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Series Code: IIWSS
Program Code: IIWSS022139S
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00:14 >>Welcome to "Sabbath School," 00:16 bought to you by It Is Written. 00:18 We're delighted to have you with us once again 00:20 as we continue our journey through this quarter's lessons. 00:24 We are looking at "Death, Dying, and the Future Hope," 00:28 and this week we're on lesson number 9. 00:31 We've laid a pretty firm foundation. 00:34 We've got a pretty solid picture, I think, 00:36 through the last eight lessons 00:38 of what happens when a person dies 00:39 and what the future hope looks like. 00:43 But, what about those problem passages? 00:49 Well, we're delighted to have the author 00:50 of this quarter Sabbath school lesson with us, 00:53 Dr. Alberto Timm, who is an associate director 00:56 of the Ellen G. White Estate, and he is here 00:59 to help us work our way through some of those problem texts. 01:03 Alberto, welcome back. 01:05 >>It's a joy for me to join you. 01:09 >>So let's look at these. 01:10 We've got a lot of 'em to look at this week, 01:11 and we're probably not gonna be able to 01:14 look in great detail at each and every one of them, 01:18 but we are going to at least, 01:22 at least crack them all. 01:24 Now, if you wanna dig more deeply into these, 01:27 if you're still trying to figure out 01:29 and pull some pieces together 01:30 and you've got this question, "Well, what about...?" 01:32 I wanna encourage you: Make sure you pick up 01:34 the companion book to this quarter's lesson. 01:37 It is available at itiswritten.shop. 01:40 If you've read the study guide already, 01:42 if you're watching the program, you've got some of it, 01:45 but pick this up, and it will go into greater detail 01:47 on how to answer these questions. 01:50 It is called "On Death, Dying and the Future Hope." 01:52 The author, of course, is Dr. Alberto Timm, 01:55 itiswritten.shop. 01:57 But, let's dive into these and unpack as much as we can. 02:00 The first one is found in Luke, chapter 16. 02:04 Luke, chapter 16, and in verse 19 02:08 this problem passage begins with these words: 02:11 "There was a certain rich man 02:14 "who was clothed in purple and fine linen 02:16 and fared sumptuously every day." 02:20 And this story continues down through verse number 31. 02:23 Alberto, why is the story of the rich man and Lazarus 02:26 a so-called problem text, 02:29 and how do we make it less problematic? 02:33 >>The text is considered or used by many people 02:37 to prove the afterlife, 02:41 or when somebody dies, does not die, 02:44 the soul continues to live. 02:46 And in this case you have the dialogue between 02:51 a rich man and Lazarus. 02:54 And then in the so-called afterlife, 02:57 they are dialoguing or they are in a conversation there. 03:01 And finally, they come with some kind of-- 03:06 the rich man was regretting and asking even 03:11 some mercy from Lazarus. 03:14 So, things really reversed. 03:17 It seems that the rich man that was enjoying life 03:20 very much in this life then was suffering. 03:24 And Lazarus, who was suffering in this life, later on 03:28 was rejoicing in paradise, supposedly. 03:34 But this passage has several implications 03:37 that we cannot really consider it as a literal statement. 03:43 It is just allegory or has a symbolic meaning, 03:48 or, you know, as we say, a parable. 03:51 And I quote in the book 03:53 in a few theologians 03:57 that really show why this cannot be considered 04:03 as a literal text. 04:04 But basically, in a few words, 04:06 if this was really a portrait of the afterlife, 04:11 and one went to heaven or paradise, 04:15 to "the bosom of Abraham," and the other one went to hell, 04:19 or if even, if you want to call it purgatory, 04:22 whatever you want, the thing is 04:25 in that communication between them, 04:27 there was just a valley or a hole 04:30 where one could not go from one place to the other one, 04:33 but was clear enough, without any cell phone or whatsoever, 04:38 they could speak to each other. 