Intimate Clarity

Clarity On Gay Behavior

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript



Series Code: IC

Program Code: IC180116A

00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality.
00:05 Parents are cautioned
00:06 this presentation may be too candid
00:08 for younger audiences.
00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity.
00:32 I'm Jason Bradley,
00:33 and I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
00:35 and she is a licensed professional counselor,
00:38 and today we're going to discuss a topic
00:40 that is sensitive in nature,
00:42 but it's a conversation we need to have.
00:44 Jen, what does homosexual be...
00:47 What does the Bible say about homosexual behavior?
00:50 Yeah, I wanted to spend
00:51 at least one segment addressing that
00:53 because I'm trying to live by the Bible,
00:56 I'm trying to be a follower of Jesus,
00:58 and so I have to wrestle with things like this,
01:01 moral issues like this,
01:02 even though it's not my particular issue,
01:05 I help a lot of people,
01:06 and I feel as a mental health provider,
01:08 and as minister of the gospel, I should have something to say
01:11 about this really pressing issue.
01:14 But I have to say I'm very self-conscious about it,
01:17 I'm worried about offending people,
01:19 I'm afraid of offending people,
01:21 and I'm afraid of discouraging people
01:23 that are experiencing same sex attraction
01:26 because oftentimes when people start to experience
01:28 same sex attraction
01:30 and they read the things in the Bible
01:32 about what God says about homosexuality,
01:34 they personalize it,
01:36 and they think that God feels that way toward them.
01:39 And they end up in situations where they are depressed
01:42 and even sometimes suicidal.
01:44 So I never want to contribute to anything like that.
01:46 At the same time, I think I have to be fair with the data
01:49 and sexuality is sacred
01:52 and God has built it a certain way,
01:55 to function it certain way,
01:56 and when we break those boundaries,
01:59 and compromise that design, there are consequences to that.
02:02 So I'm walking a real fine line here.
02:05 There are only six texts in the Bible
02:07 that really directly address homosexuality,
02:11 and yet every time you see it mentioned,
02:13 the Bible is a univocal,
02:15 there are some issues
02:17 that the Bible will say something on one side
02:20 and then seem to say something
02:21 that kind of, not contradicts it,
02:24 but complements it on another side.
02:26 And you can be kind of ambivalent about something
02:28 'cause you're not quite sure what the Bible is saying,
02:31 but with homosexuality,
02:33 everything that is said is what we call univocal.
02:36 It always says the same thing
02:38 and there's really no affirmation
02:40 for homosexual behavior in the Bible,
02:44 and there are several texts
02:45 that really strongly denounce it.
02:47 And so I want to look at them one by one.
02:49 Okay.
02:50 One that is used,
02:52 and it's called the clobber text,
02:53 'cause it's one of those texts that Christians will hit
02:56 gay people over the head with is the thinking
02:59 and why it's called the clobber text.
03:00 Well, one that's used that I don't think should be used
03:02 in the discussion much at all is Genesis 19,
03:06 the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
03:07 Okay.
03:09 To give the story in brief, some angels come into town,
03:12 Lot invites them home,
03:13 the men of Sodom believe
03:15 that the angels are human beings,
03:17 they come to Lot's door,
03:18 they say, "Give those men to us.
03:20 We want to basically gang rape them."
03:22 Horrible story, there's more detail than that,
03:25 but that's not dealing
03:28 with consensual monogamous same sex relationships,
03:31 and that's the question on the table today
03:34 in church circles.
03:35 Is it okay for people to engage in same sex,
03:39 monogamous consensual loving relationships?
03:42 That's clearly not what's going on in Sodom.
03:44 There, that's gang rape,
03:45 so we're not really dealing with homosexuality alone there.
03:49 We're dealing with gang rape.
03:50 So I kind of feel like that one is off the table,
03:52 but then if we go forward, we find in Leviticus 18:22,
03:57 and Leviticus 20:13,
04:00 two verses that are part of
04:01 what's called the holiness code.
04:04 The holiness code is the section of the Torah
04:06 that deals in specific with moral issues
04:10 that I believe are timeless issues,
04:13 that really coincide with the Ten Commandments.
04:16 Okay.
04:17 And the reason I say that is because in the New Testament,
04:20 you remember what the Christian church was wrestling
04:23 with one of the laws of Moses to retain
04:27 and which of those laws to leave behind.
04:28 Yes.
04:29 Because of the new conference were being required
04:31 to be circumcised.
04:33 And so there was a big debate about that.
04:35 So they had what was called the Jerusalem Council
04:38 and we see in Acts 15
04:40 that the result of the Jerusalem Council
04:42 was that they retained three things,
04:46 inhibitions on idolatry, they prohibited idolatry,
04:51 they prohibited sexual immorality,
04:54 and thirdly the eating of blood.
