Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Aron Crews, Christina Ceccoto, Dr. Jean Wright II, Paul Coneff
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000015A
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00:27 Welcome to a Multitude of Counselors
00:29 where we hear the silent cry of the broken. 00:33 We're going to be talking about 00:34 a particular kind of brokenness today... suicide... 00:37 suicidality is defined as the desire and... or... intention 00:42 to take one's own life. 00:44 Let me share with you some statistics on this, 00:47 the annual rate of suicide in the US is 13 per 100,000 people. 00:53 We know that it is also the tenth leading cause of death... 00:58 in 2013... 01:00 for people 10 to 24, 01:02 suicide is the second leading cause of death. 01:05 Women attempt suicide three times more often than men 01:10 and men complete suicide three times more often than women 01:13 because they generally use stronger methods... 01:16 more effective methods, if you can say it that way, 01:18 there are 121 suicides per day in the US... 01:22 seven out of ten of them are white males 01:26 just some kind of random facts. 01:29 What about the causes of suicide? 01:32 As I see it... maybe you guys can confirm this, 01:35 there are two main causes, 01:37 one would be: major life events that are extremely upsetting... 01:41 the loss of a job... breakup of a relationship... 01:43 divorce... health problem developing... 01:46 a diagnosis from a doctor... 01:48 or something that upsets life 01:50 and a second cause would be any kind of mental illness 01:54 such as major depressive disorder... 01:56 psychotic disorders... and so forth, 01:58 it seems that most suicides come from one of those two things 02:01 in my experience, would you... what do you think? 02:04 Jean: I agree. 02:05 Jennifer: Yeah, okay, what about prognosis and treatment? 02:08 Suicide is preventable... interesting fact... 02:10 4 out of 5 youths who attempt suicide 02:13 have given clear warning signs... 02:16 4 out of 5 have given clear warning signs. 02:19 People think that if they suspect that someone is suicidal 02:24 they should not say anything because they fear 02:27 that by planting that thought in that person's mind 02:29 it's going to actually increase the chances 02:32 of that person acting out, this is false... 02:35 when we suspect someone to be suicidal 02:38 or in danger of hurting themselves, 02:40 we should broach the subject with them 02:42 and we want to equip you to do that 02:44 here at A Multitude of Counselors 02:46 by directing you to our web page and on the webpage you will find 02:50 a tool called: "Tip Map" 02:53 when we are concerned about people 02:56 wanting to hurt themselves, 02:57 we want to tip the map of their lives 02:59 in the right direction, so, "Tip Map" is an acronym 03:02 that helps you remember 03:04 the series of questions you need to ask 03:06 when you fear that someone is suicidal 03:08 T... Thoughts... 03:10 I... Intention... 03:13 P... Plan... 03:15 M... Method... 03:18 A... Access to the Method 03:21 and P... Prior History... 03:24 you can find that whole tool on our website 03:27 on: AMultitudeOfCounselors. tv 03:29 we urge you to go there, download that Tip Map 03:32 so that you will be equipped 03:33 in dealing with this very difficult issue, 03:35 we also want to give you an 800 number 03:37 for the National Suicide Prevention Life Line, 03:41 anybody can call this number at any time, 03:45 it's 1-800-273-8255 03:48 if you or someone you know is in danger of suicide, 03:52 call: 1-800-273-8255. 03:56 We have with us today a young man 03:59 who actually grappled with suicide 04:02 and we are going to unpack that story in just a few minutes here 04:05 but let me introduce by name first... Aron Crews... 04:09 Aron with one "A" is from Michigan... 04:11 you're a pastor in Michigan, correct? 04:14 We also have with us our Panel of Counselors, 04:17 we have Marriage and Family Therapist, Paul Coneff, 04:19 we have Dr. Jean Wright who is... 04:21 what do you call yourself? 04:23 A Clinical and Forensic Psychologist. 04:25 Oh, that's fancy... and he's from Philadelphia, 04:27 my hometown, kind of... 04:28 and this is Christina Cecotto, Professional Counselor... 