Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Robert Davison (Host), Christina Ceccoto, Dee Casper, Dr. Jean Wright II, Paul Coneff
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000014A
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00:26 Welcome to: A Multitude of Counselors
00:29 where we face and embrace the truth 00:32 because the truth heals. 00:34 We're going to be talking today 00:36 about healing from a broken home. 00:39 So many are affected by divorce, 00:41 in fact, I would say that 00:44 there are a couple of different kinds of divorce... 00:46 one is obviously the legal dissolution of a marriage 00:49 but I think there are many couples 00:51 that are estranged from one another 00:53 and remain legally intact, 00:55 at any rate, divorce is harmful 00:58 especially to the children affected by it. 01:01 In fact, about half of children in America 01:04 will see their parents' divorce 01:07 and what we find in the research is that 01:10 these divorces are correlated with much harm 01:13 that comes to children, 01:15 for instance, children tend to face more poverty 01:17 when they've been through parental divorce. 01:19 Children from divorced homes tend to have 01:22 more mental health and physical health problems, 01:26 they tend to have poor academics, 01:28 they tend to suffer more financially 01:30 in many, many ways... children struggle... 01:32 we think because of divorce 01:34 now, I'm not saying this 01:35 to make individuals that have divorced 01:38 feel any more guilty than they probably already feel, 01:40 I'm saying this because we want to come alongside these children 01:44 we want to come alongside these adult children 01:47 who have suffered because their parents divorced 01:49 and we want to tell them, "We love you... " 01:51 and we want to share with them 01:53 opportunities for healing 01:54 and so, in order to do that, we're going to be talking to 01:58 Dee Casper today, 02:00 so I want to introduce my guest and my panel... 02:03 I have Dee Casper who is going to be our guest today 02:06 talking about coming from a broken home 02:07 and how he coped with that 02:09 and I want to introduce our therapist today. 02:12 Paul Coneff, is a Marriage and Family Therapist, 02:15 we've got Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia 02:18 and we've got Professional Counselor, Christina Cecotto. 02:22 So, Dee... tell us what happened. 02:27 So, when I was about 3 or 4, my parents got divorced, 02:31 my mom had been divorced once before then 02:33 and she had a difficult upbringing... 02:36 as far as intimacy in the home from her mother's... 02:38 had a biological mother that left her 02:40 and then, her adopted mother who married her father... 02:43 just never really felt loved and nurtured from her. 02:47 So there's a lot of damage in her life, okay. 02:49 Yes, so that kind of led to 02:51 looking for things in her spouses 02:52 that she wasn't going to find, 02:54 that she didn't receive from her parents 02:56 so, she was divorced once, had a son with her first husband 02:59 they were divorced, the father got custody 03:01 so she was without the son... 03:03 and she married my dad, 03:04 my dad was the caretaker for my great-grandfather 03:07 who had Alzheimer's... 03:08 that's a very difficult environment to be in 03:10 as newlyweds and... with a young child 03:12 plus the battles that she was facing in other things 03:15 and so she eventually left, 03:17 the third husband she had... 03:18 she's actually been married and divorced seven times total 03:21 but the third husband she had after my dad... 03:24 she had a severe, severe encounter with domestic abuse, 03:28 I don't know how many times it occurred 03:31 but there was one really, really, really brutal one and... 03:36 How did you find out about it? 03:37 So my grandfather... my dad's dad 03:39 lived about a mile or two from where she lived 03:41 in the Government Projects, 03:42 Government... subsidized housing or whatever 03:46 and he dropped me off... 03:48 because she didn't have custody... 03:49 and she would tell you that was in my best interest too 03:51 but... so I was visiting my grandparents 03:54 and since I was near where mom was... they dropped me off 03:55 and when she opened the door, she was purple... 03:57 she's swollen... she's blue... 03:59 she's not the person I know 04:00 and she told me at that time that she fell down the stairs, 04:03 you know, that she just tripped and fell, 04:05 my grandfather wasn't stupid he called the cops immediately 04:08 and the guy was taken off to prison 04:10 and I never saw him again... from then 04:14 but the divorce and then this... 04:17 and the last main trigger where... 