Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), David Guerrero, Dr. Jean Wright II, Michael Carducci, Shelley Wiggins
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000023A
|
00:26 We are taking on the hot topic today
00:29 at the Multitude of Counselors Program 00:32 and the title of our Program is: Coming out. 00:35 Yes, we're going to be talking about homosexuality. 00:38 Let me define it first. 00:41 Same-sex attraction called homosexuality 00:43 is being attracted to one's own sex. 00:46 In some cases, this may be quite fixed and inflexible, 00:52 in other cases, 00:53 individuals are attracted both ways... 00:55 to both sexes... 00:56 in other cases, 00:58 individuals may have that mindset for a period of time 01:02 or that preference for a period of time 01:04 and they may be able to transition, 01:05 it does happen 01:06 or they may have begun their life journey 01:09 opposite-sex attracted... 01:12 and moved into the same-sex lifestyle and attraction, 01:15 sexuality is quite flexible 01:17 and there are sources both within Christian thinking 01:22 and outside of Christian pro-gay thinking 01:26 that acknowledge that. 01:27 So we're just saying that there is some flexibility here. 01:30 What about prevalence? 01:32 From what I understand and the statistics I've looked at, 01:36 about 3.5 percent of the population 01:39 is either homosexual, lesbian or bisexual. 01:42 We haven't yet identified a "gay gene" or "gay brain" 01:47 but some... in my thinking... 01:49 some biological factors could be at play... 01:52 for instance, there is something called 01:54 "Fraternal Birth Order Effect" the summary... 01:59 each subsequent son a woman bears, 02:02 has a greater likelihood of turning out homosexual, 02:07 now, that could be from issues that are not biological, 02:10 because the older brother sexually abused the younger man, 02:14 we don't know exactly, 02:15 correlation does not equal causality 02:17 but there could be some biological factors at play 02:20 because the brain is a complex organ. 02:22 Traumas of various kinds 02:26 can predispose an individual to homosexuality. 02:30 Attachment styles of parents can predispose individuals 02:34 to attachment-styles prevalent in same-sex partner populations. 02:39 Same-sexual abuse can erotize same-sex relationships 02:44 so there are a number of causative factors. 02:46 What about prognosis and treatments? 02:48 Well, this is where things get difficult 02:51 because in 1973, the American Psychiatric Association 02:55 took homosexuality out of the diagnostic manual 02:58 so it is not considered by the APA to be a disorder 03:01 so, we're walking on egg shells here, 03:04 trying to parse this thing out correctly 03:07 but, having said that, 03:10 individuals that have same-sex attraction, 03:13 can't necessarily pray the "gay" away 03:16 and so, we're trying to be very realistic about this. 03:19 just because an individual may choose 03:21 to come out the gay lifestyle as our guest today has done 03:24 does not mean that poof... as soon as he makes that choice, 03:28 he's opposite sex attracted... 03:29 and, of course, he's going to be unpacking that 03:31 much better than I could... 03:32 the title of our talk today... 03:34 our Program today is: Coming Out 03:36 and our guest is Michael Carducci. 03:38 I love you Michael... Michael: I love you too. 03:39 Jennifer: I'm so glad you're here, 03:41 thank you for doing just about every hairstyle 03:43 in this whole place... you're awesome. 03:44 We also have a wonderful panel of Counselors, 03:47 we have David... Biblical Counselor, 03:50 David Guerrero from Wisconsin, 03:52 we have Licensed Professional Counselor, 03:54 Shelly Wiggins from Michigan 03:56 and Dr. Jean Wright from Philadelphia. 03:58 Thank you, each one of you, for coming to our Program today. 04:01 So, let's get into the story, you have an amazing story 04:04 get us started... start it right in the beginning, right? 04:08 Sure, yeah, well, it's interesting 04:09 because when I tell my story, it begins with my father. 