Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170031A
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00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're so glad you've joined us for our program today. 00:32 We're going to be talking about sleep and sleep deprivation 00:36 and insomnia and things like that. 00:38 But I want to ask you a question. 00:40 What do president Donald Trump, Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, 00:44 Pepsico chairwoman Indra Nooyi, Entrepreneur Martha Stewart, 00:48 German Chancellor Angela Merkel, 00:51 and the late Thomas Edison 00:53 and Leonardo da Vinci have in common? 00:56 They all slept four hours or less per night. 01:00 Today our guest is one of those people that doesn't sleep... 01:04 Maybe not even four hours per night, 01:05 he's going to tell us about his miserable life of insomnia, 01:09 Shawn Boonstra. 01:10 You've tried so many things and so far no success. 01:13 Am I right? Yeah, that's probably true. 01:15 I think from about the age of eight on, 01:17 I don't remember ever sleeping through the whole night. 01:20 I don't have any recollection of ever going to bed 01:23 and waking up at morning time, at breakfast time and saying, 01:26 "Oh, I slept all night." 01:27 That's never happened for me. 01:29 And probably four or five hours on average. 01:30 Okay, all right. 01:31 You poor thing, I really feel for you, I do. 01:33 But I want to put some across to you, so normally, 01:36 sleep deprivation has been correlated 01:38 with a number of health problems, 01:40 memory issues, difficulty focusing, low mood, 01:43 reduced immune system function, accidents, no wonder there, 01:47 high blood pressure, weight gain, lower sex drive, 01:50 heart disease, diabetes risk, poor balance, 01:53 there's a condition called fatal familial insomnia, 01:55 only about 100 people in the world have it, 01:57 it's caused by a mutation of a gene, 01:59 and ultimately makes people unable to sleep. 02:02 They develop paranoia, 02:03 they ultimately develop dementia, 02:05 and they die. 02:07 So much to look forward to. 02:10 I regret coming on the show. 02:11 How is it for a prognosis, okay? 02:15 Okay, but there are basically two categories of individuals 02:18 who do not sleep much, 02:20 sleep deprivation survivors and short sleepers, 02:23 and I want to identify the difference. 02:25 Some people who seem to need little sleep, 02:28 actually just power through the effects 02:30 of sleep deprivation better than the rest of us. 02:33 But short sleepers are in a different category altogether, 02:36 so I'm going to quote Dr. Christopher Jones 02:38 professor of clinical neurology at the University of Utah, 02:41 and he says that he has only identified about 02:43 20 true short sleepers, 02:45 and he says that they share some 02:47 fascinating characteristics. 02:48 Number one, 02:49 their circadian rhythms are just different, 02:51 their body clock, so to speak, their moods tend to be upbeat, 02:55 they're thinner than average, 02:57 even though people that are sleep deprived 02:59 tend to gain weight, 03:00 they tend to have 03:01 a high tolerance for physical pain, 03:03 and they tend to be very optimistic 03:06 and not take psychological setbacks very hard. 03:10 So they are very buoyant people. 03:13 Short sleepers are part of the sleep elite, 03:15 comprising about one to three percent of the population. 03:18 Hope that makes you feel special. 03:20 And I'm quoting now, 03:22 "1 out of every 100 people who believe 03:24 they only need 5 or 6 hours of sleep, 03:27 only about 5 of them really do," 03:29 and that's psychiatrist is Daniel Buysse, 03:31 and he says, "The rest end up chronically sleep deprived, 03:34 part of the one-third of the US adults 03:36 who get less than the recommended 03:38 seven hours of sleep per night." 03:40 So which one are you? 03:43 I don't know. 03:45 A short sleeper 03:46 or a sleep deprivation survivor, do you know? 03:50 I don't know because I think, sometimes, 03:53 I absolutely feel it. 03:55 I get little sleep, but I wish I got more. 03:57 So it's not like I sleep four hours and go, 04:00 "Oh, wow, that was great," 04:01 and get on with the day and I'm happy about it. 04:04 Often, you know, what's strange is that 04:05 when 5 o'clock rolls around, 04:07 it's time to get up, now I could sleep. 