04:56 So those are the three things,
04:57 they kind of boiled
04:58 the perpetual aspects of Moses Law
05:01 down to those three things.
05:03 Okay. Okay.
05:04 And go over those three things again.
05:05 And those are idolatry,
05:08 the sexual immorality, and the consuming of blood.
05:10 Okay.
05:11 And we see those three things
05:13 really unpacked in the holiness code.
05:14 So there seems to be sort of a resonance
05:16 between the holiness code of Leviticus 17-20
05:20 and the document that came out of the Jerusalem Council.
05:24 So it seems to be saying
05:25 that these are perpetual principles that you live by.
05:28 So basically in Leviticus 18:22 it says,
05:32 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman,
05:34 it is an abomination."
05:36 That's pretty straight forward.
05:37 Yeah, I mean, that's pretty clear cut to the point.
05:39 Leviticus 20:13,
05:41 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman,
05:43 both of them have committed an abomination,
05:45 they shall surely be put to death,
05:47 their blood shall be upon them."
05:48 There's heavy stuff here.
05:49 Yeah. This is heavy stuff.
05:51 And so people that argue for accepting
05:56 loving consensual monogamous
05:58 homosexual relationships in church
06:01 will say that this is not referring to that.
06:03 This is referring to male cult prostitution
06:07 which was very common in the ancient near East,
06:10 but you see nothing in the text
06:12 to indicate that that's what it's talking about.
06:13 No.
06:15 If there was something in the text that indicated
06:16 that, we could come to that conclusion.
06:17 Yeah, you see how a lot of people will try
06:19 and manipulate scripture and manipulate religion
06:23 or whatever the case may be to fit their lifestyle
06:26 and their preferences
06:27 rather than shaping their lifestyle
06:28 and their preferences
06:30 around the solid principles that are found.
06:33 Let me just say that's exactly what I'm doing here.
06:35 I am molding my ideas to God's Word
06:37 rather than thinking, "I think it's fine to be
06:39 if you're in a loving consensual..."
06:41 'Cause that's how my humanity would go.
06:42 I don't like restricting people
06:44 from anything they want to do to find love.
06:47 This is not how I am.
06:48 But then I look at the Word of God
06:50 and I have to be honest with it.
06:51 Romans 1:26-27,
06:54 Paul starts out the passage by mentioning the creation.
06:58 And in the context of creation, he says,
07:01 "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions
07:03 for even their women exchanged the natural use
07:05 for what is against nature."
07:08 Pay attention to that phrase, "Against nature."
07:10 "Likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman
07:13 burned in their lust for one another,
07:14 men with men committing what is shameful
07:16 and receiving in themselves
07:18 the penalty of their error which was due."
07:20 So that against nature phrases very telling.
07:23 We're talking about the context of creation.
07:25 God is saying here's the design
07:28 and what these individuals are doing
07:29 is against the design, against nature in that sense
07:33 because what's being said
07:34 is that it's against their personal nature,
07:36 they're heterosexual normally,
07:38 and they get in a party situation
07:39 or whatever,
07:41 and they have a same sex encounter.
07:43 But it's not talking about
07:44 against their individual nature,
07:46 it's talking about against the natural process,
07:51 the way the God created the natural world.
07:53 That's the divine design. That's right, the divine.
07:55 It's not hard to really come to that conclusion
07:58 when you look at the body parts involved
07:59 and how they fit,
08:01 it just doesn't work in the same sex encounter.
08:04 We won't be going into too much detail about that,
08:06 but let's also talk about 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10,
08:10 it mentions, effeminate malakoi,
08:12 the word malakoi in the Greek,
08:14 and homosexuals arsenokoites
08:16 along with another list of people of lifestyles
08:20 that lead people to be left out of the Kingdom.
08:24 And those words refer to the soft effeminate partner
08:28 in a same sex relationship, malakois, and arsenokoites,
08:32 it simply means male bed, it's talking about sleeping,
08:36 a male sleeping with a male.
08:38 There are a lot of arguments about what these words mean,
08:42 some people claim that they mean pederasty,
08:44 pederasty was common in Greek and Roman culture,
08:49 also in certain Asian cultures,
08:52 pederasty is man-boy love, and it was common that,
08:56 you know, for instance in Rome,
08:57 educated affluent men would have male concubines,
09:01 and it would be, you know, a very close relationship.
09:05 There's all kinds of layers of that,
09:07 but it was common in Roman culture,
09:09 and really very accepted,
09:10 but that doesn't seem to be what this is talking about.
09:13 The word arsenokoites means males sleeping with males,
09:17 not men sleeping with boys necessarily.
09:21 So I want to end
09:23 with a different thought though,
09:25 gets clear as the Bible is in its regard of homosexuals
