Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer Robert Davidson (Host), Nivishi Edwards, Shelley Wiggins, David Guerro
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000007A
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00:29 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:31 We're so happy you joined us for our program. 00:35 We like to focus in this program 00:36 on raising awareness about mental health 00:39 and all of the remedies that are available to us 00:42 to help heal us from our emotional behavioral 00:45 and mental disorders 00:47 I have a wonderful treatment team today 00:49 and I like to introduce them one by one. 00:51 Let's look first at Shelley Wiggins, 00:53 I'm so glad you are here, Shelly. 00:55 She is from Michigan 00:56 and Shelly runs a counseling practice 00:58 called Driftwood Counseling 01:00 and it's through Driftwood Counseling 01:01 that she teats a variety of people 01:04 and a variety of issues. 01:06 She likes to focus on anxiety, addictions and abuse recovery 01:10 and she uses not only talk therapy, 01:13 traditional counseling talk therapy 01:15 but equine therapy with horses. 01:18 So glad to have you here. Thank you. 01:20 Shelly, you always give such practical counsel. 01:23 And very thankful also to have David Guerro here. 01:26 David is from Wisconsin 01:28 and David runs a ministry called Rekindle, The Flame, 01:32 it is a restoration ministry helping people 01:36 experience restoration into the image of God 01:38 which is what he designed us for 01:40 and he wants us to come back to 01:42 and so you're all about that and through that, 01:45 you are chaplain, you're also a pastor, 01:48 you're a life coach and you teach life coaching. 01:51 And you are biblically certified counselor. 01:53 So you are a crazy man, I'm just saying. 01:56 He is a busy man. 01:58 Yeah, but he enjoys life, 01:59 and he loves to share good solid information. 02:01 I'm glad you invited me. 02:03 Yeah, I'm glad to have you here. 02:04 Also have Nivishi, Dr. Nivishi Edwards, 02:07 she is from Tennessee. 02:10 She is a virtual private practice counselor 02:13 at drnivishi.com. 02:15 She's also a teacher at Southern Adventist University 02:18 and inspiring author. 02:20 She's another crazy person that attempts too many things. 02:22 She is a wonderful blessing to the show 02:25 and to me personally and we're sol glad you're here. 02:27 She likes to help people develop healthy relationships 02:31 including healthy relationships with themselves, 02:33 which is important. 02:34 Thank you. Beautiful. 02:36 We have my co-host Rob Davidson, 02:38 Rob works with Abide Counseling Network with me, 02:41 and he also has, 02:42 he is a private practice counselor in the DC area 02:46 and he works the variety of presentations 02:47 on a variety of issues 02:49 but he likes to focusing on helping men 02:52 develop biblical manhood, 02:54 servant leadership and integrity 02:56 and that is such a desperate need 02:58 in our world today in the church and in the world. 03:00 And so we're so glad that you are on that, Rob, 03:03 and I'm so glad personally that each one of you are here. 03:05 Thank you. 03:07 We're gonna be talking today about Codependency. 03:09 We hear that term tossed around a lot 03:12 and sometimes we're kind of fussy on the definition. 03:15 So let's get a definition up right now. 03:17 Codependency is a dysfunctional helping relationship 03:21 where one person supports 03:23 or enables another person's addiction, 03:26 poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, 03:30 or under-achievement. 03:32 So basically, if I'm codependent, 03:35 I need you to stay sick 03:38 because you being sick does something for me 03:42 or I think so anyway. 03:44 So that's the definition of codependency, 03:46 it's a little bit of a scary weird thing 03:48 but what about the prevalence, 03:49 kind of hard to try the prevalence 03:51 with any kind of formal literature. 03:52 But I will say this, I would say 03:54 anywhere we see addiction or dysfunction 03:57 or under functioning or abuse, 04:00 we're gonna have some kind of codependency 04:03 because we were created by God to be in relationship 04:06 and sometimes we don't understand 04:08 how that relationship works, 04:09 so we do the thing that comes naturally 04:11 which is sometimes for some people codependency. 04:15 So codependency is quite prevalent. 04:17 And by the way 04:18 when I used the term dysfunctional, 04:20 I'm not just using psychobabble, 04:22 God created the world to function a certain way. 04:26 He created it by a certain design 04:29 and that design is designed to function a certain way. 04:34 God's laws are basically descriptions of how life works. 