04:32 Christina Cecotto who is from Wildwood 04:36 and we're so thankful to have each one of you, 04:38 I'm real excited about unpacking this issue... 04:41 it's an intense one... 04:42 but we're going to do it in the context of Aron's story, 04:45 so tell us Aron, upfront here, 04:47 where you someone that struggled along the journey of life 04:50 with depression and with a desire to die, 04:53 was it something you were familiar with 04:57 or... or had experienced? 04:58 Hmmm... hmmm... actually no... 05:01 my entire life... I've always been 05:03 and people will tell you 05:05 that I've always been a very positive upbeat person, 05:07 one who... 05:10 myself personally... I never thought 05:11 that I would actually ever have to deal with this issue, 05:14 I remember, I would have friends... 05:16 that would be like, "Oh, I'm going through a hard time" 05:18 I would try to sympathize with them, of course, 05:20 but there was always... to a certain degree 05:22 some sort of dissonance... where it was like, 05:24 "Man! if they were just more cheerful or... " 05:26 or something like that that would be magically fixed. 05:29 So the million-dollar question is, 05:31 "How did you get from being a basically positive person 05:35 with no history of depression 05:36 to the point of wanting to take your life?" 05:40 Like, that's pretty extreme. 05:41 Yeah, well, it was at the end of my college experience, 05:48 I was going into my last semester of college... 05:51 excuse me, let me back up a little bit... 05:53 I was entering the summer, 05:54 right before my last semester of college, 05:56 where I began to take a drug called "Accutane" 05:59 and it was... 06:01 Accutane is a drug that has to do with your skin... 06:03 in particular... Acne... to help cure that... 06:06 and make your skin look really nice and stuff... 06:09 so that... coupled up with another thing... 06:12 there was a relationship that was in the works... 06:15 sort of developing there and that ended up not working out, 06:18 kind of falling apart... 06:20 so the two things coupled together... kind of compounded 06:22 with the side effects and the result of this drug, "Accutane" 06:27 plus the relational dynamics that were at play. 06:30 Did you have any clue, like, percentages... 06:32 like, could you make an educated guess 06:35 about how much of it was the Accutane 06:36 and how much was the relationship? 06:38 I don't know if I can give an exact percentage, 06:41 I might say, 50... 50... it just kind of both compounded. 06:44 Jennifer: It set off each other. 06:46 Aron: And I thought through a million times 06:47 what if one wasn't there 06:48 and... it was just one of the factors... 06:50 and would I still have gone through what I did? 06:52 And it's just too hard for me to kind of parse out. 06:55 So, tell us what happened, like, what did you start... 06:57 like, obsessing about wanting to die 06:59 or what was going on? 07:00 Well, it didn't happen all that fast 07:03 but basically, I was working at a summer camp, 07:05 at the beginning of the summer, 07:06 right when I began to take the drug, 07:08 I was on it for about a few weeks, 07:10 and the beginning of summer camp... 07:12 and this was a summer camp that I grew up at, 07:14 I was there for 11 years, I had a... 07:17 I loved this camp... super happy... 07:19 and so, this was the first time at life, 07:21 I was getting to be a Staff Member there, 07:24 I was going to be a Counselor, so this was like, awesome... 07:26 I had, like, a lot of friends, really good friends 07:28 that were going to be working there 07:30 and so, as the summer began I remember one evening, 07:33 very specifically, it was a great day, 07:36 everything was going just swell 07:38 and all of a sudden, 07:39 I just began to have a crying spell 07:42 I was there by myself and I just began to weep... 07:44 I mean just... totally... just weep and weep 07:47 and I was like, "Why am I crying? 07:48 This is really weird... " 07:50 Jennifer: Were you a weepy person normally? 07:52 Aron: No, not at all, I mean, 07:53 we're all emotional... more or less, 07:55 but I usually have a direct cause or something 07:59 if I was very emotional and so, I was trying to think, 08:00 "Well, why was this happening?" 