Participants:
Series Code: LGS
Program Code: LGS200404S
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00:01 Hello. I'm Sven Ostring.
00:02 Welcome to Let God Speak. 00:04 For a young person 00:06 who's trying to figure out what is really true, 00:09 the world can feel like a rather confusing place. 00:12 Many around us have so many different ideas 00:15 and worldviews, 00:17 and they all are claiming to be telling the truth. 00:20 It can feel like a bit of a confusing maze. 00:23 How do we know which worldview is true? 00:27 The good news is that God has revealed to us 00:29 His transcendent understanding of the world, 00:32 through the Bible, we're going to be exploring 00:34 God's worldview 00:36 and how we can share it with young people. 01:05 To discuss this topic, we have Gayl Fong. 01:07 Thank you so much for joining us today. 01:09 Thank you. And also Clive Nash. 01:11 It's good to have you here. Good to be here. 01:13 Let's pray together as we dive into God's Word today. 01:18 Father in heaven, we recognize that 01:21 we are so small in this world, 01:24 when we look at space and all of the planets 01:27 and galaxies and constellations, 01:30 Lord, our view is so microscopic. 01:35 And, Lord, sometimes we try to explain 01:38 what the whole world is like. 01:40 But we want to know what Your view of our world is. 01:44 We wanna understand your picture 01:47 of who we are and where are we going, 01:50 where we've come from as well. 01:52 Lord, as we head into the Bible today, 01:54 we pray that Your Holy Spirit 01:56 would transform our minds so that we can humble ourselves 02:00 and accept what you want to reveal to us 02:03 today is our prayer. 02:04 In Jesus' name. Amen. 02:06 Amen. Amen. 02:08 In 1999, Warner Brothers Studios produced 02:11 what is now considered 02:13 to be one of the greatest 02:14 science fiction films ever created. 02:18 The film I'm referring to is "The Matrix," 02:21 a very thought-provoking film on many levels. 02:25 The basic storyline is that people don't realize that 02:28 they're trapped inside a matrix. 02:30 It takes a computer nerd called 02:32 Neo to free people from this matrix. 02:36 As you reflect on the message of the film, 02:38 you can detect 02:40 an underlying theme of salvation, 02:42 even though it's still a bit distorted. 02:45 The critical problem in the film 02:47 is that reality is not what it seems. 02:51 We believe that we are living ordinary lives, 02:53 going to work in the morning 02:55 and then coming home in the evening to our families. 02:58 But the reality is nothing like that. 03:01 It's just an illusion, a computer simulation. 03:04 We're actually trapped inside a giant matrix 03:07 where highly intelligent machines 03:09 are using us, like a human farm, 03:12 to harvest our energy, 03:14 there has to come to the understanding 03:15 of the truth so he can save all of humanity. 03:20 You know, "The Matrix" is just a film. 03:23 But it does challenge us to us 03:24 whether what we think is real is actually true. 03:28 You know, is this just a theme for science fiction movies? 03:33 Or is it more of an issue in our world? 03:35 Is it possible that the world may be very different 03:40 from what we believe to be the case? 03:43 No, throughout history, 03:44 people have believed different things 03:46 about the world that weren't true. 03:49 For an example, for 2,000 years intelligent 03:53 and well educated people believe that 03:55 actually the world was stationary 03:58 and that everything in the universe 04:00 revolved around the earth. 04:01 And, you know, we can understand that 04:03 why they felt that, Gayl, because of course, you know, 04:06 when we stand on the ground, 04:08 except when there's earthquakes and other things like that, 04:10 it does feel very stationary, 04:11 and it looks like the stars are going, 04:14 you know, round around the sky. 04:16 So we can understand it. 04:18 But, you know, the question, Clive, is this, 04:21 is it an issue which we still see even today? 04:25 Well, we might, from our standpoint 04:27 here in the 21st century, 04:29 so, well, as medieval people, 04:32 you know, they had a pretty limited idea of things 04:34 and we smile at them. 04:37 But there are a lot of well educated people today, 04:40 people with science degrees, 04:44 who think that we came out of some kind of warm pond 04:47 and, you know, life just evolved by chance. 