04:42 So, I guess that in such a case, let's suppose that 04:48 a mother would be saved, 04:51 and the son would be lost. They would not rejoice, I mean, 04:55 the mother seeing the suffering of his son. 04:59 So it would be too close to each other. 05:02 And in addition, there is reference in the case of Abraham-- 05:07 I mean the rich man--of having eyes, 05:10 fingers, and tongue, and so on and so forth. 05:16 In this case, the soul, 05:19 if this would be a literal portrait of the afterlife, 05:25 then the soul would need to have a physical body. 05:28 And having a physical body able to suffer, 05:33 as described in this text, then it would be, 05:37 I mean, the resurrection would have no sense, 05:41 make no sense at all, because there was already a body 05:45 for the soul in the afterlife. 05:48 So, in this case, there are several evidences 05:52 that really this cannot be used 05:54 because the implications of taking it 05:57 as a literal description would be far worse 06:01 than just to leave it aside and saying this is what, 06:06 this is just a parable that Jesus used. 06:10 And there are evidences, I think, that we have 06:13 enough that they were some kind of teachings, 06:16 a parable used at that time that Jesus just picked up 06:21 to teach that whatever decision 06:25 we make in this life has eternal consequences, 06:30 and our destiny is decided here 06:34 during this life, and there is no chance of reversing it 06:38 in the so-called afterlife. 06:41 >>It's a very important lesson for us to learn, 06:44 for all of us to learn, to understand. 06:46 I like the last few verses of this chapter 06:50 that really--where Jesus ties it all together, 06:53 just exactly what you're talking about. 06:55 In verse number 27, he says, 06:58 "I beg you therefore"--speaking to Abraham--"father, 07:00 "that you would send him to my father's house, 07:02 "for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, 07:05 lest they also come to this place of torment." 07:08 And "Abraham said to him, 07:10 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'" 07:13 Now look at verses 30 and 31: 07:16 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; 07:18 "but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 07:22 "But he said to him, 07:24 "'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, 07:26 "'neither will they be persuaded 07:28 though one rose from the dead.'" 07:30 So here Jesus makes it very plain. 07:32 He says even if someone rose from the dead 07:36 and went back and told them, they still wouldn't believe, 07:38 because they don't believe Moses and the prophets. 07:40 Or in other words, they don't believe the Bible. 07:42 And if they're not going to believe 07:43 the clear teachings of the Bible, 07:44 somebody going back and telling them from the dead 07:47 isn't going to change their mind as well. 07:49 And it's interesting with these Jewish leaders; 07:53 they didn't believe Jesus, 07:54 they didn't believe that He was the Messiah, 07:56 and even when someone came back from the dead, 07:59 who not coincidentally was named Lazarus, 08:03 even when he came back, they still didn't believe. 08:06 So, just an incredible picture here 08:09 of not what literally happens when a person dies, 08:12 but a powerful lesson for us to learn. 08:14 There's another problem text here. 08:17 Oh, go right ahead. >>Eric? 08:18 >>Yes, please. >>Yeah... 08:19 I think that you brought up 08:21 these passages that are very significant. 08:23 In this case it calls the attention 08:26 to Moses and the prophets. 08:30 I think that the same thing applies 08:32 to the state of the dead. Why should we not go 08:34 to Moses and the prophets 08:39 and to learn from them what they have to say 08:41 about the human nature and the state of the dead? 08:45 And even these very same passages 08:48 confirms that a condition 08:50 for somebody to come back to life is resurrection. 08:56 This is the very last sentence of the passage. 08:59 >>Absolutely. Well put, well put. 09:02 Let's take a look at the second problem text, 09:05 and this one is found over in Luke, chapter 23, 09:08 Luke, chapter 23 and verse number 43. 09:11 Let me see if I can pull this one up real quick. 