08:02 The only thing I could come up with was, 08:04 maybe it's an extreme case of nostalgia... 08:06 where I'm just like, "Wow, I really... this is so cool, 08:09 I used to be a camper here... " 08:11 that's the only reason I could give at that time, 08:13 and as the summer progressed, 08:16 the person that I was sort of getting to know... 08:19 developing a relationship 08:21 was also working out at the camp at the same time as me 08:23 so throughout that summer, 08:24 it kind of began to get worse and worse, 08:27 where I began to notice myself, 08:29 the person... I began to change a little bit, 08:30 I began to get a little bit more sad 08:33 and I didn't want to admit it because, 08:36 "Oh, I'm sad... no, I'm not... " yeah... 08:39 and then finally, 08:40 once that relationship finally didn't work out 08:42 and kind of crumbled apart, 08:43 that's when all of a sudden, everything fell... 08:46 like it just fell apart. 08:47 Jennifer: Did the sadness impact the relationship? 08:50 Aron: I would definitely say that it did... to a degree 08:53 where I felt like there were certain things 08:56 that I was doing and saying sometimes 08:58 that just didn't feel like myself, 09:00 and I'd question myself, "What... what am I... 09:02 why am I acting this way, 09:03 why am I doing these things sometimes, 09:05 and, yeah, it was a very difficult situation. 09:09 Did you get to the point of thinking about suicide, 09:11 like, where you were actually... 09:13 So, yes, early on, at the beginning of the semester 09:17 now the summer was ending, I began to... 09:19 once this thing was all just taking place, 09:21 I actually looked up on the internet 09:22 the most pain-free way to kill myself... numerous times, 09:25 I probably spent multiple hours doing that 09:27 and one time, I was just so out of it 09:30 that I just couldn't handle being on campus anymore 09:33 and I just had to be with my parents, 09:36 that I actually just drove home ten hours just to be home 09:39 and as I was driving home, 09:41 basically, every truck that I saw... I imagined myself 09:44 just crashing into a bridge, just driving off 09:47 and so, I was calling my parents and I was just crying, 09:50 I'm like, "Dad, I can't believe I'm feeling this way, 09:52 I don't even know if I can make it," 09:54 and they said, "Aron, stop, pull over... 09:55 we're going to drive half way, we're going to pick you up, 09:58 don't drive anymore, it's not safe for you. " 10:00 Oh my! that's incredible, you know, 10:03 it's a tragedy in a way that 10:05 we have the internet, in this regard, 10:07 that people can find information on how to build bombs 10:10 and how to kill themselves. 10:12 And there are real websites out there 10:13 that are like... help you do it, 10:15 it's kind of scary, that I look back and think about it. 10:17 Did your family drive all the way out to get you? 10:19 About half way because I was driving 10:21 and they said, "Pull over... " 10:23 and they drove about half way, yeah. 10:24 When did the light go on that there was a medical explanation 10:28 for what was happening? 10:29 Yes, there was one time where I was back in my apartment 10:33 and I was there by myself 10:35 and I was just literally rolling on the ground 10:37 just intensely crying and just weeping 10:39 and just like, "I can't handle anything... " 10:41 and I remember crying out to God and saying, 10:43 "God, you promised in Your Word 10:45 that you will not let us handle anything 10:47 you will not give us anything that we can't handle. " 10:50 And I'm like, "It seems like it's passed that point... 10:53 I trust you but I need help here... " 10:55 and all of a sudden, something clicked, 10:56 it was like a voice that said, "The Accutane... 10:59 have you considered and thought about the drug?" 11:01 And all of a... I had not correlated it to that point, 11:04 I was just thinking, this all had to do with this relationship 11:06 but it didn't really make a lot of sense 11:08 because it wasn't a super well-developed relationship, 11:11 I'm like, "I'm really taking this hard" 11:12 so that's when I immediately called my dermatologist 11:15 and told him what I was going through 11:17 and he said, "Drop it right now, 11:19 don't take one more dosage, you need to stop right now. " 11:21 And the thing with these things that can affect the psyche 11:25 is that you never know how it's going to affect a person, 11:28 there are people probably that take this very same drug 11:31 that don't have that reaction, 11:33 the same thing is true of psychotropic drugs... 