04:20 my mom's cousin was one who was really big in like, 04:23 horror movies and scary movies 04:25 and alien and Freddy Krueger and all kinds of... 04:28 Jurassic Park and other things, 04:29 as a young mind... that's already feeling scared 04:32 because of what I saw, 04:33 I didn't see it happen to mom but I saw the after-effects 04:36 and as a child... I knew... still knew... 04:39 Did you know consciously 04:40 or did you just sort of know unconsciously 04:43 and later realized what had happened to mom... 04:45 I don't remember the length of time 04:47 on when she told me what really happened, 04:48 I don't think it was too terribly long... 04:50 but I know that internally there was fear... for sure... 04:53 something happened that I knew something was wrong, 04:55 this wasn't that mom had an accident, 04:57 even as a child... as a five-year-old... 04:59 I knew something... didn't know how to communicate it, 05:03 didn't know how to phrase it, 05:04 or didn't know how to wrap my mind around it 05:06 but I was certainly aware that something had happened 05:09 but whenever my mom would be doing some college classes, 05:11 I'd be with her cousin and... 05:12 watching all these terrifying movies as a very small child, 05:15 I just... I kind of had this... 05:17 the cards kind of stacked against me 05:19 in a sense of... a lot of things to bring a lot of fear, 05:21 a lot of feelings of being unloved, 05:24 a lot of feelings of rejection and just... 05:27 it caused a lot of difficulty for me, 05:29 certainly whenever I... from that point forward 05:31 of... fear has kind of been one of the big underlying situations 05:35 that I have kind of better tied it to 05:37 because, "Am I going to be rejected, 05:39 am I going to be in danger, am I safe, 05:41 am I loved, am I nurtured?" 05:43 My mom, in my upbringing from then on... 05:46 I felt more like a parent to her than she was to me, 05:48 I felt like she was kind of using me to feel normal 05:51 because I was something that was innocent 05:54 and I didn't have the battles that she was having 05:56 but was starting to receive 05:58 the fruits of the battle that she was having, 06:00 I don't think she fully knew that at the time, 06:02 but... so when would be clinging or other things, 06:05 I just felt like I didn't want that... 06:07 I was starved for intimacy but I didn't want the way 06:09 that she was trying to show me intimacy either 06:12 because, again, I just felt used at the time 06:14 and even as a child... 06:15 I couldn't wrap my mind around that fully... 06:17 looking back I know that that's what it was... 06:19 but at that time, I just... didn't... 06:20 You don't even have the words to describe 06:23 what was going on, yeah... 06:24 And shouldn't really, you're not... 06:26 my mental faculties aren't there to a point 06:28 that should be able to process it, 06:30 so that was a lot of what happened with my upbringing, 06:32 I was a latchkey kid... my dad was a single parent 06:35 and he married once again... 06:38 just thinking that he needed a woman in the house for me... 06:40 it just wasn't a good fit, 06:42 I didn't get along with the kids and with her, really, 06:44 either admit to that and did... 06:46 and so he would have to work to provide for the home 06:48 so I had a lot of unsupervised time 06:50 and so things I ended up doing 06:52 as a response to the fear that I was feeling 06:55 and a lack of power... 06:57 a lack of control... was that... 06:58 I started stealing at the age of five... 07:00 like, I was stealing toys and things from stores 07:02 and who's going to suspect a kid 07:04 and it was just because it was a way for me to be in control 07:07 and I could get something I wanted... 07:09 to make me feel good and I didn't have any money 07:10 so that was just the way that I did it 07:12 and lying a lot... 07:14 and I realize looking back again... 07:15 that both of those were means for me 07:17 just trying to feel in control, 07:18 to feel safe... that I'm not going to be disappointed again, 07:21 I can control the circumstances 07:23 so that I won't end up being hurt 07:24 and then they eventually diagnosed me 07:27 when I was in School... 07:28 because I was sharpening my pencil all the time 07:29 and just couldn't sit still... because all the internal things, 07:33 I didn't know it at the time but they put me on Ritalin... 07:35 What did they diagnose you with? 07:37 ADD... 07:38 Oh, ADD... okay... sharpening your pencil all the time... 07:41 that wasn't OCD... or...? 07:42 Or do you kind of have both? 07:43 I just hated school... 