04:12 My dad was in the Navy, 04:13 he'd be gone three to six months at a time, 04:16 my dad was Italian and known for his temper 04:19 so, when my dad was home, 04:21 he was abusive and loud and angry 04:23 so, that was a little frightening when he was home, 04:25 but for the most part, 04:26 it was just my sisters and my mom and me 04:29 when my dad would be out of town for three to six months 04:31 so, very early on... 04:34 and this was a lightning bolt idea for me 04:37 is when I heard that "Defensive Detachment" 04:39 can happen even before the ages of consciousness, 04:42 so, between the ages of one and three 04:44 when most of the boys start to recognize 04:45 that they're not like their moms 04:47 and they wear baseball caps like their dad, 04:49 because they're identifying with their gender, 04:51 my dad wasn't available or he was loud and angry 04:54 so, for me, even before I was conscious, 04:56 I detached from my father as my role model 04:59 and so, the only one left was my mom. 05:00 And so that's called the sense of "Detachment" yeah. 05:04 So, people would ask me, "Mike, were you born gay?" 05:07 And I would think back 05:08 and I couldn't imagine a time when I wasn't different, 05:11 I knew that when I started Grade School, 05:13 that I was different than the other boys 05:14 and they were quick to remind me or to pigeon-hole me 05:18 and call me, "Sissy, Queer, Fagot... " 05:20 so, all of these were... were... 05:23 all of these comments along with the behaviors at home 05:27 were locking me into this identity 05:29 that I didn't necessarily want but I felt like I had no choice 05:31 and I felt that I was born that way. 05:34 Jennifer: Hmmm... hmmm... wow! 05:37 At what age did you feel like you were born that way? 05:39 I was six years old when I knew 05:41 that I was different than the other kids in school. 05:43 I didn't have same-sex attraction 05:45 but I had this... I had this innate curiosity 05:48 about what men were like 05:49 and because my dad was so absent in the home... 05:52 Jennifer: So unavailable. 05:53 Michael: Right, right, right, so I had this curiosity about 05:55 what would it be like to see, you know, a man naked... 05:58 but it wasn't sexualized and I was never abused as a kid. 06:01 Shelly: When did it switch from... 06:04 you knew something was different 06:06 to becoming sexualized 06:09 you talked about your early teenage years. 06:10 Michael: Sure, it's interesting, I have a story that I tell... 06:14 I was... I went to ten schools within twelve years 06:17 with my education... 06:18 in Third Grade, I went to three different schools 06:20 so, even if I got a friend that was a male... 06:22 you know, a healthy, masculine identity... 06:25 you know, guys just playing together with guys 06:27 because girls are gross 06:28 because during those developmental years, 06:30 all of it is masculinity affirming masculinity 06:34 so I didn't have that 06:35 so I had this curiosity but most of the time, 06:37 I was playing with the girls, I was a great jump-roper 06:40 and hopscotch player so I went to the school, 06:43 I remember, it was in Dearborn, Michigan 06:45 and the school system was so wealthy 06:47 that they actually had built-in swimming pools 06:49 in their school districts 06:51 and I remember in Eighth Grade, 06:52 getting ready to go to Gym Class 06:54 and the boys had the swimming pool for a week 06:56 and then the girls would have it 06:57 so I'm putting on my bathing suit 06:59 and I realize that none of the other guys are 07:01 Eighth Grade... that's what? 14 years old... 07:03 I'm still a late bloomer and I'm a short little guy 07:06 that's been taunted and teased all my life 07:08 and so I put on my bathing suit 07:09 and realized that nobody else did 07:11 well then, I got snapped with towels 07:13 and taunted and teased until I took off my bathing suit 07:16 so here I am... 07:17 Jennifer: And they were all naked. 07:19 Michael: Everyone was naked and this was just expected 07:21 so here we are doing jumping jacks on the side of the pool 07:24 and pairing up for sit-ups... 07:25 so what that did is... 07:26 that heightened the gender dysphoria that I had 07:29 because again, I thought that I should have been a girl... 07:32 I thought that God made a mistake 07:33 but I thought that God was so arbitrary... 07:36 it's like, "Mmmm... no Mike, 07:37 I did it because I wanted to... " 07:39 and I would pray that God would change me, 07:41 I would pray that I would wake up the next day 07:42 and I would be a girl 07:44 and then everything would be okay. 07:45 So, here I am in Eight Grade... 