09:13 Luke, chapter 23, verse number 43, 09:17 this is one that's caused some challenges for some people, 09:20 but I think it doesn't need to. In Luke 23, verse number 43, 09:25 it's talking about Jesus' crucifixion, 09:29 and He's in His last moments, as it were. 09:34 He's speaking to the repentant thief. 09:36 He's got two thieves, one on His left and one on His right, 09:39 the repentant thief. 09:40 "And Jesus [says] to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, 09:45 today you will be with me in Paradise.'" 09:48 Now, it really does sound like Jesus is telling that thief 09:51 that he's gonna be with Him in paradise, in heaven that day. 09:55 But that's not really what it says, 09:57 even though it might look like that on the surface. 10:00 Help us through that, Alberto. 10:02 >>First of all, we have to remember 10:05 that the original Greek text 10:08 did not have commas, or punctuation, so to say; 10:13 they were added later on. 10:15 In this case, the question, really, the crucial question is 10:20 if the comma should go 10:23 after the word "today"-- 10:26 "semeron" in Greek--or before. 10:29 And it changes significantly the meaning. It could say, 10:34 "I"--"Truly I say to you today, 10:38 you will be with me in Paradise," 10:41 or "I"--"Truly I say to you, 10:45 today you will be with me in Paradise." 10:50 Well, from the text itself, 10:53 it's very difficult to decide which way to go 10:57 because the text is not clear in itself. 11:00 But I think that we have other evidences 11:04 where to place the comma, and especially from-- 11:10 I have--there is a Anglican biblical scholar, 11:13 E. W. Bullinger, and he says 11:16 that this pattern of putting the word-- 11:20 I mean "today"--is a matter of emphasis, 11:25 very common for the Hebrew mentality. 11:31 In other words, it's a Hebrew idiom, so to say. 11:34 And in the book of Deuteronomy, 11:37 and I am not providing the passages here, 11:39 you'll find it in the book, 11:41 but you will have several instances 11:46 where the text actually says, 11:49 "And I say unto thee this day." 11:55 So, the idea of putting "this day" 11:57 is a matter of emphasis. 12:00 And going back to the passage of John-- 12:06 a friend even stated this; 12:09 his name is Wilson Paroschi; he mentions death 12:14 in all the cases that you have in the book, 12:19 or better, say, in the writings of... 12:24 of Luke, not only his gospel, 12:28 but also the Acts of the Apostles, 12:31 in the vast majority of those passages, 12:34 it always comes connected with the verb 12:38 that precedes the word "semeron," 12:41 or "today," and not the one that comes after. 12:44 You have a few instances that it goes after, 12:47 but the tendency, the style of John, 12:50 is to connect earlier with the verb. 12:52 So, we understand that this passage is based--really, 12:57 it should read, "I say to you today, 13:01 you will be with me in Paradise." 13:03 And this interpretation is confirmed by the fact 13:06 that later on when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, 13:12 He even stated--and this you'll find 13:14 in Matthew 20:64-- 13:19 saying that "I have not yet gone to my Father." 13:24 >>Absolutely. I was just thinking of over in John 13:26 it's exactly the same thing. In John 20, verse 17, 13:29 Jesus says to her, "Do not cling to me, 13:32 "for I have not yet ascended to my Father, 13:35 "but go to my brethren and say to them, 13:38 "'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, 13:40 and to my God and your God.'" 13:41 >>You are right. That's the right passage. 13:43 I was referring to another one, sorry. 13:46 >>It's a good passage too. They're all good passages. 