04:09 Now I would love to sleep. 04:11 And so I don't know that I would say 04:12 that I'm one of those one percent 04:14 that can get by on 4 or 5 hours and loves it. 04:17 Do I power through? 04:19 Yeah, I power through it all the time. 04:21 I tend to be happy, I tend to be easygoing, 04:24 but I absolutely feel the effects 04:26 of sleep deprivation, particularly in the mornings. 04:29 You can't be a short sleeper then 'cause short sleepers 04:31 don't feel the effects of sleep deprivation, 04:33 they get four or less per night. 04:34 No, I often wish I could get more. 04:36 So what are the effects? 04:37 What effects that you feel, Shawn? 04:39 I think... 04:41 How do I describe this? I'll describe it this way. 04:43 In the morning, everything is too bright and loud, 04:45 everything is too bright and loud. 04:46 It's like, "Oh, turn down the lights, 04:48 turn down your voice, 04:49 I am not ready for this world yet." 04:51 Yeah, and so... 04:52 So you're the classic not a morning person. 04:55 No, and I've got a houseful of morning people. 04:58 I had a father, who is a... 05:00 Or still is, he's still around, a morning person, 05:03 he used to get up and do dishes at 5:00 in the morning 05:04 before he went to work, and I'd be, "Oh, no, no." 05:07 And he would sing as he was washing the dishes. 05:09 To this day, there's a certain 05:11 little Bible course I hate seeing it. 05:16 Do you think you might have some sensory processing stuff 05:18 because it sounds like you really react to sights 05:20 and sounds, you know, pretty intensely. 05:22 No, no, it's just... I can't... 05:26 You guys are the experts, that's why I'm here. 05:28 You're here to fix me. 05:30 We hope to. 05:32 We're going to try our absolute best. 05:33 I find sounds... 05:36 I find sounds annoying, loud sounds and sharp sounds 05:40 annoying all day long anyway. 05:41 I mean, that's an issue, and I hear everything. 05:44 I used to as a kid, and this maybe 05:46 led to not sleeping well at night. 05:48 I hear absolutely everything. 05:50 It's like what is the... 05:52 There's a gland that serves as an organ that... 05:55 Or as a filter that tells you what to hear 05:57 and what not to hear. 05:58 And I tend to hear more than most people in a room. 06:00 Maybe it doesn't work. 06:01 It could be that it doesn't work. 06:03 I used to look for my watch. 06:04 Back then when watches ticked, you know, 06:05 you wound them up and they ticked. 06:07 As a little boy, I used to look for my watch 06:09 by standing in my bedroom and closing my eyes 06:11 and listening for the ticking. 06:12 You have very good hearing. 06:13 I did, maybe it's ruined now, but yeah. 06:16 So that is always sensitive. So you're sensitive. 06:18 So we were talking before about how you 06:21 function best cognitively at night, late at night. 06:24 Oh, yeah, absolutely. 06:25 'Cause I'm the sharpest in the morning 06:27 when I first wake up. 06:28 Yeah, you and my wife. 06:30 She outwits me, you know, five to one in the morning 06:32 'cause I can't formulate decent responses, 06:34 I actually trip up on words in the morning. 06:37 Really? Yeah. 06:38 And I can't concentrate on... 06:40 If I have to prep for something, 06:41 first thing in the morning is not a good idea. 06:43 So for example, if I've got a presentation tomorrow, 06:45 I'll go over it at 11:00 PM at night out loud, 06:49 and then I've got it forever, you know? 06:50 But first thing in the morning... 06:52 You won't retain it if you do in the morning. 06:53 No, not at all. How about that? 06:54 That's so odd. Not at all. 06:56 So Shawn, what does powering through look like? 07:02 Well, you get up and you go to work anyway, 07:04 you're exhausted. 07:06 Well, there are plenty of people 07:07 that end up addicted to power drinks, 07:11 caffeine, all that jazz, 07:13 I'm not a not expecting you to be in that category, 07:16 but I wanted to know what your powering through looks like? 07:20 How do you do it? 07:21 You just do it. 07:23 I don't know how you explain it. 07:24 You know, I tend to go for a walk in the mornings, 07:26 I try to do between five and six miles 07:28 before I go to work, and that gets you kind of... 07:31 And that'll raise your epinephrine levels. 