Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), Christina Ceccoto, David Guerrero, Dr. Jean Wright II, Rachel Williams-Smith
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000025A
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00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors
00:29 where we view our stories in the context 00:32 of the grand narrative of God's story 00:34 and boy! do we have a story today 00:36 titled: Leaving Legalism... 00:39 Leaving Legalism... 00:41 you know, Legalism isn't an official diagnosis 00:44 but it is a problem 00:46 and it's very interesting to me 00:48 that it shares some features with 00:50 Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder 00:52 which is characterized by rigidity in matters of morality, 00:55 it also shares some characteristics 00:57 with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder 00:59 which is a different disorder 01:01 which is characterized by meaningless rituals 01:03 for the purpose of controlling anxiety 01:05 and it's interesting to me that "Obsessive Compulsive" 01:09 and "Old Covenant" have the same initials... 01:12 just making that observation 01:13 but the term for this 01:15 even though it's not an official diagnosis... 01:17 the religious form of OCD is called "Scrupulosity" 01:21 Scrupulosity... 01:23 however, in the diagnostical manual of God... 01:26 legalism is a big problem... it's an illness... 01:29 it's a spiritual problem... 01:31 and so on and so forth... 01:33 you know, legalism differs from obedience 01:36 in that... the legalist believes 01:39 that their obedience has merit before God... 01:42 that human merit features 01:45 what distinguishes legalism from obedience. 01:48 A lot of times, a legalistic person 01:51 and an obedient person look the same on the outside 01:54 but there's that motivational spring that really differs 01:58 however, I'll add this very quickly and that is that... 02:00 once a person with legalism gets a taste 02:04 of feeling meritorious before God, 02:06 they start to manufacture standards... 02:09 and often this can lead them headlong into fanaticism... 02:13 so let's talk about the prevalence of legalism... 02:17 it's pretty universal really, if you think about it, 02:21 the original pair... Adam and Eve... 02:24 first thing they did when they fell into sin 02:26 was... they manufactured fig leaves... 02:27 symbolizing self-righteousness. 02:29 We're all inclined... I think in our default state 02:32 to try to manufacture a sense of merit before God 02:36 and we often have to learn the hard way 02:38 in our religious experience 02:39 that this is a futile... a futile endeavor... 02:42 Any religion that has lost its focus on Jesus Christ 02:46 seems to breed legalism like rabbits in my observation 02:50 so what about the treatment for legalism? 02:53 What Jesus gave His prognosis and treatment 02:55 in Revelation chapter 3 and verse 18, 02:58 He said, "I counsel you to buy from me 03:00 gold refined in the fire... " which symbolizes love... 03:03 "so that you can become rich; white clothes to wear... " 03:07 which symbolizes the righteousness of Jesus... 03:08 not your righteousness but His... 03:10 so that you can cover your shameful nakedness 03:12 "and salve to put on your eyes so that you can see... " 03:16 we need to see ourselves as we are and realize 03:18 how desperately in need of God's righteousness and love 03:21 we really are... 03:22 so, our story today is going to be told by Rachel Williams-Smith 03:27 I read her book so I got a sneak preview... 03:30 it was an awesome book... I'm so glad you're here, 03:33 she's going to tell us how this problem of legalism 03:36 kind of manifested itself 03:39 from the time she was very, very young 03:41 so, welcome to our Program, so glad you could come 03:43 and I also want to welcome our Panel of Counselors 03:46 David Guerrero, 03:47 Biblical Counselor from Wisconsin, 03:49 Christina Cecotto, 03:51 Licensed Professional Counselor from Georgia 03:53 and Dr. Jean Wright from my hometown of Philadelphia, 03:56 I'm so glad that you guys are here 03:58 and we're going to talk about Legalism today, 04:00 this is going to be interesting. 04:01 So, start us at the very beginning... 04:04 where did you grow up, girl? 04:06 I mean, I know already 04:08 but I'm asking for the benefit of everyone else... yeah... 04:10 My legalism began in the context of a child... 