07:45 I just wanted any excuse to get up and get out. 07:47 Looking back, I do see that the Ritalin... 07:49 the OCD in my experience too for sure, 07:52 just... you know... 07:54 being more attentive about things 07:56 you don't really need to be that attentive... 07:58 you know... things like that... 07:59 I still wrestle... "Did I locked my car or not?" 08:01 Like, even though I know 08:02 I locked my car... just... things like that... 08:03 I still see some side effects of that 08:05 but those were things that came into my experience 08:07 and I can look back now and realize 08:08 that that was tied to my interactions as a kid. 08:11 So there are a lot of lenses 08:12 through which we can look at this situation, 08:14 one of them is... I like brain science 08:16 and your Amygdala 08:18 which is the emotional part of your brain 08:20 and the one that really mediates fear 08:21 is basically assaulted by all of these traumatic events 08:25 but then, in addition to that, which is often the case, 08:28 you don't have those stabilizing bonds in your life 08:31 that help calm the emotional system 08:34 and as a result, you're just in overdrive mode for years. 08:37 That was exactly it, that I didn't... 08:39 my dad did what he could 08:41 and he had been in an environment 08:42 that wasn't the easiest either from one of his parents... 08:45 it was just... he didn't really receive all the nurturing 08:48 that he could have received 08:49 and so neither of my... 08:50 and neither of them really grew up 08:52 having strong spiritual experiences themselves 08:55 so neither were really equipped to give me what I needed 08:58 in that sense... 08:59 I didn't know about love languages at that stage 09:01 and how it worked, obviously, 09:02 looking back I saw that the 09:04 things that my heart was wired for, 09:05 I wasn't receiving as much 09:07 so just feeling deprived of intimacy 09:10 and even the extended family... 09:12 there wasn't a lot of intimacy there, 09:13 cordial... friendly... but not intimate... 09:16 and so I was running to whatever I could 09:18 to find some of those voids to be filled. 09:20 Have you been able to revisit this 09:21 now that you're an adult 09:23 and you have connected the dots between these events 09:25 and how they affected you... 09:26 were you ever able to go to your mother, for instance, 09:30 and say... you know... 09:32 as... after my conversion, 09:33 my dad realized that he has a need for something more, 09:36 9... 11... woke him up and he had an encounter with God 09:39 and he started loving me into a relationship with God 09:42 which is what I had been looking for all along... 09:44 all the things I didn't feel like I received... 09:46 I was getting even more of at that time 09:49 I was being pointed to God 09:50 so basically God found me and brought me to Himself 09:52 through a relationship I was going through with my dad 09:55 so, I grew that bond... 09:57 but with my mom, I didn't really have the... 09:58 we would have time together but like that sense of bond... no... 10:01 till I was about 27 once I was working in ministry 10:04 and I had forgiven my mother but God convicted me 10:07 that I needed to tell her that I forgave her 10:09 and so, after her 7th divorce, 10:13 she went to go live with her parents, 10:14 and by the grace of God, 10:16 Jesus is the 8th husband, by-the-way... 10:17 she's found God... she had a relationship with Jesus 10:20 and she's finding what she didn't find before 10:22 so, in this encounter with her, 10:25 I was a 27-year-old, I think, in 2013... 10:27 and I sat her down, I said, 10:30 "These are the things that I have wrestled with in my life 10:32 and they were directly tied to the exposures I had 10:35 as a child... with you... 10:36 and the things that you exposed me to 10:38 but I want you to know that I forgive you... " 10:41 and in that moment, we cried together 10:43 and we prayed together 10:45 and I gained them all... for the first time in my life 10:47 as a 27-year-old man. 10:48 Because like... awww... that's so beautiful. 10:51 Like, we often... as counselors, like... 10:53 try to encourage those kinds of conversations... 10:56 our clients come... they've really been damaged... 10:59 for instance, in their homes... 11:00 and we try to encourage those kinds of conversations 11:03 but a lot of times it goes very badly 11:04 so, or... or... it's not even worth trying at all 11:07 because of the lack of responsiveness 11:09 on the part of the other so you... 11:10 you were able to have a successful conversation... 