07:33 And get you outside, 07:35 you get a little sunlight on your skin, 07:36 and your body says, "Wake up time." 07:37 Helps you get circulation, 07:39 you're lymphic system is moving. 07:41 Yeah, yeah, I'll do anywhere between 5 and 10. 07:44 So would you say that there are some baseline anxieties 07:46 that are driving the insomnia or is it not that deep? 07:49 Do we have to talk about that? Yeah, it's why you're here. 07:52 You want us to fix you, right? 07:54 This will cost you about $400 in a normal setting, so... 07:58 Oh, no, no, no, we're way more expensive. 07:59 Yeah, exactly, maybe five, six... 08:01 Four of you working on me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 08:04 I cannot. 08:05 I think one of the key issues is 08:08 I can't turn my mind off at night. 08:10 Now, I look at Jean. 08:11 Jean and I've been married 25 years. 08:13 And she can fall asleep hanging in her seatbelt 08:16 on the drive home. 08:17 I don't know how she does it. 08:19 She goes to bed, and two seconds later, 08:21 she's gone, head hits the pillow. 08:24 It doesn't matter what time I go to bed, 08:26 I need two or three hours in bed 08:28 for my mind to quiet down. 08:29 There's no question about it. 08:31 Two or three hours before you... 08:32 Oh, yeah, I lay in bed for two or three hours before I... 08:34 You read while you're doing that or you're just staring? 08:36 Yeah, I read, I take notes or I listen to something. 08:39 I don't want to waste the time. I want education. 08:41 I'm up... But you're in bed. 08:43 Yeah, absolutely. 08:45 Okay, so you're kind of trying to shut down, 08:46 but it takes you two to three hours 08:48 to shut down. 08:49 Oh, yeah, usually. 08:51 There's no going to bed and falling asleep for me, 08:52 it's two to three hours. 08:54 So have you heard of the concept of sleep hygiene? 08:56 I'm sure you have. Yeah, yeah. 08:58 So one of those thoughts is whatever you do 09:01 for your evening routine, if it takes two hours, 09:06 do all of that outside of your bedroom. 09:09 Yeah, and I've gone that route, 09:10 and so what happens is I do that two to three hours 09:12 of that outside the bedroom, and I go to bed, 09:14 and then spend two or three hours. 09:16 With the next phase. Okay. Yeah. 09:17 So you said, you can't turn your mind off, 09:19 do you have a wild guess about whether 09:21 there are some unresolved anxieties, 09:23 maybe trauma that occurred in your... 09:25 Is there anything that's... No, I don't think so. 09:28 No, unless I'm hiding or repressing something, 09:30 I don't think so. I can't just turn the day off. 09:34 I need resolution on everything that happens. 09:35 What kinds of things do you think about 09:37 when you're lying there trying to shut down? 09:39 Well, things start occurring to you. 09:41 Oh, my goodness, tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM, 09:43 you're giving this. 09:45 Are you sure that it's ready yet? 09:46 You know what, you should touch this up a little bit. 09:48 Okay, pop up, fix that. And you touch it up. 09:50 And touch it up. 09:52 Oh, my goodness, where are the receipts, 09:53 it's going to be tax time in 90 days. 09:56 And you really have this or that receipt. 09:58 I better go find it. 09:59 And then I go find it, and then... 10:01 You get out of bed and go find it? 10:02 Yeah, absolutely. Okay. 10:03 And you do that for two or three hours, 10:05 and keep going back to bed and try to shut down. 10:06 Yeah, that drives my wife nuts. 10:09 I can only imagine. 10:10 At one point, I actually moved a desk in beside my bed 10:13 instead of a nightstand so that I didn't have to leave 10:17 to get things done. 10:18 But Jean shut that down really quick, 10:20 it didn't last very long. 10:21 A little desk with a lamp, and I turn the light on, 10:23 and sit there, and take care of it. 10:25 Does she stay awake because you're awake 10:26 or is she able to sleep through your not being able to sleep? 10:28 Before we had kids, 10:30 she never noticed that we were... 10:32 And then once we had kids, of course, 10:33 her sleep pattern changed. 10:34 Because she's trying to listen for babies. 