04:15 growing up in the family, 04:17 we were actually living in Huntsville, Alabama 04:19 and it started out with 04:23 trying to follow everything that's written 04:26 and it got coupled with... kind of spiritual imbalance 04:29 which leads to extremism... so, my story is... 04:32 the story of many people with legalism 04:34 but with an extreme flare to it. 04:36 It was an extreme story, I have to admit... 04:40 I felt like I walked with you 04:42 through those years of living in this cabin 04:44 and... where was it again...? 04:46 Rachel: We ended up in Tennessee... 04:47 yeah, 50 acres in Tennessee. 04:50 It started out at six-years-old... 04:51 just... my parents were trying to do everything 04:53 and it's... most people don't have the... 04:55 I want to say almost... "the courage" 04:58 to follow everything, 04:59 usually there are limits... confines of family 05:01 and social norms and things that will hold people in check 05:05 so it may be in their heads ideologically... 05:07 they may think a certain way 05:08 but often the lifestyle doesn't follow 05:10 but... 05:12 Jennifer: So they are to be commended for their courage. 05:13 Rachel: Yes, that's what I'm saying. 05:14 Jennifer: And commitment... 05:16 Rachel: Most people don't just go all the way 05:17 with what they believe 05:18 and my parents really tried to do everything. 05:20 Jennifer: So, give us a picture of what that looked like. 05:22 Rachel: Well, it started when I was about six... five or six... 05:25 first wearing long dresses... that was the first thing... 05:28 and then changing our diet, 05:29 going from vegetarian to totally vegan... 05:31 these are nothing... there's nothing wrong with this... 05:34 with the... you know... 05:35 Jennifer: There are some good things... 05:37 in fact all of the things you described. 05:38 Rachel: Right, exactly, they were trying to do some things 05:39 that they really felt was right 05:41 and then, the next thing was 05:42 kind of... beginning to separate from the church 05:44 because it's too worldly 05:46 and then the Church School was too worldly... 05:48 my brothers were going there, 05:49 I hadn't started yet 05:51 so right about the time I was supposed to start school, 05:53 my parents decided they were taking my brothers out 05:55 and they weren't going to let me start school 05:58 and separate us from these worldly influences. 06:00 I noticed that separation always seems to come into play 06:03 with legalism... where you start withdrawing from other people 06:06 that are not quite right 06:08 so that could be a factor 06:10 and then, the authorities got involved 06:13 so... because they were going to... 06:15 yeah, someone reported us... 06:17 Jennifer: Oh, for not attending school... 06:18 Rachel: Right, so, that led to kind of fleeing from the Law, 06:21 living in buses, a State Park... 06:24 and then, finally, buying 50 acres in Tennessee 06:28 upon a hill, in a very isolated location 06:30 where there was no electricity and running water 06:33 indoor plumbing... that kind of thing available 06:36 no telephones, television, telephones... 06:38 and by that time, I was about nine-years old... 06:41 and I have... I actually have a picture of me 06:42 in my bonnet and long dress... 06:44 by this time, I was wearing was bonnet and long dress 06:46 from the time I was eight 06:48 and so, that was part of... 06:50 and then, it was a matter of training 06:51 so we wanted to have everything right. 06:54 We had one-hour worships three times a day 06:57 as in three one-hour worships because... 07:00 we're actually supposed to be praying without ceasing, 07:02 we're supposed to be seeking God constantly but... 07:05 you know, Daniel prayed three times a day, 07:06 and Ellen White talks about the hour of worship 07:09 so we had three one-hour worships 07:10 that wasn't enough... 07:12 we also had a lot of strict training... 07:15 memorization of Scripture 07:16 and then we had times we could go out and practice 07:19 what we had learned or see it demonstrated before us 07:22 so we would go on... kind of like, "recruitment trips" 07:24 because you'll be surprised at people that are interested 07:27 in folks that are different and we'll be on the edge... 07:30 people are always looking for something that's all out... 07:33 kind of... extreme... 