Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170028A
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00:26 Welcome to A multitude of Counselors,
00:29 part two of Dictatorship and Mental Health. 00:32 We had an amazing conversation during part one, 00:36 and I'm just kind of really frankly overwhelmed 00:37 as I think of all the directions 00:39 we could take this discussions. 00:41 But we do want to give a quick recap. 00:43 We talked about our guest, Jaime Jorge's childhood 00:47 under Fidel Castro's Cuba communism, 00:50 and it was fascinating. 00:52 We saw that it's a very difficult environment 00:55 to grow up in, but fortunately, 00:57 there were sort of moderating influences 00:59 in his loving family and in his church family. 01:02 And so we kind of got a sense of what it was like to grow up 01:04 in that environment, 01:05 some of the mental health issues 01:07 that come out of it, but how God worked in his life. 01:09 We got to the point 01:10 where he was partying in college, 01:12 and so we really want to unpack that. 01:14 We want to all of your deep, dark secrets. 01:16 No, I'm kidding. 01:17 But let me quickly introduce my panel here. 01:19 This is Shelley Wiggins, 01:21 she is a professional counselor from Michigan. 01:23 This is David Guerrero, 01:24 he is a biblical counselor from Wisconsin, 01:27 and he does a bunch of other things too, 01:28 but I'm just going to say biblical counselor. 01:30 Just leave it there. Just leave it there. 01:31 Yeah, just leave it. 01:32 And Nivischi Edwards who is a therapist and teacher, 01:37 and she lives currently in Tennessee 01:39 and will be moving to Georgia pretty soon 01:41 for certain reasons 01:43 that we won't talk about right now. 01:44 Anyway and Jaime Jorge, sometimes known as Jaime Jorge. 01:48 That's right. 01:50 So we're going to call him Jaime. 01:51 Talk us from the wild party life post Cuba 01:55 to where you are at today. 01:57 So it was a phase of me really sort of seeing 02:02 what was out there. 02:03 Yeah. 02:05 I grew up in a very sheltered environment, 02:07 which I'm thankful for in a way because my parents shielded me. 02:10 Well, that's what you're supposed to do 02:11 as parents when your kids are growing up. 02:13 That's right. 02:14 But especially from that whole communist regime. 02:16 Right. 02:18 All of the challenges that we had outside the home, 02:20 in school, on the street. 02:22 By the way, we lived in the days 02:24 where a few said Jesus in a public place, 02:26 you could get arrested and go to jail, 02:28 that's not the case anymore. 02:30 But at home, we had this bubble of love 02:34 and worship and fellowship 02:38 with our family and our other Christian friends 02:42 that made a huge difference. 02:43 So when I got here, I just started to have freedoms 02:47 that I never had before, and so I started to experience 02:50 or experiment with those freedoms. 02:53 And so I did what young people did 02:55 during my time which was go out, 02:57 you know, drinking after class or partying, 03:01 you know, at night or whatever. 03:03 And I just found the whole thing 03:04 to be very empty, 03:06 and very time consuming, and time wasting. 03:09 And I really had an encounter with God, 03:13 not that I didn't as a child, but I had one as an adult 03:17 where I realized that people look for outlets, right? 03:22 Some people turn to drugs, some people turn to sex, 03:25 some people turn to hard work. 03:28 We talk about this whole, 03:31 you know, the virtues of working hard, 03:32 but if other parts of our lives 03:34 are out of balance, that's not good. 03:36 That's not healthy. 03:38 And so I studied the Bible, I came to my own realizations 03:42 and conclusions about my relationship with God 03:45 and decided that these things were not things 03:47 that were going to be constructive for me, 03:49 that were not going to help me, 03:51 and so I decided to focus my energies on... 03:53 And you family is in the US at this point. 03:55 Yes. We were able to come together. 03:57 So you also mentioned that you started down 03:59 the path of medical school, 04:00 but then you ended up choosing music. 04:03 Could you talk about that? 04:04 Was it at all... 04:06 You said it was your calling, 04:07 you realize that music was a calling for you. 04:08 But did you feel that it was your calling? 04:11 Well, I probably always did. Okay. 04:13 But I also know how difficult 04:16 the life of a Christian musician is. 04:19 No money. 04:20 And I just didn't want to go through that. 04:22 My parents had come from nothing, we had nothing, 04:26 and so I thought 04:27 we have opportunities in this country. 