11:35 sometimes, "Lexapro" with one person works great 11:38 another person... it backfires tremendously 11:40 so, if there's brain chemistry involved... 11:43 but my thought is that... 11:45 were you engaging in kind of like, emotional reasoning 11:49 where... we call it, "Secondary Disturbance" 11:52 where you're disturbed 11:53 and then you're disturbed about being disturbed 11:54 where you're upset and you start putting a construction 11:59 on your emotional distress, like, you're thinking, 12:03 "Maybe I'm just really upset about this girl... 12:06 but I can't figure out why 12:08 but maybe I'm just getting to become so fragile, 12:11 I'm not going to make it through life... 12:12 every relationship trouble I have, 12:14 I'm going to melt down... I mean... 12:16 I'm going to become unfit for relationships... " 12:18 can you see how it just... 12:19 it would just snowball after that point 12:21 if you start believing your emotions 12:23 but here those emotions were largely caused by a substance 12:27 and that's why it's so important that we teach people 12:30 how to take a step back from their feelings 12:34 because they are just feelings 12:36 and they are caused by a variety of things 12:39 including medications 12:40 or the music that's playing on the System 12:42 or the traffic jam you just went through 12:44 or the time of the month that it is, 12:47 or physical problems you may be having, 12:49 they can be caused by all of these things 12:51 and emotions are not character 12:54 you know, it's a profound statement 12:56 in the writings of Ellen White, she says, 12:57 "Thoughts and feelings combined make up moral character" 13:00 I work a lot with clients, 13:02 I try to help them back off of their feelings and say, 13:04 "You know what? 13:06 It is a feeling... it isn't who I am... " 13:08 and I think if someone had been able to help you with that, 13:10 maybe it wouldn't have been so upsetting. 13:13 Yeah, well, I did begin to see a Counselor 13:15 for the first time in my life, 13:17 I was like, "Man! maybe I should see a Counselor" 13:20 of course, I'd tell my parents, my mom... 13:21 "I'm going through this, I'm feeling suicidal... " 13:24 and they're like, "Go, go to a Counselor" 13:25 so I sat before one of the scary people like you 13:28 for... 13:29 Jennifer: And now you've got four of us. 13:31 Aron: And now we've got four of you... yeah... 13:32 that was quite... quite the experience. 13:35 Jennifer: What would you guys... go ahead... sorry... 13:37 Aron: I was just going to say, during that time 13:38 there was... 13:40 I know people define guilt and shame in different ways 13:42 but the way that I understood it during that time and now, still, 13:44 was that guilt is when you make a mistake... 13:47 and shame is that feeling when you are a mistake... 13:51 and so, there was a lot of... 13:52 because I wasn't acting like myself at different times, 13:54 and so there was a lot of "shame messages" 13:56 that I was feeling where it's like, 13:58 "Man! I'm doing these things, I'm acting this way, 14:00 I'm so low in my life, 14:01 I feel like I can never get out of this... " 14:03 this is just who I am... this is a permanent identity, 14:06 and I really needed a lot of people that were there for me 14:09 like my Counselor, like my parents, 14:11 like my older sister and my roommate 14:12 and lots of other friends 14:14 that were affirming to me and saying, 14:15 "Aron, this isn't who you are, you... 14:16 I know who you are, you're a bubbly person... " 14:19 I was a Theology Major, 14:22 I was a Theology Major and that's why I'm a Pastor now, 14:24 and I was asking questions like, 14:26 "Is it even okay to be a Theology Major 14:28 and be this depressed? 14:29 Is it okay to be thinking, am I even fit for the ministry 14:32 if I'm borderline suicidal?" 14:34 I mean, there were just lots of things going on 14:37 with my future and like my identity 14:39 and all these things during that time. 14:41 So, he comes to you guys' office okay, 14:43 and he doesn't know at this point... that it's the drug 14:47 and what do you say to him? 14:49 What would you have done? 14:50 Not to put you on the hot seat or anything. 