07:34 like, something that they can gravitate toward 07:37 especially if they are a little unbalanced in their own life 07:38 or looking for something more 07:40 so, we would go and look for people that were of the faith... 07:43 you know, never on the outside... 07:45 you always recruit from the church... 07:46 and drag them out of the church into this kind of extremism 07:49 that's what happened 07:51 but we would go and just by showing up 07:53 with our long dresses... our bonnets 07:55 people would... we would draw attention 07:57 and one thing that often happened 07:59 and we believed... Ellen White says that you should bow... 08:02 get on your knees... 08:03 you should be on your knees for every prayer 08:05 that's the way we interpreted that... 08:06 and so... we... it didn't matter where we were seated... 08:09 if we got seated in the front row of the church... 08:11 we were going to kneel for every prayer... 08:12 and just... you can imagine a whole line of people 08:15 with bonnets and long dresses... getting up and kneeling 08:17 for prayer and then sitting back down... 08:19 Jennifer: So you only went to the churches to recruit... 08:22 you weren't going to fellowship. 08:23 Rachel: No... and this was only maybe a couple of times a year, 08:25 we'd do that... 08:27 back on the... kind of legalism... 08:29 where we were trying to do everything 08:31 I remember one time 08:32 we went to a camp meeting the first weekend 08:33 and a lady saw us and she was sympathetic toward us 08:36 and she invited us to come back to her home the second weekend 08:39 she wanted to prepare a meal for us 08:41 so that... just so we could fellowship with her and stuff... 08:45 she was just trying to reach out 08:46 and we told her that we'll come 08:48 but we're going to bring our own food... 08:49 because you can never prepare a meal that we would eat 08:51 and she didn't believe us so she... 08:53 she got the basic information about us 08:55 and she went out of her way... 08:57 so we came back the following Sabbath... 08:59 brought our food... and she was like, 09:02 "But I fixed things that you could eat... " 09:04 and we... I literally watched this unfold, 09:07 it was like... "We can't eat the food... " 09:09 "Why?" 09:10 "Well, first of all... what kind of oil or margarine 09:13 or whatever did you use?" 09:14 Well, she used margarine and a few things... 09:15 oil and a few things... 09:17 and we were able to tell her, "Well, it's not olive oil 09:21 or corn oil... you used canola... 09:23 you used these other things... " 09:26 it was supposed to be either olive oil or safflower oil... 09:28 you can use that... 09:29 that just about eliminated everything cooked 09:31 and she was like, 09:33 "Well, if I hadn't used oil, 09:34 then what else could you eat in the food?" 09:37 "Well, no there's still a problem. " 09:38 "Why?" 09:39 "What kind of salt did you use?" 09:41 "Salt...? What! I used salt... " 09:43 We're talking about legalism here 09:45 and taken to an extreme... 09:47 you can get like this... 09:48 where you see the focus is on all the details 09:50 "What kind of salt did you use?" 09:52 Sure enough, it was regular Morton salt in the container... 09:55 we started telling her about 09:56 how rock salt is not the type of salt you need to use, 09:59 it should be sea salt... right... 10:00 so... and then... well... "What if I hadn't used that... 10:03 what if I had used sea salt... 10:05 could you have eaten the food?" "No, I don't think so... " 10:06 "Why?" 10:08 "Well, what kind of water did you cook it in?" 10:09 Laughter... 10:11 And, sure enough, it was tap water... 10:13 David: "And did you wash your hand before you...?" 10:15 Rachel: Well, you know, we could just keep going... 10:17 and sure enough, we had our charts... 10:19 we had all this... I mean, I'm talking about 10:21 lettered out... we could show the chart... 10:23 the verse... the reference... wherever... 10:25 about what was in the water 10:27 and the reason why you shouldn't do it from other sources 10:30 about why this water was damaging for us... 10:33 it should be spring water... 10:34 "so we can't eat it... " 10:35 "Okay, so if I had gotten all that right, 10:37 then could you have eaten the food?" 10:38 "No... " 10:39 "Why?" 10:41 "Because, what kind of pots did you cook it in?" 10:42 Jennifer: Oh! 10:44 Jean: So there was no consideration 10:45 for the feelings of the lady that had tried to accommodate 10:51 and host and show love to you and your family... 