportunity to really think about what they're doing, 11:16 and really reckon with God over what they're doing, 11:19 and come to their senses. 11:21 Kind of like a self-reflection type of moment, yeah. 11:24 Yeah, and I'm a Seventh-day Adventist 11:27 and one of the most prominent of figures 11:29 of Seventh-day Adventists is a lady named Ellen White, 11:32 and she wrote volumes and volumes about marriage, 11:35 and really affirmed marriage in a powerful way, 11:38 and was very biblical in her view 11:39 with marriage and divorce by the way. 11:41 But she actually separated from her husband 11:43 for a period of time that's kind of a well-kept secret 11:45 but I have letters that she wrote to her husband 11:48 while they were separated 11:50 and they followed this formula of affirmation sandwich, 11:53 as we're calling it, perfectly. 11:54 Really? She basically... 11:56 "I love you, I'm committed to you, 11:58 I'll do anything for this relationship 12:00 but these things are happening 12:02 and I can't be with you right now. 12:05 When these things resolve, when you come to your senses, 12:07 then we can reunite, yeah, she was very, very strong. 12:10 I didn't realize that. 12:12 I have never read anything that's so perfectly 12:17 really manifested the love of God 12:19 in the way He deals with an abusive situation 12:23 as I read in her letters to her husband. 12:26 And apparently, what happened, and it's a sad situation, 12:29 apparently what happened was he had several strokes, 12:33 and the strokes affected his behavior, 12:35 and he became jealous, possessive, 12:37 and really emotionally abusive to her. 12:40 And for her own sanity, 12:42 she separated from that situation. 12:44 Yeah. Yeah. 12:46 Well, it sounds like it was a good move on her part, 12:49 they ended up getting back together. 12:50 Yeah. 12:52 And it was a strong relationship from... 12:54 From that point forward, yeah. 12:56 I believe that separation can save a marriage, 12:59 I believe it can done right and done, 13:02 led by God's Spirit and I would just caution people, 13:05 don't do it haphazardly. 13:06 Uh-huh. 13:07 Seek out counselors or safety in a multitude of counselors, 13:10 so if you have a handful of people, 13:12 pastor maybe or an elder at the church, 13:14 you know, friends that are, 13:16 you know, wise people that have capabilities of working 13:20 through difficult problems like this, 13:22 gather those people around you, 13:23 tell them what you're considering, 13:25 ask for their input, and pray, then pray, 13:28 take those things to God 13:30 because people can give bad counsel. 13:31 You take those things to God, 13:33 and really pray and fast over it, 13:35 and do it with God's leading, 13:37 God's guidance, and in God's Spirit. 13:39 And sometimes that can save a marriage, 13:40 personally I believe. 13:42 I know there's people that would question that, 13:43 but this is where I've landed as a marriage counselor 13:46 and as a human being. 13:48 Yeah, and that's... 13:50 If you can preserve the marriage, 13:52 ultimately that's the best what we need to do 13:54 is preserve the marriage. 13:55 That's what we want, that's the endgame. 13:57 Absolutely. 13:58 Even if it's inconvenient, 13:59 and that's a lot of the reason people don't separate 14:01 because it's so inconvenient, 14:02 you know, it's just easier to stay there. 14:04 You know, what's really inconvenient 14:05 is the fact that our time is up. 14:06 Oh, yeah. That's true. 14:09 Well, there's just not enough time. 14:11 Make sure you tune in next time, 14:13 but if you would like more resources, 14:14 go to IntimateClarity.tv and check out the website. 14:19 We'll see you next time. 14:20 God bless. |
Revised 2018-10-08