04:38 You could look at them that way, anyway, 04:40 and so dysfunction means 04:42 when we're outside 04:43 or out of sync with God's design, 04:45 that's basically what I mean when I say dysfunction. 04:47 Wherever we see dysfunction, 04:49 we probably gonna see more codependency. 04:51 What is the cause of codependency? 04:53 I would say that it is something 04:57 that we develop through, mostly through observation. 05:00 The home of origin, 05:01 we see codependent behaviors, 05:03 our role models are codependent, 05:04 we're gonna think, 05:06 oh, this is just how you handle bad behavior in other people. 05:10 But the good news is that the prognosis is positive. 05:12 Right. 05:14 We can learn better ways of functioning. 05:15 Can I have an amen from my team of therapist. 05:16 Amen. Amen. 05:18 There's hope. There is hope. 05:20 There is always hope in Jesus. 05:21 Hallelujah, amen. 05:23 We're into that. 05:25 So what are some of the treatments? 05:27 I would say groups such as Al-Anon 05:29 and I think you were mentioning... 05:31 Adult Children of Alcoholics. 05:33 Adult Children of Alcoholics which is a broader group, 05:35 it's not just for codependences, 05:37 for all the fall out of growing up 05:38 in addictive home. 05:40 And then CoDA, Co-Dependents Anonymous. 05:41 And then CoDA, Co-Dependents Anonymous, 05:43 so there are several different organizations 05:44 that have groups that can help support us 05:46 through codependency 05:48 and that is part of the prescription, isn't it? 05:50 That's part of how people 05:52 get well is to be with other people 05:53 and they have that accountability 05:55 and at the same time support 05:56 as they move away from an unhealthy pattern. 05:58 So what things have you guys used 06:00 in your practice to help people overcome codependency? 06:05 I go into a teaching mode 06:08 and education on boundaries is usually where I start. 06:14 I recommend the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud and, 06:19 you know, they have it on a DVD 06:21 where sometimes it's like homework assignment. 06:24 You know, send it home with the client and say please, 06:28 you know, view this or read this book 06:30 and take notes and identify where are your troubled areas 06:35 and what is causing you not to have boundaries 06:38 with this particular people in your life. 06:40 Have you ever had the experience with the book 06:41 Boundaries where people are reading it 06:43 and they get back with you, they are like, 06:45 "I can't believe somebody wrote this. 06:47 They wrote it about me." 06:49 Absolutely. Yes. 06:50 Yeah. All the time. 06:51 Yeah, yeah, it's a very helpful book to a lot of... 06:53 Should have been like required reading 06:55 in high school or middle school. 06:57 I've also found that 06:58 the awareness of boundaries is one thing 07:00 but the implementation of boundaries is totally different 07:02 because we're just not used to doing it 07:04 for people in codependent relationships 07:06 just aren't used to going there. 07:07 Yeah. Yeah. 07:09 Not only are they not used to going there, 07:11 but they are afraid to go there. 07:13 Because if you stop there, 07:14 behavior like you were talking about earlier 07:17 and because if you stopped their behavior 07:19 and then it takes away from me 07:20 because I want to feel that way 07:22 and so that would makes it very difficult to implement. 07:24 What's also interesting about that, 07:26 it's not only does it impact you, 07:27 the codependent but what about the relationship itself. 07:30 Because there will be a shift 07:32 in the dynamics of the relationship 07:34 and sometimes that's really challenging for people. 07:36 If I stop doing what I'm doing 07:37 to support this person the way that I have been, 07:40 then what will happen with us in our relationship dynamic? 07:45 Let me tell you, Nivishi, 07:46 that I've had a client 07:48 who had to go through the stages of grief 07:51 where they got to this realization that 07:53 this relationship was unhealthy, 07:55 they needed to let it go 07:57 and there was a tremendous sense of loss. 07:58 Absolutely. 08:00 So all of a sudden we moved into grief counselor. 08:01 Grief counselor. Yes. 08:03 And it was... 08:04 You got your other hat. Yeah. 08:06 Absolutely. 08:07 Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. 08:08 I also, you talked and you asked about 08:10 what do we prescribe to clients when this is the issue. 