07:47 the emasculation was so strong that that was actually the year 07:51 that I remember my desire to be a female was the strongest. 07:54 I grew my hair up past my shoulders, 07:56 I remember, walking out into the backyard 07:59 in the night... in a bathrobe, 08:00 fantasizing as the wind would blow through the robe 08:03 like, it was a dress and through my hair... 08:05 but I believe now... looking back 08:07 that that was also the height of the emasculation 08:10 that I was experiencing even in the school. 08:12 If they have rules now that they would actually intervene 08:16 for a child like me 08:17 and that if I expressed that I was transgender 08:20 and that I wanted to be a girl, 08:22 that the Government would step in 08:23 and start giving me the hormone therapy 08:25 so that I could transition to be the female 08:27 that I always felt that I needed to be, 08:29 however, when I was 20 years old and came out in the Gay culture, 08:33 again, up until 20... I believed that I needed to become a woman 08:36 to be right with God and to also be right with Society, 08:39 but at 20-years-old... when I came out into the Gay bars, 08:42 I realized, "Wow! masculinity is more desirable than femininity 08:46 so if I just butch it up a little bit 08:47 and work out in the gyms... " 08:49 then I found that I got all of the male attention 08:51 that I was desperate for... and the Gender Dysphoria was gone 08:54 so if I would have mutilated my body 08:56 to make it appear more feminine, 08:58 can you imagine the private purgatory 09:01 that I would have been in now with the situation of where... 09:04 "Oh wow! now I'm not either and I'm a mess" and... 09:07 and the rejection I'm sure would have been even stronger. 09:10 Giving children puberty suppressing hormones 09:14 to delay puberty is just shocking to me but I guess... 09:16 Michael: And they're going to be on these hormones 09:19 for the rest of their lives 09:20 and that in itself is life threatening. 09:22 Jennifer: Yeah, and we don't know the long-term effect... 09:24 from what I understand on the bones 09:26 and, you know hormones are pretty potent. 09:29 Shelly: No doubt that this is a hot topic 09:32 and there are so many facets to this 09:35 but Michael, take us a little further into your story... 09:39 you... from High School... then you said... 09:42 you went into the full culture for... what... 20 years? 09:46 Michael: Hmmm... hmmm... yeah... 09:48 from 20 years old until 40. 09:49 Shelly: And then, something happened... 09:51 what... what happened? 09:53 Michael: At 40? 09:54 Jennifer: Well, tell us, whatever you want to tell us. 09:57 Shelly: We want your story. 09:58 Michael: Well, I thought that the best that I could give God 10:02 was that, if I had a monogamous relationship with one man, 10:05 that... that maybe God would understand 10:06 that this was the best that I could do. 10:08 Just before I went into the Gay culture, 10:10 I handpicked one guy in the church that I thought 10:12 I could share my story with 10:14 and it took months to pick him out, 10:16 every week at church, I would watch him 10:18 and I said, "He's the one... " 10:19 so, one night, after Prayer Meeting, 10:21 I sat down with him... he said, "What's up Mike?" 10:22 and I said, "Well, it has to do with women" 10:24 and before I even had a chance 10:27 to even say what what I was going to share, 10:29 he said something so derogatory about women 10:31 that I knew I wasn't safe, 10:32 there was no way I was going to share my secret with him, 10:35 I listened to him attentively, I thanked him for his time 10:38 and I walked out of church that night 10:39 and I said to God, "I'm done... 10:40 I can't get my sexuality and my religion to come together 10:44 this is what you give me... 10:45 to share my story with... or whatever... " 10:47 and I said, "I'm out of here... " 10:49 and that was when I turned and went into Gay culture 10:51 so, as I went into gay culture, I picked... 10:53 my first lover was someone very much like my father, 10:57 he had a lot of rage and anger, he was an alcoholic, 11:00 he was physically abusive, verbally abusive, 11:03 and he introduced me to all kinds of sexual things 11:07 that I never even considered or thought of 11:09 and within just a few short months, 11:10 I had become a sexual addict... 