Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Shelley Wiggins, Davis Guerrero, Dr. Jean Wright II, Joel Avery
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000021A
|
00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors
00:28 where we know that it doesn't hurt to admit our hurt. 00:31 We're going to honestly open a bit of a can of worms today, 00:36 the title of our Program is "Jesus' Take on Racism" 00:39 yes, we are going to talk about racism. 00:41 Racism is defined as prejudice, discrimination or antagonism 00:47 directed against someone of a different race 00:50 based on the belief 00:52 that one's own race is superior. 00:54 Now that belief can be conscious or unconscious... 00:57 interestingly enough. 00:59 The wounds acquired through racism run very deep 01:02 both individually and collectively. 01:05 Trauma... we find... 01:07 can be communicated genetically 01:09 such that the wounds of racism 01:11 can be handed down from generation to generation. 01:14 What about the prevalence of racism? 01:16 Well, this depends on who you talk to... 01:18 88 percent of Blacks say that there is such a thing as racism 01:23 but only 57 percent of whites agree with that. 01:26 One study of racial discrimination 01:29 and psychopathology across the US 01:31 found that African Americans experience 01:35 significantly more instances of racism 01:38 than either Asian or Hispanic American. 01:41 Furthermore, those African Americans 01:44 who experience the most racism 01:46 are significantly more likely to experience 01:48 post-traumatic stress as a result. 01:51 The bottom line of all of that is 01:54 approximately one in ten black people in America 01:58 have become traumatized 02:00 as a result of our problem with racism. 02:03 You know, racism rests on the foundation of the belief 02:07 that one's race is superior. 02:09 So in essence, racism is a collective form of pride. 02:15 What about the prognosis and treatment? 02:17 The work of reconciliation as I see it 02:20 demands of us... empathic listening... 02:23 we have to be willing to hear from other people 02:25 what happened to them 02:28 as a result of what we did either directly or indirectly, 02:31 and I happened to be a believer 02:33 in what we call collective or "corporate repentance. " 02:36 I am sorry for what white people did to black people 02:39 as a white person, I tell black people... 02:42 "I'm sorry for what my people did to your people... 02:44 I feel terrible about it... " 02:46 and I may not have been there, 02:47 I may not have lynched anyone, I may not have... have... 02:51 have... you know, taken their seat on the bus or whatever, 02:54 but I still feel a sense of repentance 02:56 for what my people did to their people 02:58 so the work of reconciliation demands empathic listening, 03:02 victim support... 03:03 and ideally... repentance on the part of the perpetrator. 03:06 Now the complicated thing about racism 03:09 is that it kind of goes both ways, 03:10 things get complicated after awhile 03:12 and there's wrong on both sides. 03:13 So, yes, we are opening a can of worms today 03:16 on A Multitude of Counselors 03:18 but we're going to try to zoom in 03:20 on the emotional effects of racism. 03:22 Our talk is... "Jesus... " 03:24 our Program is: Jesus' Take on Racism 03:26 and our guest... our special guest is Joel Avery. 03:29 Joel, I still don't know how to describe you, 03:32 you're a Creative... that works with computers 03:35 and architecture, is that okay? 03:37 That's good... that's great... 03:38 He's a geek... 03:39 okay and he's very talented... 03:41 and he has his own story... 03:44 and we're going to be getting into parts of his story 03:46 but we also have on our Panel of Counselors, 03:48 we have David Guerrero 03:50 Biblical Counselor from Wisconsin. 03:52 We have Licensed Professional Counselor from Michigan, 03:54 Shelly Wiggins... my girl... 03:57 and we've got Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia... 04:02 my homie from Philly... 04:04 and so, we have three Philadelphians 04:06 on this Panel today... really exciting... it's awesome. 04:09 So, let's open the can of worms here, 04:11 Joel, tell us your story, 04:13 where have you experienced racism? 04:15 And I think we're going to zoom in 04:17 on how you've experienced racism within the church... 04:20 like I said... can of worms. 