13:49 But one thing that encourages me 13:51 in looking at that passage in John, chapter 20, 13:54 where Jesus says, "I haven't yet ascended"-- 13:57 if Jesus told the thief on the cross, 13:59 "Today you will be with me in paradise," 14:02 we accept that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, 14:06 He rose on Sunday, and on Sunday He tells Mary, 14:10 "I haven't gone to paradise yet. 14:12 I haven't gone to heaven yet." 14:14 If that's true, then Jesus is either 14:17 lying to the thief on Friday, 14:19 or He is lying to Mary on Sunday, one of the two. 14:26 And we have to decide who Jesus is lying to. 14:27 Now, I don't know if that makes you uncomfortable or not, 14:30 but it does make me uncomfortable 14:34 because as far as I know, Jesus doesn't lie. 14:37 And the truth is He doesn't. 14:38 If we get that comma in the right place, 14:40 Jesus says to the thief on the cross, 14:42 "I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." 14:46 There Jesus is telling the truth to the thief on Friday, 14:48 He's telling the truth to Mary on Sunday, 14:50 and He's in complete agreement 14:52 with all the other verses in the Bible on the subject. 14:56 Don't base your faith on a comma, friends. 14:58 If you wanna dig into this more deeply, 15:00 make sure that you do pick up the companion book 15:02 to this quarter's study. 15:04 It is "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope." 15:07 Again, that is by Dr. Alberto Timm, our guest today. 15:10 You can pick it up at itiswritten.shop. 15:14 We're going to be back in just a moment 15:15 as we continue our journey through these problem texts. 15:20 We'll make it easy. We'll be right back. 15:21 (inspirational theme music swells and ends) 15:26 (upbeat music) 15:28 >>[Announcer] Planning for your financial future 15:30 is a vital aspect of Christian stewardship. 15:34 For this reason, It Is Written is pleased to offer 15:36 free planned giving and estate services. 15:39 For information on how we can help you, 15:41 please call 800-992-2219. 15:46 Call today or visit our website: HisLegacy.com. 15:50 Call 800-992-2219. 15:56 >>[John Bradshaw] More and more people are watching 15:58 It Is Written TV. 16:00 They're watching their favorite It Is Written programs, 16:04 listening to inspiring sermon series, and much more. 16:08 They're watching them here, here, and even here. 16:12 See for yourself why people are turning to 16:14 It Is Written TV to watch their favorite Christian programs 16:18 live and on demand. 16:20 Watch It Is Written TV for free anytime 16:22 on Roku, Apple TV, and at itiswritten.tv. 16:27 (inspirational theme music) 16:32 >>[Eric] Welcome back to "Sabbath School," 16:33 brought to you by It Is Written. 16:35 We are continuing to look through these problem passages, 16:38 these contrary texts, 16:40 to see if we can find answers for them. 16:42 The beauty of the Bible is it's not going to teach 16:45 two different things on one subject 16:47 because God doesn't teach 16:49 two different things on one subject. 16:50 So, if we're looking at what the Bible teaches 16:52 about what happens when you die and the future hope, 16:55 we can know that it's going to be in agreement 16:57 from Genesis to Revelation. 16:59 So our next text that we're going to look at 17:00 is Philippians, chapter 1 and verse number 23. 17:04 And here in verse 23, Paul says, 17:07 "For I am hard-pressed between the two, 17:09 "having a desire to depart and be with Christ, 17:14 which is far better." 17:16 Alberto, help us to understand 17:18 what Paul meant when he said that, 17:20 'cause it sounds like he's saying when he dies, 17:23 he's going to immediately be with Jesus. 17:26 >>We have to take into consideration the context. 17:29 Actually, Paul was suffering a lot, 17:33 and not only from the Jews 17:37 that did not accept him very well, but even some Christians. 17:41 So his life was quite a cross, so to say. 17:45 His cross was very heavy to be carried. 17:49 And it came to a point when he actually said, 17:52 "Well, I think that the better for me is to rest, 17:57 to depart and be with Christ." 18:00 Some people believe that this was a reference 18:05 that he would be immediately with the Lord. 18:08 But I don't think that this is 18:10 the best interpretation of the passage 18:13 because we have other evidences. 18:16 First of all, in his early writings, 18:19 he spoke of the resurrection as the only hope 18:23 for dead people to be with the Lord consciously. 18:28 He spoke about the dead being 18:32 unconsciously waiting for the resurrection to take place, 18:38 and that you have, for instance, in 1 Thessalonians. 