11:12 unfaithful in the five significant relationships 11:15 that I had within that 20-year period 11:17 and... and as time went on, 11:19 the addiction got deeper and darker. 11:21 Hmmm... Wow! 11:22 Then you had some kind of invitation from your sister 11:26 that you thought was a little odd one day... 11:29 This is what I hope that everyone will get 11:32 and the most powerful thing I think about my story is 11:35 what my sisters did on my behalf. 11:36 My sisters loved me unconditionally... 11:40 without a doubt... 11:41 and I thought that they accepted me 11:42 in my homosexual identity 11:45 because I think that they kind of believed as I did 11:47 that that was the only option that I had 11:49 they never restricted me 11:51 from interacting with my nieces and nephews, 11:53 they always invited my lovers and I... over for holiday meals 11:56 but they were praying for me, 11:58 they were intentionally praying for me 12:00 and if it hadn't been for their prayers... 12:02 because I wasn't praying for myself, 12:03 I wasn't broken... I didn't want anyone's pity 12:06 but they were secretly praying for me 12:08 but overtly loving me 12:09 and in that process, 12:11 God was able to reach down at the height 12:13 of my sexual addiction, at the height of my career, 12:16 I thought I had the world by the tail, 12:17 I had a rich boyfriend, 12:19 we both had convertible Mercedes, 12:20 houses with pools, condos on the lake, 12:22 I was doing television... people's hair... 12:24 it's like... it's like the enemy was giving me everything 12:27 but the Lord was still able to reach 12:30 and pass all of that through my sisters' prayers 12:33 and an invitation came 12:35 to where I accepted Jesus as my Savior 12:37 now there's a lot of detail that goes with that 12:38 but in essence, I believe that if we stop praying for people 12:43 that... if we accept this as an option from God... 12:47 or that God has changed His opinion according to His Word, 12:50 then when you stop praying for people like me... 12:52 then that cuts off any hope for them. 12:54 So the fact that your sister kept praying for you... 12:56 Michael: Sisters... 3 of them... 12:58 Jennifer: Three... so you end up accepting Jesus and then... 13:00 you left the lifestyle or...? 13:01 David: Well they were praying for you 13:03 but they were also showing love for you and not excluding you 13:05 and God's love was demonstrated to you. 13:08 Michael: One of my sisters was my assistant at my salon 13:10 and my lover and I owned the salon, 13:13 I had other gay hairdressers that worked for us, 13:15 she wasn't just that way to me... 13:16 she was that way to everyone 13:18 and that was why I thought that she accepted me 13:21 as a gay person, 13:23 I didn't think that she even had an issue with that, 13:25 but what was so amazing is the night before I got baptized... 13:28 and I came in just under the wire... 13:30 nobody knew that I was gay, I wasn't sharing that... 13:33 I came in on the last night and the preacher made a call 13:35 and that night... in the parking lot... my sister said, 13:37 "So, what are you going to do with your boyfriend?" 13:40 I looked at her and said, "Nothing, I'm gay... 13:42 I was born this way, I tried to change, 13:44 I prayed that God would heal me, that never happened... " 13:46 I said, "All I know... 13:48 is that Jesus loves me 13:49 and that's why I'm getting baptized. " 13:51 Shelly: Amen... amen... 13:52 Michael: All right, but... so the next day I was baptized 13:54 with a boyfriend and a sexual addiction. 13:56 Shelly: Then you began a process Michael: Thank you. 13:58 Shelly: A process began... people don't understand... 14:01 it's not an instant... or suddenly... 14:03 you began something and that was what... 17 years ago? 14:06 Michael: Yeah, so the event was... 14:08 is that... I went into the water and came out 14:11 making an open profession that I was following Jesus 14:14 and I'm sorry to say that in my limited understanding, 14:17 I wasn't accepting an invitation to be an Adventist, 14:20 I was accepting an invitation to follow Jesus. 14:22 Jennifer: Which should be the same thing. 