10:36 She's trying to listen for the kids. 10:37 And she got a big old baby there in a room 10:40 making a mess out of things. 10:42 Yeah, so she notices more now. 10:47 And I don't know how much I can betray on that, 10:50 to the point now where we were... 10:52 Jean, forgive me, I'm about to do this, 10:54 I'm about to do this. 10:57 We're now Ricky and Lucy, we got rid of the king bed, 11:00 and we put two twin beds with a gap about 11:02 six inches between it 11:03 so that she doesn't feel me kicking my legs. 11:05 I totally get that. 11:06 Yeah, and getting up, and... 11:08 I doesn't mean anything about your love for each other, 11:10 it's just you can't sleep in the same bed, it's okay. 11:13 We are giving you permission, 11:14 and we will not think you're on the edge of divorce. 11:16 That's not such a bad idea. 11:18 When we first got married, my husband was... 11:20 He's the morning person, I'm not, 11:22 so I would want to be able to stay away at night, 11:24 but he crashed. 11:26 The man turns into a pumpkin at 9:00. 11:28 But he would bound out of bed, like literally, 11:30 the whole bed leaped when he got out of bed, 11:32 he'd wake up, zip-zam and he'd jump, 11:34 and the whole bed would go... 11:36 And I would go... 11:37 You weren't ready to get up yet. 11:38 Let's not do that again. 11:40 So we... 11:42 And when she was getting up and stuff, 11:44 I'd finally fall asleep, and then a kid cries, 11:46 I'm up and she tensed it 'cause she's got a... 11:48 She sleeps through it? What's that? 11:50 When you had little children, 11:52 she would sleep through the children crying? 11:53 No, never. 11:54 No, never, but if I happen to fall asleep 11:56 and she got up to address a need. 11:57 Then you'd be... Yeah. 11:59 Yeah. Yeah. 12:01 Where are you in terms of your sleep pattern presently? 12:04 Are you at a place where you've accepted this as your norm 12:07 and you are content or are you still... 12:09 Resignation is probably a better word than accept. 12:12 Here I am, I'm here on the show 12:13 because would I love to sleep more? 12:16 Would I love to sleep normally? 12:18 Yeah, I really would. 12:20 So resignation is a good word. 12:22 So maybe it'll never be different. 12:23 You know, I've done a little asking around, my grandmother, 12:25 she's been gone for a long time, 12:27 grandma on the dad's side, she never slept, 12:29 and so I don't know if there's a genetic determination 12:32 or if we're just... 12:33 Worrying is a hard word for it, but I can't turn it off. 12:37 I don't know if I'm anxious. 12:39 Maybe I'm anxious enough to keep me awake, 12:41 but I can't just stop. 12:43 Okay, so put in a sentence what is the baseline fear 12:47 going on there when you're thinking about the taxes, 12:49 you said you're thinking about the presentation, 12:50 what are you thinking I will not be what? 12:52 What's it saying about? Ready, I won't be ready. 12:54 I won't be ready. 12:55 What's so scary about that? 12:57 I like being ready. 12:58 You like being ready, but what happens if you're not ready, 13:00 it's a lost what? 13:02 Fear of lost opportunity. Yeah. 13:04 Okay, that's real common with anxiety is people are afraid. 13:08 I remember my family going off to... 13:10 They're going to go out to eat, I didn't want to come, 13:12 I was a teenager, and I was like, 13:13 "Leave me alone, I don't want to be with the family." 13:15 As they were pulling out of the driveway, 13:17 that little family station wagon, 13:18 I freaked out and start chasing the car screaming, 13:21 "Come back, come back" 13:22 'cause of fear of being left behind 13:24 or lost opportunity. 13:26 And I am finding counseling people 13:27 that that's a common baseline fear that people have. 13:30 I'm not going to make it. 13:31 Somehow something is going to be left undone, 13:35 and I'm going to miss out on something. 13:36 Undone bothers me. 13:38 Yeah, so talk to me about how you as an evangelist 13:41 who are helping people get ready for the ultimate 13:45 potential lost opportunity, Jesus coming... 13:48 calming those people down and still worried about 13:50 missing out yourself? 