04:29 I want to choose a career 04:31 that will give me the opportunity 04:33 to bless my family and others as well, 04:35 and I love medicine because when I was little boy 04:39 and I was very sickly, 04:40 my doctor who was a Christian doctor, 04:42 took such good care of me that, 04:44 I thought, "I want to do that for people as well." 04:46 What an opportunity to really bless people, yeah. 04:48 I wanted to go to the Amazon 04:50 and be a missionary for a period of time. 04:52 But halfway through medical school, 04:55 you know, God is knocking at my door 04:57 and then he's opening the door, and, you know, finally saw it. 05:00 But is music also healing for us 05:02 and have you found it to be so? 05:04 Isn't that part of your whole thing? 05:06 Most definitely. Yeah. 05:07 I planned if I ever became a doctor to do music therapy 05:11 for my patients in my practice, 05:15 even though I didn't go that route, 05:17 I have done music therapy. 05:19 He comes in with a stethoscope, whips out the violin. 05:21 You know, that'd be great. And brings healing. 05:23 No need to prescribe medication. 05:24 Yeah, everybody is great. 05:26 Which means the drug companies wouldn't be very happy. 05:27 No. 05:29 But I spent four and a half... 05:30 So you wouldn't have been a doctor very long. 05:31 That's right. 05:33 So when I did music therapy in several Ohio hospitals, 05:37 I would go in and I would play... 05:38 Did you really? Mm-hmm. 05:39 For four and a half years. 05:41 And I would play for the patients 05:42 and the staff and the staff 05:44 would tell me, "When you're here, 05:46 we don't have to administer 05:48 as many pain killers as when you are not here." 05:49 Isn't that great? That's awesome. 05:51 That is amazing. 05:52 And didn't you mention some research has showed 05:54 that calming effects and the very symptoms 05:56 that we see, 05:58 you know, develop out of a political dictatorship 06:00 that kind of systemic problems that people have, 06:02 didn't you share some research 06:04 about how music treats those very things, you know? 06:07 Great. 06:08 'Cause in the segment, Jen, 06:09 you highlighted about the symptoms of people 06:13 who come out of that type of culture that included, 06:18 you know, depression, anxiety, 06:21 PTSD, hyperventilation, you use. 06:24 Well, it was chronic hyperventilation 06:26 which we just figured out was panic attacks. 06:28 And so all of that... 06:30 I never recalled that. 06:31 Has to do with high blood pressure issues 06:32 and what not. 06:34 So I'm curious have you actually seen 06:36 those happen when you were in those settings. 06:39 So I would play for the patients in the rooms 06:41 and I would play, 06:43 "What a Friend we have in Jesus," 06:44 "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing," 06:45 Leaning On The Everlasting Arms." 06:47 And you'd see their heart rates start to come down, 06:49 their blood pressure would start to drop, 06:52 and it made a very profound effect 06:55 in the wellbeing of those people, 06:58 even for just that moment. 06:59 So imagine if we exposed ourselves to good music 07:03 that was therapeutic, you know? 07:05 And of course, tyranny doesn't have 07:08 to just come from the government. 07:09 It can come from home, 07:11 it can come from a bad relationship, 07:12 it could come from those types of situations. 07:15 And we want to use all of these tools... 07:17 Can you unpack that a little? 07:18 So you are saying that, you know, 07:19 I grew up under political relationship, 07:21 and I had these effects, and we've established 07:23 that really well during this program, 07:25 but can you take the same principles 07:28 and apply them in 07:29 another context i.e. family, church, 07:33 and does it have the same psychological impact? 07:36 And then my following question would be, 07:39 distill down 07:40 what is that central characteristic 07:42 that would apply both in a political, 07:44 and a church, family context, isn't it controlled? 07:48 And the snuffing out of the individual... 07:50 That's what it comes down to. 07:51 Of individualism and the only 07:54 we can really bond as human beings 07:56 is to be fully individuals. 07:58 So there's like a paradox. 07:59 We have to be individual, 08:00 we also blend our lives together. 08:02 But without that individuality, relationship dies, 08:05 so they strip people of their individuality 08:08 as does any kind of dictatorship, 08:10 and in that way, 08:11 reduce people's capacity to have intimate relationships. 08:16 Do you ever see that in families? 08:18 Do you ever see it in churches? Often. Often. 