14:24 Michael: Okay, but I think that 14:26 people really get bent about... a little bit 14:29 is the process... and I get it... 14:30 I don't think that any pastor should 14:32 knowingly baptize somebody who is openly gay... 14:35 but I believe that God was using it in a way 14:38 to begin this journey with me, 14:40 "God's ways are not our ways 14:42 and His thoughts are not our thoughts... " 14:44 so, all of a sudden, I'm baptized now 14:46 and my boyfriend is telling me 14:47 that my church doesn't believe in homosexual practice 14:50 and I said, "I don't care... " 14:51 but during that time... the Lord... 14:53 I was experiencing Him in a way 14:56 that I never experienced Him before 14:58 and it was invitational and it was loving... 15:01 it wasn't at all how I saw my father 15:04 and an example of what I thought what God was, 15:07 this arbitrary God that was looking to take me out 15:09 or to punish me and so, 15:11 I couldn't stop following that kind of God 15:14 and eventually, I prayed and I said, 15:16 "Lord, if you want me out of that relationship, 15:18 you're going to have to do it yourself... " 15:19 and three weeks later, my boyfriend and I... 15:21 we were holding each other and he said, 15:23 "You know, things have changed and... and I need a break... " 15:25 and this peace came over me and I knew 15:27 that the Lord had intervened in my life. 15:29 David: Amen. 15:30 Michael: But the hard part really came after that... 15:32 when I went home and realized that I was alone... 15:35 and that if God took away my boyfriend, 15:37 then He's telling me that... 15:38 that I can't have another boyfriend 15:40 and so, I'm not straight... my attractions haven't changed 15:43 and so I thought, 15:44 "Well, I'll never know what it's like to love again... " 15:46 and during that time, it was dark... 15:48 I couldn't share it with my sister, 15:49 she would have been overjoyed... 15:51 I couldn't share with my friends because they would have said, 15:53 "Mike, you're gay... go back to your boyfriend. " 15:55 So, during that time, it was just me and Jesus Christ 15:58 and I realize now that through my sobs... 16:00 that it was Jesus that was holding me 16:03 and I can even look back and feel His presence 16:07 and that was Jesus that was telling me 16:09 that He loved me, 16:10 and you know something? 16:12 There was great healing during that time for me. 16:14 David: So... so, Jesus brought you to a place 16:17 where you were alone with Him 16:19 so that He could love you. 16:21 Michael: Right... right... because you know something? 16:23 I was so busy filling my time with... 16:26 with any social engagement that I could 16:28 because I really hated to be alone 16:31 and to have look at not only who I'd become 16:34 but also the fact that I was this desperate, lonely person 16:37 even in the gay culture, 16:38 even when I was surrounded by friends and lovers 16:41 that I thought loved me and took care of me. 16:44 Jennifer: How much did the conviction that this was wrong 16:49 fuel or enable or strengthen you to make those changes? 16:53 Michael: Whew! 16:55 Jennifer: I know, it's a hard one. 16:56 Michael: I went kicking and screaming... you know, 16:58 some people say, "Oh... it's like a... 16:59 you know, you flip the switch... 17:00 and okay... I'm going to go in this direction... " 17:02 you know, I didn't think that it was possible 17:04 and because of what I'd been hearing from the world... 17:07 and then even... because of examples 17:09 that I never saw in the church, 17:10 I didn't think it was possible 17:12 and so, I thought that God would miraculously 17:14 have a magic wand to hit me over the head 17:17 and I'd be straight... 17:18 ready to date, mate and procreate... 17:20 but again, that didn't happen and so I thought, 17:23 "I must be doing something wrong... " 17:26 again, coming from a works-oriented 17:28 you know... beginning or life 17:31 I thought that I had to be good to deserve God's goodness 17:34 and so, in that misunderstanding, 17:36 Jesus was so patient and 17:38 there were times that I would even act out 17:40 because I was so used to the rejection of my father, 17:43 the rejection of the kids, the rejection of lovers 17:45 and the people that I allowed to use me that I used, 17:48 it's like, I thought, "It's just a matter of time 17:50 and Jesus is going to get sick of me too 17:52 and so, I would act out sexually and I