Intimate Clarity

Clarity On Same Sex Attraction

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript



Series Code: IC

Program Code: IC180114A

00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality.
00:05 Parents are cautioned
00:06 this presentation may be too candid
00:08 for younger audiences.
00:31 Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
00:33 I'm Jason Bradley,
00:34 and here with me is Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
00:37 She is a licensed professional counselor.
00:40 And today, we're going to be discussing a sensitive topic,
00:43 but it's a conversation we need to have.
00:46 Jen, is same sex attraction evidence that a person is gay?
00:50 That's a really good question,
00:52 and I think you probably think it is, right?
00:55 I would say so, yeah.
00:57 That's the way, yeah, you've always felt.
00:58 Well, the reality is not necessarily.
01:01 Of course there's a gamut, you know,
01:03 and we can't say one thing for every person's experience,
01:06 but many people experience same sex attraction.
01:11 Let me blow your mind with a statistic in one study,
01:15 it says that up to 60%...
01:16 This is just one study, and you know how research is,
01:19 so please don't, you know, I shared this with my husband,
01:21 he like had a visceral rage response.
01:25 Sixty percent boys.
01:26 Sixty percent of pre-adolescent boys
01:30 engage at some point
01:31 in some kind of same sex activity.
01:33 Sixty percent.
01:34 Yeah, yeah, you're freaking out like my husband did.
01:36 Yeah, I'm freaking out. That means like 40%...
01:39 Are the ones that don't. Wow.
01:42 Yeah, but the thing is that
01:45 whether the 60 is correct or not, it may not be,
01:47 I've read other pieces that say it's 37%,
01:49 you know, it's just different.
01:51 That's a high percentage.
01:52 Research is not always particularly accurate.
01:56 It can, you know, anyway, so don't bank too much on that,
01:59 but believe me,
02:01 and I'm speaking as a counselor here
02:03 that talks to people about their stories all the time,
02:05 a lot of people have same sex encounters,
02:06 particularly in boys.
02:08 Wow.
02:09 You know, pre-adolescent boys
02:11 are wildly experimental sexually
02:12 and if they don't have any guidance
02:14 and any parental supervision,
02:15 they get into all kinds of things.
02:17 And so having a same sex encounter
02:19 or even same sex attraction does not necessarily mean
02:25 that you are homosexually oriented.
02:29 There's an expression these days,
02:31 it's very popular in the politically correct set
02:35 if I can say it that way.
02:36 Okay.
02:38 That sexuality is fluid, and we love that statement
02:41 because, you know, we want to be able to wake up tomorrow,
02:44 and if I feel like being a man tomorrow,
02:46 I can be a man or if I feel like having,
02:48 you know, a relationship with a unicorn,
02:50 I can have a relationship with a unicorn.
02:52 Sexuality is fluid, you know, whatever says goes,
02:54 there's no boundaries,
02:56 this is said often in order to deny the idea
03:00 that there's any kind of form
03:01 or structure to human sexuality,
03:03 but...
03:04 Yeah, I mean that's crazy, like...
03:06 And then when you look at Satan...
03:08 Yeah.
03:09 Like, his whole thing is do as thou wilt,
03:12 whatever you want, do it.
03:13 You know, like, that's Satan's philosophy.
03:15 Okay.
03:16 But I would say that there's an element of truth
03:19 to sexuality is fluid.
03:20 Okay.
03:21 I don't think it's fluid in the sense
03:23 that it's morally okay to do anything you want to do,
03:25 but I do think that we will acclimate
03:28 to things that we do,
03:30 so we can develop an appetite through participation.
03:33 By beholding we become changed. Yes.
03:35 And by participating we become changed.
03:37 So in that sense sexuality is fluid.
03:40 So this is what's said over and over again
03:42 to give people license in that set, so to speak,
03:46 but then you imply
03:48 that someone who is homosexual or gay
03:51 could maybe be fluid enough
03:53 to be attracted to the opposite sex
03:56 and you're told you're a Nazi, you know,
03:58 so there's like inconsistency there.
04:00 That sounds like a double standard.
04:02 It is. It's not, yeah.
04:03 It's extremely inconsistent. Yeah.
04:05 So I believe that sexuality is fluid
04:07 in the sense that we will adapt to what we participate in
04:11 and often develop an appetite for the thing that we do.
04:14 And that can work for good or for evil.
04:17 This is Alfred Kinsey.
04:18 He's the first sexologist in the field of psychology.
04:21 He spoke, worked back in the 1900s, and he said,
04:25 "The histories
04:27 which have been available in the present study
04:30 make it apparent
04:32 that the heterosexuality or homosexuality
04:34 of many individuals is not an all or nothing proposition."
04:40 That was way back in the mid 1900s.
04:42 And I agree with him. Sometimes it is.
04:45 I was born heterosexual.
04:48 I was always,
04:50 you know, I've been that way my whole life.
04:51 I'm pretty much dyed in the wool so to speak,
04:53 and I assume that you are dyed in the wool heterosexual.
04:55 Yes, yes.
04:57 And there are people I believe