04:49 Yes. Yes. 04:51 You know, that leads us to a very interesting point. 04:54 People will say that science shows that 04:58 the earth is moving, 04:59 in fact, it's hurtling around the sun 05:02 at an incredible speed of 108,000 kilometers per hour, 05:07 which is incredibly fast. 05:09 And so what science has shown that 05:11 the earth is not stationary, as you observed, Gayl. 05:15 We also not only moving very fast 05:17 but we located on the edge of the Milky Way galaxy 05:22 in a remote corner, shall I say, of the universe. 05:26 So I guess the question is this if the scientific explanation 05:30 for how life began was that 05:33 we evolved from a warm little pond 05:36 as Darwin put it, 05:37 shouldn't we automatically accept that too? 05:40 You know, shouldn't we say, well, back in Galileo's time, 05:45 the church was wrong, so we should admit that 05:47 we're wrong now 05:49 and just accept the scientific viewpoint. 05:53 Well, that's actually a misunderstanding 05:56 of what happened. 05:57 And I have a quote here 05:58 perhaps that would just throw some light on that. 06:02 John Linux, he's pointed out that, 06:04 "Galileo enjoyed a great deal of support 06:07 from religious intellectuals, at least at the start, 06:10 the astronomers of the powerful Jesuit educational institution, 06:15 the Collegia Romano 06:17 initially endorsed his astronomical work 06:20 and vetted him for it. 06:22 However, he was vigorously opposed 06:25 by secular philosophers 06:27 who were in enraged at his criticism of Aristotle. 06:31 So this was bound to cause trouble, 06:34 be it emphasize not at first with the church." 06:38 Very interesting. That's right, Gayl. 06:41 And in especially "A Brief History of Time" 06:44 by Stephen Hawking, 06:47 he wrote that Galileo actually annoyed 06:49 the Aristotelian philosophers 06:52 who united against him seeking to persuade the Catholic Church 06:56 to his cosmology 06:58 or his view of the of the cosmos. 07:00 And the real problem was that the Catholic Church 07:04 was persuaded by the scientists of the day 07:08 to conform to science. 07:10 Well, what they thought was good science of their day. 07:14 And, unfortunately, 07:16 I think the mainstream Christianity, 07:18 the Catholic Church in particular, 07:20 are making a similar mistake today 07:22 by adopting the Big Bang Theory 07:25 and theistic evolution, for example. 07:28 Theistic evolution is one of your areas, 07:31 I think, you might like to just define. 07:34 I was going to define it, 07:35 but I thought it might be better coming from you. 07:37 Yes. Sure. Sure. 07:39 Yes. 07:40 So theistic evolution is basically this idea 07:42 that Neo Darwinian evolution 07:46 has occurred down through history, 07:48 and the gods supervise this process. 07:52 And that is how we came about and, 07:54 in particular, that there was no observable, 07:57 identifiable time when God stepped in to create. 08:02 So you can accommodate long ages of the earth, 08:05 for example, in that sort of philosophy. 08:07 That's correct. That's correct. 08:08 And so as you rightly say, Clive, you know, 08:11 the Catholic Church has adopted 08:13 both the Big Bang cosmology 08:15 but also theistic evolution as well. 08:18 But what I want to do 08:19 is I want to go back to the movie, 08:22 The Matrix, and the idea that was brought up 08:25 in that because, you know, 08:27 we can say, well, that's just a movie. 08:29 You know, movie makers produce stories 08:33 about all sorts of things. 08:35 But it's really fascinating that there is a Swedish 08:38 professor called Professor Nick Bostrom, 08:42 who believes that we are actually living 08:45 in a computer simulation. 08:47 So this world, 08:49 everything around us is a simulation. 08:52 And that might sound very, very crazy to you. 08:55 But the fascinating thing is he's not alone. 08:58 So think of Elon Musk, 09:00 the CEO of the Tesla car company. 09:03 SpaceX. Yes, exactly. 09:05 And also, you have Neil deGrasse Tyson, 09:09 who is a TV presenter on science. 09:12 Both of them agree on TV 09:17 that we might be living in a computer simulation. 09:21 And I guess my question for us today is this, 09:23 what do you make of this idea 09:26 that these well informed scientific people, 09:29 the idea that I'm putting forward? 