10:55 there was no consideration for that... " 10:56 Jennifer: That didn't matter. 10:57 David: It does not... in view of the... 10:59 Rachel: We said, "We appreciate the efforts 11:00 but that's why we brought our own food... " 11:02 and at that time... I remember feeling a certain shame... 11:05 I was about 15... 11:06 and by that time I'd accepted Jesus as my own Savior 11:10 but my understanding was still encased in the legalism 11:13 and so, I felt shame but I remembered thinking, 11:17 "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, 11:19 that leads to destruction, 11:20 and many are be that go in thereat... " 11:22 so, "Narrow is the gate and strait is the way 11:24 that leads to life, and few there be that find it. " 11:26 And I remember thinking, 11:28 "Yeah, I guess it's because we're doing the right thing 11:29 and very few are following us... " 11:31 but I remember thinking, 11:32 "Wow! it is such a very, very narrow few... " yeah... 11:37 David: What you're bringing is very powerful... 11:39 and I say that because like, I've been there before... 11:42 where you think you're right and then you say, 11:46 "No, I know I'm right... " 11:47 but the Spirit is working on your heart 11:48 and the Spirit is saying, "No you're not right... " 11:50 Rachel: Exactly, something is not right. 11:52 Jennifer: But there's a conflict 11:53 she doesn't have enough information at this point 11:55 to be able to make the appropriate choice... 11:56 because the Spirit is still prompting you... 11:58 David: The Holy Spirit is nudging you and prompting you 12:00 and helping you to see there needs to... 12:02 a change needs to take place... 12:04 Jennifer: I'm just curious... 12:05 you guys as mental health providers, 12:06 what do you see in this... take away the water and the oil 12:10 and all those factors... 12:12 what do you see going on between this family 12:15 and this woman that's so desperate to please? 12:17 Isn't it this distrust... like, a high degree of... 12:21 "We're not safe with anyone except ourselves... 12:24 an environment we can micromanage... " 12:27 Jean: I also see overcompensation... 12:29 and so, when a person feels that you're not enough 12:32 and you have to make these rules and laws... 12:34 and follow the laws to be pleasing in God's sight... 12:36 I see an overcompensating 12:39 of something... of a magnitude that is... 12:41 Christina: Trying to earn... 12:43 Jean: Yeah, trying to earn salvation... 12:45 and so, what you said before about... 12:47 they didn't consider the feelings of this lady 12:49 and so, if we're not considering the feelings of others, 12:53 we're losing our humanity... 12:54 and every time we lose our humanity... 12:56 it puts us in a really precarious position with Christ. 12:59 David: Amen. 13:00 Rachel: And when you said, I remember thinking... 13:02 and I experienced some things at the time 13:05 where I noticed almost a loss of humanity... 13:07 I remember my brother... I didn't even mention this... 13:09 when we were talking beforehand, 13:10 my brother was horribly burned in a gas fire... gasoline fire 13:14 and they didn't take him to the hospital or anything... 13:18 and tried to treat him with Aloe Vera 13:20 and I'm not trying to condemn... 13:22 Jennifer: Home remedies. Rachel: Home remedies... 13:24 but you don't... they were experimenting... is my point 13:27 they did not know... 13:28 they were trying to do the best they could... 13:30 and he was in horrible pain... 13:32 and he went into a shock and everything... 13:34 it was a lot that happened with that 13:35 and I remember thinking, 13:39 "How can we get to the point 13:41 where regardless of the circumstances... 13:43 we're so rigid in what we believe... we can't change 13:46 and it was like, your humanity... 13:48 and when we finished that day 13:50 of trying to get him squared away... 13:52 then it was like... we had to be temperate 13:54 so let's go to bed and I couldn't... 13:56 I sat up with my brother for most of the night... 13:59 I couldn't leave him... because something seemed wrong 14:01 where temperance is more important than his... 14:04 his suffering... David: Hmmm... 14:05 Rachel: So, I saw a lot of that through... 14:07 like, people would come to see us and talk with us 14:10 but because they had a micro difference in their beliefs, 14:12 then you get kicked off of our property, 14:15 "Go away because you believe in free running oil... 14:18 and I believe that you should use no oil... " 14:20 and that kind of thing... 