04:22 Joel: It is a can of worms and it's interesting 04:25 because what brought me here today 04:29 really occurred relatively recently 04:33 so, in transitioning from one State to another... 04:39 moving from Philadelphia down to Florida... 04:41 family had a lot going on 04:43 and it was interesting 04:46 getting used to a new location 04:49 but we were kind of looking forward to a change 04:51 and we were sad to leave our church family in Philadelphia 04:55 but it was interesting to see the new churches... 05:00 larger churches in Orlando and to make new friends 05:05 and new relationships there. 05:06 Jennifer: So when did you move? 05:08 Joel: This was just two years ago. 05:09 David: 2015. 05:11 Jennifer: Yeah, so we've both recently left Philadelphia 05:13 and are still mourning. 05:14 Joel: Yes... I will always be a Philadelphian... 05:18 but... but... you know... it was... 05:20 there were lots of good reasons for the relocation, so, 05:23 it was a nice change of pace... 05:25 but we noticed that there were some differences 05:29 in the feel at our... the new congregations 05:33 we were visiting compared to our home church 05:37 and we thought that some of these differences 05:40 were related to the size 05:43 because we went from a relatively small church 05:45 and there were very large churches down there 05:47 but we couldn't quite put our finger 05:50 on what the other issues were 05:53 and it really became evident 05:56 mostly when there were issues of some sort of social unrest 06:01 in particular, one of the things that had happened 06:06 while we were in Orlando, 06:10 there was the Charleston shooting 06:13 where someone walked in to a group 06:17 that was having prayer meeting 06:18 and killed people that were in the midst of prayer meeting, 06:23 actually people that had welcomed him in... 06:26 it was a... the young white man into a black congregation 06:31 and it was a terrible thing... 06:33 it happened on a Wednesday night... 06:34 Wednesday night prayer meeting... 06:35 something that everyone was used to 06:37 and it was a tragedy... 06:40 and we expected... 06:41 when we went to church the following Sabbath... 06:46 to hear some condolences 06:49 and some mention of the tragedy... 06:50 Shelly: Or an explanation for the unexplainable... 06:53 David: And why did you have that expectation? 06:55 Joel: Because if... at our church in Philadelphia, 06:57 that would have been... 06:59 something... we probably would have mentioned it. 07:01 David: So you're saying, in one church where you came from 07:03 if something like that happens... 07:04 Jean: Appreciation of humanity, that one would expect there. 07:08 David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then there's a silence... okay. 07:11 Joel: Yeah, so it was a little strange and a little off-putting 07:15 just because I go to church for a sense of community 07:22 and a sense of comfort 07:24 and it just felt like, "Okay, well maybe... 07:26 even though there are 800 other people in these pews, 07:29 maybe I don't quite fit in here, I don't know. 07:32 Jennifer: You start feeling like an outsider. 07:34 Joel: Yes. 07:36 Jennifer: And you felt very much like an insider 07:37 in your church in Philly. Joel: Yes. 07:39 Jennifer: Because something like that would have been processed 07:41 and it would have been talked about... 07:43 and there would have been empathy and support... 07:44 but here you are in a larger church 07:46 and you're not sure why... but it's not being processed 07:49 and as a result, you don't feel like an insider. 07:52 Joel: Absolutely, absolutely. 07:53 Shelly: Or at least maybe a mention of... 07:55 "As we gather for prayer today, let's remember... " 07:58 even a moment... 08:00 not even a moment... 08:02 Joel: Anything... 08:03 Jennifer: Like we said, crickets... 08:04 Joel: Yeah, there were crickets and it wasn't... 08:07 I was very careful... again... because everything's brand new 08:12 and so, you don't know what's what 08:15 but it's been two years now 08:17 and for most of these types of occasions... 08:20 we know what's been going on in America, 08:22 there have been all kinds of things going on... 08:24 all kinds of stories in the news. 08:25 Just before we sat down here, 08:28 just last week, 08:29 there was another terrible shooting of a young black man 08:33 by a cop who... fortunately they arrested him right away 08:36 but yeah... it was another inexplicable thing 08:39 and these things have been going on all along 08:41 but those are the types of things 08:43 that just weren't being translated... 