09:31 I think it confirms that really intelligent people 09:34 can have some very farfetched ideas. 09:37 It is amazing, isn't it? It is amazing. 09:38 I was thinking, as in the back 09:41 to the 17th century philosopher Descartes. 09:44 Right. 09:45 French philosopher, who said in his own language... 09:50 [speaking in French] 09:52 Which I think has become more... 09:55 It had become better known in the Latin cogito, ergo sum, 09:59 "I think therefore I am." 10:01 You know, so I must exist because I'm thinking. 10:04 That's right. 10:07 So, you know, this sort of this idea of 10:13 if there's design in the universe, 10:15 there must be a designer. 10:17 Yes. 10:18 And that fits in with a Christian worldview. 10:23 Yes, absolutely. 10:24 So what the computer simulation concept 10:26 is really telling us or it kind of supports, 10:29 'cause, you know, 10:31 we know that computer simulations 10:32 are created environments. 10:35 So it supports this idea that the whole universe 10:38 is actually designed by intelligent being, 10:41 as you say, Clive, it's really fascinating. 10:44 But that leads us 10:46 to two fundamentally different worldviews. 10:49 Two fundamentally different worldviews, 10:51 on one hand, you have this idea 10:54 that the universe is all that is. 10:57 And Carl Sagan, 10:58 another very famous TV presenter, 11:01 in the 20th century said this, 11:02 "The cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be." 11:06 That's a classic statement 11:09 from an atheist and a naturalist. 11:11 But then the other worldview is that the universe 11:16 has been created and designed. 11:19 And so my question, Gayl, is this. 11:22 Which worldview does the Bible support? 11:25 Well, the Bible is very clear. 11:27 And if we were to turn to Psalm 53:1, 11:32 I'm just reading from the New King James, 11:34 "The fool has said in his heart, 11:36 there is no God. 11:38 They are corrupt 11:40 and have done abominable iniquity. 11:42 There is none who does good." Now it's interesting. 11:47 The biblical concept of a fool 11:50 is actually not someone who's stupid. 11:53 What the Bible means is a fool 11:56 is someone who is morally undiscerning. 11:59 So according to their worldview is how they will live and act. 12:05 Very interesting. Very interesting. 12:06 It's interesting that the wisest man who ever lived, 12:09 and Proverbs 15:3, 12:14 he makes a comment here that, 12:16 "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, 12:20 keeping watch on the evil and on the good." 12:24 So to me, what this text is saying, 12:26 in part, is that God's got a worldview as well, 12:30 you know, He is looking and He takes everything in. 12:33 In. Yes. 12:35 And whether we ourselves 12:37 include God in our worldview or not, 12:41 we are definitely in His worldview. 12:42 That is fascinating. 12:44 That's a great insight, Clive. 12:45 And I guess, one of the major differences 12:49 between the naturalistic worldview 12:52 and the biblical worldview or the worldview 12:56 that this world was created is the idea that God 13:00 has the ability and the power to step in to our world 13:05 and perform miracles. 13:07 So He is not bound by the natural laws that 13:11 he has built into the universe itself. 13:15 So I guess, Gayl, it comes to that question, 13:18 what does the Bible say about this? 13:20 Is God bound by the natural laws 13:23 that He has created? 13:25 Well, He isn't because He goes beyond. 13:30 And God is a God who performs many miracles. 13:33 And the Bible has so many accounts of miracles 13:35 which are actually outside those natural laws. 13:39 And an example would be the outstanding miracle 13:43 of the beginning of Jesus human existence. 13:47 When Mary was visited 13:49 by the angel Gabriel and he told her that 13:51 she would become a mother, she would bear a child, 13:55 and this child is going to be the Son of God. 13:58 Well, Mary she was, 13:59 I'm sure she must have been absolutely amazed. 14:01 But she was very humble. 