14:21 Christina: There was no love... Rachel: Exactly... 14:23 Christina: We have to protect 14:24 ourselves and this side... not about the other person. 14:27 Jennifer: Notice how this really gets to us... 14:29 like, all of us are like, "Oh!" 14:30 because we've all wrestled with this. 14:32 David: What comes to my mind is in Matthew chapter 6... 14:37 excuse me... 5 verse 48... Jesus makes a statement, 14:41 He said, "Therefore... " 14:42 He says, "You shall be perfect, 14:44 just as your Father in heaven is perfect... " 14:46 but what's interesting is that Luke... writing what he heard 14:51 and it's by divine inspiration, he says, 14:54 "Be ye therefore merciful, 14:56 as your Father in heaven is merciful... " 15:00 and that text came to my mind as she was speaking 15:03 because they were looking at this... perfecting... 15:05 perfecting... perfecting... perfection... 15:06 and really the perfection that God was looking for 15:09 is His love in our hearts 15:11 so that we can be just as merciful 15:13 as God is merciful. Jean: Amen. 15:14 Jennifer: So you had mentioned that you had come to Christ. 15:16 Rachel: Yes. 15:18 Jennifer: And so, this is like, sort of the second phase... 15:20 so you grew up in this extremely controlled environment 15:23 dos and don'ts... 15:24 and then at some point you gave your heart to Jesus 15:26 did it all just evaporate at that point or...? 15:28 Rachel: No, because you're thinking... 15:30 how you're trained to think still has an effect 15:34 even though Christ had my heart, 15:35 my mind was encased in legalism 15:37 so I would literally do things like... 15:39 this is how it translated... so I'm trying to make sure 15:41 that I please God in everything I do, 15:44 once again, the fixation... 15:46 the focus is not on the relationship with God 15:49 but rather on making sure that every behavior lines up with 15:54 a standard that you can externally measure. 15:57 Jennifer: This makes God look like a behavioralist 15:59 or an autocrat... Rachel: Yes. 16:01 David: But the focus is on self. Rachel: And the focus is on self 16:03 David: The focus is on self, what can I do? 16:04 Rachel: Exactly... exactly, I love that point, 16:08 so I literally would... I started creating a chart 16:11 it was a line-graph chart of how close I got to perfection 16:15 because see... to me... 16:17 righteousness was about rightness... 16:19 so, "How right were you in your behavior?" 16:21 "Did you think any wrong thoughts, 16:24 did you do any wrong deeds?" 16:26 and I would literally graph how close... 16:28 so, zeros... like, you just... everything was bad that day 16:31 and then 100 percent, nothing wrong in word or deed 16:34 and I remember, 16:35 I literally... one day got to 100 percent 16:37 and I wrote in small notes, 16:39 "Praise God, finally perfect in every thought and action... 16:42 did not do anything that was wrong... " 16:44 David: And then, everything went to zero, right? 16:46 Rachel: And the guilt set in... 16:47 yes! the pressure set in.. something seemed so wrong... 16:52 I could not shake the uneasy feeling 16:55 that in thinking that somehow I got to be right, 16:58 that I was utterly wrong 16:59 and I remember going that 17:01 and I stopped keeping my chart within days after that... 17:04 Jennifer: Wow! Rachel: Yeah. 17:05 Jennifer: So was there... 17:06 I know that you ended up in a boarding academy, 17:09 you were about... what? 15 years old...? 17:11 Rachel: I was 16... when I left home... 17:13 still with a bonnet on my head, Bible in my hand... 17:17 so, yeah, and I still have a picture of that... 17:20 and I went there... and the way I had been trained 17:23 if you give up one thing, okay, if you let go of one thing 17:28 you stop wearing your bonnet, 17:29 "He that offends at one point, is guilty of all... " 17:31 so, if I let go of one thing, 17:33 then sooner or later I'm going to... 17:34 and there was always a list of things... 17:36 you're going to start wearing pants... 17:37 you're going to start wearing jewelry... 17:38 you're going to break the Sabbath, 17:40 you're going to start committing fornication... 17:41 you're going to give up Christ... 17:42 you know, everything... is just... 17:44 Jennifer: It's all or nothing. 17:45 Rachel: Exactly. 17:47 Christina: To me, balance is so essential 17:51 and I feel like this verse... 