08:19 And when you do, do you freak out? 08:21 Acquainted with a family 08:23 where the husband spiritually manipulated the wife. 08:28 "I'm the head of the home." 08:29 Not only that, Jesus would not be happy 08:33 with that kind of activity on your part. 08:35 Yeah, "'Cause you can't rebel against me." 08:37 That's right. 08:38 And "I am the head of the home." 08:39 When a man starts saying that, 08:41 I start to really raise my eyebrows 08:43 because if you have to resort to that, 08:47 to show your authority, 08:52 then there is a problem 08:54 because Jesus is the head of the church, right? 08:57 He doesn't say you have to do this 09:00 or this and that. 09:01 "You do what I have shown you because you love me." 09:05 So when you start having to say, 09:07 "The Lord would frown upon that on your part," 09:09 or, "You need to be home early," 09:11 or this and that and the other, you start seeing the results. 09:14 A person then becomes, they lose their individuality, 09:21 they start becoming dependent on their spouse 09:23 or their husband for their thought, 09:26 for their guidance, for their direction, 09:29 and they lose their individuality, 09:31 they are completely dependent. 09:33 With tragic effects. 09:35 And I think mental health, 09:36 like what I have seen in religious homes 09:38 that are characterized by a form of dictatorship 09:42 is people end up 09:43 with more anxiety disorders, more OCD. 09:46 They maybe outwardly more compliant 09:49 and it may seem like, 09:50 "Wow, that family did a great job of raising 09:52 that child just right," 09:53 but if you get down into the nuts and bolts, 09:55 kind of the underbelly 09:56 of how that family system functioned, 09:58 those children were effectively brainwashed 10:01 and they have major health problems, 10:04 a lot of them are my clients, actually. 10:07 So you see this, does it trigger you, 10:10 you know, when you see it in families? 10:11 Do you just feel like it's Castro all over again? 10:13 Most definitely. 10:15 And it makes me very upset and very angry. 10:17 And I can tell you, I've been on concert trips 10:21 where I have been assigned a pastor 10:26 or a leader to take me 10:28 during these two weeks during, you know, all over the country, 10:33 and I have seen this behavior constantly 10:36 and I've had to... 10:37 I've mentioned it to my wife before, 10:40 I've had to take the person aside 10:43 and let listen what you're doing... 10:45 What do you actually day to them? 10:46 You just said it what you're doing. 10:47 It depends on the situation, 10:49 but I've had to confront people and say, 10:51 "You are being a tyrant." 10:53 And isn't the essential message 10:55 that you want to convey to someone like that that 10:57 if you're really a servant leader 10:59 in your family, 11:00 you won't have to constantly one down everybody, 11:03 that so called, "under you." 11:04 They will want to submit to you. 11:07 There's a responsibility on the leader of the home, 11:09 we're not against leadership, neither is the Bible, 11:11 but there's a responsibility on the leader, 11:13 "Fathers, provoke not your children." 11:15 In other words, you are to some degree responsible 11:17 for their response to you. 11:19 And the same thing with husbands and wives. 11:21 You are to some degree responsible 11:23 for whether that woman is inclined 11:25 to want to submit to you or not. 11:26 You can't find one verse in the Bible that says, 11:29 "Husbands, make your wife submit." 11:30 It's not there. 11:32 You are to enlist their submission 11:33 through being a servant leadership, 11:35 a servant leader. 11:36 Yeah. 11:38 So there seems to be here an absence of love. 11:41 How or what would you say a family or church, 11:47 what could they do to reinsert that environment, not love. 11:52 Well, the first thing we need to do is what Paul said. 11:56 We need to think of others better than us, 12:00 more important than us. 12:02 So focus off of myself. That's right. 12:03 Okay. 12:05 Because when my desire is to take care of your needs, 12:08 then all of a sudden, what I want isn't as important. 12:11 And once I start doing that, 12:13 that's going to create a desire in other people to do the same. 12:15 Amen. 12:17 But if I come to you and I say, 12:18 "This is what I want you to do," 12:19 your first reaction 12:21 unless you are beaten down is to say, 12:22 "And who do you think you are?" 12:24 Yeah. 12:25 And so that's already going 12:26 to create this strife, this tension. 12:28 Yeah. 12:29 But if I come and say, "How can I be of help?" 12:31 Well, so what's going on in the part of the dictator? 