14:52 The first thing that I would want to ask is 14:54 and I think you described it quite well 14:56 is the cycling that he went through 14:58 and you mentioned that it wasn't quick... 15:00 it wasn't a quick process... 15:02 it was a gradual kind of thing 15:03 but as Jennifer mentioned, one thing led to another 15:06 and before you know it, 15:07 they started stacking themselves up... on top of themselves, 15:10 it's kind of like you have a stack of books 15:11 and eventually they just keep getting higher and higher 15:14 and so, although it may have... 15:15 originally it may have been something like a drug 15:17 or a relationship, 15:19 you started catastrophizing everything 15:21 and that's the thing I was struck by your testimony 15:25 is that you became someone that you were not used to, 15:28 you didn't know who this person was 15:29 and your friends didn't know who you were 15:31 so that's what I would do first, 15:32 is help him to help me understand... 15:34 and drill down to the cycle that he went through 15:36 because that would tell me a lot 15:38 and we can identify the different areas... 15:40 I'd also want to do a timeline because... 15:42 I'd want to know, "When did it start?" 15:44 Because once you know when it starts, 15:46 and then, you see this cycle 15:48 and you get back to when it started, 15:50 then we can begin asking, 15:51 "What happened at that time that's different... 15:55 that's out of the norm for you?" 15:57 Jennifer: That would be really super helpful 15:59 and I often ask my clients to do a lifeline... 16:01 a timeline that the major events in your life... 16:04 and when things developed... 16:05 and that could be so helpful to us 16:06 who are trying to track with them... 16:08 you know, you have some... 16:09 Paul: And we might start with the relationship 16:11 because that's where he's focused on 16:12 but that question creates an opportunity to say, 16:15 "What else is new, what is different... " 16:16 what's happening 16:18 that he could actually, maybe, bring that up. 16:20 Jennifer: One of the variables, one of the new variables 16:22 that were introduced into your life 16:23 that brought about... 16:25 potentially brought about this decline. 16:26 Paul: Because he wasn't aware, 16:28 it didn't click for him for a long time 16:29 until he's saying, "God, what do I do, 16:30 what is the next step, what do you...?" And then... 16:33 Sounds like both of you are talking about 16:34 getting to the cause of how this... why this came about... 16:38 and I noticed what Jennifer was saying 16:40 that... it sounded like, 16:42 you were disturbed that you were disturbed... 16:43 and that's kind of like, grief upon grief... 16:46 and it caused it to actually become worse, 16:48 and I'm wondering, after you stopped the Accutane, 16:51 how did you feel after that? 16:54 Yeah, well, after I did more research in correlating, 16:57 "Hey, a lot of these symptoms have to do with this drug... " 17:00 I found out that the drug doesn't go instantly 17:03 out of your body... it takes at least a week 17:05 and mostly up to a month before it completely flushes out 17:08 and so, I was like, excited... "Now I'm off of it... great... 17:11 I should magically get better... " 17:13 Well, I found out that once you get into that cycle... 17:15 once you're down there, 17:17 regardless of what brings you there... 17:18 once you're there... it's just hard to get out... 17:21 if you're thrown into a pit that's muddy... 17:23 it's hard to climb out... 17:25 so I was still down there for quite some time. 17:27 Jennifer: For how long? 17:28 Aron: How long? Probably the worse into it 17:30 was about two months... a two-month period 17:32 but kind of the entirely, 17:34 with maybe like 4 or 5 months of it being pretty intense. 17:38 Jennifer: So, the drug is out of your System, 17:40 in a week or two... 17:41 and you stayed down for 4 or 5 months... 