13:54 I have... 13:56 I guess I've compartmentalize that. 13:57 I think that would be the fair way to describe it 14:00 because I have zero anxiety about my ultimate destiny, 14:05 I have none, zero. 14:07 I don't worry. 14:08 If I die tonight, I'm safe with the Lord. 14:10 If Jesus comes today, I'm good. 14:12 And so I suppose I've compartmentalized 14:13 those in my brain is that's a different issue. 14:16 But couldn't they believe... 14:17 I mean, shouldn't there be some bleed over 14:18 because isn't the ultimate loss salvation? 14:21 Well, absolutely. 14:23 And what keeps you from being afraid of losing that? 14:29 Being afraid, what keeps me from 14:30 being afraid of losing self... 14:31 Of losing that, how do you get that security? 14:33 Is it in something you've done or not done 14:35 or is it in the character of God. 14:36 Because if he can find that. Yeah, that... 14:39 I have never had a moment of insecurity about salvation. 14:43 I've never had. But on what basis, you know? 14:45 Basis is God's word. God says, "This is it." 14:48 And so it doesn't matter how I feel about it, right? 14:51 One of the biggest breakthrough moments for me 14:53 was when somebody showed me. 14:55 I grew up around Christians, 14:57 and I grew up around Christians that had all... 14:59 They love to give these testimonies 15:00 where they had these really profound 15:02 conversion experiences. 15:04 "Oh, you know, 15:05 I felt an electricity going through my body." 15:07 And I think, "Well, wait a minute, 15:08 I said the prayer too, and I felt nothing, 15:09 and what in the world..." 15:12 And then somebody showed me 1 John 5, 15:13 "These things I have written unto you that you may know." 15:16 Not that you may feel. 15:18 So how I feel is irrelevant to how God views me. 15:21 It's completely irrelevant. 15:23 Am I cognizant of the fact 15:24 that if I had to stand before God's throne, 15:26 it would be a wilting experience 15:28 because I know who I am? 15:29 Sure, I know who I am. 15:31 Yeah, and I look in the mirror, and I know that I'm not... 15:33 I know who I am. 15:34 I've seen the real me peek through. 15:36 But you've also seen the love and character of God. 15:37 Yeah, but the real Jesus 15:39 peeking through has handled that, 15:40 that's done, right? 15:41 That's done. 15:43 I don't know that it's so much a fear 15:44 of not being ready for things, I am driven. 15:49 Maybe, maybe it's the Dutch immigrant mentality. 15:54 If you're going to work, you do it a 1000%, 15:57 you do your very best. 15:58 And my question is... Type A, super driven... 16:00 Have you ever... "Is it my best?" 16:01 Is the question that bothers me more than am I going to lose. 16:03 Okay, have you ever tried under-functioning 16:05 just to sort of help yourself face your biggest fear. 16:08 I would never. 16:09 It's just an experiment. 16:11 Just as an experiment. Really? 16:12 I tell people like you... 16:13 Under-function. 16:15 leave some typos in your emails, 16:16 do something. 16:18 No, oh, are you kidding me? 16:19 We're going to... You need to get past this. 16:20 Yeah, yeah. 16:22 You've got to be kidding. 16:23 How are you going to get past this? 16:24 Oh, you've touched something there. 16:26 There is no way. 16:27 You have a desire for improvement, right? 16:28 You don't want to be in this perpetual sleep state, 16:32 and so we're suggesting an alternative, 16:34 that you can possibly... 16:36 You know that if I keep something... 16:37 Maybe you are under-functioning 16:39 in the area of anxiety handling, 16:40 and maybe the way to help yourself function better 16:44 is to under-function in other areas. 16:46 If I find a tweet from last year 16:48 that I sent out with a typo in it, 16:49 I will delete it and retweet it from a year ago. 16:53 I purposely leave typos in my tweets 16:56 to rebuke my inner Pharisee, and my inner perfectionist. 17:01 Inner Pharisee? 17:02 Perfectionism is a better way. Perfectionism, yeah. 17:04 Yeah, better word, I do it on purpose. 17:06 I see the typo often after I've tweeted, I'm like, 17:09 "Oh, I didn't see it before." 17:11 But I'll leave it there for the purpose of helping me 17:14 not be a perfectionist. 17:16 I'm going to reveal something 17:17 that I've never wanted to reveal. 