08:45 weren't being addressed or looked at. 08:47 David: And so, what I hear you saying is that 08:48 and Dr. Wright has pointed this out... 08:51 that it doesn't matter the church you go to 08:56 as Christians, we should... 08:58 when something tragic like that takes place... 09:01 there should be something that is said in respect for humanity 09:06 and what I hear you saying is that... 09:08 in one church that took place in the other... that didn't... 09:10 and it made you feel uncomfortable. 09:12 Joel: Absolutely. David: Okay, okay... 09:14 Jean: If I could ask a question, Joel, 09:16 I mean, there's a lot of social unrest as you indicated... 09:19 not just in the last two years but forever... in America... 09:22 and so, people become uncomfortable 09:25 in discussing things... 09:27 as Jennifer alluded to in her opening... 09:29 people just want to move on... and, you know, 09:31 "If I'm white... my ancestors did whatever they did 09:33 but, you know, I didn't do it so let's just move on... " 09:35 and there are African Americans who will also say, 09:38 "You know, that was a long time ago, 09:39 it doesn't affect me anymore... " 09:41 and I think both are wrong... 09:42 I think the one condition unique about the United States 09:44 is that we're one of the few countries 09:45 that identify people by color, 09:47 as opposed to class... or something else... 09:49 no other country I've been to... or people I've talked to 09:52 defined people as black or white as a color... 09:55 they usually identify them in other ways 09:57 and so, my question to you is, "In this new congregation, 10:00 were you able to discuss other social injustices 10:04 that did not involve race? 10:06 There are other things going on in the world 10:08 that do not involve race... 10:09 was your congregation up to that task? 10:12 Joel: It's very interesting because 10:14 as many people know... in Orlando, there was a larger 10:19 I'll say, a larger atrocity... 10:23 Jennifer: Involving LGBT... 10:26 Joel: Yes, during the Pulse nightclub shooting... 10:29 Jennifer: In the nightclub... 10:30 Joel: It was a very big event because... it... 10:36 again... it was in the community 10:38 and there were many people that lost their lives 10:42 and it was interesting to see 10:44 which churches in the communities responded 10:46 and how they responded... 10:48 and I was happy to see some of the churches 10:53 that responded very swiftly and very actively 10:57 whether it was just a prayer meeting 11:00 or sending Counselors out... 11:02 so this particular church... they did send a Counselor out 11:08 but it felt a little quiet still within... 11:13 because, I think, like... we started off with... 11:15 it is a difficult... another difficult issue... 11:17 another thing... 11:18 but it just... it came back to me 11:21 that when you're talking about color or other issues, 11:27 it really shouldn't matter, 11:31 the sympathy and the empathy should be there... 11:35 because we're Christians and we love... 11:38 we're supposed to love as Jesus loved 11:41 so, it doesn't matter, who or what or when... 11:44 if there's a tragedy to anyone, within the congregation 11:47 or outside of the congregation, 11:49 there should be expressions of love 11:51 and expressions of sympathy. 11:52 Shelly: Jesus came alongside others and He wept with them 11:55 He didn't say, 11:56 "I'm not sure about what was going on and how this happened" 12:00 He came alongside and He wept with them. 12:03 David: Yes, and that's one thing that Jesus was criticized of... 12:06 looking at all the people groups that He would hang out with 12:08 and they criticized Him for that... 12:10 and if we want to reflect Jesus, 12:12 then we should have that same 12:13 active attitude for all humanity. 12:16 Jean: Yeah, we need to have the courage to address those issues 12:19 and I think, what the love is... loving we can do. 12:21 Jennifer: What can we do to... 12:23 what can white people do 12:25 to help black people feel more comfortable 12:27 in the church context? 12:29 I mean, because there's this historic wound 12:31 and like I said, it can be passed... 