17:52 I feel like it really points that out... 17:54 and I'm going to explain... expound upon it in just a moment 17:57 it's kind of long so hang with me... 17:59 Ecclesiastes 3... it says, 18:01 "To everything there is a season, 18:02 and a time to every purpose under the heaven: 18:05 A time to be born, and a time to die; 18:07 a time to plant, and a time to pluck... 18:09 A time to kill, and a time to heal; 18:11 a time to break down, and a time to build up; 18:14 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; 18:16 a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 18:19 A time to cast away stones, 18:21 and a time to gather stones together; 18:22 a time to embrace, 18:24 and a time to refrain from embracing; 18:25 A time to get, and a time to lose; 18:26 a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 18:28 A time to rend, and a time to sew; 18:30 a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 18:32 A time to love, and a time to hate; 18:34 a time of war, and a time of peace. " 18:36 And what I want to bring out with this is 18:38 there's a time for everything 18:41 but sometimes we'll take a quote or a verse 18:43 and we say, "This quote or verse is for every time... " 18:47 Jennifer: Yeah. 18:49 Christina: And so, that's where I think 18:50 we really get out of balance... 18:51 and if you see... and I tell people... 18:54 whenever you study one topic, whatever it is, 18:58 there's... you'll always... always find the opposite... 19:01 so, keep searching... keep searching... why? 19:02 because there's a time for everything... 19:04 you just heard that there's a time to preserve life... 19:06 there's a time to kill... 19:08 right, I mean, you wouldn't think 19:09 that would be in the Word of God 19:10 right, but it is... so there is... 19:12 we need to be careful about applying one verse or quote 19:16 to every time... 19:17 Jennifer: And typically, this kind of approach to religion 19:20 is characterized by a cherry-picking process 19:23 where a person pulls out the things that appeal 19:25 to the role that they're on which is a sense of human merit 19:30 so... so you ended up at Wildwood... 19:31 Rachel: Fountainview... 19:33 Jennifer: Fountainview... I'm sorry... 19:34 and as an academy student and... was that culture shock for you 19:39 because they're very balanced. 19:40 Rachel: Oh yes, I mean... 19:42 I hadn't been around one young person my age 19:44 and now, it was around 30... 19:45 so, 30 would seem like nothing to you... 19:47 I mean, you could have 30 in a classroom... 19:49 and there were 30 students in the entire school at the time 19:52 but for me, that was overwhelming 19:54 so yeah, I went through so much... 19:55 socially... academically... everything... 19:57 trying to come up to speed but the whole trouble is... 20:01 "Do I take off my bonnet... shorten my dress?" 20:03 I mean, I didn't want to give up Christ, 20:05 because I didn't want to do wrong... but how do I decide? 20:07 And that's when I learned about principles 20:10 and I had never learned about principles 20:12 and it kind of goes with what you're saying 20:13 that... if you... 20:15 actually what you're saying goes beyond this 20:17 but principles are underlying truths that don't change... 20:19 by which you can govern your lives... 20:21 and I think what helps you know the right time is... 20:24 is when it's... all interpreted 20:27 on the basis of a loving relationship 20:29 so I didn't learn that till later... 20:30 the relationship part... really... the understanding 20:33 but principles were... was the thing 20:35 and the Principal of the school 20:37 is the one that taught me principles 20:39 and it was... she helped me to understand 20:43 that... actually I gave her an argument 20:47 as to why I didn't think I could take off the bonnet... 20:50 the question always comes... did Ellen White wear the bonnet? 20:53 and she mentioned that there's a picture of Ellen White 20:56 in the pulpit without one 20:57 and we actually had a quote for that... 20:58 we always had a quote for everything 21:00 and it was a reference about how Ellen White 21:02 had laid her bonnet and gloves in the vestibule 21:05 before she went into the podium 21:07 and the reason why is because people would be distracted 21:09 trying to see her face while she was speaking 21:12 so, our point was... she did wear one... 21:14 she just didn't have it when the picture was taken 21:15 for that reason, 21:17 and she grabbed me on that, she said, 21:19 "That makes exactly the point that I'm trying... 