17:45 so, it was because of the momentum 17:47 of all that had happened 17:49 that you stayed that long because the drug had just 17:51 pretty much gotten out of your System by then... true? 17:54 Aron: True, but then when I look back, 17:56 there was still a lot of damage 17:58 that was done during that time 17:59 and that feeling of being distressed 18:01 about being distressed and looking back 18:03 and really dwelling upon it, 18:05 because a lot of what was happening 18:07 I felt that really wasn't healthy at the time 18:09 and even looking back on it 18:11 was... I kept trying to figure out everything. 18:14 "How can I stop this? How can I get better?" 18:16 And then, dwelling upon the past... 18:17 like, "This happened... and that happened 18:19 and what if that didn't happen and da... da... da... " 18:21 and trying to really control it all myself... 18:23 micro-manage my own thoughts and all these different things 18:26 instead of, of course, throughout the entire time 18:28 which I'm going to really expand upon it here a minute... 18:31 really surrendering it completely over to God 18:34 instead of trying to micro-manage everything 18:36 and every thought that's going through my mind. 18:39 Jennifer: Hmmm... hmmm... I love that 18:40 because we, as Counselors, can often, take up with a method 18:43 or we have an idea of what needs to happen 18:45 for a person to be well 18:47 but we need to realize that those are human constructs 18:49 and ultimately, God is the healer... 18:51 and we have to be willing to turn people over 18:53 and ourselves over to Him, 18:55 this is why I pray with clients, you know, 18:57 I'm not sure exactly how God is going to heal this person 19:00 I have an idea and that's why they've come to me for help 19:03 because I have some experience and some idea 19:05 but it may go very differently, 19:07 we were just talking about a person we both know, 19:09 we just are amazed at what God has done in their lives 19:12 so, this is important... that we need to keep our eyes on Him 19:16 and that's really powerful. 19:17 Jean: For sure, I think something important 19:19 that Aron said was that once he was down in that pit, 19:22 if I can use that same metaphor that he used, 19:25 that it was difficult to climb out, 19:27 so, how you got there is one thing, 19:29 getting out is a totally different thing 19:30 so what came in my mind was, 19:32 your self-worth and value that you placed on yourself 19:34 had been disturbed, it had been tweaked... 19:37 it had been changed and, you know, Jennifer, 19:39 we talk about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy 19:41 and we talk about the negative thought patterns 19:43 those kinds of things... those things can continue 19:45 even when the drug is out of your System 19:47 and so what Aron is sharing with the audience is that 19:51 the fact that the impetus was gone... did not change... 19:54 where he had cycled down to 19:56 and I think that's an important thing to share with people. 19:58 So, I've a question for you, 20:00 was there some element of... "Hey, I've always been Mr. Happy 20:04 I'm not allowed to have a bad spell... 20:08 this is so shattering to my self-image... " 20:11 and could it be that now you've broadened your self-image 20:15 to allow yourself to have a difficult time 20:19 as a result of this experience, you know what I'm saying? 20:21 Did you have a little bit of circumscribed 20:23 definition of yourself that didn't allow you... 20:25 was that part of the impact of this whole thing? 20:28 "I'm not an unhappy person... I'm a happy person... " 20:30 you know... 20:32 Yeah, definitely there are emotions that are multi-faceted 20:37 and once you experience depression and suicidal ideation 20:42 you begin to realize, "Whoa, I am frail... 20:44 this is a reality that I've gone through, 20:46 I can't cover that up, I can't hide that... 20:48 this is something that's real... " 20:50 and now, the way that I talk with other people 20:52 who have gone through something similar, 20:55 it's a lot easier for me to understand 20:57 and sympathize... and even empathize with them... 20:59 during that time there were a lot of people 21:02 that really... 21:03 that I would kind of open up to a little bit... 21:05 and they've shared... 21:06 "Wow! I've gone through the same thing... " 21:08 Wow! it's almost like God allowed you to experience 21:11 what it's like to have an organic brain disease... 