12:34 Aren't they operating 12:35 on the exact opposite principle? 12:36 Correct. 12:38 And you kind of distilled that, we were talking in the hall 12:39 and you kind of distilled it down 12:41 to like pride being basically the essential sin 12:44 and the sin that turned Lucifer into Satan. 12:47 So could you unpack that, like, that individual is operating on 12:51 the exact opposite of the gospel principle 12:53 of serving others? 12:55 And how does dictatorship serve the dictator? 12:58 Well, it gives that person the control that they want. 13:01 Yeah. 13:03 What does control do for people? 13:04 I hate being in control, people, it's exhausting. 13:06 Well, oftentimes, 13:07 it comes from a background of inadequacy, 13:12 insecurity, and so these people 13:15 then want to overcome that by subduing others. 13:19 I read a book, very fascinating book called," 13:21 Stalin: Breaker of Nations." 13:24 He was somebody 13:25 who starved millions of his own farmers. 13:28 Incredible. His own people. 13:30 And he was a very, 13:31 very unimportant child growing up, 13:34 mistreated by his family, mistreated by his community. 13:37 But it seems when people are compensating 13:40 for low self-esteem, there's almost no limit 13:43 to how far that compensation can go. 13:45 Once pride takes hold and people start dealing 13:47 with their innate shame by trying to be prideful, 13:50 it's like there's no sealing on it. 13:52 That's right. 13:53 Like, people can go to those lengths 13:54 where they killed 25 million people. 13:56 So there's a void and they're trying to fill 13:57 that void with control and power and abuse. 14:01 We could provide... 14:03 You were talking in last segment 14:04 about what we can do as clinicians, 14:05 support someone 14:07 who has come to us in this form. 14:08 And I think the key is relationships. 14:12 If we provide a safe space 14:14 to build and grow a healthy trusting, loving, 14:18 similar to what you described 14:20 in your family, then people can thrive. 14:22 But if there's continual pounding on, 14:24 "You must do this, 14:26 you have to do this, you cannot do this," 14:28 then that depletes them. 14:29 Here's the tricky part though. 14:30 That's very valid what you said, 14:32 but the tricky part is when you are actually... 14:34 narcissists never really come to counseling anyway, 14:37 but if they did, 14:39 they take advantage of empathy, 14:41 so you try to build, or like, 14:43 if you are working with a married couple 14:44 and one of them is a dictator, 14:47 you don't do marriage counseling. 14:49 Marriage counselors will not see 14:50 if there's abuse going on, or control going, 14:52 they won't see the couple together. 14:54 They first work with the dictator 14:55 and try to get them to repudiate their approach 14:58 because he'll take advantage of her empathy. 15:01 However, if you educate the spouse about the behavior, 15:04 she can then gain 15:06 what she needs to change her behavior, 15:09 and the dynamics 15:10 of the relationship too can change. 15:11 And in a lot of times, 15:13 there's buy-in on the part of the spouse 15:15 that is submitting to the abuse and control, 15:17 there's enough buy-in to where they don't really feel 15:19 they have the right 15:20 or they're getting something of out of it, 15:21 and if you can get her to the place 15:23 where she's willing... 15:24 And so that's, you build the relationship 15:25 with the spouse so you can educate her 15:27 and then she can then change. 15:29 Speaking of marriage, Jaime... 15:32 are you married? Yes. 15:35 You and your wife are happily working together, 15:41 but yet at distanced because you're travelling, 15:44 you are doing concerts. 15:46 She travels with you sometimes, 15:48 but tell us more about your vision 15:51 to actually work together together. 15:54 Well, we both had been married before, 15:57 we both went through divorces, 15:58 and we both said without ever meeting 16:01 that we would never going to get married again. 16:04 Divorce is one of the most painful 16:06 and destructive things that I know on this earth 16:08 because of the collateral damage, 16:12 the amount of people that are affected by this. 16:14 But God brought us together, 16:16 and we want to make sure that we always have a happy 16:21 and a healthy and a thriving relationship, 16:24 and that means investing time into the relationship. 16:27 Intentional time. Exactly right. 