11:14 healing conversation with your mother 11:15 which you feel... you said like you've gained a mother. 11:18 Yeah, it changed everything 11:20 and one of the immediate things that came as a result of that 11:22 was that she started writing letters to everyone in her life 11:24 ex-husbands... people that she had hurt... 11:26 to try to make things right 11:28 and so, it was a dramatic change in her... 11:31 in fact, she's already starting to want to come to God, 11:33 she realized that was the missing component 11:36 but to have this... really was the platform 11:38 that opened everything for her. 11:39 So, obviously that wasn't the end of the story 11:43 because when you have an assault 11:45 on the emotional system like that when you're so young, 11:48 often we wrestle with it into our adult years 11:52 and now you're functioning... you're up and running... 11:54 but was it really gone, was everything really fixed 11:57 or did you need more help? 11:58 I thought it was... I told people for years... 12:01 I was working in ministry about my upbringing 12:03 and that it had never bothered me. 12:05 I was fully convinced of this for years 12:07 and about 14- to 15-months ago, 12:10 Paul here actually was doing a program 12:13 with someone else at 3ABN 12:17 and a friend of mine had told me to read his book 2 years earlier 12:19 in the summer... and I thought, "Ehhh... " 12:22 I know some other people that have problems 12:24 I may read it for them... because I assumed 12:26 that I'm in ministry to help people 12:28 with their problems, I don't have problems, 12:29 I'm here to help them with their problems... 12:30 Paul: You're the only one that does that... 12:32 Dee: Yeah, I'm sure... it was just me... 12:34 Paul: None of us have ever fallen into that trap... 12:37 Dee: And so, in my situation, I didn't read the book 12:39 and God, in His mercy, didn't give up on me 12:42 and so, a mutual friend of ours 12:44 told me that Paul was coming to 3ABN... 12:46 my ministry is located right next door... 12:47 and I said, "Yeah, have him come over... " 12:49 and one of the things that Paul talked about... 12:51 he went kind of quickly through what he does 12:54 and it took a while for me to wrap my mind around it 12:57 even though I'm a Bible student 12:59 and when I had that situation, it ended up having me... 13:01 what happened to me was, 13:04 he said that all the addictions that we have in our experience 13:06 are us trying to numb pain that we're feeling in our lives 13:08 and it was like the most profound thing 13:10 I'd ever heard in my life 13:12 I knew immediately that whatever this guy is talking about, 13:14 is what I've been looking for my whole life, 13:15 I don't know what it means, 13:17 I don't understand it but I know that this is what I need, 13:19 and as I was traveling out east, 13:22 I was listening to the YouTube videos that he'd produced, 13:24 and it was like someone yanked back the shower curtain 13:27 and I saw a "Dee" that I did not know existed 13:30 for 25 out of my 30 years. 13:32 Never knew... and I started to realize 13:35 the deep wounds that I had and the needs that I had 13:37 and so, the question I had was, 13:39 "Well, if all addictions and things 13:40 come from pain that we're feeling, 13:42 where is the pain?" 13:44 And God took me back to Ground Zero 13:46 and all the strongholds that were existing in my experience 13:48 started around the same time when I was five... 13:51 whenever mom got roughed up by that guy... 13:53 and it just kind of bubbled from there... 13:55 so that was... that was my "ah ha" moment 13:58 and it began the process of me digging deeper, 14:00 Paul and I have prayed together with some of my story, 14:02 I read his book... and this has helped me to better understand 14:06 who I am... my true identity in Jesus... 14:08 and I know that Jesus could relate 14:09 to what I had gone through 14:11 and it carried my shame, He carried my fear, my guilt... 14:14 anything... to death on the cross 14:16 and rose again to give me a new identity in Jesus 14:18 and it's been life-changing for me, 14:20 I've spent my ministry committing... 14:21 to telling that message now for the last year-and-a-half 14:24 to young people with brokenness... 14:25 Powerful, so guys, weigh in... what do you think? 14:28 I know you've been very 14:29 intimately involved in this situation 14:31 and what do you think? Give us your thoughts. 14:35 You're talking a lot about the fears 14:37 and we want to honor those 14:38 and the shame and the guilt... those are feelings... 14:40 and that's important... 