Participants: John Bradshaw
Series Code: IIW
Program Code: IIW001442A
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00:01 [theme music]
00:22 [drum and trumpet music] 00:31 This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. 00:34 Thanks for joining me. Right about now, Americans are 00:37 preparing to celebrate a national holiday. 00:41 For many people, it's the best time of the year. 00:44 Thanksgiving: family, sometimes travel, always food. 00:50 And a time for us to reflect on just how good God has 00:53 been to us. It's not unusual for people 00:56 around the table at Thanksgiving dinner to recite what they are 01:00 thankful for from the previous year. 01:03 Well, this year--every year, truthfully--I'll be thankful 01:06 for, among other things, the Bible: God's book, 01:09 God's revelation to us of Himself and His love 01:13 for a sinful world. The Bible contains the story 01:16 of the plan of salvation: how Jesus came from Heaven 01:19 to Earth, to die so that we might live. 01:22 That's something to be thankful for. 01:25 When you come to the Bible, you don't have to read too 01:27 far to find great men and women of faith. 01:31 You read about Abraham, or of Samson, 01:34 somebody like Daniel, people who, driven by 01:37 the Spirit of God, did great things for 01:39 the honor of God. Outside the Bible, we find great 01:43 men and women of faith also, and today we're going to 01:47 discuss somebody who had great faith in God: 01:50 such great faith that his otherwise unremarkable life 01:54 became remarkable for the glory of God; 01:57 so much so, that this individual was one of 02:00 the very few to receive a Congressional Medal 02:03 of Honor. His name was Desmond Doss, 02:06 and joining me today to discuss Desmond Doss 02:09 is Pastor Les Spear, who for several years 02:12 was Desmond Doss's church pastor. 02:14 Les, thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. 02:17 It's a pleasure to have you here. 02:19 LS: It's my pleasure to be here. JB: Now, you've been in ministry 02:21 pretty much all your adult life. How long, now? 02:23 LS: Forty-six years. JB: And you were the pastor of a 02:26 church Desmond attended for how many of those years? 02:28 LS: About three and a half. JB: But your association with 02:31 Desmond predates those and postdates those years. 02:34 LS: Correct. JB: So, you knew him for about 02:36 how many years? LS: About 22, 23 years. 02:40 JB: And in those years, you can get to know a 02:42 person pretty well. LS: Yeah. 02:44 We became personal friends. Sometimes your church members, 02:47 you get to know very well. And because of Desmond's 02:52 reputation, because of his wonderful, quiet, 02:56 humble manner, he's the kind of man that everyone 02:59 wishes they had as a father or grandfather. 03:02 And you could sit beside him and ask him questions. 03:05 He wasn't intimidated; he wasn't full of himself; 03:09 he was just as open and transparent as sunlight. 03:14 JB: Now, not that many people are awarded the Congressional 03:17 Medal of Honor. Maybe you can explain what it 03:21 was that Desmond did that saw him receive the Congressional 03:26 Medal of Honor from President Harry Truman. 03:29 LS: First of all, you have to understand that the 03:32 background of his boot camp, Desmond was despised because 03:36 he was a conscientious objector. 03:38 He didn't like that term. He said, "I'm a conscientious 03:42 cooperator." JB: But nevertheless, during his 03:45 time in the military where he served as a combat medic, 03:48 he refused to carry a gun. LS: Yes. 03:50 JB: Leading many of those he served with to hate him. 03:54 LS: Yes. So when it came to warfare, 03:56 however, the ugly duckling turned out to be a beautiful 04:01 person who would go after them--the wounded soldiers-- 04:05 no matter where they were. If they were in the line of 04:08 fire, he would go after them, risking his own life many, 04:11 many, many times, grab them by the collar and 04:14 drag them out. JB: Here's how I understand it: 04:16 Desmond said that during that white-hot, intense battle on the 04:22 Maeda Escarpment in Okinawa, Japan, he brought to safety, 04:27 under the most difficult circumstances imaginable, 04:29 fifty wounded men who otherwise would have 04:33 lost their lives. The military says it was 100, 04:36 at least, soldiers he served with, so they split the 04:39 difference. LS: Yes. 04:41 JB: And said Desmond Doss saved 75 men while under fire, 04:45 literally in the crosshairs of Japanese marksmen. 