12:34 trauma can be passed down genetically 12:36 I mean, it's there... it's the elephant in the room 12:39 and if we just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, 12:42 it doesn't go away, you know, "Hello... " 12:44 so what can we do to let you know 12:47 that we don't want to repeat history, 12:49 we want to be friends with you, 12:51 we don't want this to happen over, 12:53 we don't want you to project on to us 12:55 what's happened to you in the past... 12:56 we want to make a fresh start, 12:58 what can we do to get that to happen 13:00 and to assure you of that. 13:01 David: And as you answer that question, 13:03 what I'd like to hear... and I'm Latin American... 13:06 so I'm a minority too is... in response to her question, 13:10 I just don't want to see something external 13:12 because we all can do things externally, 13:15 but something that really changes the heart... 13:18 Jean: An internal change... David: An internal change... 13:20 Jennifer: You know Joel, my approach... 13:21 I was in Philly for 15 years 13:23 and I was in a black church for 15 years 13:25 and I would talk openly about stuff 13:26 and I would be told, "No, you should be color blind" 13:28 but I'm like, "No, it's here... it's real... " 13:31 and I would just be really open 13:34 and I would go to places in Philly 13:36 where there would be obviously prejudice against me 13:39 because it was the "black part of town" 13:41 and at first it was offensive to me... and I would think, 13:43 "Well, I didn't do anything here why are you treating me this way 13:45 I'm going to go to your Manager and tell on you... " 13:47 you know... but then I thought, 13:48 "You know what? I can take that from them... 13:50 because look at what my people did to their people... 13:52 I'm not taking it personally, I'm going to just let it lie 13:55 because what they're really doing there is expressing pain, 13:57 it's not against me personally, it's their pain coming out... 14:00 and I'm going to interpret it that way... " 14:02 and things went much better for me in Philly 14:04 as a result of that attitude because I learned... 14:07 but what can we do to help you feel like we care 14:10 because I, as a white person, can tell you, 14:12 it's been easier for me... 14:15 I haven't suffered exactly what you've suffered 14:18 maybe in another form, I have... 14:20 but I may not be as sensitive as I need to be 14:23 but I want to be... I'm committed to be... 14:27 and sometimes I feel like... 14:29 people aren't assuming 14:31 that I'll be indifferent when I'm really not... 14:33 so how can I show you that I care 14:35 and how can we move forward? 14:37 Well, I think that part of the issue is for all of us... 14:43 everyone to recognize that that bias exists 14:47 and that... that... that... 14:50 it can be difficult for people 14:53 because everybody wants to say, "Oh, no, I'm not prejudiced... 14:55 I don't have anything against whites... 14:57 or I don't have anything against blacks 14:58 or against Hispanics... " 15:00 but we all have biases in some form or another... 15:02 and so that... that instant identification of color... 15:05 black or white... that's part of the bias... 15:07 and that's not... 15:09 it's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself... 15:12 but failing to recognize those biases 15:15 usually causes problems. 15:17 Jennifer: So, number one, admit it... 15:18 Joel: Yeah... again... yes... 15:20 David: That it exists... admit that it exists. 15:22 Joel: Admit that it's an issue. David: Yeah... it is. 15:24 Jennifer: But do I have to admit that I'm a racist? 15:27 Joel: You have to admit that you have biases... 15:31 and that we live in a biased society... 15:33 Jennifer: So it would be helpful if I said, 15:35 "Look, I may have unconscious biases 15:37 but you may see me acting a certain way... 15:39 maybe I'm acting out of my blind spot 15:41 and I am giving preferential treatment to white people, 15:45 I'm gravitating toward people that look like me, 15:47 and forgive me for that because I don't know myself 15:49 fully yet, as a human being... " 15:52 would that be helpful? 15:53 Joel: That would be very helpful and... 15:55 you know, what's helpful for me even right now... 15:58 is that we're all at this table right now 16:01 just discussing it... 16:03 Shelly: And people are watching and benefiting from it, 16:06 because they're thinking about what we're talking about, right? 