21:21 that gives the point that I'm trying to make... 21:24 anything that detracts from Christ... has to go. 21:27 That's the principle that nothing should stand between us 21:31 and our communication of this message of Christ and His love 21:34 when people look at you... 21:36 they see religion... they don't see principles 21:39 and it also shows you that 21:40 modesty is not dependent on wearing a bonnet, 21:42 that's a rule... that's a custom... 21:44 which can change with time 21:46 whereas modesty can... will still express itself 21:49 in appropriate ways 21:51 even though the law and the rule may change. " 21:53 And I was convicted on the spot... 21:55 Jennifer: That... that's powerful... 21:56 so, you learned about principles 21:58 and I want to fast-forward a little 21:59 because we're not going to get the grand arc of your story 22:02 if we don't move a little bit into the future 22:04 so... but you eventually came to the place 22:06 of coming to know Jesus as a person... 22:08 Rachel: Yes. 22:10 Jennifer: So, give us some insight about that. 22:13 Rachel: Well, I did go through some devastating experiences 22:16 later on in life... few years down the road... 22:19 and what I learned is that... 22:21 knowledge and even the understanding of principles... 22:25 it didn't help the emotional deficit that was there 22:28 and I didn't know how to manage all of that, 22:31 I wanted to do what was right... 22:32 but in a way... my focus on rightness 22:34 helped to get me into trouble 22:36 because I put myself in... 22:37 in situations that were compromising... 22:39 knowing that, "I don't do that and I am not that way... " 22:42 and guess what? 22:43 "He that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall. " 22:45 "You straining at a gnat... you swallow a camel... " 22:48 every time... 22:49 so I ended up with circumstances in my life 22:52 and doing things that I never dreamed I would do 22:54 and God used that as a time... 22:56 Jennifer: I was going to say... you know God... 22:58 I think, where you were coming from... 23:00 you kind of needed to really blow it... 23:02 please forgive me for saying this 23:05 but I think that God reaching into that 23:06 was probably very powerful for you 23:09 spiritually and emotionally. 23:10 Rachel: It was... 23:11 I never realized until I ended up 23:13 where I never thought I would be... 23:15 that I had looked at everyone else legalistically before, 23:18 how self-righteous I was... 23:20 how I'd look at someone who was on drugs 23:24 or in illicit relationships... or in jail... 23:26 and I would look at them and think, 23:28 "Oh, you know, it's too bad... " 23:30 you know, that pity... that... 23:32 "I-feel-sorry-for-you... " type thing. 23:33 Jennifer: You weren't judging them 23:34 but you were so condescending. David: A little like mercy. 23:37 Rachel: Yeah... yeah exactly... it's not true empathy... 23:40 like, "I cannot be you... I would never... " 23:42 have you heard people say, "I would never do that... " 23:44 All: Yes... Hmmm... hmmm... 23:46 Rachel: You have no idea what you would do 23:48 if circumstances... genetics... need... lined up in such a way 23:53 and the grace of God didn't keep you... 23:54 Jennifer: What a powerful point. 23:56 Rachel: There's nothing you wouldn't do, we are all sinners 23:58 and the only thing that makes a difference 24:01 is that grace... saved by grace, unmerited favor... 24:04 I experienced grace in my life 24:08 and that's what changed me ultimately. 24:10 Jennifer: Glory... Hallelujah, amen... right? 24:14 David: And grace is God's power, 24:17 when you read Scripture, grace is God's power 24:19 so it's His unmerited favor that had come into your life 24:21 then it's His power that's working in you... 24:23 Rachel: Power to change. David: Amen. 24:25 Rachel: He provides the power the Bible says, 24:27 "According to the power that works in you... " 24:29 it's not you working it out... 24:32 yes, you work it out... and He works it in... 24:34 that's your choice... it's our choice then... 24:36 David: You surrender... 24:37 Rachel: But the power is to believe... 24:38 the power is to surrender... the power is to trust... 24:41 the power is to praise Him in the middle of your circumstances 24:44 knowing that He loves you and He's going to save you. 24:46 That's what I experienced... 