09:30 or gay behaviors, it enlists us to love.
09:33 And I become saddened
09:35 when I see that Christians are so caught up
09:39 in really countering
09:41 the political agenda of the left,
09:43 that they end up being so invested
09:45 in the political agenda,
09:47 this issue becomes so politicized
09:49 that they shed more tears
09:51 about the legalization of gay marriage
09:54 than they shed over the gay neighbors
09:58 that don't know Jesus,
10:00 the gay neighbors that feel hated by Christians.
10:05 We need to shed tears over that.
10:07 And just as faithful as we are to Scripture,
10:10 we need to be faithful to the other parts of Scripture
10:13 that say reach out and love
10:14 to people that are different than you.
10:16 And I think also part of our maturity in Christ
10:19 is not to make enemies out of people
10:22 that think differently about this issue than we think
10:25 and to be willing and secure enough in God
10:29 to where we're willing to be challenged
10:33 and to think this through again and again and again.
10:36 Yeah, I think that it's important to realize that,
10:39 you know, Jesus hates...
10:42 God hates the sin but not the sinner.
10:46 And so, you know,
10:47 there we have to love the person,
10:51 we may not condone the behavior,
10:52 but we love the person.
10:54 And the fact that God can give you
10:57 the victory over anything that you're struggling
11:00 that goes against His word.
11:02 If it's some kind of sin, transgression of His law,
11:05 then He can help you get the victory over that.
11:09 The very head of the passage that I was reading from
11:11 in Romans 1 starts in verse 18, and it says,
11:14 "The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness
11:18 and unrighteousness of men."
11:20 But it doesn't say the wrath of God
11:21 is revealed against the men.
11:23 It's revealed against their ungodliness
11:26 and unrighteousness.
11:27 God is holy.
11:28 He cannot help but have, can I call it,
11:31 a visceral response,
11:32 an intense response to sin in any form
11:35 because He knows the violation of His design
11:38 will lead to the destruction of the very beings
11:40 for whom He laid down his life.
11:42 Yes.
11:43 So God, by his very nature, can't help but be angry
11:45 against any kind of violation of His design
11:48 which upholds life,
11:49 but it's against the violation of the design
11:52 and not the people that are violating it.
11:55 It's God's grand purpose in the world today
11:57 is to separate sin from sinners
11:59 so that He can ultimately destroy the sin
12:02 and preserve and save the sinners for eternity.
12:06 And we need to find a way to communicate that
12:10 to our gay neighbors,
12:12 to our affirming brothers and sisters in the church,
12:16 people that believe it's okay
12:18 even though we feel kind of at odds with them
12:20 in the way we interpret the scriptures,
12:22 we need to not enter into unnecessary debate
12:26 over it or get nasty, like stay off of Facebook
12:29 when you're talking about stuff like this
12:31 'cause it's only going to go down that rabbit hole,
12:33 if you know what I mean.
12:34 And just maintain our dignity and our Christ-like spirit
12:37 in discussing these things
12:38 'cause it's only going to get hotter.
12:40 This issue is heating up. It is.
12:42 And I mean, you see it being,
12:44 you know, the Bible says train up a child the way he go.
12:47 And when he grows old, he won't depart from you.
12:49 Well, you see people trying to train these children up
12:51 in sexual immorality
12:53 and all kinds of different things.
12:56 The enemy is getting to children
12:57 at younger and younger ages and indoctrinating them
13:02 in, you know,
13:03 things that are not in the Word of God,
13:06 but what do we expect
13:07 from public school for instance?
13:09 They don't have the grounding,
13:11 they don't have the guidance of the Word of God,
13:13 so we really can't expect anything different,
13:15 but what we can expect is that some of those people
13:17 will be hungry for something better.
13:19 Yeah.
13:20 And if we're so busy being their political enemies,
13:22 we won't be able to pick up those cues
13:23 and really minister to them in an effective way
13:26 when they're ready to receive what God has to say to them.
13:29 Yeah, so we need to love, first and foremost, love,
13:33 and that love leads us to speak out
13:34 against things that are genuinely harmful,
13:37 it does.
13:38 But it also leads us to love and have affection for people
13:41 in a very real and in a way that they can sense.
13:45 Yeah. Challenging.
13:47 And it's definitely a delicate topic,
13:49 it's sensitive.
13:50 Do we ever talk about anything but delicate topics?
13:53 I don't think so. No, I don't think we do.
13:56 Dude, I hope you sleep tonight, I don't know if I'm going to...
14:00 Yeah. Well, we shall see.
14:02 Yes, we shall. Yes, absolutely.
14:04 Well, it's been a pleasure once again.
14:06 I can't believe our time is just about up.
14:08 Can you believe it?
14:10 Well, if you want more information,
14:12 please go to and check out the website,
14:16 check out resources,
14:17 and make sure that you join us next time
14:19 on another episode of Intimate Clarity.


Revised 2018-09-27