14:42 and for me... Jesus said, 14:43 "Out of the heart come sinful thoughts... 14:44 Satan is the father of lies... " 14:46 so, if we can deal with those negative thoughts 14:48 behind the feelings and behaviors... 14:49 then I think we can get more healing 14:51 and that's where... I think... 14:53 to me... when you're bringing in Jesus... 14:55 suffering... being tempted... going... 14:57 he has gone through what he has gone through... 14:59 with fear and shame... 15:00 Jesus was alone, abandoned, betrayed, abused, 15:02 tempted and that was pain, 15:04 where I find the power is, 15:05 it's an easy way to build a bridge 15:07 from Jesus' story... to his story... 15:08 He was tempted without sin, 15:10 yet He was tempted that way to identify with him 15:12 and it makes Him more "a personal Jesus. " 15:14 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... 15:15 So, I have a question for you Dee, 15:16 I'm wondering... "How did you practically 15:20 regain that new identity in Christ?" 15:23 The first was to know that Jesus could relate to me... 15:25 what those specific things were 15:27 and then how to receive the healing that Christ earned 15:30 by being tempted in the same way and succeeding 15:33 and so, Paul, basically has a prayer ministry 15:36 where he teaches people how to, kind of, 15:38 compose a prayer, kind of... write a prayer 15:40 based upon their experience, 15:42 how has Jesus gone through something similar 15:44 so what lies... what thoughts go through your mind... 15:47 of your particular struggles 15:50 and then he puts actions... what are actions... 15:52 or what are events that happen in Jesus' life, 15:54 where He would be tempted to have those same thoughts 15:57 and then, you begin learning a process 15:59 of how to pray Christ's experience into yours... 16:02 and I remember, one of the things... 16:04 that you talked about in your book, 16:05 or at least that God kind of made application for... 16:08 from what I read in the book 16:09 was envisioning God being there 16:12 and Jesus being beside you in those moments 16:14 where you were freed... and where you were hurt... 16:16 and I remember, 16:18 I found a tremendous amount of healing in a moment... 16:19 after seeing that. 16:21 So, what's the difference between that and what they call, 16:22 New Age visioning... type of thing? 16:25 Help us understand the difference. 16:27 For me it's a difference between 16:28 Jesus having gone through the experience to identify with us 16:31 which was real and part of history 16:33 as a Christian... we believe that 16:34 versus me trying to imagine something... 16:36 Jennifer: That didn't exist. 16:38 Paul: Like, some people will say, 16:39 "Well, imagine you were abused... 16:40 imagine a strong man came and rescued you... " 16:43 the problem is, there's no rescue. 16:44 Jennifer: There was no strong man. 16:45 Paul: And then they say, "You're the strong man... or woman... " 16:48 well, number one... no... no... no strong... 16:51 if a girl has been abused, no one rescued her... 16:54 and she wasn't strong enough to stop it, 16:55 we're not blaming her, I'm just saying... 16:57 those to me are false... 16:59 we're trying to overcome negative thoughts 17:00 and negative messages, 17:02 with another story that's not true. 17:04 Right, so it's grounded in reality, 17:06 it's not grounded in fantasy. 17:08 Jesus was actually there with me when I went through it 17:11 and so, to find healing in that chapter 17:14 that when I felt unsafe... 17:15 whenever I felt rejected or unloved, 17:17 that actually isn't true 17:18 and to have that redefine my reality... 17:21 based upon something that's Biblically provable, 17:23 was life changing for me and liberating 17:25 that I can tell my story and not feel ashamed anymore. 17:28 Well, for example in Revelation 13, it says, 17:31 "He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... " 17:33 because some people say, 17:34 "Well, He was only abused for a few hours... it was bad... 17:36 it was only a few hours... it was a day... " 17:38 "He's a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world... " 17:40 so somehow as God... 17:42 He took all the abuse... all the abandonment... 17:44 all the betrayal... all the rejection... 17:46 into his suffering, death and resurrection. 17:48 So we want to... 17:49 I don't know that I would use the word, "Visualization" 17:52 because that's not what we... 17:53 It's a trigger word... people are going to pick out 17:55 and think it's "New Age" 17:56 but there's an appropriate use of the imagination 17:58 that's very remedial. 