Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170033A
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00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're so, so thankful that you joined us today 00:31 for our program called My Grief Observed, 00:35 My Grief Observed. 00:37 Our guest today is Mike Tucker, 00:39 someone who is preaching I have enjoyed for many years, 00:42 and I have to say that 00:43 there's a certain warmth to the way he preaches 00:46 that makes me feel like 00:47 he has just hugged the entire congregation 00:49 with the love of a Father. 00:51 It's just something really special about it. 00:53 And the other thing is 00:54 that I could tell even before I knew factually 00:56 and had asked him that he had been in counseling 01:00 and not that you've been in counseling, sorry. 01:02 You know, both may be true. Yeah, exactly. 01:05 But that he was a counselor, and then that was, of course, 01:07 verified recently. 01:10 You know, counseling changes 01:11 the way you think and the way you are, 01:13 and you never see things quite the same 01:15 after you've counseled people, and that's true. 01:17 And it comes through in your preaching. 01:19 And I've been really blessed by it over the years. 01:21 And I'm sure that in the course of your ministry, 01:24 you have counseled many people through grief, true? 01:28 Yeah, absolutely. 01:29 I used to teach grief recovery 01:30 when I was working as a chaplain. 01:32 So, you know, 01:33 it's a topic that I was versed in academically, 01:36 obviously, and experientially as a counselor. 01:40 But when you go through yourself, it's interesting too. 01:43 And that's why we're calling it My Grief Observed. 01:45 And I just want to open with a couple thoughts. 01:47 There are many theories of grief 01:49 and probably the most popular is Elisabeth KA 1/4bler-Ross, 01:53 and she came up with the theory. 01:55 And by the way, she initially formulated her theory 01:57 for people who were dying. 01:59 Her book was called "On Death and Dying." 02:01 But they realized that it applied to people 02:03 that were losing people as well. 02:05 And she broke grieving down into five stages, denial, 02:09 anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. 02:12 And I think there's some logic to that. 02:14 But people have objected to that 02:16 and any formula for grieving 02:19 simply because it isn't that tamable of an animal, 02:23 it cannot be, you know, corralled into distinct stages 02:28 as if it's a task on a list that you check off. 02:32 And that may be the very thing about grief 02:34 that kind of makes it special in a way 02:36 because it's so very inconvenient. 02:40 If you look at human life as something that's functional, 02:43 grief really has no function to it. 02:45 But that's the very thing about it that makes it... 02:48 It proves that we are made in the image of a God 02:52 who grieves. 02:53 And God grieves because God is love, 02:55 and you cannot truly love 02:57 without truly grieving someone you lose, 03:01 but that grieving is extremely inconvenient, 03:03 it serves no functional purpose, 03:05 you just do it because it's part of that love. 03:07 And we made in God's image also grieve 03:10 because it's part of the fact that we love. 03:12 And I know that you have a story 03:14 about your own story 03:15 of grieving of losing your wife recently. 03:18 And so I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, 03:21 just give us the background and launch into the story. 03:23 Sure. 03:24 Gayle and I were married as I told you before, 03:27 40 years, 3 months, 13 days, and 3 hours. 03:29 Wait, wait, 40 years. Okay. 03:32 Three months, thirteen days, and three hours. 03:35 And it's amazing how, you know, 03:36 you take the time to count that up 03:38 when it's been that significant of a relationship. 03:40 She was, by far, my very best friend, 03:43 and the person with whom 03:45 I was most intimate emotionally, 03:46 spiritually every other way. 03:47 We shared ministry together, we traveled together, 03:50 we did everything together. 03:52 We had preached together, we wrote books together. 03:55 You name it, we've done television together, 03:57 all of it together, 03:59 95% of our time was spent together. 