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Series Code: IIWSS
Program Code: IIWSS022140S
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00:00 (inspirational theme music)
00:14 >>Welcome to "Sabbath School," 00:16 brought to you by It Is Written. 00:18 We're continuing our study this week 00:20 on the subject of "Death, Dying, and the Future Hope." 00:22 And this week we are looking at lesson number 10, 00:25 "The Fires of Hell." Now, lest you be terribly concerned 00:30 and turn off and stop watching right now, 00:33 I will encourage you 00:34 that there is good news in this subject; 00:36 in fact, there is phenomenal news in this subject, 00:39 and we're going to dig into it 00:40 and understand it better today 00:42 with the help of the author of the Sabbath school lesson, 00:45 Dr. Alberto Timm. 00:46 He is an associate director of the Ellen G. White Estate. 00:49 Alberto, welcome back. 00:51 >>I am honored to be with you. 00:53 >>So we are on lesson number 10 now. 00:55 We've got four more to go, and here in lesson number 10, 00:59 we're hitting the fires of hell. 01:01 We've covered a lot of ground already. 01:03 We've got a pretty good understanding 01:04 of what happens at death and why it happens 01:06 and its origins and so forth, 01:08 but now we're looking at, well, eternal death for some. 01:13 And it's a subject that, well, 01:15 maybe isn't the top of the list 01:17 for people to delve into for an uplifting study, 01:20 but maybe it ought to be. But before we dig in to it, 01:24 I wanna kinda reference a sermon, 01:29 probably one of the most famous sermons on this subject. 01:33 It--I will suggest that it's perhaps 01:35 a little misguided, perhaps a lot misguided, 01:38 and yet one of the most famous ones on this subject. 01:42 It was preached in the year 1741 by Jonathan Edwards: 01:46 "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." 01:51 Doesn't sound very pleasant, but what was the-- 01:55 tell us a little bit more about this sermon. 01:57 What was in it? What was behind it? 02:01 Help us understand this. 02:03 >>Well, this famous sermon was preached 02:07 by Jonathan Edwards, 02:10 and he was a Congregationalist theologian 02:13 and revivalist, and he preached it for the first time-- 02:17 because he repeated it other times-- 02:20 but the first time that he preached was in July 8, 1741, 02:25 in a town in Connecticut. 02:29 And he was speaking in this one, really, 02:31 that all of us are condemned to hell. 02:35 It would not be for the sake of God's mercy, 02:38 would fall into hell and will be consumed 02:43 by the fires, and he dramatized it very much, 02:46 saying that there was just a little tiny quarter-- 02:49 whatever you would call that--holds you 02:51 from the fires of hell. 02:53 If it breaks, really, you are there for all eternity. 02:57 And so he dramatized it so much 03:00 that people raised from the pew 03:03 and embraced the columns, some of them, 03:05 the columns of the church 03:07 that hold the roof of the church there, 03:13 begging and shouting--and so loudly-- 03:17 and asking for God's mercy to hold them, 03:21 avoiding them to go to hell. It was so loud 03:27 that he could not even finish his sermon, 03:30 and that became famous because of the negative. 03:33 If today people speak a lot about God's love, 03:36 that one was the opposite one, really, 03:39 speaking of justice that would punish 03:43 the wicked in the flames of hell forever, 03:47 forever and ever, for all eternity. Can you imagine? 03:52 >>So I'm gonna ask the next question. 03:55 I--maybe part of the answer is obvious, 03:57 but what kind of an impact did that sermon have? 04:00 I think part of the answer is 04:02 we're talking about it now in 2022. 04:05 So clearly it had an impact, 04:07 but what are some other elements 04:09 of the impact that that sermon had 04:11 and continues to have in the world today? 04:16 >>Actually, we have to consider something. 04:18 That is not the first time that such a message 04:21 was really portrayed. 04:24 And I have a few books with me here-- 04:26 maybe you saw it before--from Plato. 04:29 You have one, it's called "Phaedo," 04:33 and the other one is "Phaedrus." 04:37 And some people confuse the two. 04:39 They believe that they are exactly the same book. 04:42 No, it just changes a little bit, the title here, 04:45 but both of them deal with this. 04:48 But the idea of hell is an ancient pagan idea 04:52 that was really very much shaped into Greek philosophy. 04:57 And so Plato, 04:59 recording the words of Socrates, 05:03 he portrays hell in this way, 05:05 where after that you go over there, and you are punished. 05:10 And so this is not the only one; there are other ones. 05:13 Some people say--at least one author, 05:15 and I think that he is right-- 05:16 the idea of a always-burning hell comes, is a mixture, 05:21 is of Greek mythology 05:25 with northern European paganism. 