08:12 I actually ask them to Google the word codependency. 08:16 I say for homework tonight, before you come back next week, 08:19 Google codependency and read 08:21 and tell me what you find 08:23 when we come back and we'll talk about it, 08:24 and it's amazing the insights 08:27 that they gain as a result of 08:29 simply looking at the definition, 08:32 seeing some of the talk about, what it is and how it works 08:35 and whether or not it's something that is real. 08:39 Lots of good stuff come out of the next counseling session. 08:41 So probably at this moment as you said that some people... 08:44 Are googling it up. 08:45 Googling it right now. Googling about this. 08:46 Probably. 08:48 Jennifer, another definition of codependency is 08:51 an addiction to people pleasing. 08:53 Yeah. That's very precise. 08:55 So if everyone is happy around me, 08:57 I have a sense of control 08:59 and then there I can call myself down, 09:01 they have more peace inside of me. 09:04 I find myself telling people all the time, 09:08 you say you don't want to hurt their feelings 09:11 and this is particularly true of women 09:13 because we are very wired for empathy, 09:15 we feel other people's feelings a lot. 09:17 So I will say, you say 09:18 you don't want to hurt others people's feelings 09:21 and this was a realization for me 09:22 so I don't want to just be 09:23 accusing other people but really, 09:25 like for me I don't want to hurt my own feelings. 09:26 Absolutely. 09:28 Because if I said no to them, 09:30 I was conceded disappointment and I was gonna feel it 09:33 and so in order to escape that feeling on my part, 09:37 I was pleasing them like you said 09:39 addicted to people pleasing. 09:40 Well, I'm gonna say 09:42 what's behind that I can't say no, 09:47 I'm always saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 09:51 There must be something behind as a boy. 09:52 Well, I think as Christians though 09:55 there is a lot of codependent behavior 09:57 because we think it's the Christian thing 09:59 to do unfortunately. 10:01 Okay, give an example. 10:02 So if as a Christian it is my responsibility 10:05 to be my brother's keeper. 10:07 Be nice. 10:09 And as a part, 10:10 nice I'll be my brother's keeper 10:12 it's to give and to do and to say yes all the time 10:16 because that's what a Christian does. 10:19 If I say no, 10:21 then what does that mean about me and my Christianity? 10:23 And how will that look to my brother or sister 10:26 at the church if I say no 10:28 and so I get into the habit of always saying yes 10:31 because I think that's the Christian thing to do. 10:34 Let me give a scenario, okay, 10:36 there is a strong leader in the ministry 10:38 and that strong leader is extremely ambitious 10:40 and they're always setting these goals. 10:42 The person is very charismatic 10:43 and they're able to just command respect from people 10:46 and everybody wants to please, 10:47 it's just kind of a natural, 10:49 certain people you just want their approval. 10:51 And so this leader, great person, 10:54 great ideas, brilliant, creative person 10:57 but they set goals that are unrealistic 10:59 that burn people out. 11:01 And those people working with that person 11:04 in order to say no 11:07 have to not only disappoint the leader 11:09 whose approval they craved so desperately 11:12 but they have to seem not spiritual. 11:14 Wow. 11:16 So, you know, you are saying like codependency 11:19 can really cloak itself in religiosity... 11:22 Absolutely. Very, very easily. 11:24 Absolutely. 11:25 And that's why we as Christian therapist 11:27 need to be on guard against it 11:28 and helping other people understand 11:31 what we're talking about. 11:32 One of the issues, Jen, 11:33 that you just maybe think about is, 11:35 I like to try to get the client 11:37 who is in this type of relationship to think, 11:40 okay what will happen 11:42 if this relationship is no longer there. 11:43 In other words are they so dependent 11:45 on the relationship 11:46 that they will start to have dysfunctional... 11:50 dysfunction in other areas. 11:52 And then that helps to bridge me to, 11:54 well, who really is our savior. 11:55 Absolutely. 11:56 Are we dependent so much on this relationship 11:58 that this is our savior, that's why I try to go there. 12:02 Could it be the kind of the spiritual core 12:05 of codependency is a type of idolatry 12:07 where we put a relationship in place of God 12:09 and don't we all have to be willing? 