04:01 And so when she got sick which happened rather suddenly 04:05 because she was 60 years old 04:07 and still playing volleyball every week 04:09 diving across gym floors to dig a ball, 04:11 you know, I mean, she... 04:13 Incredible health. 04:14 And then boom, we had the first symptom, 04:17 which was actually symptoms of a stroke. 04:20 And what happened is she had pancreatic cancer 04:24 that was stage four, it already spread to the liver, 04:26 which created a symptom, 04:28 a condition they call sticky blood. 04:30 It created a clot in her thigh, 04:32 and every time one of those clots broke through, 04:33 it gave her a stroke, 04:35 which was the first inkling that we had 04:37 that anything was wrong with her at all. 04:39 Was it a real stroke or just looked like a stroke? 04:41 It was a real stroke 04:43 because the blood clot went to her brain. 04:46 And so she lost use of the right hand 04:49 for a time because of that. 04:50 Eventually, one stroke took away her sight, 04:53 she lost the ability to tell the difference by feel 04:56 between a wool sweater and a silk blouse, 04:58 so she just couldn't tell. 04:59 She knew she had something but couldn't tell. 05:02 And so the first symptom came on March 3, 05:05 we were in Vancouver, British Columbia 05:07 doing a "Mad About Marriage." 05:08 She made a presentation even that way in high hills 05:11 for 3.5 hours in the afternoon 4 hours. 05:14 No one could tell anything was wrong. 05:17 The next day on March 6, I got her back to Dallas. 05:21 And when we landed, I said, 05:22 "Which hospital do you want to go to 05:24 'cause you're not going home?" 05:25 And she told me, we went in, they took her directly into ER. 05:29 First, they diagnosed strokes, 05:30 and then 10 days later after a biopsy 05:33 and MRIs and CAT scans and hospitalizations, 05:36 they diagnosed a stage four pancreatic cancer 05:39 that had already spread to the liver. 05:41 And that was March 16, she died April 10. 05:44 Wow! 05:45 And so basically they told me to take her home 05:47 because there was nothing they could do. 05:49 And, you know, I've worked in the hospital settings 05:51 as a chaplain, and I knew that. 05:53 When you say pancreatic cancer, unless the Lord intervenes, 05:56 death is going to ensue. 05:58 And so I took her home. 06:00 And my job then was not only to work with family 06:03 in order to manage meds and symptoms 06:06 and keep her comfortable. 06:07 And by the way, she did never have to use 06:09 anything stronger than Advil or Tylenol 06:11 till she went into a final coma 06:13 like two days before her death, which was a blessing. 06:16 Really? It was a very real blessing. 06:17 But my job then was also 06:20 to manage the countless number of people 06:23 who wanted to come visit her. 06:25 Family, friends, long-term acquaintances, 06:28 and so did that... 06:29 I had the opportunity also to talk to her 06:32 about her impending death, 06:33 and she had no fear, none whatsoever. 06:35 I asked her if she was angry, 06:37 which is a typical thing that people go through. 06:39 She said, "Why would I be angry? 06:41 I've had 60 years of immaculate health 06:43 and some people never get a day. 06:45 I've had 40 years of a marvelous marriage 06:47 and wonderful ministry 06:48 and some people never know that." 06:49 She talked about her children, her grandchildren, 06:51 her extended family friends. 06:53 She said, "Should I be angry with God 06:54 because all of that lasted only 60 years and not 80?" 06:57 She said, "That seems to be ungrateful, 06:59 and I won't be ungrateful." 07:01 And that was her attitude. 07:02 It didn't surprise me that that was her attitude. 07:05 And that's how she died with that kind of comfort 07:07 and that kind of confidence in her Lord. 07:09 Mike, I'm just thinking how she ministered to you 07:11 at the very time. 07:13 Yeah. Yes, she did. 07:14 That she would try to minister to her. 07:16 Yeah, she did. 07:17 And I forgot to introduce my counselors here. 07:18 So let me do that just briefly this is Rob Davidson, 07:20 about to be a licensed counselor 07:22 from Maryland, true? 07:23 Yes. So glad you're here. 07:25 Nicole Parker, Biblical Counselor 07:27 and University Professor from Tennessee, 07:31 Southern Adventist University, 07:33 Paul Coneff, marriage and family therapist 07:36 from somewhere in Texas, I don't remember where. 07:40 Keene. 07:41 Keene, Texas. Keene, Texas. 07:42 We're neighbors almost. Oh, yeah, I guess. 