05:28 And that really helped. 05:30 And this came into Christianity, basically, 05:33 during the Hellenistic period 05:36 and the influence during the Roman Empire, 05:40 and it was quite used, really, to scare people. 05:45 So I would never leave the ancient 05:48 or medieval church because if I would leave the church, 05:55 I would go to hell almost immediately after that. 05:57 So in other words, that was a way 06:00 to keep members or believers 06:04 faithful to the church by means of fear. 06:08 And so this idea continues till now. 06:12 Of course, many Christian theologians 06:16 are trying to accommodate a little bit 06:19 and saying, "Well, this idea of eternal, 06:26 always-burning hell, we will finally have a end." 06:31 And so the idea of all eternity is not so much popular, 06:34 but the idea of burning over there still remains. 06:38 >>It's kind of an interesting contrast or dilemma 06:42 that Christians face in accepting an eternally-burning hell 06:47 because if that's the case, if hell does burn forever, 06:51 and if people in hell are tortured forever, 06:54 then that would mean that God is miraculously 06:58 keeping sin in existence, throughout eternity, 07:02 which is difficult to reconcile with a God of love. 07:06 And yet many Christians are trying to find ways to do that. 07:10 It's fascinating. 07:12 >>So, in other words, yes, you are right, because all life, 07:16 whether of the righteous or the wicked, comes from God. 07:22 We cannot create life. Life comes from Him. 07:25 So why He continue providing life 07:27 for people to be punished forever in hell? 07:31 So it seems one of the consequences of this view 07:35 is that would, after the new heaven 07:39 and the new earth will be in place, 07:42 and God promised, "I will make everything new," 07:47 that is not the case; it's not everything, 07:50 some things, because there still would continue 07:52 a hell burning over there. 07:55 And in other words, God would keep in the universe somewhere 08:00 a penal camp. 08:05 Well, (chuckles) I don't think 08:06 that this is part of God's plan. 08:10 >>You know, it also, this idea of an eternally-burning 08:13 or an ever-burning hell also negates 08:16 probably the most famous scripture in the entire Bible, 08:20 at least the most quoted scripture in the entire Bible, 08:22 and that's John 3:16, says that "For God so loved the world, 08:26 "that He gave His only begotten Son, 08:28 "that whosoever believeth in Him 08:30 [would] not perish, but have everlasting life." 08:34 So there are two choices there, 08:36 either everlasting life or perishing, 08:39 and perishing is not the same as everlasting life. 08:41 So it's an interesting challenge 08:42 that many Christians hopefully 08:44 will face sooner or later to realize 08:47 that this teaching doesn't have a biblical basis. 08:49 Now, some Christians have come against this idea that, 08:54 this unpleasant idea that God keeps sinners 08:58 roasting throughout eternity, and they say, 09:00 "Well, we can't stomach that. We can't have that 09:02 "because we still believe that God is love, 09:05 and we can't seem to reconcile it." 09:07 So this idea of purgatory came into existence. 09:11 Talk a little bit about purgatory. What supposedly is it? 09:15 What's its purpose? 09:17 And is there any evidence for it in the Bible? 09:20 >>Well, the concept of purgatory 09:23 has its origin in Greek philosophy as well. 09:27 It's surprisingly--much of our thought is shaped by them, 09:32 to such extent that one historian even says that 09:37 we think the way we do 09:41 because the Greek thought the way they did. 09:45 So in other words, we are our Western culture 09:50 and even Christianity, 09:52 exported to the non-Western world, 09:55 also was much shaped by this kind of thinking. 09:59 So the idea of purgatory comes from Plato as well, 10:04 where you go there, you are being punished over there, 10:07 and so in other words, for Greek philosophy, 10:10 if you were purified, "purified," 10:14 by philosophy, or if you were a philosopher, 10:19 you would go directly to the paradise, 10:21 to the main place--using our language today, "paradise," 10:26 they had other ones; I don't want to complicate it-- 10:28 would go there; otherwise you would have to purify 10:32 in a certain purgatory there. 10:35 And this idea was incorporated 10:40 by the Christian world 10:42 under the influence of the Greco world empire 10:46 and also the Hellenistic period. 10:49 And so that has been one of the main points. 10:53 And to that they added another element. 10:56 This is the element of praying for the souls 11:00 in purgatory. And that has also a pagan origin, 11:05 and you have one of the apocryphal books 11:07 that speaks about this, but not a canonical Bible, really, 11:11 as we understand, has that kind of notion. 