04:59 that are pretty much same sex attracted
05:03 from as early as they can remember.
05:05 And in that sense, we could say they're homosexually oriented,
05:09 but I think there's a whole gamut of people in between
05:12 that can have varying degrees of flexibility
05:14 on these issues.
05:16 And so I just propose that we accept that,
05:19 "Yeah, sexuality by and large is a fluid thing."
05:24 So there are various things
05:25 that can predispose us to same sex attraction,
05:27 I'd like to cover some of those.
05:29 Okay.
05:30 There are, I believe, biological factors,
05:33 there's a big discussion in the scientific world today
05:36 about whether there's a gay gene or not.
05:40 And I'll try to flesh this out real quickly,
05:42 the Christian opponents of the homosexual lifestyle
05:45 will often say, "Well, no.
05:46 There can't be anything genetic influencing homosexuality.
05:50 It has to be your choice
05:51 because if you were born that way,
05:53 then that means God made you flawed
05:55 and God makes everything perfect."
05:57 Well, I don't think that's a complete view
05:58 of human nature.
06:00 God says we're made perfect and then we fell.
06:02 Yeah.
06:04 And all kinds of deviancies and maladaptive tendencies
06:07 came into human experience at that time,
06:09 so just the fact that you have an inclination
06:13 does not mean that God baptizes that inclination.
06:17 So I believe people can be born
06:19 with predispositions towards sin,
06:22 and that doesn't mean that they have an excuse
06:24 to commit that sin.
06:25 Yeah, if you're born,
06:28 you know, predisposed to being an alcoholic
06:31 or whatever the case may be,
06:32 it doesn't mean
06:33 that you have to venture down that path.
06:35 That's right.
06:36 My dad had a terrible temper,
06:37 I believe I received the genetics of his bad temper,
06:40 and I also watched him blow up, you know, in my childhood,
06:43 and I learned the lesson
06:44 that in order to get control of a situation
06:46 that makes me uncomfortable, I blow up, that's what I do.
06:49 And I learned that from him
06:51 and then I practiced it for a while in my adult life,
06:53 and it took some real prayer
06:55 and striving with the Holy Spirit
06:57 to try to understand how to change that,
06:58 but God was able to change that,
07:00 and I don't blow up at my husband like I used to,
07:02 thank God.
07:03 You can ask him about that if you want to.
07:05 But here are some of the...
07:07 I still get a little cheeky once in a while,
07:08 but it's not as bad as it used to be.
07:09 So here's some of the things that predispose
07:11 to same sex attraction,
07:13 there are biological factors.
07:14 There's something called
07:16 the fraternal birth order effect
07:18 or the older brother effect.
07:20 Okay, break that down.
07:22 What is that? Okay.
07:23 Fraternal birth order effect or older brother effect
07:25 is simply that with each subsequent male a woman bears,
07:31 there's a higher likelihood
07:33 that that male will be same sex attracted.
07:37 That's right.
07:39 They think, possibly, they don't really know why,
07:42 but they think possibly
07:43 it's because she creates certain antibodies
07:46 in bearing a male fetus.
07:47 Okay.
07:49 That then affect a future fetus in a way that feminizes
07:52 or somehow interrupts the sex differentiation process.
07:56 So there could be some biological factors.
07:59 And that really draws our hearts out
08:01 to people that have same sex attraction.
08:04 They may have come by very honestly
08:06 and in fact I think many of them do.
08:08 I don't think we lose anything from admitting that.
08:11 So there's that fraternal birth order effect,
08:13 and by the way they've controlled
08:15 for developmental process
08:17 so that means that things like
08:19 a boy being sexually abused by his older brothers,
08:22 they've controlled for all those variables,
08:24 and so they're pretty sure that it's a biological effect.
08:27 Another thing that can lead to same sex attraction
08:30 is same sex abuse in childhood.
08:33 It can, doesn't always,
08:34 but it can eroticize same sex relationships.
08:39 Also, maltreatment in early childhood
08:41 is heavily correlated with same sex attraction,
08:45 people that are abused.
08:46 Why is that?
08:48 I'm not sure the reasons why,
08:49 I think it's an attempt to numb pain probably
08:53 and that there's also
08:55 maybe an element of wanting to reject authority,
08:59 because authority harmed
09:01 and then rejection of authority
09:04 could lead to just experimenting
09:07 with all kinds of behaviors, I don't know.
09:08 So do you think is that, you know, if the abuser,
09:12 let's say, it's a guy in the house
09:14 or whatever, and then the abuser wasn't the father,
09:18 then the man you would think,
09:22 the man would become gay possibly or...
09:26 The child that abused?
09:27 Possibly, I mean, I'm saying that
09:30 aside from being abused by a same sex individual
09:35 and eroticizing a same sex relationship,
09:37 besides that,
09:38 just abuse in the home or maltreatment in the home
09:41 is correlated with same sex attraction.
09:43 Just generally when you have a chaotic home life