07:44 So sorry, I didn't mean to break your flow here, 07:46 but I forget these important people. 07:48 You got to get that in there. 07:49 These are important people. Yeah. 07:50 But, no, you're right, she did minister to me. 07:53 It didn't surprise me though that her attitude 07:55 was what I just shared with you, 07:57 what surprised me is that 07:58 that had been my attitude because... 08:00 You were angry? 08:02 No, my attitude was the same as Gayle's 08:05 that it was no anger, there was gratitude. 08:08 And that's surprising 08:10 because anger was my go-to emotion 08:12 for most of my life. 08:16 In order to survive basically 08:18 because of my growing up situation, 08:20 anger became a part of my life experience, 08:23 and it was the thing that always saved me 08:25 until it got too heavy to carry and eventually... 08:27 Can you unpack that a little maybe? 08:29 Yeah. 08:30 When you live in a home of anger, 08:33 you respond with anger. 08:34 I see. 08:36 And you can either be super compliant, which says, 08:38 I'm wrong, I'm wrong, or you can be super anger, 08:40 which says, you're wrong and I deserve better. 08:43 And actually the anger 08:44 was a healthier response for me I think 08:47 because it said, I deserve better. 08:48 So you were defiant. 08:49 I was defiant. 08:51 Hard to believe. Yeah. 08:52 Well, you know, I have my moments hang around. 08:55 Okay. All right. 08:57 But, you know, 08:58 I've gone through another experience 09:00 of loss of a different nature earlier 09:02 and had to experience 09:03 a great deal of depression over that. 09:04 Really? 09:06 And I was probably depressed for about 13 years 09:09 until the irritant itself, 09:11 and it's too longer story to tell. 09:12 It was finally removed, it wasn't anything I had done, 09:15 it was a circumstance of a life that was unfair. 09:18 It had oppressed me and depressed me, 09:20 even though I was ministering and doing everything else 09:22 and functioning, I knew I was depressed. 09:24 But we're going to be really curious about that 09:25 because... 09:26 Yeah, of course, you are, of course you are. 09:28 It was some kind of nutshell version, 09:29 you know, we're counselors here, 09:30 we want to know the details. 09:32 Yeah. 09:33 We want to know more. 09:34 This is a financial loss that almost robbed me 09:36 that almost robbed me of my ministry. 09:37 And it was not something that I had done. 09:39 It was, again, 09:40 the circumstances are too long to tell here. 09:41 Yeah, convoluted story. 09:43 It was a convoluted story of something I had not done, 09:46 it didn't matter, I was culpable apparently, 09:49 and I've had a huge financial loss, 09:52 thought I was going to 09:53 not be able to minister ever again, 09:55 and I responded with anger. 09:57 And after this was finally removed, 09:59 my ministry was restored. 10:01 I did some soul searching and figured out 10:04 that the reason for my anger 10:06 was that I thought God had owed me better. 10:08 Entitlement. 10:09 Yeah. 10:11 And when I realize that I'd preached 10:12 against the fact that God owes us more... 10:13 Yeah, entitlement. 10:15 And yet I felt it, 10:16 I confess that it's a sin 10:18 and I ask God to make my preach theology congruent 10:20 with my lived theology. 10:21 Amen. Love it. 10:23 And when Gayle was announced as being terminal, 10:28 I had to thank God because He had done 10:29 what I asked Him to do. 10:31 I did not think that God owed me 10:33 more than what He had given, 10:35 I was grateful for what He had given me, 10:37 and anger has not been 10:38 a part of my grief experience at all 10:39 because of that I think. 10:41 Yeah. 10:42 I recognized, I've been blessed beyond measure, 10:45 blessed beyond measure. 10:46 So that foundational entitlement 10:48 just really sets you up 10:49 for a lot of ramifications of it. 10:50 Absolutely. 10:52 You know, feeling cheated, feel resentful, feeling anger 10:55 but if you can sort of 10:56 knock that foundational thing out, 10:59 then a lot of things fall into place. 11:00 Yeah. That's right. 11:02 Yeah. That's right. 11:03 And so we faced her death with a shared attitude. 11:07 Prior to her death, you know, I just told her, 11:10 "You know, what I've done as a chaplain is 11:11 I ask people to do life review 11:13 because it puts their life in perspective, 11:15 do you need that?" 11:16 She said, "No." 11:18 I said, "You're probably right." 