would come back to God, 17:55 and I would just say, 17:57 "Well, that's who I am... you still want me?" 18:00 And I did it defiantly and rebelliously to basically say, 18:03 "Well, let's get this over with because there's no way 18:06 that I'm going to be everything you want to be. " 18:07 Jennifer: "You're going to hate me now. " 18:09 Michael: Yeah, "If you're going to hate me, 18:10 hate me now rather than later. " 18:12 And you know what? What was so powerful 18:13 was that Jesus' answer to me 18:14 was the same every time, He said, "I'm not rejecting you, 18:17 I'm staying... I've already paid for that... " 18:20 Shelly: So you were trying to, like create some self-rejection 18:24 and push away and just push and push... 18:25 Michael: I was used to that, every man in my life... 18:27 beginning with my father... now, Jesus is a man... 18:30 so, doesn't it make sense? 18:32 And I think that the really sad part of my sexual addiction was 18:35 was really the fulfillment of Proverbs 27... 18:37 where it talks about... 18:39 that if you've had a full meal, you don't eat dessert... 18:41 but to somebody who's starving, 18:42 even something bitter will satisfy 18:44 and so, my sexual addiction began 18:46 because I was just genuinely wanting to be loved by a man, 18:50 but what I found is that it wasn't satisfying that emptiness 18:53 and so, it began this addictive drive 18:55 where I was acting out three times a day 18:57 and as many times as four times a week 18:58 and 20 years of that, 19:00 I had sex with men unprotected... 19:02 and they'd be dead three months later 19:04 and yet, that was never enough to stop me from my behavior. 19:08 David: And so, you wanted to be loved by a man 19:11 and a man loved you... His name was Jesus. 19:13 Michael: And I can't believe... what's so profound to me... 19:16 I can't believe that the love of Jesus 19:18 is enough to keep me from acting out sexually 19:21 when nothing else did. 19:22 I could have a man in my bed and it still didn't stop me 19:26 but having Jesus in my heart has been an experience where... 19:29 Jennifer: When you say, "I could have a man... " 19:31 you could be a couple with someone 19:33 and you would still go outside that relationship... 19:35 Michael: Yeah, I still couldn't be faithful... 19:36 David: Until Christ came in. 19:38 Shelly: Are you saying it wasn't fulfilling enough? 19:40 It was empty... what...? 19:43 Michael: When I go back to that person who I was, 19:45 I thought that it was... 19:46 I thought that, "Well, I just didn't have any discipline" 19:49 and I wasn't going to pass up an opportunity 19:53 it was kind of the total... self-focused... 19:56 well... and part of it was like taking care of myself 19:59 and again, because of so much rejection in gay culture, 20:02 it's like, "You'd better get what you're going to get... 20:04 because... pretty soon you'll be bald and fat and old 20:07 and you're not going to get any action... " 20:09 because... in gay culture... 20:10 by the time you're 30, you're considered a "has been. " 20:13 You don't see anybody in gay culture over 40 years old 20:15 because they've either died 20:17 or they don't go out in public anymore, 20:19 it's a highly... 20:20 Jennifer: Visual... Michael: Absolutely... 20:22 Jennifer: Which is... men tend to be wired visually 20:25 in the sexual arena. 20:26 Michael: Exactly... exactly. Jen: I have a question for you. 20:28 Michael: Yeah. 20:29 Jennifer: So you came out... at what age? 20:31 You came out of the lifestyle at what age? 20:32 Michael: 40... 20:33 Jennifer: came out of the lifestyle at 40... 20:36 your high levels of hormones... 20:39 testosterone had tapered off somewhat by that age... 20:41 and you successfully left... 20:43 Michael: Really... really Jennifer... 20:45 even as a sexual addict 20:48 and even you can take somebody who is a sexual addict 20:51 and you can make them a eunuch but it doesn't change the mind 20:54 and my mind was so turned 20:56 towards sexual and sensualized things that... 20:58 Jennifer: So tell us about the battle. 21:00 Michael: Okay, well let me give you an example. 