16:30 And so my goal is to be home during the week. 16:35 When I was single, 16:36 and I was single for a number of years, 16:38 I would be on the road two, three, four, five, 16:40 six weeks in a row, 16:41 I would just go from the next to the next place 16:43 because I didn't have to come home. 16:45 But now I've cut a lot of that out 16:46 and I've tried to bunch up my concerts on the weekends 16:53 so that I start Friday night and I end Sunday night, 16:56 and I would typically do five concerts 16:57 during the weekend, 16:59 and then I can go home and spend time with Rachelle. 17:01 I'm so glad to hear this 17:03 'cause I have to admit, when I saw, 17:04 you know, you remarried, 17:06 and I knew how hard worker you were. 17:08 I thought, "Do they have any time together?" 17:11 I'm so glad to hear 17:12 that you're being every intentional 17:14 about it and planning. 17:15 And we have wonderful quality time together, 17:18 and I tell people who do know us well, 17:20 "Don't worry," you know, last year, 17:22 when I got invited to go to Taiwan 17:24 to do a week of prayer, she went with me. 17:26 So were together for nearly two weeks. 17:29 Our upcoming trip to Israel is almost two weeks, 17:33 she's with me. 17:34 So on this bigger and longer trips 17:36 and exotic places and that kind of things, 17:38 she comes, so we can experience all that, 17:40 you know, together. 17:42 Yeah, where she wants to come. Have some more together there. 17:43 Absolutely. Beautiful. 17:44 Then during the week, 17:46 we always have at least one date night 17:49 which means that I am not known or... 17:53 Not even heard? 17:55 Out there in my community 17:56 because I come home to spend time with my, 17:58 you know, wife and family, and nurture that 18:02 'cause I don't have time to go out and get together 18:03 with my buddies very often. 18:05 So you go out for froyo, right? Yes. 18:06 So what's it called? Mixed Up Cup Mixed Up Cup. 18:10 So tell us just a little bit about that. 18:12 She runs this little eatery. You know, I have to tell you. 18:15 I went out to eat in that neighborhood 18:17 and then we went there for dessert, 18:19 and when I got there, I was like, 18:20 "I should have eaten here. 18:21 This is amazing." 18:23 You have wraps, you have sandwiches. 18:24 You have so many choices. 18:25 And her goal is healthy and organic food, 18:29 and so it's not just food that tastes good 18:32 'cause oftentimes 18:33 we associate healthy food with... 18:35 Vegan. Not so tasty food. 18:37 Exactly right. Oh, yeah. 18:38 But she, having been a chef, makes this food that is healthy 18:43 and is very, very tasty, and with a lot of desire. 18:44 I'm definitely hitting that place up when I'm back. 18:46 I'm telling you I am. Now where is this place? 18:48 In the Chattanooga area where we live. 18:49 Oh, I'm in Wisconsin. Yeah. 18:51 And you don't want froyo anyway, 18:53 you're freezing. 18:54 Cold already. 18:56 So can you talk to us 18:57 about how growing up under a dictatorship 19:00 has affected your view of American life 19:04 and in particular, politics. 19:06 If you can, you know, just touch on that. 19:07 We don't want to alienate anyone, 19:09 but I've just noticed 19:11 in some of your Twitter comments 19:12 that you value capitalism, you value freedom, 19:17 you are a little suspicious of some of the far left, 19:21 which a lot of people are fearful of the far right, 19:24 particularly, young people, 19:25 they don't realize that there's just a militant movement 19:27 on the left, I feel. 19:29 So you seem to have your antenna for that 19:32 and it seems to me because you grew up 19:34 under a far left communist regime, 19:38 you know? 19:39 Well, any time you get into extremes, 19:42 you have a problem. 19:43 What did Jesus say, 19:45 and if we would just follow that, 19:46 we would be in so much better shape. 19:47 Amen. He said, "Stay in the middle." 19:49 Yeah. 19:50 And so we have these tendencies to go off into these areas, 19:54 and that's what brings us problem, 19:55 and that's what brings us division. 19:56 But let me clarify, 19:58 and this is getting a little philosophical, 19:59 but it's the middle of two biblical truths. 20:00 It's not like that person's truth, 20:02 and that's person's... 20:03 I'm just going go in the middle. 20:05 It's not middle of the road per se. 20:07 That would be Syncretism, just speaking philosophically. 20:09 But we want the middle of two biblical truths, 20:12 and the Bible presents a form 20:15 of government in the Old Testament 20:16 that is of really a great blend of the freedoms, 20:19 of free enterprise 20:21 that you would find in capitalism, 20:22 but also some social programs that you would find 20:25 in a more socialistic government, 20:27 and it's kind of a blend of those things, 20:28 like the ability to glean on the part of poor people, 20:30 the glean fields, the Jubilee, like you said, 20:33 it was the reset button on the economy. 