12:13 I mean, I'm being careful here 12:15 that willing to say goodbye to a human relationship 12:18 if it gets in between us and God. 12:20 Absolutely. Yeah. 12:21 Being more concerned about 12:22 what does God think about me than worrying about 12:26 what the other person thinks about me. 12:28 If I have, if I set this boundary 12:31 what's gonna happen in the relationship? 12:32 Yeah. 12:33 And I think the easiest way 12:35 to talk to clients about this is to say, 12:37 the goal is to have your insides match your outsides. 12:42 What do you mean by that? 12:44 Meaning you stamp on my foot and I smile and go, 12:48 "Happy Sabbath, thank you. 12:50 I'm so glad to see you." 12:53 In the mean time you keep stamping on my foot 12:55 and I keep smiling and everything's great. 13:00 So the inside is not matching the outside. 13:01 You have a heart attack. 13:03 You know, so I mean but we see this 13:07 and we wonder why church isn't a safer place perhaps. 13:11 Yeah. 13:13 Because people are afraid to be congruent 13:15 with what they're really feeling inside. 13:17 Now we have to go with appropriateness... 13:19 You can't just be blabbing your emotions 13:21 and your problems all over the place 13:24 but there is a place for being authentic. 13:27 Okay, so if I offend you, you know, somehow 13:29 and before your church, okay. 13:31 Okay. 13:32 And it hurts your feelings, instead of thank you, you know, 13:36 what can you do? 13:37 Well, read Matthew 18, it says, "Go and talk it out." 13:41 So right in that movement, could you say to me, 13:43 "Ouch" or what, would you do? 13:45 If you had some good practice with it... 13:47 But you might have to go, you know... 13:48 I might have to go back. 13:50 The next day of course... 13:51 And for the codependent person typically 13:53 there is a lack of bit awareness 13:55 that they have at the onsets... 13:56 All right. 13:58 The need for the behavior change and it's okay, 13:59 it's not in the moment, so he guesses what's going on. 14:01 Thank you for... 14:03 This is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm hearing. 14:04 It's okay because the process goes on to say, okay, 14:07 the level of awareness needs to be heightened 14:08 in order for change to be enacted. 14:10 And so if I can first see that there is an issue... 14:14 Then I can then make a change to the issue that is at play. 14:18 Yeah. 14:20 You are about to say. 14:21 Oh, no, well, I just want to piggy back on that. 14:24 You saying I have to make the change 14:26 but what I'm hearing is that 14:28 there is an inability to make the change. 14:29 Yes. 14:31 And there is something missing. Yes. 14:32 And from what I'm hearing and of course, 14:35 this is what I do with my clients is that 14:38 God must be missing on the inside 14:41 and that we have a cup here and it's now it's half empty. 14:45 What I find is that with codependent people is that 14:48 the cup is empty and is that love cup 14:51 and that love is God, 14:53 and so somehow we have to help them 14:55 tap into the source of love and that is God. 14:58 Can they always tap into the source of love 15:01 while they're in that codependent relationship? 15:03 Could it be that they... 15:05 Sometimes the breakdown of that relationship can make room. 15:09 Is it always an exact process where fill up with God 15:11 and then you'll be able to have boundaries, 15:12 or it's sometimes like kind of both? 15:15 It depends on the individual and yes, you know, it's, 15:17 you know, it's both... 15:18 Yeah, yup, we all have wounds and so our cup has holes in it. 15:22 Yeah. 15:23 And I think our job as counselors is to look, 15:26 you know, in a gentle kind loving way at 15:29 what needs to be patched up 15:30 so that when it gets filled it's teasing there. 15:33 Yes. 15:34 And I like that word that you used earlier practice. 15:36 Yeah. 15:37 Because I literally have to practice 15:39 with my clients and role play, 15:41 what it sounds like to them to actually say no 15:44 and for the fun of it I told one of my client 15:46 just in a fun way say no to anything, 15:50 everybody for 24 hours 15:52 and he had a blast doing it because he wasn't used to, 15:56 but he came back after that 24 hours and said... 15:57 With no friends. 15:59 That felt pretty good. He said that was good. 16:00 So it's the process as a Christian counselor, 16:03 it's a process of teaching them 16:05 and once again I'm saying process 16:06 because it takes time, 16:07 teaching them how to abide in Christ. 16:10 Amen. Right? 16:11 Abiding in divine. Right. 16:12 And Jesus said, let your yes be yes 16:15 and your no be no. 16:18 But women look at codependency 16:19 that relationship starts with our self though. 