16:09 Joel: And knowing that it can be discussed 16:13 and as long as people are open and honest 16:16 and willing to discuss these things, 16:20 that's the most important thing, 16:22 that's why I said, "Nobody... " 16:24 I was never feeling like somebody needed to stand up 16:27 in the church and start a donation fund 16:30 or do anything like that, 16:32 but just being able to say, "Hey, this tragedy has occurred" 16:36 and recognizing these things 16:38 and I think part of the historical problem is that... 16:41 is not recognizing that these things have happened in the past 16:46 and that they have shaped the Systems in which we now live 16:49 and have helped color our thoughts 16:52 and the things that we do 16:54 so, you mentioned a few statistics at the beginning 16:56 another great statistic that just came out... 16:58 in 2016... 99 percent of all students that were handcuffed 17:03 in New York City Schools 17:06 were African American or Latino... 99 percent... 17:10 okay, and they make up less than 60 percent 17:14 of the school population 17:15 but they were still... much more likely to be handcuffed 17:18 than anyone else 17:20 and these things aren't necessarily 17:22 because we talked about... 17:23 I didn't do this or that to their ancestors... 17:27 well, those things... they did happen in the past 17:31 and they do "color" our understanding... 17:34 Jennifer: The numbers speak... 17:36 Joel: Yeah, the numbers speak 17:37 and so, it's recognizing that those things do exist 17:39 and how do we... how do we address this? 17:41 Jennifer: So, I have been told 17:43 by black people in my congregation 17:45 that I acted in a racist manner 17:46 and that was difficult for me because I don't... 17:50 if there... there... it may be true I have a blind spot 17:53 I don't realize unconsciously what I'm doing... 17:55 but for them to step into my blind spot 17:58 and start telling me what's going on inside me 18:00 feels invasive... 18:01 and so, I have a difficult time with that, 18:04 however, I have gone online 18:07 and I encourage people to do this, 18:08 go online and take an "Implicit Bias Test" 18:11 and those things will scare you to death 18:13 because you realize that you're more racist than you realized 18:16 because what they do is they... 18:17 they're set up in such a way 18:19 that you have to make a decision so quickly 18:21 that it's only your unconscious mind that is making the decision 18:23 you can't think through it because the mind moves slower 18:26 and it shows you that maybe you have more prejudices 18:29 than you wanted to believe you did... scary stuff... 18:32 David: And so what do we do when we recognize that? 18:35 Jennifer: We need to jump off a cliff... 18:36 Laughter... 18:37 Jennifer: We go to our brothers and say, 18:40 "You know, I might be more awful than I realize but I love you. 18:43 David: Part of it is crying out to the Lord and saying, 18:46 "Lord, you know... this exists in me... " 18:47 Jean: Well, I think it's important to go back 18:49 to something that Jennifer hit on... 18:50 and I don't think it's the responsibility 18:53 of "the dominant culture" 18:55 to try to make the 18:57 communities of color feel more comfortable, I think... 19:02 and I intentionally do not use color to describe people 19:05 but I don't think it's... I don't think that's the issue, 19:08 "How can I make you feel comfortable with me?" 19:10 Or "How can I make you feel better about being with me 19:13 "or make you feel... " to me that's patronizing... 19:16 and what it really comes down to is... 19:19 going back to the Christianity aspect of it 19:21 and humanity aspect of it, 19:23 "How can me... myself... just me... 19:26 not my race... not my ancestors... 19:28 me... how can I love you 19:31 in the way that you need to be loved?" 19:33 "How can I respect you in the way 19:35 that you need to be respected?" 19:37 Jennifer: But don't you think that demands 19:39 that I recognize that there's some collective wounds? 19:40 Jean: Yeah, but I don't think you do it in a way by saying, 19:43 "How can I make black people feel comfortable with me?" 19:44 Or, "How do I make white people comfortable with me?" 19:46 Jennifer: It can be very patronizing. 19:47 Jean: Yeah, it's an individual thing... 19:49 and if you as an individual take stock of your space 19:52 and what you do and what you bring to the table 19:53 and your presentation stimulus... 19:55 that will take care of itself, 19:56 it is not your responsibility 19:58 for the other people who look like you 19:59 to do the same thing, each individual has to do it. 20:03 Shelly: We start right here, 20:04 we can't start on such a broad... 