18:42 But some authors argue that in, 18:48 meanwhile, in the time later on, 18:51 he changed his mind 18:54 and started to believe that the person, 18:57 when the person dies, immediately goes to heaven. 19:01 But this is not the case because in his final, 19:05 his last epistle, 19:07 2 Timothy, chapter 4, verse 8, 19:11 he actually speaks about 19:14 the crown of righteousness 19:17 that he will receive, or his reward he will receive, 19:21 only at the Second Coming and not immediately after he dies. 19:27 So in this case, we would understand this passage. 19:29 And there are other evidences that you can read later on, 19:33 that it simply meant, 19:36 as he stated elsewhere, 19:39 that not life nor death can separate us for Christ. 19:44 Because even in grave, the treasury 19:48 of his salvation would be assured; 19:51 he had assurance of salvation 19:54 and the reward he would receive 19:57 at the second coming of Christ. 19:59 >>And Paul was constantly looking forward to that. 20:03 He hoped that he would be able to live 20:05 and see Christ come in the clouds. 20:07 He didn't. But he can one day look forward 20:10 to receiving that crown of righteousness 20:11 that he describes there in his valedictory, 20:14 a beautiful passage. Let's take a look at another one here. 20:17 This one can be a...a difficult one 20:22 for some people to look at, but it becomes very easy 20:26 once you unpack it just a little bit. 20:28 We're looking at 1 Peter, chapter 3, verses 18-20. 20:33 And I'm gonna read these 20:34 because it's important to take a look 20:35 at some of the tenses that are described here. 20:39 They'll help us out a little bit. 20:40 First Peter 3, verses 18-20, 20:43 Peter writes, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, 20:47 "the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, 20:51 "being put to death in the flesh 20:54 "but made alive by the Spirit, 20:56 "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 21:00 "who formerly were disobedient, 21:03 "when once the Divine longsuffering waited 21:06 "in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, 21:10 "in which a few, that is, 21:12 eight souls, were saved [by] water." 21:16 So, what, who are these "spirits in prison"? 21:19 When did they live? What's their significance? 21:22 Help us out with that, Alberto. 21:24 >>Well, some people who believe in 21:26 the natural immortality of the soul 21:29 would say that actually those were the spirits 21:33 of the antediluvians who really remained, 21:39 whether in hell or in, probably in purgatory, 21:43 waiting for whatever would take place. 21:47 And then Jesus went there and really preached to them, 21:52 like, a message of judgment. 21:55 But now we face a contradiction, 21:58 those who use the passage of Luke that says, 22:02 "You will be with me in Paradise," 22:05 and now you have this one. 22:07 Actually, when Jesus died, did He go to paradise 22:10 or really went to hell? Or both of them? 22:15 We have plenty of evidences that Jesus remained in the tomb, 22:18 who did not go in any of those places. 22:21 So the meaning of this passage is really 22:24 that Christ, through the work of the Holy Spirit, 22:29 preached to the rebellious generation 22:33 prior to the Flood. That was the case. 22:36 And they were not literally in prison; 22:41 they were in the prison of sin. 22:44 That's the meaning of this passage. 22:46 And I quote a few others here; 22:48 then you can unpack it a little bit more. 22:52 >>Excellent, so this is not Jesus going down into purgatory 22:56 or hell to preach to people to get them to repent. 22:59 But as it says, when the Spirit was working 23:02 back in the days of Noah, Christ was speaking to them, 23:05 trying to encourage them outta the prison house of sin 23:09 and to, well, really, to make good decisions. 23:12 >>Yeah, and using Noah as the preacher of righteousness. 23:16 He was the human instrument 23:18 of the Holy Spirit in those days. 23:21 >>Very good. Excellent. 23:23 All right, we've got one more. 23:24 And this one can be a challenge (chuckling) to some people. 