21:02 It was after the Lord had removed the boyfriend 21:04 I made sure that I was home 21:06 every Thursday night by 8 o'clock 21:07 "Will and Grace" right, that was my favorite show 21:10 and I always had straight-girl roommates 21:12 so it was a gay man 21:13 with a roommate that was a straight girl 21:15 and all the antics that they would get into... it was my life 21:18 and so, here I am, walking with the Lord 21:20 and on Thursday night, at 8 o'clock, there I am... 21:22 and so, I'm sitting and watching it one night 21:24 and the Holy Spirit says, "Mike, what are you doing?" 21:26 I'm like, "I'm just watching my favorite program" 21:28 and the Lord says, 21:29 "How can I help you move out of this 21:32 if you keep sticking your foot in it?" 21:34 And I had to make a decision that night 21:36 and it's a very simplistic answer to your question 21:38 but I had to decide to get the television out of my house, 21:41 I am so wired visually... I could be on the internet, 21:45 I lived in the neighborhood where... 21:46 in Orlando, Florida, 21:48 where I could be in a gay bar within two miles... 21:50 five gay bars in two miles... 21:51 and so, if I didn't feel like getting in the car to go out, 21:55 I could actually get on the internet 21:56 and have an illicit situation at my house in 15 minutes, 21:59 this is how I had lived my life 22:01 and so, now, you know, 22:04 that was a really difficult time 22:06 learning to disconnect all of that. 22:08 Jennifer: So was it that Jesus' love came into your life 22:10 and it really displaced those cravings, 22:12 so is that kind of how that worked, 22:13 or was it also you just having to really put the brakes on, 22:16 put blinders on when you drove by those gay bars 22:18 or was it a combination of those two things? 22:20 Michael: Mind knuckling was never my forte, that's right, 22:23 I wasn't disciplined enough to do that 22:26 but what really was miraculous for me was when 22:30 somebody unpacked Philippians 2 verse 5 22:33 and I'll give an example. 22:35 One day I was stepping into the shower 22:37 and hope you'll forgive my graphicness 22:39 but I was stepping into the shower 22:42 and I had many months of victory 22:43 over masturbation and pornography, 22:45 and I was sitting there surrounded by soap 22:47 and you can imagine where my mind was going 22:49 and this thought comes right into my head 22:50 to just take care of business but then... just then... 22:53 I'd heard about Philippians 2 verse 5 22:55 and the Holy Spirit spoke to me, He says, 22:56 "Mike, claim the promise" I'm like, "What promise?" 22:58 and He says, "Let the mind of Christ in you" 23:01 right, "Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus. " 23:04 Well, Jesus doesn't indulge in masturbation and pornography 23:07 and so, just then, as I'm struggling 23:09 because I loved my sin... no doubt about it, 23:12 if I didn't love my sin, 23:13 that wouldn't be a temptation for me. 23:15 So now the struggle is going on 23:16 where, this is calling for my allegiance 23:18 but so is my Savior 23:19 and because of the relationship that I have with Him, 23:22 because of the fact that He had been more faithful to me 23:24 than I was to Him, 23:25 I didn't want to hurt Him again 23:27 and so, just in that moment, as I was struggling... 23:30 "Do I go this way or this way" and the choice is mine 23:32 God will always respect my choice, 23:34 I said, "Lord, I give you permission 23:36 to take these thoughts 23:38 because if you don't, I'm going to indulge right now, 23:39 and just then, my next conscious thought was about baseball 23:43 and I hate baseball... 23:44 what was so amazing is that the promise worked. 23:47 I didn't have time to pray for two days, 23:49 I didn't have time to go on a three-day fast... 23:51 I needed it... and the Lord started to show me 23:54 tools to give me victory. 23:55 David: This is key, this is very powerful. 23:58 In the same chapter... in Philippians 2:13, 24:00 Paul says, "It is God who works in you 24:04 both to will and to do of His good pleasure. " 24:07 And you heard the call of Jesus saying, 24:10 "Invite me to take over your thoughts... 24:13 your minds... your mind... " 24:16 Michael: You said, "When you did that... " 24:17 David: Yeah, yes... 24:19 and God became very intimate with you 24:21 and as you gave yourself over to the very presence of Jesus, 24:25 He was able to take over your thoughts. 24:27 Michael: Wow! wow... 24:29 Jennifer: So... Michael: That's powerful. 