24:48 in the middle of me doing wrong, 24:50 I literally heard God speaking to my mind and heart saying, 24:53 "I love you... " and that's all He said to me. 24:55 "I love you... " 24:56 my heart was already condemning me 24:58 for everything I was doing wrong 24:59 but I needed to know that He loved me in the middle of... 25:03 that changed everything 25:05 and it's changed my attitude toward people 25:07 so now I see a young lady coming to church, 25:08 I literally... just a few weeks ago was in some place... 25:11 in an Adventist gathering and I saw a woman come in 25:13 and she literally had a... a garment on 25:15 that was just a strip of cloth... 25:17 two strips of cloth going down the front 25:19 and the strings tying it to the back 25:22 and everything else was bare flesh under that, 25:24 now, can you imagine walking into 25:26 a concentration of Adventist people... dressed like that? 25:29 When I saw... I mean, there were brutal looks following her 25:33 and other looks following her 25:34 and she was being led along by the hand by a young man, 25:37 I looked at her and I knew 25:39 this was a woman who was going through terrible abuse, 25:42 this is a woman who's... who has lost all sense of self, 25:45 value and self-worth and struggling with things... 25:48 I didn't see her... 25:49 thinking... "She needs to cover up... 25:50 how dare she wear that!" David: Thank God she's here. 25:52 Rachel: But I understood her dress... 25:54 David: Thank God that she's here. 25:55 Rachel: That's true, and I also understood 25:57 that her clothing was an expression 25:58 of what was going on inside, 26:00 now I understand that sin is a condition... 26:03 and it is something... we have been wounded 26:06 and the wounds have caused us to express certain things. 26:09 What God is trying to do is heal our wounds... 26:11 He's not just... I mean, the behavior... 26:13 He doesn't want our behavior to be wrong 26:15 but the behavior is like leaves on the tree... 26:17 we focus on the leaf 26:19 and the parable of the fig tree is trying to tell us 26:21 that if the tree is right, it will grow the figs... 26:24 and it will also have the leaves too. 26:25 Christina: Bigger matters... 26:26 Rachel: But He wants to come inside... yes. 26:29 David: Jesus said, "I am the vine and you are the branches" 26:30 and so, we need to abide in Him. 26:32 Rachel: I should be quiet... 26:33 you all will have something to say. 26:35 Jean: The compassion that was missing 26:37 back when you were having that meal 26:38 and the humanity that wasn't provided to that lady 26:41 that was trying to do something nice and kind... 26:44 here you are... years later... 26:45 with all this experience under your belt... 26:47 providing that compassion... that empathy... 26:49 that love that that woman needed that walked in there... 26:53 Christina: And it's interesting that you had to fall so badly 26:56 to be able to see the reality of your sinfulness... 26:59 I mean, that probably happens to most of us, right? 27:01 before we recognize that we are really sinners... 27:04 we have to... fall. Jean: Absolutely. 27:06 Jennifer: I mean, we don't want to recommend falling 27:07 but it does have good effects sometimes, 27:10 you know, you didn't get through the whole narrative 27:13 because it's so detailed and so comprehensive 27:16 but, there's a wonderful book out there 27:18 called, "Born Yesterday... " and I love the title, 27:20 I was like, "Oooh, why didn't I think of that title, 27:22 that's so good... " 27:23 and you guys need to get a copy of that book 27:25 and you need to read that book because it's powerful. 27:27 David: "Born Yesterday... " 27:29 Jennifer: "Born Yesterday" 27:30 and it's got a picture of her and her bonnet in it... 27:32 and I want to say this 27:33 to those folks that have joined us today 27:35 that... the Bible tells us... 27:37 one of the prophets... 27:38 it's either Jeremiah or Isaiah, I can't remember which, 27:41 it says that all our righteousness are as filthy rags 27:44 and that they're like a leaf that shrivels up and blows away, 27:47 you can do nothing to will earn merit before God, 27:50 He will give you His merit as a free gift to you 27:53 at an infinite cost to Himself 27:54 study righteousness by faith... study the love of God... 27:57 and you will not be sorry. |
Revised 2017-10-12