16:23 If we think about the fact that 16:25 I am having a hard time 16:27 with personal inconsistencies in my life, 16:30 I sometimes will have problems with inconsistencies 16:33 in my relationships with those around me. 16:36 So if I learn to love me and trust me, 16:42 I can learn to love 16:44 and have healthy interesting relationships with others. 16:46 Yeah. 16:48 And so have relationships that look more healthy 16:51 versus those who are dependent and who are codependent. 16:54 Takes a while to get there to love one so. 16:56 Absolutely. That's for sure. 16:57 Absolutely. In the right way. 16:58 You might have played. 17:00 Self, the wrong kind of self love is all too 17:01 abundant in nature, 17:03 but there is a self respect that we need to have, 17:07 where we have a relationship of accountability... 17:09 Yes. 17:10 But also, you know, respect for ourselves, 17:14 I mean there's really no better way to say 17:15 or you hold yourself accountable 17:16 but you also respect yourself. 17:18 So go ahead and get into the presenting problem, Rob. 17:21 And how in the world can we ever obey 17:22 that second commandment to love others, if we're not, 17:24 don't know how to respect ourselves. 17:26 Absolutely. Yes. 17:27 Okay, so here's the case study, 17:28 19 year old of Swiss descent Laura 17:32 comes to counseling at the request 17:33 of her Australian boyfriend Karl 17:36 who has taken a corporate position in the States. 17:39 Laura's father is a professional 17:40 at a college in Switzerland 17:42 and her mother stays home with her four other children. 17:46 Karl reports that Laura is too emotional. 17:49 He spend several sessions with her 17:51 and she shares with you the struggles 17:53 that she has when Karl treats her badly. 17:56 Karl is 30 years old, 17:58 has a high powered job in a big corporation 18:01 and is an elder at the local church. 18:03 You learned that Karl has convinced Laura 18:05 that her family cannot be trusted 18:07 and that very few church members are saved. 18:11 She has few relationships 18:13 and those that she does has 18:15 Karl describes as dysfunctional. 18:17 After several sessions you tell Laura 18:19 that she is not too emotional 18:21 that her reactions to Karl's criticisms 18:23 and control are normal. 18:25 So where do you go next 18:27 and by the way Karl is paying for the sessions. 18:30 Find somebody else to pay for the sessions. 18:33 Seriously. There's a start. 18:34 Conjoint sessions... 18:36 Yeah. 18:37 Yeah, and... 18:38 Or a collateral, 18:40 I would encourage Karl to come in 18:41 on behalf of his girlfriend who he think needs help 18:46 and tell me the story... 18:47 Yeah. 18:49 And get him to share, 18:51 why are you paying for counseling 18:52 and what do you hope she gets out of it? 18:54 Yeah. 18:56 You know, and find out what's really going on. 18:59 And what if he tells you, you have to fix my wife. 19:02 Girlfriend. 19:04 Girlfriend, girlfriend. 19:05 Read the book Boundaries first 19:09 and then I'll see you in a couple of weeks. 19:10 And then he says no, you fix here. 19:12 For a conjoint session. 19:13 Do you guys see a formula for a setup for abuse here? 19:17 Absolutely. Absolutely, control. 19:19 There is an extreme power imbalance... 19:20 Control. 19:21 And he is quite a bit older and they're young, you know, 19:23 as you get older the age gap kind of closes a little bit, 19:26 they're young so the age gap is very large. 19:28 He is also... 19:30 There is a charisma gap, you know, 19:31 he is a stronger personality, 19:33 she is also not in her home of where, 19:35 she is not in her land of origin, 19:37 she is overseas, 19:38 so she is in foreign territory... 19:40 And probably dependent on him for a lot of things. 19:42 Depended on him apparently financially 19:45 and he is critical of her 19:47 and not only that 19:48 but he is kind of cutting her off from her relationships 19:53 by belittling and pathologizing the relationships... 19:56 Look what he's done to her world? 19:57 Exactly. 19:59 At home, at church he is elder, 20:00 he is a big corporate man and so he has locked her in, 20:03 he has locked her in. 20:05 And the first thing I would suspect seeing that 20:07 from this vantage point 20:09 having experience something like this, 20:11 not for myself but with the client, 20:13 the first thing I would ask is, is there abuse going on here. 20:15 Absolutely. 20:16 Yeah, in a little probing... 20:18 And it's not always physical abuse. 20:19 Right. Yeah. 20:21 It could be other kinds. Yeah. 20:22 Yes, exactly. 