09:46 or an abusive home environment,
09:47 you're going to have higher levels of people
09:49 with same sex attraction.
09:50 We don't know exactly why.
09:52 It could be a host of reasons,
09:53 but one of the things that Nicole Parker brings out,
09:55 and she's done a paper on homosexual lifestyle,
09:58 and she's correlated difficulty resolving conflict
10:02 with homosexual lifestyle.
10:04 So it could be that people grow up
10:06 in these chaotic environments
10:08 and they attempt this lifestyle as a way of coping with it.
10:12 In any case, I think we need to have a lot of compassion
10:16 for people that struggle with same sex attraction
10:20 and still I don't think
10:21 the best solution is to live in that lifestyle,
10:24 in those behaviors, yeah.
10:26 And, you know, what we're asking,
10:28 what we're asking of people with same sex attraction,
10:30 and some of them have been that way
10:33 from the time they can remember
10:35 and can't even conceive of being anything else.
10:38 What we're asking of them, what we're saying to them,
10:41 and what I think the Bible is saying to them
10:43 is follow Jesus and be celibate.
10:47 And we need to be very sensitive to that
10:49 because we haven't put that on ourselves.
10:51 Now I do believe that there is no temptation taken
10:54 such as is common to man.
10:56 In other words, we all have temptations
10:58 and they're all similar,
11:00 but I haven't had to live as a celibate.
11:03 So I want to be extra sensitive.
11:04 And I want to say this too
11:06 that I think gay people in church
11:09 have to depend more on the church family.
11:13 If they're going to lead that celibate life
11:15 and not have a family of their own,
11:16 they're going to have to lean more on the church family
11:19 to get their emotional needs met.
11:21 And emotional needs are very real.
11:23 We can't deny them.
11:25 They're going to lean more heavily on the church family.
11:27 And that means that we that are in biological families
11:30 need to be extra compassionate
11:32 and really cultivate a healthy environment for singles.
11:37 You know, sometimes we make it seem
11:38 like the only way to be normal is to be married.
11:40 And what does that say to single people?
11:42 There will be single people in church,
11:44 they will not have a partner,
11:45 and we want them to have that family experience
11:47 where they can get their emotional needs met
11:49 in the family of God
11:50 so they're not tempted to go to the local gay bar
11:53 and get their emotional needs met there.
11:55 And so we want to cultivate that in church,
11:57 and that means really pouring ourselves out
12:00 for people in church,
12:01 and not just going home after church,
12:02 and taking a nap, lay activities.
12:04 Yeah.
12:06 And then just being all about us in our own people,
12:07 you know...
12:09 Yeah, being an active member in the church, reaching out,
12:12 loving, pouring out love on individuals
12:15 when they come visit the church,
12:18 and not judging on the outward appearance per se.
12:21 That's right.
12:23 You know, I think of the council,
12:24 I believe it is Paul's writings,
12:26 I don't remember exactly where, but he says,
12:28 "Treat older women as mothers, younger women as sisters..."
12:32 Then I think, "Older men as fathers."
12:34 And then he says, "In all purity."
12:36 So we are to have a family-like relationship
12:39 with the boundaries
12:40 that God placed over human sexuality
12:43 so that our love is pure,
12:45 but it needs to be a very intense satisfying love
12:48 in the body of Christ.
12:49 We should not be content
12:51 with just superficial relationships,
12:53 it's not going to do it.
12:54 And if we're going to ask homosexually oriented people
12:57 or people with same sex attraction
13:00 to give up on having a partner for life
13:04 and then not offer them anything to replace that,
13:07 not offer them warmth of fellowship to replace that,
13:10 what are we saying to them?
13:11 That's really kind of cruel.
13:12 So we need to provide that something better.
13:15 You know, God doesn't just take away something bad,
13:17 He gives us something better.
13:19 Absolutely. Yeah.
13:21 Man, this is... It's an intense discussion.
13:22 Interesting discussion. Yeah.
13:24 I still can't get past that 60%,
13:27 I'm still stuck on that.
13:28 That 60% is a big number.
13:31 But you've learned something here, haven't you?
13:32 You've learned that just because someone has
13:36 one same sex encounter or same sex attraction
13:40 doesn't mean that they are gay.
13:42 It's not an all or nothing proposition.
13:45 There are some that may never experience anything else,
13:48 but there are quite a few that are flexible
13:50 and can go either way.
13:51 And to pigeonhole them as being gay
13:54 when maybe they were just experimenting
13:56 is a mistake.
13:58 Yeah.
13:59 Wow, you have so much excellent content.
14:03 And I can't believe that our time is just about up.
14:06 Yeah.
14:07 It just goes by too fast. Yeah.
14:09 For more information
14:11 make sure that you go to
14:14 where you'll be able to access resources
14:17 that will help you as you grow in Christ.
14:20 God bless.


Revised 2018-09-27