23:27 Again, it doesn't have to be, 23:28 and we're gonna try to make it simple, 23:31 but we're over in Revelation, chapter 6 now, 23:33 looking at verses 9 through, oh, we'll say, verse 11. 23:37 Verse 9 says, and "when He"--Jesus--"opened the fifth seal, 23:43 "I saw under the altar the souls of those 23:45 "who had been slain for the word of God 23:47 "and for the testimony which they held. 23:49 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 23:51 "'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge 23:55 "and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' 23:59 "Then a white robe was given to each of them; 24:02 "and it was said to them that they should rest 24:04 "a little while longer, 24:05 "until both the number of their fellow servants 24:08 "and their brethren, who would be killed 24:10 as they were, was [accomplished]." 24:12 So there are a few problems here, I think, 24:15 and I'm gonna let you solve them for us, 24:17 but, it sounds like we've got some righteous people. 24:22 They've been slain for the word of God, 24:24 but they're in misery. 24:26 So one would think that if they were in heaven, 24:28 they would be rejoicing. 24:30 And not only are they apparently in misery, 24:32 but they're calling for vengeance. 24:35 Now, usually when we think of the righteous, 24:37 they're not the ones who are calling out for vengeance; 24:40 they have more of a forgiving character. 24:42 So help us to understand what's going on here. 24:45 >>Actually, this passage is a symbolic passage, 24:49 apocalyptic language, definitely so, that employs symbols. 24:53 And here you have the souls 24:57 of the righteous--or better saying, 25:00 of the martyrs, actually-- 25:03 crying under the altar. 25:07 What altar would be this? 25:10 This is the altar of burnt offerings, 25:13 where sacrifices were offered. 25:17 At the same time, 25:19 they sacrificed, 25:22 or their life was sacrificed there, 25:24 and the evidence for being the altar of sacrifice, 25:28 because there is a reference of blood, 25:30 and there where blood sacrifices were offered. 25:34 But this is, again, a metaphorical language, 25:37 because even a Lutheran theologian, Lenski, 25:42 he says, "If this would be taken literally, 25:46 "what a huge opening should be under the altar, 25:50 "so that all the souls 25:54 of the righteous people could fit into it." 25:58 But this is not actually the case. 26:00 It's interesting that Jesus 26:04 actually made a reference 26:07 to the blood of Abel. 26:11 And even God, when God spoke to Cain, 26:14 you remember there in Genesis, chapter 4, He said 26:17 that the blood of Abel was crying to Him. 26:22 And at the same time you have Jesus 26:25 referring to the blood as well. And in Hebrews, 26:32 and this is Hebrews 11:4, 26:35 it says through faith the blood of Abel "still speaks." 26:41 So this is a metaphoric language 26:42 where the blood is speaking for justice, 26:48 not only of Abel, but also of the martyrs, 26:52 and speaking to God, 26:55 asking God to make justice. 26:59 >>Beautifully put. So God is one day going to bring justice. 27:03 In this world right now, there is a lot of injustice. 27:06 And a lot of people pay for their Christian faith, 27:08 many of them with their lives. 27:10 But one day God is going to make everything right, 27:14 and that day is not in the very distant future. 27:17 Want to encourage you, 27:18 if you want to dig more into these texts, 27:20 make sure that you do pick up that companion book. 27:23 It is a wonderful resource 27:25 that will help you to understand those texts 27:27 and a whole lot more much, much better. 27:30 It has been a delight to have you with us again 27:33 this week on "Sabbath School," 27:34 brought to you by It Is Written, 27:36 and I want to invite you to join us again next week 27:39 as we take a look at lesson number 10. 27:43 We are rapidly reaching the end 27:45 of our time together in this lesson, 27:47 but there is much more to come, 27:49 and you don't want to miss any of it. 27:51 God bless you. Thank you once again for joining us, 27:53 and we will see you next time. 27:55 (inspirational theme music) 28:26 (music ends) |
Revised 2022-11-16