18:00 I would say, "Where in His story did He go through 18:01 similar experiences to identify with me 18:03 so that I would know, 18:05 experientially in my mind and heart, 18:07 which is a new covenant 18:08 not just my head but in my mind and my heart 18:10 He was there with me 18:12 and what does He want me to know about that. " 18:14 This is why, actually it says that Enoch cultivated... 18:18 or some people will pronounce "Enoch" in a different way, 18:21 but... that he cultivated the "presence of God" 18:25 and when I read that, I was just like, 18:26 "Wow! that's really interesting, 18:28 'cultivated the presence of God... '" 18:29 because the presence of God is there... 18:30 I think it's just that we don't... 18:32 we're intentional about remembering, 18:34 "He was right here with us... " 18:35 and we need to make sure that we remember that. 18:38 She said that we should spend a thoughtful hour every day 18:40 thinking about the closing scenes of Christ's life 18:44 using our imagination... 18:45 but the difference is, we're not making it up, 18:49 we're not thinking about Biblical meditation, 18:51 we're thinking about what He went through, 18:54 at every step of His journey to be there with us. 18:56 See, I believe everything that is working in the world, 18:59 has... if it's working... if it's indeed working... 19:02 in a truly therapeutic way has... 19:04 it's traceable back to a Biblical principle, 19:07 so you're talking about being aware of the presence of God, 19:11 they call that "mindfulness" 19:12 but they're mindful of things that aren't Biblically based 19:15 so to me... like the Biblical form of mindfulness 19:18 is way far beyond anything the world can offer, 19:21 so people are really getting a little bit of the fact, 19:24 they can have profound effect 19:26 if they would trace that back to the Biblical principle 19:28 that is at work, 19:30 so, do you, in your work recommend that people 19:34 confront parents 19:37 when they've experienced difficulties 19:39 because of their parents... do you run across any of this 19:41 and are there times when people shouldn't 19:43 and times when they should? 19:44 Absolutely, Jennifer, I think it's very important 19:47 that people... first before going to confront a parent, 19:50 experience their own healing 19:52 and that's the positive thing that can come out of this, 19:54 when you go to confront somebody 19:55 that you don't come... with... with a negative attitude 19:58 or you don't come with trying to make them regret 20:02 any of the things that have happened, 20:03 but you're trying to go with them, 20:04 to say, "I have found healing and I'm forgiving you, 20:07 let me tell you what and how it happened... " 20:08 and I think that's important 20:10 the other thing... Dee, it struck me that... 20:12 that when you remembered back to five-years-old... 20:14 how all this happened, 20:15 the inter-generational transference, 20:16 of some of the negative emotions 20:18 and the trauma that you experienced 20:19 and then you came full circle 20:21 with inter-generational transference of positive things 20:24 like, your father... coming to Christ... 20:26 you coming to Christ... 20:27 your mother eventually coming to Christ, 20:29 and so, maybe if you could share some of that with us 20:31 about how that happened and the impact on your ministry. 20:33 For sure, I recognized by seeing the root issues, 20:36 it actually fixed some problems that I was still causing 20:39 later in life... while in ministry 20:41 I came to realize that inter-personal differences 20:44 that I was having with people, 20:45 not lots of them... but still I'd have some moments 20:47 or, I would still have the tendency 20:49 to want to be in control to protect myself 20:51 and... 20:53 through finding healing this way, 20:54 I've learned to handle situations 20:56 like the interpersonal relationships 20:57 in a far different way 20:59 so it's brought continued healing 21:00 and future healing for other people too 21:02 so I won't hurt them now. 21:03 So, how do you know if someone's ready 21:05 for you to talk to them? 21:07 Jean: That's an excellent question. 21:08 Jennifer: Yeah, like, you want to go... 21:10 you feel like you're at a place where you're healed enough 21:13 and forgiving enough to go to the person 21:14 and have that needed-but-difficult discussion. 21:17 Jean: Yeah, Christine and I were talking about that. 21:19 Christine: Yeah, if I may weigh in on that, 21:21 I think the Holy Spirit is really the only One 21:23 that can tell us when we're ready for that, 21:26 but, also we can kind of gauge by our emotions, 21:28 "Are we still experiencing a lot of animosity toward the person?" 