21:13 except that it was medically induced... so to speak... 21:16 but can you imagine being a person 21:18 with psychosis or schizophrenia, 21:20 where your brain chemistry won't work for you 21:23 the way normal people's brain chemistry works for them 21:26 so God really kind of gave you... 21:28 maybe you didn't see it this way 21:29 but God gave you an experience 21:30 that will increase your empathy 21:32 for people with organic brain disease, if nothing else. 21:35 Definitely, yeah, I like to think 21:37 that I can sympathize at least this much more 21:39 in understanding that 21:41 and really the ultimate bridge that helped me get through it, 21:45 there has been a talk, I've heard, about, 21:47 "How to get past your past... " 21:49 well, that's great... I'd like to know, 21:51 "How do you get past your present 21:53 when you are in the thick of things. " 21:55 Jennifer: Yeah. 21:56 Aron: How I got through that was that the idea of sympathizing 21:58 is that, when I studied the Bible 22:01 and, of course, I had a background in theology 22:03 and studying the Bible and a love for Christ 22:05 which I believe firmly that if I did not have 22:08 a pre-established and ongoing relationship 22:11 with Jesus and God during that time, 22:13 I believe with all my heart I would not be here 22:16 in this chair today. 22:17 It's that going back to Christ and His sufferings on my behalf 22:21 that really propagated me to go through it, 22:24 that Jesus is the real panacea for all of our maladies... 22:28 mental, physical, emotional, everything 22:32 and so once I realized that, He... He... 22:34 when you look at the "cross experience... " 22:36 and all the pain that He went through... 22:38 the mental agony... everything like that... 22:41 that's incredible... 22:42 and then you take it even a step further 22:44 and realize that the exact pain that I was going through, 22:47 was the same pain that He was right there with me... 22:50 and there's a particular quote 22:52 that I read just about every single day 22:55 during that time that meant a lot to me 22:57 and it's by Ellen White found in the book, 23:00 "The Desire of Ages... " and she writes this, 23:02 she says, "Through all our trials 23:05 we have a never-failing helper. 23:07 He does not leave us alone to struggle with temptation, 23:11 to battle with evil, 23:12 and be finally crushed with burdens and sorrow. 23:15 Though now He is hidden from mortal sight, 23:18 the ear of faith can hear His voice saying, 23:21 'Fear not; I'm with you. 23:24 I am He that liveth, and was dead; 23:26 and behold, I am alive forevermore. 23:29 I have endured your sorrows, experienced your struggles, 23:33 encountered your temptations. 23:35 I know your tears; I also have wept. '" 23:40 And here's the line that I just read over and over again. 23:43 "The griefs that lie too deep 23:47 to be breathed into any human ear, I know. 23:51 Think not that you are desolate and forsaken. 23:55 Though your pain touch no responsive chord 23:59 in any heart on earth, look unto me, and live. '" 24:01 Wow! Hmmm... Amen... 24:03 And that was my go-to every day. 24:05 And as Counselors, we need to bear that in mind 24:08 that the best thing we can do for our people 24:10 is connect them to someone 24:12 who can hear things that even we, 24:15 their Counselor, cannot hear. 24:17 Griefs that lie too deep for even us to hear... 24:20 even in our position in their lives, 24:22 there is someone who can hear them, 24:23 His name is Jesus... and we need to be leading them to Him 24:25 and that is so beautiful, Aron, that is so powerful 24:29 and an inspired statement like that... can be like, 24:33 you know, when you're rock climbing and there's a hold... 24:35 it can be a "hold" that keeps you from falling into the pit 24:38 and that's exactly what it really is. 24:39 And I think it's important because 24:41 one of the things about suicide is... it's often a loss of hope, 24:44 it's hopelessness... if we were to beget... 24:46 it's not the only reason but a major umbrella 24:48 that would be hopelessness, 24:49 if we can help them have hope 24:51 and here... he's talking about the cross 24:54 and how powerful that is too 24:55 and part of that is that time in Gethsemane, 24:57 when He's overwhelmed in His soul 24:59 to the point of death, that's what Scriptures say. 25:01 We're not saying, "He was hopeless... " 25:02 we're saying, "He went into the darkness 25:04 of where He couldn't see any light beyond Him. " 25:07 There was actual trauma, it wasn't... 25:09 He wasn't play acting. 