20:06 Jean: Right, I'd start with me... 20:08 Jennifer: I do think white people need to repent 20:10 for what they did to black people collectively. 20:13 David: Okay, you know, and here we're saying... 20:15 and I'll be very brief... because, 20:18 growing up in Brooklyn, New York and that's where I'm from, 20:21 and I'm not proud to say this, 20:22 my father, for some time... said he didn't like black people 20:26 and you know... 20:27 here we are... living in a black-Spanish neighborhood... 20:29 but one person's act of love changed that 20:32 and this is what happened... 20:34 he was out in the street 20:36 and a Hispanic brother 20:39 was robbing him... 20:42 so my father... 20:43 these are two Spanish men... 20:45 and one Spanish man is robbing another... 20:47 and the guy took out a knife 20:49 and he was going to stab my father... 20:50 well, a black man saw it and you know what he did? 20:53 He saved my father's life... 20:55 my father comes home... he's weeping... 20:57 and he starts telling us... 20:59 "You know, I was wrong... " 21:01 so that act of love changed his heart. 21:06 Jean: Yes... yes... 21:07 David: And that's what you're talking about... 21:10 one man's action... 21:11 Jean: Absolutely... can change your total perspective 21:13 on the whole group of people 21:15 and unfortunately, one negative action 21:17 can make you feel a certain way about a group of people. 21:20 Jennifer: We've had a lot of the negative ones, 21:21 we want more of those kinds of stories... 21:23 so that's powerful story... thank God for that. 21:25 David: It changed his life... and he was weeping... 21:27 and he said, "I was so mistaken... " 21:29 he said, "I could be dead today... 21:30 but he saved my life... " 21:33 Joel: And that story reminds me of Jesus... 21:40 and... while He and the disciples were traveling along, 21:45 a woman came yelling after them... 21:47 "Lord, my daughter is possessed by a demon... 21:54 help me... help me out... " 21:57 and Jesus continued to walk 21:59 while this woman is crying out to him... 22:02 and the disciples... out of their cultural bias, 22:06 out of their prejudices... because she was a woman... 22:10 she was a Gentile... 22:12 and who knows how many other things... 22:15 they wanted to ignore her, okay, 22:18 and wanted Jesus to tell her to go away 22:21 and what did Jesus do? 22:23 He kind of followed through... He played along with them... 22:27 Jennifer: He knew she had enough faith to get through it. 22:29 Joel: Exactly. 22:31 Jennifer: And she said, "Even the dogs get the crumbs" 22:34 He said, "I've come for the lost sheep of Israel... 22:36 I've not come for you... you're outside of my... " 22:38 and she said, "Even dogs get the crumbs 22:40 that fall from the Master's table. " 22:41 Joel: So, it's just... it's an incredible story 22:44 because Jesus understood two things, 22:47 He understood the pain of this woman 22:49 and He understood the situation of the disciples 22:54 and their cultural biases... 22:56 and He was looking for a way to break through 23:00 so He acted as if He had the same feelings 23:03 and understanding the same biases that they had... 23:06 but in the end... He... He... evaluating this woman's faith... 23:11 He was able to give her what she needed 23:14 while at the same time 23:16 giving the disciples a demonstration 23:19 and I think that that's... Jennifer, in asking 23:22 "What can we do?" 23:24 Okay, sometimes we have to do the same 23:27 and we have to find ways to show people... 23:29 to show ourselves 23:32 and other people in our congregations 23:34 that... "Look, this is... 23:36 you've got the wrong point of view here... 23:38 this is how it needs to be adjusted... " 23:40 and that's how Jesus approached it. 23:42 Jean: Do you think it would be worth the risk 23:44 to go to your congregation and say something like that? 23:47 And saying, "Oh, there's a lot of social adjustments... " 23:49 Jennifer: I know what church he goes to and I'm like, "whew. " 23:51 Jean: I mean, just take the risk... 23:52 just point out that there are social injustices going around, 23:56 I think we could do something positive. 23:58 Jennifer: Do you think that they don't want to talk about things 24:00 that could become politically charged 24:03 or, do you think it's selective? 24:05 Joel: No, I think it is... most congregations... 24:09 even smaller congregations... 