20:35 So you and I talked 20:36 about capitalistic greed getting out of control, 20:39 and that's a bad thing too. 20:41 So you are pro-capitalism, the freedom of capitalism 20:43 because you know that freedom is essential to development. 20:46 And that's what I'm talking about in the extremes 20:48 because you can have extreme capitalism 20:50 which hurts people 20:52 and then you can have extreme government control 20:54 which is ideally and originally supposed 20:57 to level the playing field for everybody, 21:00 but what happens is, as government or church 21:04 or any organization starts getting more and more control, 21:07 they give up less and less of it 21:09 and they take more and more of it. 21:11 And that is my concerns in any situation. 21:14 So how should a church, for instance, 21:15 balance authority and freedom? 21:19 Like, we don't want to completely... 21:21 we don't want the world church leadership 21:23 to completely lose authority. 21:24 Right. 21:26 We have guidelines that are in the Word of God, 21:28 and that's a great place to start. 21:30 And the Bible does say there are mechanisms. 21:34 When you have a problem, you talk to your brother, 21:36 then you go to others. 21:38 And so God has established 21:41 very, very successful ways of dealing with things. 21:45 Any time you have a head of the church 21:48 that just thinks that this is how it has to be done 21:50 and there's no discussion 21:52 and there's no coming to an agreement on something, 21:57 just like in a home. 21:59 I grew in a very patriarchal society, 22:01 and so, at home, 22:03 even though I had a loving home, 22:05 and in most Hispanic and Latin homes, 22:07 whatever the man says, it goes. 22:09 And I remember, when we got here, 22:11 my dad would say to my mom, 22:12 "Hey, I'm thinking about buying this car." 22:14 And my mom would say, "Oh, that's not a good idea." 22:17 She had no scientific proof, she had no information, 22:22 it was just that sixth sense. 22:24 That women have. Exactly right. 22:26 And you know what? My dad didn't pay attention. 22:28 He bought the car, and the car was a lemon. 22:31 And I can't tell you how many times that happened. 22:34 Did she mock him for it? 22:35 Or did she... 22:37 I don't know about mocking, but... 22:38 Well, just so he learned. Yeah, hopefully. 22:41 So when you say church, 22:45 you are including even a local church, 22:47 you know, not just... 22:48 Certainly. Certainly. 22:50 I went to churches 22:51 'cause I do concerts in many different 22:53 denominations in churches. 22:54 I've been to churches 22:55 where the pastor is like, you know... 22:57 A dictator. 22:59 The representative of God, yeah. 23:00 And whatever the pastor says, it's done, 23:03 and nobody questions it. 23:05 I think that's a problem. 23:06 You would call that authoritarianism. 23:08 Mm-hmm? Yeah. 23:09 Are you ever approached before a concert and told 23:13 or, I should say, 23:14 requested not to do certain pieces 23:17 because of certain styles or types. 23:18 Well, he does all hymns. So he's really safe. 23:20 Yeah, most certainly. 23:22 I've been... 23:23 Oh, you can do hymns in different styles, 23:25 but have you ever been requested not to do certain... 23:26 Many times. Really? 23:29 Many times, I've been told, "If you come to our church, 23:33 you can't have a ponytail." 23:34 Oh, so you put it up in a bun when they say that. 23:38 You wore a cap? Do the Japanese samurai thing. 23:40 What do you do for your hair? Sometimes I cut my hair. 23:42 Sometimes I said, "You know what? 23:44 If that is the criteria for having me, 23:46 I'm not coming to your church. 23:47 If that's what you're focusing on, 23:48 I think you're focusing on the wrong thing." 23:50 It all depends on the approach. 23:52 I've had churches that said to me, 23:54 "You know, we are a little bit more contemporary. 23:56 Could you play more contemporary music 23:58 because our congregation doesn't know the old hymns." 24:00 Or, "Would you play, 24:01 we're a little more traditional?" 24:03 And so I'm happy to oblige, 24:04 but if you are going to make that a focal issue, 24:07 then all of a sudden, 24:09 I'm not really there to do what I'm supposed to do. 24:11 You are not a person anymore. 24:12 I'm just there to please your parameters. 24:13 You are not an individual anymore. 24:15 You are part of the system. Exactly right. 24:16 And I don't want to be. 24:18 You said that, you know, authoritarianism entails, 24:20 you know, never discussing anything. 