14:03 And she just simply asked, "How can this be so?" 14:06 Because she was a virgin, 14:08 and the angel Gabriel explains in the book of Luke Chapter 1, 14:13 if we turn the Luke 1:35, 14:18 "And the angel answered and said to her, 14:21 "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, 14:24 and the power of the highest will overshadow you, 14:28 therefore also that Holy One 14:30 who is to be born will be called the Son of God." 14:34 Well, this is an absolute miracle 14:36 because it's impossible 14:39 for a virgin to conceive of natural causes. 14:43 Yes. Yes. 14:45 That by themselves. 14:47 It's a bit like the story of creation, isn't it? 14:49 You know, there's no real explanation 14:50 of how it happens, how it's done. 14:53 You just got the state that it is a fact. 14:55 Just base it and it's there. 14:57 Yes. 14:58 What about you, Clive, 15:00 is there any miracles in the Bible 15:02 which stand out to you? 15:03 Well, I think if we go 15:04 to the other end of Christ life, 15:06 you go from the incarnation through to the crucifixion. 15:12 In Romans 1:4, 5, for example, 15:17 Paul writing here, and he says that, 15:21 "We've declared that 15:23 Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, 15:25 with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, 15:28 by the resurrection from the dead. 15:30 Through Him, 15:31 we have received grace and apostleship, 15:33 for obedience to the faith, 15:35 and are all nations for His name." 15:37 So he emphasized here, 15:39 this resurrection from the dead. 15:42 And that Jesus was raised back to life, 15:46 it's often being said, 15:47 Christianity doesn't go 15:49 to the tomb of their founder to say, 15:52 "This is where He's buried." 15:54 You know, out the founder of Christianity is alive. 15:57 That's amazing. That's amazing. 15:58 Thank you... 16:00 And this is not natural for someone to come back 16:02 from the dead. 16:03 Yes, otherwise, we'd see people coming back to life 16:05 all over the place. 16:07 But thank you so much for reminding us 16:09 of these two powerful miracles, amazing miracles. 16:12 And what we wanna do, 16:13 we're gonna go back all the way in history, 16:15 to the very creation of the universe, 16:19 the time and when the universe 16:21 didn't exist as well. 16:23 There was the very famous German mathematician 16:27 called Gottfried Leibniz. 16:29 And he asked the question, 16:31 "Why is there something rather than nothing?" 16:35 Why is there something rather than nothing? 16:37 That's a very profound question. 16:40 So one of the most basic fundamental questions 16:42 we can ask. 16:43 And, Gayl, just wanted to know, what does the Bible say? 16:46 What's the Bible's answer to that question? 16:49 Well, we can go right to the very beginning. 16:52 And God tells us the answer in Genesis 1:1. 16:57 And it reads, "In the beginning, 17:00 God created the heavens and the earth." 17:04 So the answer to that fundamental question 17:08 is the reason 17:10 why there is something rather than nothing 17:12 is because God created everything 17:14 that there is around us. 17:16 And something that I find is just 17:18 so amazing about this verse 17:22 is that word created. 17:25 And I've understood that to mean, 17:28 in the Hebrew, Bara, 17:30 and referring to the actions of God alone 17:35 because I can create a... 17:37 Cake. 17:39 Cake, I can make something, I can design something. 17:41 You are creating something out of something Yes. 17:43 Yes, but I cannot Bara, 17:46 only God can create something from nothing. 17:49 And I just find that simply amazing 17:51 about that in Genesis. 17:52 Yes. 17:54 It's interesting that the New Testament 17:55 and the Bible backs this up in John 1. 17:58 And I'm going to have a look 18:00 at verses 1 to 3 in John's Gospel, 18:03 says, "In the beginning," it's very similar wording 18:06 to the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures, 18:09 "In the beginning was the Word." 18:11 And he's using a code here to mean, 18:13 the Word is Jesus Christ. 18:16 "In the beginning was the Word," as Jesus, 18:19 "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 18:22 He was in the beginning with God. 18:23 And the interesting part about this verse here, 18:27 it says, "All things were made through Him. 18:31 And without Him, 18:32 nothing was made that was made." 18:34 So Jesus was the active person of the Godhead, 18:38 who is there creating. 