11:14 So in other words, to make the story short, 11:19 there is a purgatory, if you are not a saint or a martyr, 11:23 then you go. First, the intermediate state 11:28 would be the purgatory, and people who are alive today, 11:32 some of your friends or relatives can pray for you 11:37 and even pay some kind of money for the church, 11:41 and by doing so, you can lower a little bit of sufferings 11:46 of the purgatory. 11:47 So that even became, in the days of Luther, 11:50 a way of making much money. 11:53 And you remember that in Germany 11:55 you have Johann Tetzel 11:59 that was the famous indulgence seller over there 12:03 to lower the payment of-- 12:07 I mean the punishment--in the purgatory. 12:10 >>"When a coin in the coffer rings, 12:12 a soul from purgatory springs." (Dr. Timm laughing) 12:15 It has kind of a lyrical element to it. 12:19 Sounds great, not particularly biblical, though. 12:23 And a lot of things that even much of Christianity today 12:27 also believes, well, at least to some extent or another, 12:30 sounds great, but as you dig into it, 12:32 it doesn't make a lot of sense, 12:34 and it's certainly not biblical. 12:35 The beautiful thing about God's Word 12:37 is if we understand it correctly, 12:39 it is understandable, it's reasonable, 12:44 and it's filled with hope. 12:46 And that really is one of the reasons 12:47 why we're spending 14 weeks looking at the subject 12:51 "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope." 12:53 It's so that we can have the right perspective 12:56 and a hope on things in this world. 12:59 I want to encourage you again, 13:00 if you haven't already done so, 13:02 I know I bring this up every week, 13:04 but my hope is that you will get this book, 13:06 "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope." 13:08 It's the companion book to the quarterly study 13:11 that you're doing right now. 13:13 It adds so much more 13:14 and is great for sharing your faith as well. 13:17 You can pick this up at itiswritten.shop. 13:21 Again, that's itiswritten.shop, 13:23 "On Death, Dying, and the Future Hope" 13:24 by author Alberto Timm. 13:26 We're going to be back in just a moment, 13:28 and we're going to continue this look 13:30 at the subject of hell. We'll be right back. 13:32 (inspirational theme music swells and ends) 13:37 (ominous music) 13:38 >>[John Bradshaw] The idea continues to fill people 13:40 with dread. 13:42 People all around the world live in fear of hell. 13:47 But what did Jesus say about it? 13:49 (rhythmic chime music) 13:51 What does the Bible actually say about hell? 13:55 And how can we separate the fact from the fiction? 13:59 (rhythmic chime and marimba music) 14:00 Join me in the beautiful Caribbean for "To Hell and Back." 14:06 We'll go to Hell, and we'll come back, 14:08 and while we are there, 14:09 we'll discover what the Word of God actually says 14:12 about this vitally important subject. 14:15 Is it as bad as people think? Maybe it's worse. 14:19 Or perhaps, perhaps God has a special message in the Bible 14:24 enabling us to see the love of God, 14:27 even in the fires of hell. 14:29 (soft piano music) 14:30 Don't miss "To Hell and Back," 14:33 brought to you by It Is Written TV. 14:37 (inspirational theme music) 14:42 >>Welcome back to "Sabbath School," 14:44 brought to you by It Is Written. 14:46 This week we are looking at "The Fires of Hell" 14:48 and looking for hope and encouragement in this subject, 14:51 and I think we're finding it, 14:53 and we're going to continue to in this final segment 14:55 of today's study. You know, it's important, Alberto, 14:58 as we look at this subject that we're looking at today, 15:00 as well as the greater subject 15:02 that we're covering this quarter on death, 15:06 to not be judgemental. 15:08 You know, sometimes it can be tempting 15:12 when we say, "Here's what the Bible says, 15:13 "but, oh, there's so many other people out there 15:15 who don't believe this," 15:17 there's a temptation to be judgemental 15:20 and maybe to feel some sense of superiority 15:23 that we have the truth and that they don't, 15:25 or something like that. 15:26 That may not be the healthiest perspective, though. 15:28 What do you think? 15:29 >>Yes, that is the case. 15:30 We are here to evaluate ideas 15:33 from a biblical perspective. 15:36 So it's not to judge people or churches or denominations 15:40 because each one has his or her own view. 15:45 But I understand that we are here with a mission, 15:47 and the mission is to dig into the Word of God 15:50 as much as we can, not only by comparing 15:54 or to endorsing what we believe or not, 15:57 but to also contrast with some views 16:00 that we understand from our perspective, 16:03 from our study of the Bible, 16:05 that do not fit into the overall, 16:07 the consensus of Scripture. 16:11 >>So we're looking at hell right now and also at purgatory. 