20:23 And show that power wheel that comes with that. 20:26 What do you mean by power wheel? 20:29 In domestic violence they have 20:31 in recovery for domestic violence 20:32 they have a wheel that shows the culmination of power 20:38 and control before it becomes physical. 20:41 So to have the, 20:44 the red flags to build and recognize them, 20:46 you know, we can as therapist look at this synapses and say, 20:50 whoa, red flags 20:51 but how do we teach Laura to see them 20:54 for what they really are. 20:55 What they really are. Yeah. 20:57 What would you guys say to her? 20:58 I was gonna say one of the ways 20:59 that we can get her to see that, 21:01 to have that awareness is just what we saw here 21:03 giving her the permission to be able to say, 21:06 you know, it's not, you're not being too emotional. 21:08 And it's okay to not, 21:12 to go against those criticisms 21:13 and control that does not feel normal 21:15 because she hasn't, 21:17 she has been locked into this relationship where it's... 21:19 She hasn't had the permission to say, 21:22 I don't like this, this doesn't feel good. 21:24 So coming into the counseling relationship 21:26 or start to raise that awareness as you say. 21:28 And psycho education, 21:29 it sounds like it'll be really important for Laura 21:32 to just give her information about 21:34 what may be a healthy relationship 21:36 dynamic looks like. 21:37 Right. 21:39 Give her information and letting her tell her story. 21:41 Then she tell her story and you're listening, 21:42 you can point out some things 21:44 one by one of what you are seeing, 21:47 then ask her questions considering those things, 21:48 so I found that in counseling, 21:51 if you allow the person to talk 21:53 and then you repeat what they're saying, 21:55 and see this is what I'm hearing... 21:56 I love that. 21:58 They start to see this picture. 21:59 Absolutely. 22:00 It will be interesting to look at her family of origin. 22:02 Her father is a professor, 22:04 her mom stay at home with the children 22:06 to find out what those dynamics may have looked like? 22:08 What she has seen growing up that may have influenced 22:12 or is influencing her choices 22:14 surrounding her relationship with Karl at this time. 22:16 Yeah. 22:18 And it doesn't say so, I don't think 22:19 but you kind of wonder 22:21 what the relationships are like with the family 22:23 and if he is pathologizing 22:24 all the relationships in her life, 22:25 maybe he is succeeding in kind of cutting her off 22:27 from her family which may be dysfunctional 22:30 and there may be some baggage there, 22:32 but they may also be her lifeline. 22:33 Out of a really unhealthy situation. 22:35 And like you are saying, bringing him in... 22:37 Yes. Yeah. 22:39 Can possibly, potentially help with that 22:41 because you at the council 22:42 who have questions for him as well. 22:44 Sure. 22:45 Nivishi, don't you use a model with some clients in terms of, 22:48 it's a glorified family treaty but it is called a... 22:51 Genogram. Genogram, yes. 22:53 I wonder how you know that, Rob? 22:55 Real? Yes. 22:56 I do know. I do use a genogram. 22:58 And what does it help to do when we're taking about it? 23:00 You tell me about that Rob, what is that... 23:01 No, because I was your student. 23:04 This is what happens 23:05 when you get a bunch of therapists at one table? 23:06 Yeah. 23:08 But, yeah genogram is a... 23:09 I think many of us are familiar with our family tree 23:12 but in genogram in and of itself 23:13 looks more in depth at the dynamics 23:16 within the family system. 23:17 And so you can track and trace 23:19 whatever health or disease 23:23 may be a part of the family system 23:24 through the genorgram 23:26 and that helps to give insights... 23:27 It's a visual... 23:28 What you guys got going here, 23:30 it's some kind of like duel going on. 23:32 She was one time a professor of mine and I had... 23:34 And I taught, 23:36 one of the projects I gave you, Rob, 23:37 was to do a genogram and so you, yes. 23:39 But the beauty of it is you have that 23:40 visual right there and the awareness... 23:42 The insight. 23:43 Oh, my goodness I can see the generational patterns 23:46 coming down to me. 23:47 Okay. 23:48 And all of a sudden, this is why I am, 23:50 this is the way my brother is or whatever. 23:51 Yeah. 23:53 Now we sense some codependency. 23:54 No. 23:56 Dysfunction. Healthy relationships. 23:58 Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. 