04:49 LS: Now, let me tell you something I asked Desmond 04:52 about one day. I said, "Desmond, after you 04:54 saved two or three people and you lowered them down 04:57 with a rope about 40 feet to where the other men 05:00 could get them and take them to aid station," 05:03 I said, "did you continue to crawl 05:05 on the ground?" He said, "No." 05:07 He said, "After a while, I understood that God was 05:10 protecting me, so I stood up and carried men on my 05:13 back. I drug them; I didn't try to 05:15 stay on the ground anymore." And he, and the other men, 05:19 who were down there, said that the bullets were 05:21 like bees flying around him, but they didn't touch him. 05:25 So I said, "Desmond, is this story about you?" 05:29 He said, "No. This story is about my God that I serve." 05:33 JB: Describe Desmond Doss as a person--you've done that a 05:36 little bit--something about his background and how he grew up 05:38 as a man of faith. This was a committed Christian. 05:41 LS: He grew up a very poor home. His mother and father worked, 05:46 both of them, part-time, without regular jobs, 05:50 during the Depression. His father was a very bad 05:52 alcoholic, prone to beating the children. 05:55 The mother was a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, 05:59 and the Bible and church was very important. 06:02 Mr. Doss, Thomas Doss, one day at an auction, 06:06 he bought a little picture of the Lord's Prayer and 06:10 of the Ten Commandments for 75 cents, and they 06:14 hung that behind a chair. And interestingly, Desmond liked 06:19 to stand in that chair and watch and look at and understand the 06:24 Ten Commandments with the pictures that were there. 06:27 And his mother said one day, "Desmond, you're going to wear 06:31 that chair out looking at that picture." 06:33 She really didn't mind. But that picture had 06:37 a tremendous influence on not killing anyone: 06:41 the picture of Cain killing Abel, and of the 06:44 seventh-day Sabbath, and those were two big, 06:47 monumental foundations that shaped his 06:51 character. JB: He chose to be a 06:54 conscientious cooperator. As you said, he didn't like the 06:57 term conscientious objector. LS: Yes. 07:00 JB: But he, he volunteered for the military. 07:03 LS: Absolutely. JB: Now, when you volunteer for 07:06 the military, you don't get to dictate the terms under which 07:10 you will serve. LS: That's true today, but it 07:14 was quite a little bit different back then, during World War II. 07:18 Today, if a person volunteers, they go in as a combatant. 07:25 They must carry arms, unless it's convenient for them to 07:28 not to do so. Then, there was a law that 07:32 allowed them to not carry a gun, which he refused to do, 07:37 and still be on the battlefield, still be saving life instead 07:44 of taking it. He didn't, he said, 07:46 "I'm willing to salute my flag. I'm willing to go in uniform. 07:49 I believe in my country. I'm very patriotic." 07:52 And he was one of the most patriotic people I've ever 07:54 seen or met. But he would not kill; 07:59 he would not take life. JB: A man who would not take 08:01 life, who would not carry a weapon, but was awarded the 08:05 Congressional Medal of Honor: a remarkable man, a servant 08:09 of his country, and a man of faith. 08:11 More of the Desmond Doss story in just a moment. 08:15 [Music] When you read the Bible, 08:21 you read about many great heroes of the Bible: 08:24 people otherwise ordinary who, moved by the Spirit 08:27 of God, did great things for the glory of God. 08:31 Outside of the Bible, we meet heroes as well, 08:34 and Desmond Doss, though he would never 08:36 refer to himself as such, was undoubtedly a 08:40 modern-day hero. A Congressional Medal of Honor 08:43 recipient who went into battle with nothing more than a medical 08:47 kit, a prayer on his lips, and a very small Bible 08:51 just like this one. This was Desmond Doss's 08:55 strength. I would like to share with you a 08:58 little book called, "The Faith of Desmond Doss," 09:02 which will share with you what it was that made Desmond Doss 09:05 a great man of faith, and how you, too, can have that 09:09 kind of faith in God. To receive "The Faith of Desmond 09:13 Doss," please call, right now, 1 (800) 253-3000. 