21:31 If we are, then if we go to that person 21:33 it's more than likely going to be a worse experience 21:36 than if we went when we had that healing already 21:39 we could confront them in love 21:40 and be able to actually have a dialogue that's productive. 21:44 So, I like that if it's the Holy Spirit 21:46 because the Holy Spirit is a person, 21:47 you know, and the Holy Spirit is relational 21:50 and so, He can lead us 21:51 to make sure that there's a good outcome. 21:54 Do you think there's a place for human agencies 21:57 i. e. Counselors... Groups... 21:58 people supporting you through this difficult process 22:02 and providing counsel for you, 22:04 there's safety in a multitude of counselors 22:06 and then, giving you emotional support 22:08 through what has all been a very traumatic event. 22:10 Going back to the source of trauma 22:12 and trying to work through 22:13 and there's no guarantee of how it's going to turn out 22:15 so, we'll be... 22:17 A multitude of counselors, that will be great... 22:18 Do you like counseling? 22:19 That would be a good show. 22:21 That would be a good program. 22:22 We should suggest that to 3ABN. 22:23 Well, I appreciate it because 22:25 I've had people come along my journey and help me 22:26 when someone that I'm going to make amends with... 22:29 forgives, or she forgives... isn't ready... 22:32 and I think, coming in, Jesus said, 22:35 "Where two or three are gathered, I am there... " 22:37 He said, "Be wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove... " 22:40 and so in hurting relationships, 22:42 sometimes, some of my journey is going to be 22:45 God working with me alone. 22:46 "We should pray privately, I'll reward you openly. " 22:49 He also said, "Where two or three are gathered in my name" 22:51 it's not "either... or... " 22:52 a lot of times, we mixed up... either... or... 22:54 I think it should be both and... 22:56 and I've had people pray with me lead to a lot of healing... 22:59 to let me to go and like, talk with my dad... 23:01 so God was using other people, we have Support Groups, 23:04 we have Counselors that can help us ask questions 23:07 and pray with us and then take some time 23:09 and say, "God, how are you leading me 23:11 in this journey right now, what's the next step?" 23:13 And they can also be very helpful in helping us not walk 23:16 even ignorantly, even if we have had healing, 23:19 we can ignorantly say things that are... 23:21 make the situation worse, 23:22 I recently went through a situation 23:24 where I was writing someone a letter, 23:26 touchy situation... and I had two friends 23:28 that I shared it with... say, "No, don't... " 23:31 and I was so glad I listened to them 23:33 because it turned out to be totally the wrong approach, 23:34 so... 23:36 Paul: So we get that feedback 23:37 and I would decide with the person I'd talk about 23:39 some of the wrong ways we can go if we're not healed... 23:41 if I go and my focus is more in you being wrong 23:44 than my journey of healing... 23:46 when Dee went, 23:47 he really wasn't about his mom being bad and wrong, 23:48 it was about his journey and then his dad gets a blessing 23:52 he gets a blessing, his mom starts writing to people 23:54 so now you have a multi-generational pattern 23:57 of blessings going forward... 23:58 you know, we say, "Pay it forward... " 24:00 so it can work both ways... the devil doesn't want that... 24:03 Jennifer: Wait, go back to the part about... 24:05 so, he didn't just go to... what did you say? 24:08 Paul: He didn't go to his mom and say, 24:09 "Here's what you did that's wrong 24:10 and I am high-and-mighty 24:12 and I am self-righteous and I'm forgiving you. " 24:13 So what did he go to his mom to say? 24:15 He went and talked about his journey, 24:16 how he had been hurt and how he is getting healing 24:19 so he's telling a story about his journey 24:22 as opposed to, "You're wrong, 24:24 here's what you did to hurt me... " 24:26 that's a different move. 24:27 So what's the difference between those two things, 24:30 isn't here what we call, "internal locus of control" 24:31 where you're taking responsibility, 24:32 for your own emotions... your own experience 24:34 within the context of what that person did to you 24:36 and you're saying, 24:37 "Here's... here... I'm owning myself... and my... 24:40 I'm taking responsibility for my experience 24:42 let me share it with you 24:43 because I want to have a relationship with you. " 24:45 Jean and I have been talking about that off-camera 24:46 where... maybe you can share, Jean, 24:48 the language that Dee was using as he was sharing. 