24:22 Now certainly you can't discuss with a three-year old 24:24 whether they should eat the cigarette butt or not. 24:26 So there's a place for just saying, "You can't." 24:28 That's correct. 24:29 So how, if you had children, which I know you don't, 24:31 but how would you deal with situations like that? 24:33 And if you were a pastor of a congregation 24:36 and there was, genuine, like, heresy 24:38 or problems in the congregation, 24:40 would there be a place for exercising authority? 24:43 There certainly is, 24:44 and I remember times when my dad said to me, 24:48 "You are going to practice the violin," 24:50 and I said to my mom and my dad, 24:52 "I don't want to practice anymore." 24:54 You know, and they would say, 24:56 "Well, God has given you this talent. 24:58 When you are old enough 24:59 to make those kinds of decisions, 25:01 then you can make that decision." 25:03 Like, famously, I always quote my mom saying, 25:06 "As long as you live in my house, 25:08 you are going to practice the violin." 25:09 And now you are so grateful that those were the realities. 25:11 Exactly right. 25:13 And that's a biblical principle. 25:14 And I see so many young people who've grown up, 25:15 and come and tell me, 25:17 "I wish I would've stuck with it. 25:18 I wish I would've listened to my parents." 25:19 I'm one right here 25:21 because my parents didn't pressure me, 25:22 and I played piano by ear, but I never learned notes, 25:25 and I would've been a much better player 25:27 if I had stuck with it. 25:28 So there is a good place for authority. 25:30 It needs to be God, Spirit-led authority, 25:34 and that's the difference, not just my whim, 25:36 or just because I say so, it's going to go. 25:39 But also always upholding 25:41 the sense of freedom of conscience. 25:44 I mean, as Seventh-day Adventists, 25:45 isn't that at our core? 25:47 A freedom of choice. 25:48 Core of our believes is freedom of conscience. 25:50 So what you do 25:52 as an authority figure is you say, 25:54 "I'm not telling you what to do, 25:55 but I'm telling you what will happen 25:57 if you do this or this." 25:58 That's key. 25:59 And as a parent, 26:01 I work with parents to teach them 26:02 as choice-based parenting, where you say, 26:04 "Look, I'm not going to tell you what to do. 26:05 You've got to make your own choice. 26:07 But I will tell you, if you do that, 26:09 you can't use the car this weekend." 26:11 Or, "You are going to lose your allowances," 26:12 or whatever the consequences are. 26:13 And there's a world of difference. 26:15 It's essentially what Joshua did. 26:17 Here's Mount Ebal, 26:18 Mount Gerizim, here're the blessings, 26:19 here're the curses, now you choose. 26:21 But choose the right thing. Right. 26:23 Well, the Bible says, "Count the costs." 26:25 Yeah, exactly. "Weigh it out." 26:27 I have a three-year old and a six-year old, 26:29 and a lot of times we are trying to teach them 26:31 to count the costs. 26:33 What God did in the Garden of Eden? 26:35 You know, he gave them freedom of choice, 26:37 and he shared with them very lovingly 26:40 what the outcome could potentially be. 26:42 They made that choice, and yet he came 26:45 behind that choice and still offered them love. 26:47 He said, "I'm going to send 26:48 my Son to die for you to save you." 26:50 Praise the Lord. Amen. 26:51 You know what? 26:52 In other words, you are free to choose, 26:54 but you are not free to choose the outcome 26:55 because there's cause and effect, 26:56 and you make certain choices and the effect is going 26:58 to naturally come with that choice. 26:59 That's why God will still come by our side 27:01 to try to assist and help us, 27:03 to lovingly get back on the right track. 27:05 Amen. 27:06 And this is such an important point to end on 27:08 because Jesus said, 27:10 "If the Son has made you free, you'll be free indeed." 27:14 God's kind of leadership, 27:15 even though he is vested with authority, 27:18 is of leadership that grants freedom 27:20 and creates an environment of freedom 27:23 in which people can actually experience love for Him 27:27 and for one and another. 27:29 There couldn't be a sharper contrast 27:30 between God's way of leading and a dictator's way of leading 27:34 because that's really Satan's way of leading, 27:36 it's controlling people and preventing love 27:38 in the process of control. 27:40 It's been such a blessing to unpack all these things. 27:42 I wish we had many more segments 27:44 to be able to do this, 27:46 but may God bless you as you contemplate this. 27:48 "If the Son has made you free, you will be free indeed." 27:52 Amen. 27:53 Join us next time for A Multitude of Counselors. |
Revised 2018-11-26