09:18 That's 1 (800) 253-3000. If, when you call, the line is 09:23 busy, please do call again. You can call 24 hours a day. 09:28 If you'd like to write, please write to: 09:30 It Is Written, P.O. Box 6, Chattanooga, Tennessee, 09:33 37401, and we will send you a free copy, 09:37 if your address is within North America. 09:40 Or go to our website for a free download, www.ItIsWritten.com. 09:48 Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. 09:49 I'm John Bradshaw. My guest today is 09:52 Pastor Les Spear, who for several years was 09:54 the pastor of Congressional Medal of Honor recipient 09:57 Desmond Doss, and for many years was his close and 10:01 trusted friend. Desmond Doss is the central 10:04 figure in the movie "Hacksaw Ridge," 10:07 which focuses on one of the most intense military 10:09 engagements in this country's history. 10:13 Les, since the end of the Civil War, less than 2,000 10:17 individuals have received the Medal of Honor. 10:20 In order to receive that award, you have had to have done 10:25 something outstanding. And typically, in order to do 10:28 something outstanding, you had to be someone outstanding. 10:32 Now, what sort of person was Desmond Doss, the man? 10:35 LS: Some people will be acquainted with the Myers- 10:38 Briggs Personality Profile. Desmond was an INFJ, and if you 10:46 Google that, it comes out that it's Mr. Integrity. 10:52 He would not violate his conscience. 10:54 I don't know of a single incident where he violated 10:57 his conscience in his whole lifetime. 11:00 He was so rigid to do what he felt was right, regardless 11:04 of the consequences. JB: Which led him, 11:06 while in the military, to make the decision 11:08 that he wouldn't carry a gun. 11:10 He would be a conscientious cooperator. 11:12 You mentioned before that he was despised for that, at least 11:15 for a while. That turned around. 11:17 What kind of pressure did he experience in the military 11:20 for his decision? LS: He was beat up. 11:23 He would, was not allowed to have passes home, even to 11:27 get married, earlier. The men would make fun of him. 11:31 They would ridicule him. They despised him, because he 11:35 wouldn't be like them and carry a gun and kill the enemy. 11:39 JB: As a spiritual man, you observed him up close. 11:42 What was his spiritual experience like? 11:44 LS: He was a person who was not full of himself. 11:47 He was very humble, very kind, very patient. 11:51 He was willing to listen. Another soldier met him, 11:56 and the soldier said, "Desmond treated me like 12:01 I was the recipient of the Medal of Honor." 12:05 And he said, "When Desmond goes to the Medal of Honor convention 12:09 every other year, the other recipients line up to see him." 12:14 Now, isn't that amazing? So it's not a story necessarily 12:18 about Desmond. It's a story about the 12:20 miracle-working power of Desmond's God. 12:24 JB: Up on Hacksaw Ridge, or more appropriately referred to, 12:27 up on the Maeda Escarpment at Okinawa, he was literally 12:31 in the crosshairs of Japanese weapons and 12:35 guns. Bullets were flying past him, 12:37 yet he distinguished himself with immense bravery and 12:42 absolute heroism, leading him to receive the 12:45 Congressional Medal of Honor. 12:47 Now, you have that medal here today. 12:49 Might we see that? LS: Yes. 12:51 This is the Congressional Medal of Honor. 12:53 There are very few people who wear this, believe me. 12:55 I think there's only about 150 who are still alive at this 12:59 time. JB: In addition to the 13:01 Congressional Medal of Honor, he was awarded with 13:03 other awards. What were they? 13:05 LS: He received two Bronze Stars, the Oak Leaf Cluster 13:09 for valor. He received three Purple Hearts, 13:13 and was wounded most severely the last time, after the 13:17 Maeda Escarpment. The Japanese had built 13:20 tunnels in this mountain, and they had pillboxes, 13:25 they had machine gun nests set up, designed 13:28 not to be on the offensive but on the defensive. 