17:19 And counselors love that, oh. 17:20 So watch you guys light up, looking at you light up. 17:21 Oh, it's not that dark. 17:23 No, no, I studied music formally for nine years 17:27 at the Toronto Conservatory. 17:29 And in that environment what you do 17:32 is you take something on, 17:33 I'm not going to say what I did, 17:35 but you take something on. 17:36 You take on a Beethoven or a... 17:37 Because I don't want to start performing. 17:39 Okay. 17:41 I haven't touched it in 30 years. 17:42 I haven't touched it in 30 years. 17:44 But you take something, a Beethoven, 17:47 and you work on it for 6 months for one performance, 17:51 and that one performance... 17:52 Has to be perfect. Has to be perfect. 17:54 And there was something thrilling about that, 17:57 I've got to tell you, the psychological payoff 18:01 for getting up from the instrument, 18:03 and you nailed it, and it's one time. 18:06 You go six months for three minutes. 18:10 But, Shawn, why did you not touch it for 30 years? 18:12 What happened there? I got busy doing... 18:14 I became a Christian, I became an evangelist. 18:16 But if someone is a musician, they go back, and they play, 18:19 and they have... 18:20 They do it to relax, but you can't do it to relax. 18:22 Play a different song. 18:23 Oh, I listen to people, but I can hear their mistakes. 18:27 You got to play a different song. 18:30 I have got to go back to your desire for change. 18:33 Yeah. 18:34 And if that is true, which I perceive, 18:37 we perceive that you truly want to have more sleep in your life 18:41 to have more productivity, 18:43 what one thing are you willing to do differently? 18:47 'Cause we can put you on a plane right now 18:49 after the show to the best facility we know. 18:52 I'm kidding. 18:54 I've been in a sleep lab, I've been in a sleep lab, 18:56 and they just kind of shook their heads. 18:58 One of the things we're talking about is you not being perfect, 19:03 you're doing something in your life 19:05 to minimize your desire for perfection. 19:08 Is there one area that you could challenge yourself? 19:14 When I derive joy from something 19:18 I know could have been better, 19:19 I have to admit, I enjoy when we do something well. 19:23 But can't you change the game to doing anxiety defeat 19:27 better than you're doing by avoiding... 19:29 In order to get more sleep. 19:32 I suppose. 19:33 For example, my husband has the same thing that you have, 19:37 this insatiable drive for excellence, 19:40 it must be done well. 19:42 And especially when it's something 19:43 that's done in public, he has to get it done well. 19:46 And so I can predict, I know if he's preaching the next day, 19:49 and he doesn't feel that the sermon is quite right, 19:51 he's going to be wide awake at 2:00 in the morning, 19:54 because he can't sleep. 19:55 Oh, sermons wake me up. 19:57 Because he has to get it right before hand. 20:00 So we have two different options. 20:03 Sometimes, it's a matter of not putting it off 20:06 until the last minute, getting everything ready, 20:09 but I find that still is never fully enough 20:11 because he still has that tension 20:14 that jangling of nerves that makes him pop out of bed. 20:18 But what is helpful is being able to rest and going, 20:22 "It's going to be fine if it's not perfect. 20:26 It doesn't have to be excellent 20:27 in every way possible for me to be a success." 20:30 In fact, sometimes, knowing that he isn't really prepared 20:34 is the thing that helps him to depend more on the Lord. 20:37 I was just going to say that. 20:38 The same kind of security you have in your salvation. 20:41 You talked about that. 20:43 There's no question in your mind, you know that. 20:45 Can you have that same level of security 20:48 in that desire for perfection? 20:51 Can you minimize that with the security in Christ? 20:54 That is good... Because what often happens... 20:57 I don't know if that would drive me more nuts. 20:59 No, I'm being honest, I'm just being right upfront, 21:01 is that the suggestion bothers me. 21:04 Why? What bothers you? 21:05 We can see that. You're sweating. 21:06 One of my favorite stories... 21:08 I sweat all the time, it's over 60 degrees in here, 21:09 I'm Canadian. 21:11 Why does that suggestion bother you? 21:13 One of my favorite stories, 21:14 I don't know if it's a Michelangelo story, 21:16 it's probably apocryphal. 