24:51 Yeah, he was using "I" statements. 24:53 Jennifer: That's right. 24:54 Jean: And that's very powerful 24:56 and to your point about pointing at people... 24:57 sometimes your words are pointing at people 24:59 you're accusatory in your tone... 25:01 in your words... in your blaming... 25:02 whereas what Dee was sharing with us was, 25:04 "I had an experience... this is my journey... " 25:07 and this is how you play the role in it, certainly, 25:10 but I think that using the "I" statements 25:13 and owning it as Jennifer stated 25:15 is not only healing for the individual, 25:17 it also allows the person to come in 25:19 and be a part of the story with you 25:20 understanding that I don't have to be defensive 25:22 and I think when you put people in the defensive mode, 25:25 it kind of tweaks the conversation 25:28 in a way that you don't want it to go to Christina's... 25:30 So if I come to you and share, "You know Jean, you hurt me... 25:32 and I'm here to forgive you... " 25:33 is that going to build a bridge or is that going to build walls? 25:37 Jean: I need a little context first. 25:38 Jennifer: So what you do is you say, 25:40 "I experienced pain when you said that... " 25:43 and can you put the best construction on it and say, 25:46 "I know you were dealing with your own stuff 25:48 and did not mean to have that effect on me... " 25:49 could you say that in most cases? 25:51 Yeah, yeah... and that's what you said, Dee 25:53 when you were talking to her... his mother... 25:54 he would say, "I knew you were going through 25:56 A, B, C and D... and this is how it affected me" 25:59 and so, he was showing empathy to his mother's journey 26:03 and into the difficulties that his mother had 26:04 and expressed to her... 26:06 "This is how what you went through 26:07 impacted me as a child. " 26:09 And, she was in a place where she was able to receive it. 26:12 Six months later... a month earlier... 26:14 a year earlier wouldn't be... 26:16 so the Holy Spirit tells you, "Now is the time... " 26:17 Jennifer: But how do you know? 26:19 Paul: And it's just not for Dee... 26:20 the Holy Spirit is taking into consideration, Dee's mom 26:23 because there's two people 26:24 that are going to be in this conversation. 26:26 How do you know, though, that the Holy Spirit... 26:28 I mean, I know it's a big question 26:29 and we may not have time for it... 26:31 I would be praying with him first and ask him first, 26:32 "How much peace do you have, 26:33 have you looked at some of the minefields, 26:35 are you going to use "I" statements or "You" statements? 26:37 Are you going to talk about your journey 26:39 or are you going to tell 26:40 how you've been wronged by the person? 26:42 What's your focus? 26:43 And help them... like you said, 26:44 you showed a letter to your friends and you got feedback, 26:48 "Is this person open to getting feedback?" 26:50 To avoid a lot of these mistakes. 26:52 I think, sometimes too, 26:54 we feel compelled to say something at a certain time 26:57 and I think that sometimes it's not the right emotion 27:00 like, it might be righteous indignation... 27:02 well, sometimes it is the right time 27:04 if it's righteous indignation 27:06 but other times, it might be sinful or... 27:07 I don't want to say, "anger" but it's just this... 27:11 Dee talked about fear too so it's just not anger... 27:15 but... yeah... 27:17 But anger tends to a secondary emotion 27:19 in response to fear so to try to protect ourselves 27:21 from what we're afraid of... 27:22 a lot of times, we'll come across... aggressive. 27:24 I think, sometimes when we feel that, 27:25 we think, "Oh, wow! now is the time, 27:27 I'd better say something... because if I don't say it now, 27:28 it's never going to happen... " 27:30 Well, I think we have to be very careful... and really... 27:32 through our searching of our own hearts 27:34 and surrendering that to the Lord 27:36 and if we're close to God, He's going to be talking to us 27:39 and if we're not hearing a voice... 27:40 that means we need to spend more time with Him too 27:42 to be able to hear that voice and experience His guidance. 27:45 Amen, we're going to have to wind up, 27:47 this is a vital discussion, 27:48 if you've been wounded as a result of a broken home, 27:51 there's help and hope and healing for you, 27:54 we just want to encourage you. 27:56 Thank you for being with us during this Program 27:58 on the Multitude of Counselors. |
Revised 2017-07-31