13:32 So, my history books say that between 2,200 and 2,300 13:38 American lives were trying to take this mountain 13:41 range. It wasn't so big--about 400 feet 13:44 high--but they had designed it so that when they got there, 13:48 many soldiers would die. At one place, there was a 13:52 little creek. Human blood was almost 13:55 knee deep. So, here you have Desmond going 13:59 up there, on the second famous day, and as he goes up there, 14:05 the Japanese are shooting at him, and he is going and 14:12 rescuing men. But instead of crawling on the 14:15 ground, after realizing that God is protecting him, 14:19 he doesn't worry about the bullets at all. 14:21 And he just goes and gets people and puts them on his back. 14:24 He sometimes will help them walk, if they are capable 14:27 of walking at all, carries them to the side and 14:30 lowers them over, 40 feet down where the other men 14:33 can get them and take them to military aid. 14:35 Just trusting in the Lord. And I asked him, 14:38 "What were you thinking?" He said, "I was praying, 14:41 'God help me get one more before I die.' 14:45 'Help me get one more.' 'Help me get one more.'" 14:48 JB: Big, strong man, was he? LS: No. 14:50 He was probably 130 pounds, at this time. 14:53 JB: A hundred and thirty pounds, yet he singlehandedly rescued 14:57 and then lowered to safety at least 75 men, while bullets 15:03 were flying past. LS: One of the other men in the 15:06 unit said that the bullets up there were like a bunch of 15:09 bees flying around him. JB: What sort of long-term 15:13 effects did Desmond Doss suffer after having served in the 15:16 military? LS: Something that we have in 15:19 our vocabulary today is Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome. 15:24 Desmond suffered that for probably 10 or 12 years. 15:28 He called it "the demons." He would think of people that 15:33 were, he considered them his men, and he would see them die. 15:36 He would try to save them, and they would die or be blown up. 15:42 JB: This was going on in his mind? 15:43 LS: Yes. And so, for years this, all this 15:46 trauma is going on in his mind. Today, we deal with 15:49 psychologists and psychiatrists and so forth, to help our 15:53 soldiers in these situations. Desmond had none of that. 15:57 Plus, after he got well from the injuries of his body and his 16:01 left leg that was blown up with a hand grenade, he has TB 16:07 for five and a half years, and he couldn't even be 16:11 with his wife but for a few minutes a day. 16:14 And he couldn't be with his son for fear that his son would get 16:18 TB. This was a terrible 16:20 psychological imprisonment, almost, during his life for 16:26 years, probably 10 to 12 years he suffered these emotional 16:31 problems. JB: And then there was his 16:33 hearing. LS: Yes. 16:35 When they treated him for his problems physically-- 16:41 antibiotics were new, in World War II-- 16:44 the doctors didn't know how much to give. 16:46 And so they gave him way too much, and he would have ringing 16:50 in his ears for years. And finally, sometime after 16:54 World War II, he became totally deaf for 12 years, until they 17:00 have a new miracle surgery called 'cochlear implant.' 17:05 After he got the cochlear implant, it was possible 17:07 to communicate with him. He said, "But everybody talks 17:10 like Donald Duck." Ha ha ha. 17:12 I found that if I lowered my voice, I could speak slowly, 17:17 and if I faced him, he could read my lips and we could 17:20 carry on a good conversation. 17:23 JB: Did you ever know him to consider or to suggest that the 17:26 price he paid for serving his country was too high? 17:30 LS: Never. He said, "I received the 17:32 Congressional in honor of the men who died, because they 17:36 gave a much greater sacrifice than mine." 17:39 JB: Quite a remarkable man, and now the subject of a 17:43 major motion picture entitled "Hacksaw Ridge." 17:46 There's already been documentaries, books, 17:48 and many other productions in honor or in respect of 17:54 a man who gave so much for the country that he loved, 17:59 motivated always by honor for God. 18:04 We'll be back with more in just a moment. 18:07 [Music] "Every Word" is a one-minute, 18:09 Bible-based daily devotional presented by 18:11 Pastor John Bradshaw, and designed especially for 18:14 busy people like you. Look for "Every Word" on 18:17 selected networks or watch it online every day on our 18:20 website, ItIsWritten.com. 18:24 [upbeat piano music] Paul and Silas were doing 18:32 God's business in Philippi. They were hounded for days 18:35 by a demon-possessed woman, so they do the right thing, 18:39 the God thing, and they cast the demon out of her. 18:42 But as a result, they ended up in prison, their backs having 18:44 been brutally opened up by a Roman whip and their feet put 18:47 fast in stocks. And yet the testimony 18:50 of God's Word is that in their darkest hour, 18:53 their faith in God was strong. 