18:39 It's incredible, isn't it? Yeah. 18:41 Amen. 18:43 And Job points out too that, 18:44 "All the living creatures around us, 18:47 they actually say and will tell us that 18:50 there is a creator, and who created them." 18:53 And just reading in Job 12:7-10, it says, 18:59 "But now ask the beasts, 19:01 and they will teach you and the birds of the air, 19:04 and they will tell you, or speak to the earth, 19:07 and it will teach you and the fish of the sea 19:10 will explain to you 19:12 who among all these does not know, 19:15 in whose hand is the life of every living thing, 19:19 and the breath of all mankind." 19:22 So I just find that very amazing. 19:24 Yes. It's a wonderful thought too. 19:26 Yes, Clive, it's a beautiful thought in terms of 19:29 all of these animals and plants. 19:31 And so what does the Bible tell us 19:33 with regards to the time that it took God to create life 19:39 on earth originally? 19:42 Well, I would answer that question 19:44 by referring to the Ten Commandments, 19:46 Sven Ostring. 19:47 In Exodus Chapter 20, 19:50 we have the Ten Commandments listed there. 19:53 And in particular, the fourth commandment 19:56 answers this question of yours 19:58 because here in Exodus 20:11. 20:03 I have to say, "Remember, the Sabbath day," says, 20:06 "because in six days, the Lord made the heavens 20:09 and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, 20:13 and rested the seventh day." 20:15 So it is the six days of creation. 20:19 Yeah. Six literal days. 20:21 Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. 20:23 You know, one of the questions that I have, 20:28 Gayl, is that, you know, what about, 20:30 we talked about Theistic evolution. 20:32 But there's another possibility. 20:34 And that's what we would call progressive creationism, 20:37 which over billions of years over earth's history, 20:41 the God stepped into to create animals 20:45 and plants as well, you know, 20:47 what do we think of this concept 20:50 and how it relates to the Bible? 20:52 The problem with that idea is we're actually 20:55 just not taking God at His Word. 20:58 He said that He created the world in six days, 21:01 and He rested on the seventh, the Sabbath day. 21:04 So we need to accept what God says. 21:08 The Bible is clear that 21:10 God originally created the world 21:13 and he said it was very good, if we look at Genesis 1, 21:18 for example, the end of the chapter, 21:20 Genesis 1:29, onwards. 21:23 "So see, I've given you every herb 21:24 that yields seed, 21:26 which is on the face of all the earth, 21:28 every tree whose fruit yields seed, 21:31 to you it shall be for food." 21:33 So it was a vegetarian or a vegan lifestyle. 21:36 "And also to every beast of the earth, 21:38 to every bird of the air do." 21:40 Every animal was also, you know, 21:43 there was no loss of life to be able to feed 21:45 the appetite of these creatures. 21:48 And then verse 31 said, 21:49 "God saw everything that He had made, 21:51 and it was very good." 21:52 There was no pain, there was no sin, 21:54 there was no death, no suffering at all. 21:57 Yes. 21:58 And so what this does, of course, 22:00 is that goes directly against 22:02 either deep time evolutionary worldviews 22:05 or even progressive creationism as well. 22:08 It's very fascinating. 22:10 But I guess, yeah, one question is that, 22:13 you know, scientists may come to us and say, 22:16 well, you know, that the Bible is contradicting 22:20 the evidence all around us so that, you know, 22:23 if we are rational, intelligent people, 22:27 we should go with the evidence. 22:29 And how do we respond to that statement? 22:34 Well, it's important to understand that 22:36 we all look at the world 22:38 through a particular lens, and science is no exception. 22:42 So if we took the rainbow as an example, 22:45 and God gave us the rainbow 22:47 as a promise that 22:48 He would never flood the entire world. 22:51 And we read about that account in Genesis Chapter 9. 22:55 And I'm just reading verse 13-16. 22:58 And it reads, "I set my bow in the cloud, 23:01 and it shall be for the sign of the covenant 23:03 between Me and the earth, 23:05 it shall be when I bring a cloud over the earth, 23:08 that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud. 23:11 And I will remember my covenant which is between Me and you 23:15 and every living creature of all flesh, 23:18 the water shall never again 23:20 become a flood to destroy all flesh. 