24:00 But what would you do 24:01 'cause to me I think the best way 24:03 to help her out of an unhealthy attachment, 24:06 if you do come to the conclusion 24:07 after your discussion with him in the session, 24:10 you come to the conclusion, this is really toxic, 24:12 this girl needs to move on. 24:15 How do you get her connected, she is in foreign country, 24:17 she hasn't have any friends around, 24:19 he pathologizes her, 24:20 how you get her connected to some one, 24:21 'cause me that would be like essential is like some 24:23 relationship... 24:25 I say recommending one of those Al-Anon groups 24:26 we talked about maybe 24:28 a wonderful place for her to start. 24:29 If she starts going to CoDA 24:31 or Al-Anon or one of those groups. 24:33 And if she can't get to a meeting because she is, 24:36 you know, stuck because he is the only 24:38 transportation or... 24:39 Yeah. 24:41 I mean we don't know are they living together, 24:42 they were just a little bit more information to gather, 24:46 but if she can't get out on her own, she could go online, 24:51 there are telephone conference meetings people can call into. 24:55 I think, Jen, you have one. 24:56 Absolutely free conference support group. 24:57 Yeah. 24:59 So leading her to find resources to help her. 25:01 Yes, connecting to resource is essential I think. 25:03 Absolutely. 25:04 Getting her used to feel having other relationships. 25:06 Could another step be resources, 25:09 connecting her to resources 25:10 and finding a way to help her to connect Christ? 25:13 Yes, of course. Connecting to Jesus. 25:15 That's one resource. Yeah, that's one resource. 25:18 Finding her identity in Christ, her position in Christ, 25:21 her power in Christ. 25:22 That's right. 25:23 And this is at the heart of what a codependency 25:25 relationship is lacking is to have Jesus 25:28 as the part are the one who we are really dependent on. 25:32 Fully dependent on. 25:33 As opposed to fully dependent, as opposed to a relationship. 25:35 Finding my significance in Jesus. 25:37 Correct. That's it. 25:38 That's right, your primary significance in Jesus, I agree, 25:40 amen. Very good. 25:42 Okay, summarize for us, Rob. 25:43 All right. 25:45 What have we covered? Yeah. 25:46 What has been done? 25:47 Yeah, we touched on goods things here... 25:49 Helpful. 25:50 So we are talking about the need for educating 25:51 especially on boundaries 25:53 and you mentioned the excellent source is 25:54 a book called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. 25:56 They also have other books Boundaries on Marriage, 25:58 Boundaries with Teens. 26:00 So we need to raise that heightened awareness 26:03 of what is going on as codependent relationship. 26:06 Identify areas of weakness, we talked about. 26:11 So if we can't educate, 26:13 they can be educating themselves 26:15 in between as mentioned Google codependency 26:17 and they can come back with the plethora of knowledge. 26:19 Absolutely. 26:20 People pleasing is a tendency here 26:22 and that usually means that 26:24 there is control issues going on, 26:26 either being control or the need to control another. 26:30 As Christians we have to think about how to say no 26:33 instead of yes all the time. 26:35 Sometimes we just have to practice that 26:37 because idolatry can come into place, 26:40 idolatry is putting another person in place of God. 26:44 Yeah. Ahead of God. 26:48 Talked about awareness, let see here change happens, 26:51 I like this, David, you said change happens 26:55 when God is the source of love. 26:58 So we really need to move to scripture. 27:01 Check for abuse as one of the first steps 27:04 that we need to be going to, 27:06 emotion abuse, physical abuse, 27:08 continued to educate 27:10 what a healthy relationship looks like, 27:12 and also the need to bring the family origin 27:14 into the picture to see, 27:16 well, okay, 27:18 so what are the roots of some of this 27:19 or some of this model. 27:20 Was this the way it was, 27:22 was this the pattern that's coming down 27:23 and a genogram could be a wonderful tool 27:25 for this type of awareness. 27:27 And also we can't ever underestimate support groups, 27:31 support groups are wonderful. 27:33 So here's the promise for Laura from Isaiah 43:19 it says, 27:37 "Behold, I am doing a new thing, 27:39 now it springs forth, you not perceive it. 27:42 I will make a way in the wilderness 27:44 and rivers in the desert." 27:45 Thank you for joining us 27:47 for this program A Multitude of Counselors. 27:50 If you need help, cry out to Jesus 27:53 and find a good Christian counselor, 27:54 and hope to see you next time. 27:56 May God bless you abundantly. |
Revised 2016-10-31