18:55 Acts 16:25 says, "And at midnight, Paul and Silas 18:59 prayed and sang praises unto God, and the prisoners 19:02 heard them." Instead of complaining that 19:04 God had abandoned them, they prayed and sang. 19:07 The other prisoners were touched, God worked miracles, 19:09 and the jailkeeper was saved. When you're in a tough 19:12 situation, instead of complaining, pray 19:15 and praise God. That's when miracles happen. 19:18 I'm John Bradshaw for It Is Written. 19:20 Let's live today by every word. 19:25 Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. 19:27 Today, we're discussing Desmond Doss, 19:29 Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, whose experience 19:32 is portrayed in the movie "Hacksaw Ridge." 19:37 Pastor Les Spear, his pastor for several years, 19:39 his friend for many years, we spoke a few moments ago 19:42 about how Desmond Doss was hated, absolutely despised, 19:46 because he chose to be a noncombatant. 19:49 He said he was a conscientious cooperator, 19:52 but, in spite of that decision, later on was 19:55 awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. 19:57 So, something happened to turn around in the minds of many 20:00 people this concept of a man who was perhaps a coward, 20:04 couldn't be relied on, to, in the minds of his own 20:07 peers, he really became a hero, in their minds. 20:10 Explain that transition that took place. 20:13 LS: In basic training, one of the men said, 20:16 "In battle, I will kill you." 20:18 When it came to the battle time, later, that particular man who 20:22 had threatened him in basic training was running the other 20:26 way, away from the enemy, when Desmond was going 20:29 into battle to save his men. 20:32 And Desmond was not afraid to risk his life again and 20:36 again and again, where, if anyone was wounded 20:39 and they cried for a medic, he was on his way, 20:42 in spite of the harm and the foolishness. 20:46 One time, the commander said, "Desmond, wait a little while." 20:49 And Desmond said, "He may not be alive in a little while," 20:54 and he crawled on out to get that man and drag him 20:57 back. JB: Earlier, there was a 20:59 complete lack of respect for Desmond and his faith. 21:03 Later on, there was an immense amount of respect for his 21:07 faith in God. Describe that for me. 21:10 LS: When they tried to get up the Maeda Escarpment-- 21:13 Hacksaw Ridge, as it's called by the men-- 21:17 they were, climbed that ladder seven times, and 21:21 they were kicked off seven times. 21:24 One of the times, Desmond said to the commander, 21:27 "Sir, shouldn't we have prayer before we go up?" 21:30 His intent was that every man should pray, 21:33 "Forgive me of my sins," and make peace with God. 21:36 So the commander called the men together and says, 21:40 "Desmond wants to pray for us." Well, that wasn't Desmond's 21:43 thought, but that's what he did, and he prayed 21:45 a very simple prayer. "Lord, give our commander 21:48 good instructions. Help us to follow safety 21:51 procedures, that we will all be able to return 21:54 safely and alive." That day, everyone in their unit 22:01 came back alive. Not a single one. 22:04 JB: A very rare occurrence. LS: When the other group that 22:07 was beside them were just mowed down. 22:10 They were on a neighboring part of the escarpment. 22:13 They were slaughtered, almost. JB: A remarkable story. 22:16 LS: Absolutely. JB: What sort of legacy do you 22:18 think he left behind? LS: I happen to be the, 22:21 not only a personal friend of his but also his 22:23 trust officer. Desmond understood the principal 22:26 from Scripture that we are just stewards. 22:29 We're not owners of anything. And so Desmond wanted everything 22:33 that he had, except for a few personal items, to build up 22:37 God's kingdom. And so he left not only his 22:40 money, but also his time, his commitment. 22:44 He was eager to do everything he could to build up the work of 22:49 Jesus Christ. JB: I understand he invested 22:51 with his own time and energy in young people. 22:55 LS: Absolutely. JB: Tell me a little bit about 22:57 his work with young people. LS: Well, he loved to go to 22:59 high school, to private schools, to churches, synagogues, 23:04 wherever he could find people, but especially he wanted 23:07 to spend time with young people. 