21:17 It's just a sky building a planter box, 21:19 and he's doing the inside perfectly. 21:22 And some guy goes by saying, "What's the point? 21:23 It's gonna be filled with dirt anyway?" 21:26 And he says, "No one's ever going to see it." 21:28 And he says, "Yeah, but..." 21:30 I will. I will. 21:32 Yeah. 21:34 You're your own worst tyrant. 21:35 Oh, probably yeah. 21:37 Sermons, there you go. 21:38 People struggle with this. 21:40 They say, "No, no, you get up front all the time. 21:42 You speak all the time." 21:43 What they don't understand is 21:45 I will spend for an hour long sermon, 21:46 I will on average spend 21:48 between 40 to 100 hours in prep, 21:50 40 to 100 hours because... 21:53 Which I'm thankful for, 21:55 and it makes it much easier to listen to you preach. 21:57 When a pastor gets up and like, 21:58 "I don't know what I'm going to talk about today." 21:59 It's always like, "Okay, here we go." 22:01 No, and see that's not a God like attitude anyway. 22:03 It's interesting that you bring that up 22:05 because I've actually been trying to coach 22:06 myself in those lines. 22:08 It's like, "Don't you trust God? 22:09 And don't you trust Him? 22:11 And don't you remember the moments 22:12 where you got up you threw it all away anyway 22:14 and went off the cuff because God..." 22:15 But it's not a don't you 22:17 because it's very clear that you do. 22:18 Yeah. So because I trust God, I will. 22:22 Well, that's for sure. 22:23 She is saying take the things that you have done so well 22:25 in one area and apply them 22:27 to this area that you were saying, 22:28 which is brilliant I think. 22:29 Couldn't you do that? 22:31 Couldn't you say, "Look, I have no fear"? 22:32 And couldn't you say, "I will survive this experience 22:34 of even my own tyranny not undoing me"? 22:37 I will let it go 22:38 and trust that the God I trust will take care of it. 22:42 I will do my best. 22:43 And trust God to do the rest for me. 22:45 Because fear is a liar. 22:47 No, I concur. 22:49 I concur that fear is a liar. 22:50 Well, here's another way you could take that is, 22:52 what about people who can't power through perfectionism 22:56 as well as you are, 22:57 and it really does become their own doing, 22:59 people with OCD who end up like wanting to suicide. 23:02 It happens. 23:03 So you would be setting an example for them. 23:05 I went ahead and published a tweet 23:07 and left it a typo in it. 23:09 And I know this will help you too 23:10 because it helped me get, 23:12 you know, you're living in a way you're saying... 23:13 Honestly. Challenging myself. 23:16 I'm fighting against my desire but yet I am... 23:19 No, that OCD is interesting. 23:23 What would you define as OCD? 23:24 OCD is two characteristics. 23:26 It's you have... Obsession. 23:28 Obsessions where you have invasive thoughts 23:31 that come into your mind about a variety of things, germs, 23:33 turn the iron off, sometimes religious things... 23:36 Oh, is the house locked? 23:37 Is the house locked? Yeah. 23:38 About three times a week I drive back to double check. 23:40 And the compulsions are designed 23:43 to lower the anxiety that you're experiencing 23:46 because of the invasive thoughts. 23:47 So the obsession comes, you're scared. 23:49 You do the compulsion to try to... 23:51 but it only temporarily lowers the anxiety 23:53 and then it comes back with a vengeance. 23:54 So you end up doing it over and over and over. 23:56 And the treatment for OCD 23:58 is called exposure and response prevention. 24:00 So if a person is afraid of germs, 24:02 they have to leave the germs on the doorknob. 24:04 And they sit there and self-observe and they go, 24:06 "You know, it bothers me." 24:08 They're being honest. 24:09 "But it's not killing me. 24:10 And I'm doing my deep breathing and I'm getting through this. 24:12 And I don't have to wash off that doorknob." 24:15 And it's called the systematic desensitization, 24:17 it's another word for it. 24:18 But you could do that for yourself maybe. 24:21 I think the critical issue... 24:23 You guys are laughing but, you know... 24:25 We don't know how hard it is. It suits for you. 24:26 Everything in this picture is about motivation. 