24:31 Jennifer: Very cool... 24:32 what would you give to people that are questioning right now, 24:36 they have same-sex attraction, they're considering your options 24:39 what would you say on behalf of... 24:42 what's good about the choice that you've made? 24:44 Michael: Good... wow! you know something? 24:46 Regardless of the fact that I don't have this... 24:49 this issue of AIDS hanging over my head 24:52 like it did for 20 years, 24:53 because it wasn't enough to stop me 24:55 but this abiding peace that I've never known before... 24:58 this dichotomy that I used to be these two people, 25:00 like, I used to be this really nice guy on the outside 25:03 but then, I was a sexual addict on the inside 25:06 and it's like, God brings all of that together 25:09 and what's so beautiful 25:11 is that, at night when I go to bed, 25:12 He's the last person I talk to 25:14 and I can finally share with Him all of the dirty, ugly details 25:18 of how I got slimed during the day... 25:19 things that I chose to look at 25:21 or things that I remembered from the past 25:23 and as I lay them before Him, 25:25 I don't fear condemnation or rejection 25:27 instead, what I get is affirmation, 25:30 forgiveness, cleansing... 25:31 and then in the morning when I wake up 25:33 He's the first one to wake me up 25:34 with a beautiful hymn or a song 25:36 and that to me has been the most valuable thing... 25:40 I think is... is knowing that I'm not alone, 25:42 is that, no matter where I am or what's going on, 25:44 that He wants His abiding presence 25:46 and learning the process of that which has been very difficult 25:49 and I don't have that down yet 25:51 but I tell you what I've experienced in the last 17 years 25:54 is enough to keep me going today. 25:56 Jennifer: Because what keeps a lot of people 25:58 from leaving the lifestyle is 25:59 if they're not going to have their same-sex relationship... 26:02 they can't even fathom having an opposite-sex relationship 26:04 but you're saying... you don't either 26:06 and you're not necessarily closed to that possibility 26:10 but it's not happening in any big way, right? 26:11 But you're still content... where you're at. 26:13 Michael: That's been amazing. 26:15 Jennifer: And you can recommend it to someone else. 26:16 Michael: Absolutely. 26:18 Shelly: Michael, you have a ministry called... 26:19 Michael: 'Coming out' Ministries 26:20 Shelly: 'Coming Out' Ministries 26:22 you guys just recently put a project together 26:24 that's going to help so many people... and it's called...? 26:27 Michael: "Journey Interrupted" it's a documentary 26:29 showing the lives of five different people... 26:31 David: "Journey Interrupted" 26:33 Michael: Ah ha, not just the 3 colleagues that I work with 26:35 but also, what we call... kind of like a "plot twist" 26:38 of a very dear friend of ours 26:40 that's also in the valley of decision. 26:41 Shelly: How do people reach out to your ministry 26:45 if they want counseling specific to this issue, 26:49 because we're not trying to 26:50 create the idea of hate or judgment 26:53 but if someone is struggling 26:54 and wants to pursue... 'Coming out' 26:57 what do they do? 26:59 Michael: Come to our website, ComingOutMinistries. org 27:03 and if you're interested in watching 27:04 the trailer to the video, it's: journeyinterrupted. com 27:08 Jennifer: We're so thankful that you joined us for this Program. 27:11 We've talked about some things 27:13 that are very, very loaded politically... 27:16 they're loaded emotionally, they're loaded spiritually 27:19 and we just ask that you consider what you've heard 27:21 and that if you're curious, 27:24 you would like to pursue these ideas, 27:26 contact Coming Out Ministries and learn more. 27:29 Jesus has given us life 27:32 and He wants to give us life and life... more abundantly 27:37 and He promises to give us more satisfying kinds of love 27:40 that any of us would be able to choose for ourselves 27:43 and I think we are all broken sexually 27:46 and we're all off on that point 27:48 and we all need more of Jesus' love 27:50 whether we're coming from a heterosexual or a homosexual 27:53 or whatever background 27:54 so let's all lay our lives down on the altar 27:56 and come to know that love that is beyond understanding. |
Revised 2017-10-02