23:09 And he would tell them that if they would trust in God, God 23:12 would direct their paths. And Desmond said, 23:16 "That's true with me, and it'll be true with you, 23:19 if you commit your life to Jesus Christ." 23:21 JB: How did young people respond to this fellow? 23:23 Let's keep in mind, he was a frail, older, deaf man. 23:26 LS: Yes. JB: And, and he could interact 23:28 with high school kids? LS: Oh, it was amazing. 23:31 One time, there was a group of perhaps 225 people, and almost 23:36 all of them were young people. They sat there, almost 23:39 mesmerized. They were just awestruck. 23:44 I was amazed. These were 10-, 12-, 13-, 23:47 14-year-olds, and they were just (ah), with their mouths hanging 23:51 open, listening to the story of God's protection and providence 23:57 for him. JB: It really is a 23:59 remarkable story. It's a story of, of protection, 24:02 as you say, providence, and faith and trust in God. 24:07 Now, Desmond Doss today rests in a cemetery not very far from 24:12 where we are sitting right now, and he's a man who was 24:15 a significant part of your life. 24:17 Just briefly, what kind of impact did Desmond Doss, 24:21 the man, have on you? LS: In any church, there are 24:25 stresses, sometimes squabblings, sometimes jealousies, and 24:32 Desmond was a person who frequently had his picture 24:35 in the newspaper, in the parades around town, 24:39 and there were some problems in the church 24:44 and in the social structure of the community. 24:47 And Desmond struggled with that, but he was not going to let that 24:52 influence him not to go to church, not to be faithful, 24:56 not--he was always determined, "No matter what others do, I 25:01 will be faithful to God." JB: And it's that faith that's 25:04 so beautifully portrayed in the film "Hacksaw Ridge," 25:08 in the documentary "The Conscientious Objector," 25:10 in books and so much that's been written and produced 25:14 about this man. Pastor Les Spear, thanks for 25:17 joining me today. LS: It's been my pleasure. 25:18 Thank you. JB: Well, let's pray together 25:20 before we go. Let's pray. 25:22 [Music] Our Father in heaven, we are thankful for the way 25:24 You've placed Your hand on lives, which then reveal to 25:29 so many Your goodness, Your glory, 25:32 Your providence and Your power. 25:34 As we consider the life and the legacy of Desmond Doss, 25:38 we are mindful that Your impact on a life can make 25:42 any life profound, any life influential, 25:47 any life tell for your glory. As we come to You with our 25:50 struggles and weaknesses, I pray that Your touch, 25:53 Your blessing would see Your will done, and though 25:57 the great majority of us will never be known like 26:01 Desmond Doss was known, I pray that in our sphere, 26:03 our lives would give evidence that we have been touched and 26:06 blessed by the God of Heaven. 26:09 Thank You, that You are the God of great things. 26:11 In Jesus' name, we pray. Amen. 26:14 [Music] 26:30 JB: I would like to share with you a little book called 26:33 "The Faith of Desmond Doss," which will share with you 26:36 what it was that made Desmond Doss a great man 26:39 of faith, and how you too, can have that kind of faith 26:44 in God. To receive "The Faith of Desmond 26:47 Doss," please call, right now, 1 (800) 253-3000. 26:52 If, when you call, the line is busy, please do call again. 26:56 You can call 24 hours a day. If you'd like to write, 27:00 please write to: It Is Written, P.O. Box 6, 27:03 Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37401, and we will send you a free copy 27:08 if your address is within North America. 27:11 Or go to our website for a free download, 27:13 www.ItIsWritten.com. And please remember that 27:18 It Is Written is a faith-based ministry. 27:21 We are enabled to share the gospel of Jesus Christ globally 27:25 because of the support of people just like you. 27:27 To support It Is Written, please do call (800) 253-3000, 27:32 or you can write to the address on your screen, or visit us at 27:36 ItIsWritten.com. Again, to receive 27:40 "The Faith of Desmond Doss," 1 (800) 253-3000. 27:48 Thank you so much for joining me today. 27:50 I look forward to seeing you again next time. 27:52 Until then remember, it is written: 27:55 Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word 27:59 that proceeds from the mouth of God. 28:03 [Music] |
Revised 2016-11-19