23:22 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, 23:25 and I will look on it 23:26 to remember the everlasting covenant." 23:30 But when a scientist sees a rainbow, 23:32 they just see the different wavelengths of light. 23:35 So it just depends which lens you're looking at. 23:38 And for us, we are looking at it 23:41 through the evidence of the biblical worldview. 23:46 Through the biblical lens. Yes, that's amazing. 23:49 So, Clive, I'm just, sort of, 23:50 stepping into the shoes of a young person, 23:53 maybe a university student, 23:55 and I love that concept of what you're saying there, 23:58 Gayl, you know, how we are looking at the world 24:00 through a particular lens. 24:02 And in particular, you know, 24:04 we're looking at through the biblical lens. 24:06 But, Clive, the question is this, 24:08 and I think it's a very honest question. 24:11 How do we know that 24:12 the biblical lens is the correct way 24:15 to look at the world? 24:18 Well, that's a big question, Sven, 24:21 and we'd have to take several episodes, 24:23 I think, if we let God speak to us 24:25 and thoroughly answer that one. 24:27 But I just put it two principles, 24:30 I think, which may help to lead us 24:32 in the right direction. 24:33 First of all, the matter of prophecy, 24:38 that's the first one 24:40 if I turn over to John 13:19, 24:45 and I'm looking at the words of Jesus here, John 13:19, 24:48 He says, "Now I tell you, before it comes, 24:51 that when it does come to pass, 24:53 you may believe that I am He." 24:56 So this is the first key prophecy 25:00 and it happens, is a key to understanding that. 25:04 The other one is, 25:06 certainly Jesus points to His miracles, 25:08 and we go back in John's Gospel 5:36, 25:14 he says, "I have a greater witness than John's, 25:18 for the works which the Father has given me to finish 25:21 the very works that I do be a witness of me, 25:25 that the Father has sent me." 25:27 The miracles that Jesus performed, 25:30 you know, to be able to raise a widow's son for example, 25:36 you know, to heal someone of leprosy that 25:39 there are so many miracles that He performed, 25:41 which were outside of the realms 25:43 of our natural world. 25:45 So certainly prophecy 25:47 fulfilled the miracles of Jesus, 25:50 these are two keys. 25:51 Fantastic. Thank you so much, Clive. 25:52 And I just wanted to ask both of you, 25:56 we've covered some really important topics 25:58 in terms of the biblical worldview, 26:00 but in just a quick sort of rapid fire, 26:03 is there anything which you would want to bring 26:05 about in terms of the biblical worldview, 26:09 that you just want to bring to our attention today? 26:12 Well, we're in the midst of a spiritual battle, 26:15 but we have a loving Savior, 26:17 He's not only our Creator, He's our Redeemer. 26:20 And He promises that as we put our trust in Him 26:24 that He will take us through. 26:25 Yes, anything that you'd like to bring 26:28 to our attention, Clive? 26:29 Well, it's probably a difficult principle, 26:32 but, you know, everything is working together for good, 26:35 the Bible says. 26:36 And God's got our best interests at heart. 26:39 And He's coming back for us. 26:41 That's the really good news. Yeah. 26:44 Such that our worldview brings to us. 26:47 And it's amazing, at the center of this is God's love, 26:50 the fact that Jesus died for us on the cross. 26:54 You know, this has been an amazing discussion, 26:57 exploring the biblical worldview 26:59 and why it is so important 27:01 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church 27:03 to remain committed to promoting it 27:05 in our churches and schools. 27:08 Every other worldview is faulty and will ultimately crumble. 27:13 And we've looked at a number of those today. 27:15 Let's stand firmly on the Word of God. 27:19 We're glad that you joined us today on Let God Speak. 27:23 If you've enjoyed this program, 27:25 you can watch past programs 27:27 on our website 3abnaustralia.org.au. 27:31 You can also download teachers' resources there 27:34 if you're leading your own Bible study. 27:37 If you'd like to get in touch with us, 27:39 send us an email to lgs@3abnaustralia.org.au. 27:44 We look forward to seeing you next time. |
Revised 2020-11-15