16:15 Why was this concept, 16:17 this understanding of hell and of purgatory 16:20 popular in the post-apostolic era of the church? 16:23 And you mentioned that it came out, at least portions of it, 16:28 came out of Plato and Socrates and so forth, 16:32 but does this idea have any biblical support? 16:35 Where does the idea come from, 16:36 if it's supposedly based on the Bible? 16:40 >>Well, actually, they tried to read the Bible. 16:44 As I mentioned before, at the beginning of our series, 16:47 people try to read the Bible from their own perspective, 16:52 their worldview, our lenses, our philosophy, 16:56 our ideology, and so on. If you have a framework, 17:01 you want to make everything fit into that framework, 17:05 unless you change the paradigm. 17:07 And in our case, we have a paradigm as well, 17:11 and I hope that our paradigm is the Bible. 17:14 So what happened with the Christian world 17:17 is after the death of the apostles, 17:22 and in the post-apostolic era, 17:26 when Christianity moved away from Palestine 17:30 into the Roman, 17:34 Greco-Roman culture, 17:36 they absorbed many elements because we usually 17:40 are children of some kind of society, 17:43 of our culture, and to some degree, 17:50 Christianity was able to hold its biblical identity. 17:56 But more and more, to be accepted 17:57 by the philosophical world of that time, 18:00 they tried to reread the Bible 18:02 from a allegorical perspective 18:07 and incorporated some elements. 18:10 And, of course, this is a very significant point 18:14 that I would like to make. It's the following: 18:18 The New Testament uses 18:22 the Greek language, 18:24 words that were part of classical Greek, 18:30 although, of course, it was the popular Greek, 18:32 called Koine, and not the classical one, 18:36 but words--but you have to remember something. 18:40 The New Testament uses words 18:44 of the language available at that time, 18:47 but not with a classical philosophical meaning, 18:51 but the background to understand the New Testament words 18:56 were the Old Testament, the Hebrew mind, 18:59 not the Greek mindset but a Hebrew mindset, 19:03 but using the language, 19:04 some people would probably read into the Bible 19:07 the Greek meaning to it. 19:10 And I don't want to complicate very much to this, 19:13 but remember, this Paul not speak about: 19:19 body, spirit, 19:22 and soul--something like that, yes? 19:25 I can say, well, this is the same as the Greeks spoke. 19:30 Well, for the Greeks, they can be 19:32 that kind of dichotomic approach where you're separating, 19:36 so there is a surviving soul after that, 19:40 but from a biblical perspective, no; it's that 19:44 this meant, like, spirit is the whole, 19:48 with emphasis in this part, 19:50 the whole with emphasis in my body or soul, 19:53 never disconnected. 19:55 So this kind of process of trying to read the Bible 20:00 through the Hellenistic mind 20:02 is that brought not only this kind of dichotomic approach 20:06 of a spirit or soul surviving the Bible-- 20:10 I mean, the death of the body-- 20:12 but also the idea of everlasting hell. 20:16 And there is something that I would just like to add. 20:19 Of course the Bible speak of the fire that never get-- 20:25 that will always burn, or so on. 20:27 Remember, that the word "eternal" 20:30 in the original Bible languages, 20:34 it has always a meaning that is attached to whatever, 20:38 the meaning depends on the context. 20:42 When the word "eternal" is applied to God, 20:46 who never had a beginning and never will have an end, 20:50 then it means something that will never cease. 20:54 When it's to the fire, the eternal fire, 20:57 what it means, really, is that the fire will continue 21:02 till accomplishes the destruction, 21:04 will not really go out before that, 21:08 will continue till then, and the consequences 21:10 will be eternal as well. 21:12 So does not mean that the fire itself will continue. 21:16 But then you can ask me, Eric, where did you get this idea? 21:21 Well, if you go to the epistle of Jude, 21:25 you will see something there, that Sodom and Gomorrah 21:29 are symbols of the everlasting fire. 21:31 Are they, those cities, still burning in the Middle East? 21:35 No. But they were destroyed. 21:38 So the fire is "eternal" in or "everlasting" 21:42 in the sense that will accomplish 21:44 what is intended to accomplish. 