24:29 It's about the heart. 24:30 And I think looking at what's motivating you to be so driven 24:35 could be useful. 24:36 It's a mix of things. 24:38 I think part of what's motivating you 24:39 to desire excellence is your desire 24:42 to glorify God with your whole heart your whole life. 24:44 And that's beautiful and that's powerful 24:46 and God wants that. 24:47 But maybe part of your motivation is also fear. 24:50 Could be fear of what other people think of you, 24:52 fear of what you'll feel like about yourself 24:54 if you don't have everything perfect. 24:56 And God wants to continually purify our motivations 24:59 so that He moves us toward being motivated 25:02 only by love and not by the other things. 25:04 There might be something to that. 25:06 'Cause you might be able to help so many more people 25:11 that have the exact same fear 25:13 that you have about their salvation. 25:18 By you working through this issue... 25:21 You will maybe able to communicate 25:23 a different level of breakthrough 25:25 for so many people 25:26 because we work with the people 25:28 that are scared out of their minds... 25:30 That they're not going to make it. 25:31 They're not gonna be ready 25:33 because they've got all these other issues in their life. 25:36 So, Shawn, we want to help you so you can help the rest. 25:39 You have a big reach. 25:42 You know, when it comes to the salvation question 25:45 and helping those, 25:47 I guess I do compartmentalize it 25:48 because a long time ago, 25:50 I gave up on the idea that you can earn heaven 25:53 or I'm not perfect that's the whole point of the story. 25:55 Right. 25:58 Nicole, you said something a moment ago that... 26:01 We don't want you to become perfectionistic 26:02 about having to overcome your perfectionism. 26:05 Seriously. No, seriously because you... 26:06 May just be it's almost like a facial tick. 26:08 You just have this, 26:09 you know, it's a thing that you do, you know? 26:10 I enjoy doing well at things. 26:13 Yeah. But that's... 26:14 Nothing is as mortifying. 26:16 That I wonder if that payback also has a price. 26:18 I don't know. 26:20 I don't tend to lay away. 26:21 Like not sleeping and things like that. 26:23 Yeah, not sleeping. Yeah. 26:24 Things aren't done is really the thing that, 26:27 "Is that ready? Is it ready?" 26:28 Would you be willing to experiment? 26:31 In other words, you'd have to commit yourself 26:32 to a new way of doing things 26:33 but try doing it a different way, 26:35 like try underfunctioning sometimes 26:38 or try imperfection sometimes. 26:39 Yeah, I'd try that. For a few days maybe. 26:42 That might be a blubbering mess at the end of the day, 26:44 but yeah. 26:45 Initially. You know, I just... 26:47 We can provide that plane ride to the support center though. 26:52 You said something, Nicole, 26:54 I want to circle back to because... 26:55 and it was something to do with... 26:58 it triggered a thought 26:59 because I do suffer from that naked in class dream. 27:04 You get that one? Yeah I had that dream. 27:06 I didn't know anybody else did. 27:07 Or... 27:09 Only us perfectionists can. 27:10 It's your final exam and you can't find the room. 27:13 Yes. Yeah. 27:15 I don't show up to class all semester 27:16 and find out I'm halfway through the semester 27:18 and I still haven't made it to a class. 27:20 Yeah, yeah. 27:21 You're not gonna graduate 27:22 because you didn't show up to calculus class 27:24 you didn't even know you were enrolled in. 27:25 Because you weren't ready. 27:26 Because I wasn't ready. That's all true. 27:28 It's a similar thing. 27:30 This is so grippingly interesting, 27:31 and we're gonna have to carry it on 27:33 in the second half of the program. 27:34 So, folks, please join us 27:36 because we're just getting warmed up here. 27:38 We're digging down into the depths 27:40 of the psyche of Shawn Buster 27:42 which is a privilege that... 27:43 It's a dark place. 27:45 Few people have in life. 27:47 And not only one or two or three 27:50 but four of us are working on this project 27:52 that we hope to resolve. 27:53 Please join us for the second half of the man 27:55 who almost never slept. |
Revised 2018-11-29