24:12 they like things to move straight across a status quo... 24:16 and so, in some ways you can understand how... 24:22 why they might feel that way 24:24 but then, sometimes things can't go status quo 24:28 there was a status quo again... 24:30 Jesus walked in to church one day 24:33 and He looked around and He said, "What are you doing?" 24:36 And Jesus... the Creator of the universe... 24:39 decided to make a home-made whip... 24:41 and go ahead and start... 24:43 Jennifer: Rustle it up a little bit... 24:45 Joel: Yeah... He really got into it. 24:47 Jennifer: He wasn't afraid of uncomfortable moments. 24:49 Joel: He was not afraid of uncomfortable moments 24:51 and He was not afraid to speak about it in church... 24:54 and to let everybody know... 24:56 so, sometimes we... we have to understand... 24:58 "Yes, there will be uncomfortable moments... " 25:00 and sometimes the Leadership has to... 25:02 has to reach out like that. 25:03 All: Hmmm... Jennifer: Yeah. 25:05 David: So, as Christians we need to know when to take the risk 25:09 and how to go about taking that risk... just like Christ did 25:13 and that's what you're saying. 25:15 Jennifer: So, give us some pointers... 25:16 you have about a minute and a half... 25:17 so give us some pointers, how... what can we do? 25:20 What risks can we take? 25:21 Joel: Definitely, risk dialogue, okay, and... 25:25 and risk being open... and sitting down... 25:29 even if it has to start in small groups 25:31 and taking the risk... 25:34 maybe this is really the only thing... 25:37 taking the risk to love... 25:39 Shelly: To fellowship together, 25:40 like... what we're doing right now. 25:42 Jennifer: Like, the fact... 25:43 part of the problem is that we do stay segregated... 25:45 we do gravitate to people that look like us... 25:49 maybe we should challenge that... 25:50 maybe we should say, "You know what? 25:53 I'm going to go join a black church for a while... 25:54 just want to know these people... " 25:57 I grew up in an all-white world, 25:59 I was uncomfortable with that by the time I was 16... 26:02 but I had no idea what to do about it... 26:04 and all I could do was... 26:06 my black cleaning lady came every week 26:08 and I would go to her... I had nothing to say to her... 26:10 she was from a totally different world... 26:11 but I'd say, "Do you want a glass of orange juice?" 26:13 And she'd say, "Yes... " 26:15 and I'd give her a glass of orange juice... that's all I did 26:17 but I was trying... in my way... 26:19 to cross that chasm... 26:21 and sometimes... I'm an adult... and I can make choices... 26:24 to put myself in situations that will help me learn how to relate 26:29 to people that are different than me 26:30 and I think that's a mature choice... 26:32 Shelly: See you and I had so... completely different... 26:35 I grew up in Detroit... 26:37 I went to church with black people... 26:39 my context of learning about Jesus 26:41 and singing those beginning songs 26:44 is being surrounded by brothers and sisters 26:47 of all different colors and ethnicities... 26:49 so my beginning constructs... 26:51 like, my picture of heaven is going back to that 26:54 so this is pretty emotional for me... so... 26:57 Jennifer: And you know it says that the Holy City... 27:00 the gates are open and the nations walk in and out 27:02 and that word is ethnos... 27:04 so we have... heaven to look forward to... 27:06 where we will all mingle... 27:08 but I find that even on earth 27:10 when we worship multi-culturally, 27:12 there's an energy and a power that comes into that... 27:15 that we're really... when we're homogenous racially 27:19 we really don't benefit as much, I think, 27:21 so we need to take proactive choices to mingle... 27:24 and to get to know one another. 27:26 I want to challenge those of you 27:28 that have been part of this Program... 27:30 to go home... 27:31 and if you're computer literate enough to do this, 27:33 put in the search engine: Implicit Bias 27:36 and take an Implicit Bias Test, they're free... 27:39 and it will show you that maybe you're not as completely 27:43 free of prejudice as you thought you were 27:44 and then go to your Bible 27:45 and see what the Bible says about racism... 27:48 and make a decision by the grace of God... 27:50 to do everything you can in your life 27:52 to overturn this great evil that has come upon our Society, 27:56 God is love... 27:58 and part of that love is crossing those divides. |
Revised 2017-08-24