21:47 >>So if we come to the Bible with a presupposition, 21:50 a worldview, a perspective 21:53 that lends us to think that hellfire 21:56 burns throughout eternity because we've been influenced 21:59 by Hellenistic beliefs over time and so forth, 22:02 and then we read words in the Bible 22:04 like "everlasting fire" or "eternal fire," 22:07 we automatically start to think 22:09 that that fire is going to be forever, 22:13 that it's not going to go out, but if instead, 22:15 we simply let the Bible speak directly to us, 22:18 without that preconceived idea, 22:21 then we get a little clearer picture of what's going on. 22:25 What are some of the implications, 22:29 if the Bible did speak of an everlasting fire, 22:34 if a hellfire that never ends, 22:37 what are some of the implications of that, 22:40 if that were true? 22:42 >>Well, there are several that we could mention, 22:46 and, of course, for the sake of time, 22:47 I will just mention a few of them. 22:50 But one of them, the main one in my understanding, 22:54 it really damages God's character. 23:00 In other words, if God is love 23:04 and is just, 23:06 the idea of a everlasting punishment for the wicked 23:10 is something absolutely un-proportional. 23:14 In other words, what do I mean by this? 23:18 Let's suppose a child 23:21 that was not a good one 23:24 dies at 12 years of age, 23:29 was not that bad, not a criminal or something like that, 23:32 but a child that did not have any interest in religion. 23:35 Why should that child be punished for the 12 years? 23:39 Well, even less than 12 years, 23:41 till the age of reason started, 23:43 but for those few years, throughout the whole eternity 23:47 in a huge fire, in the flames of hell-- 23:52 is this not something unjust from the part of God? 23:57 Usually a sentence, 23:59 even in our own justice courthouses 24:04 or so, is proportional to the guilt 24:07 or to whatever the person did. 24:10 It's not out of this kind. So I think that in this case, 24:15 God would be putting a-- 24:19 will be providing a punishment completely out of proportion. 24:26 Another point is, if they are punished, 24:28 immediately after death, 24:31 then the final judgment does not make sense. 24:34 Why to release somebody from the punishment of hell 24:39 to bring here to be resurrected, as the Bible says? 24:43 Because the resurrection is not only for the righteous, 24:47 is for the wicked also, 24:48 according to Revelation, chapter 20. 24:52 Why to bring here to be judged 24:54 and to send back again to the same fires of hell 24:59 to be punished? This is something absolutely unreasonable. 25:04 And so in this case, 25:07 I think that we have to reverse it. 25:10 We have enough Bible evidences that say 25:14 that each one would be punished-- 25:17 and this, I am referring again 25:19 to Revelation 20--will be punished according to their works. 25:25 It's not something--"Now I will be punishing with all power 25:29 throughout eternity." 25:30 No. And there will be a time, according to Malachi, 25:35 chapter 4, verse 1, 25:38 where there will be left nothing from the wicked. 25:42 They will be absolutely destroyed. 25:45 So God has a better plan. 25:48 He will punish them because they deserve it, 25:51 and that was their choice, 25:54 but it will be proportional to their works, 25:56 and this is absolutely clear from the Bible. 26:00 We have no doubts about this. 26:03 >>So if I understand you correctly, 26:05 what you said is the wicked 26:06 will one day experience hellfire, 26:10 but it's not going to be a hellfire 26:13 that lasts throughout eternity, it's limited in time, 26:18 and the purpose of it is to destroy sin 26:22 and any sinners who choose to cling to that sin, 26:25 but ultimately, the sinners are going to be reduced 26:28 to ashes and dust, and never will they be anymore. 26:30 Is that correct? 26:31 >>Exactly. 26:32 >>All right, so that gives us a picture 26:34 of God not keeping sin in existence throughout eternity, 26:38 but ultimately bringing sin, bringing suffering, 26:42 bringing rebellion, bringing pain to an end, 26:46 and even the devil himself. 26:49 The Bible talks about God kindling a supernatural fire 26:52 in the midst of the devil and turning him 26:54 to ashes and smoke, and never would he be anymore. 26:58 So even the instigator of all this, ultimately, 27:00 is not going to suffer without end. 27:04 He's going to be turned to ashes and smoke as well. 27:07 The positive side of all this is from that point forward, 27:11 there's going to be peace and serenity and happiness 27:14 and joy throughout the entire universe 27:17 and iniquity "will not rise up a second time." 27:20 That's encouraging to me. 27:21 I hope that it's encouraging to you. 27:24 Next week, when we come back, 27:25 we're going to continue our journey 27:28 through this subject of "Death, Dying, and the Future Hope." 27:32 And my hope and prayer is that 27:34 as we've gone through week by week, 27:36 you have been blessed and your understanding 27:38 has been opened just a little bit more 27:40 and you've been able to see a clearer picture 27:42 of a God who loves you. We'll be back again next week 27:45 here on "Sabbath School," brought to you by It Is Written. 27:49 We look forward to seeing you then. God bless you. 27:51 (inspirational theme music) 28:25 (music ends) |
Revised 2022-11-22