25:11 Paul: He was sweating blood... this is real blood 25:12 the blood that was in His brain are breaking... 25:14 coming out of His forehead... 25:16 so He understands incredible stress, 25:17 He understands darkness, 25:19 He understands being tempted to have no hope 25:23 and that's where He gets the power 25:25 to be that sympathetic High Priest in Hebrews 4 25:28 that says, "I can sympathize with you... 25:30 I can identify with you because I was tempted... 25:32 and that gives you confidence or boldness to come to me. " 25:35 Hmmm... hmmm... and on the basis of that, 25:37 we can look at people in the eye 25:39 who want to die and we could say, 25:41 "There is life beyond this... there's a future here... 25:43 it gets better... " so to speak... 25:46 "someone understands 25:47 and someone can carry you into the future. " 25:49 I can remember a conversation I had with a suicidal person 25:53 where all I said to them was, 25:54 "All I'm asking is that you live... 25:56 please... just live... you don't have to change... 26:00 you don't have to get off your addiction... 26:01 you don't have to do anything different... 26:03 just live... " 26:04 and they knew exactly what I meant 26:06 and they said, "No... " 26:08 and I said to them, 26:09 "If you die, I'll be left with a broken heart" 26:12 and they said, "I won't be here to notice it" 26:15 and I said, "Do you really want to be that way?" 26:18 Please... just live... " 26:20 and they said, "Okay, I'll live... " 26:22 finally... and sometimes that's all we can say to people, 26:25 it's just... "Live... there is... 26:27 God can get you through this, 26:28 there's a future, it gets better... " 26:30 Paul: And if they're open, 26:32 you have to meet people where they are... 26:33 and if they're open to spiritual resources... 26:35 I want to move in that information 26:37 about Jesus' story in Gethsemane... 26:38 in the darkness on Calvary... 26:41 and I want to take their story into Jesus' story... 26:43 turn it into a prayer 26:44 because when they start talking to God, 26:46 and identifying with Christ, 26:47 I find that God does some healing and gives them some hope 26:50 and Jesus went through with these experiences 26:52 being tempted to not have hope, 26:53 to not have joy, to not have trust in His Father, 26:56 so they can receive His hope, His trust in His Father... 27:00 so we're not even asking them to have hope 27:01 that they can't generate, 27:03 we're not asking them to do something that they can't... 27:04 we're not saying, 27:05 "Do something you're already unable to do. " 27:07 Jennifer: You receive from Jesus the hope that He had. 27:08 Paul: And the word, "receive" is in the King James 27:10 in the New Testament... 257 times. 27:12 Jennifer: Wow! 27:13 Paul: So that's a fairly solid foundation 27:15 to say, "Let's pray Jesus' story into your story... 27:19 and receive His hope... " 27:22 as opposed to telling them, 27:23 again, "Here's a key, 27:25 try and do what you're already unable to do" 27:27 that is... that's stealing their hope... that's robbing them. 27:30 Christina: Well, it sounds as if Aron was actually doing 27:31 Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. 27:33 He was replacing that hopelessness with hope 27:36 by reading that quote every day 27:38 so really, that is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy 27:41 that you were doing. 27:42 Jean: That's right. 27:43 Paul: Christ-centered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. 27:45 Christina: Exactly. 27:46 Aron: And in John chapter 6, Jesus says, 27:48 "The words I speak to you, 27:49 they are Spirit and they are life. " 27:51 Christina: Amen. Jean: Amen. 27:52 Jennifer: Well, this is a powerful conversation 27:54 that we're having here, 27:55 we just want those of you that have been listening... 27:57 and those of you who have struggled with suicide 27:59 and know someone that has, live... 28:01 God's message to you is, "Live... it gets better... " |
Revised 2017-07-31