11:20 I said, "All right, so what we're going to do?" 11:22 So she said, 11:24 "What I need to do is write letters 11:25 to each of our children and grandchildren." 11:28 So she couldn't do that, so I took dictation, 11:30 we finished those. 11:31 Can you tell us little about your family, 11:33 you know, how many kids? 11:34 I have two daughters, adult daughters, 11:35 one of whom is married. 11:37 So I have a son-in-law, two grandchildren. 11:39 And one of them is a counselor, right? 11:41 Yes, my younger daughter is a counselor. 11:43 It's in the blood. 11:44 It's in the blood. It's in the water. 11:46 The other daughter has started off as a teacher 11:48 and is now a preacher. 11:49 So, you know, again, it's in the blood 11:51 because Gayle and I both started off as teachers 11:53 and turned into preachers just like my older daughter. 11:57 Wow! 11:58 So she wrote these letters of goodbye to them 12:00 that I was supposed to send to them 12:01 six weeks after her death. 12:02 Yeah. 12:04 And then she said, "I need to write one to you." 12:05 And so that's going to be awkward 12:06 because I'm taking the dictation. 12:09 I said, "Besides, what are you going to say to me, 12:10 you haven't said every day for the last 40 years?" 12:13 She said, "Well, you may be right." 12:14 I said, "But out of curiosity, what would you say to me? 12:16 What would you say to me?" 12:18 If you did write this letter. 12:19 I said, "If you were going to write this letter 12:20 what you're going to say? 12:22 If you write the letter. 12:23 She said, "I would say, first of all, no regrets." 12:26 That's speaking of our marriage. 12:28 She knew that I would beat myself up 12:29 over my perceived mistakes in the marriage. 12:32 She said, "No regrets, no regrets." 12:35 And second thing she said was... 12:36 Did that means something to you? 12:38 Yes, it did. It did. Yeah. 12:39 Did it surprise you at all or... 12:40 No. No? 12:42 Because that's her and that was one of our mantras, 12:43 so to speak, our mottos for our marriage. 12:46 And maybe you were just awesome and didn't know it, you know? 12:48 Well, I know that I had to grow 12:50 into being a good marriage partner 12:52 because, you know, if you don't see it at home, 12:54 you have to figure out what that means. 12:57 But the good news is you can. 13:00 Yeah, you can grow, you can change. 13:01 I mean, it helps when you're formatted to love and beloved. 13:03 Yeah. 13:05 But if you didn't get that growing up, 13:06 but I think you did have a close relationship 13:07 with your mother. 13:09 My mother and I were very close. 13:10 Very close. Very close. 13:12 And she was just a sweetheart to me. 13:13 Yeah. And I learned a lot from her. 13:14 Yeah. 13:16 But the second thing she said was, "Live our life." 13:18 And to me that meant faith, family, and ministry, 13:21 those are the three things 13:23 because that had been the cornerstone of our life. 13:25 Our faith in Christ, our family... 13:28 So she was, kind of, commissioning you going forward 13:30 this is what I want you to do. 13:31 Yeah. 13:33 She said, "That's what I would say is live our life, 13:34 don't try to make big changes, this is who we are." 13:37 I mean, she realized that 13:38 context of ministry will change, 13:40 those kinds of things, details will change, 13:43 but ministry is a part of it faith, family, 13:45 and ministry were the things she told me. 13:47 Mike, you're speaking to 13:48 so many married couples right now 13:50 who need to hear this, 13:51 as well as people who might be grieving. 13:53 But this is beautiful. 13:55 Yeah. Yeah. 13:56 That was she saying, "Keep living." 13:58 Yeah, exactly. 13:59 And we had talked at earlier stages about 14:03 if one of us died with the other remarry. 14:06 And I said, "I don't know." 14:07 She said, "Yeah, you will." 14:08 I said, "Well, I don't know." 14:10 She said, "No, you remarry." 14:11 "Why?" She said, "You need a wife." 14:15 Guy like you can't even match your socks. 14:17 She knew that I needed that. 14:19 I didn't realize that. 14:21 After she died, at first, 14:22 I didn't think I would ever remarry 14:24 because what I have to... 14:25 What did she mean now? 14:26 What kind of need, like, just to function 14:28 or make your dinner or was it more? 14:29 No, it's deeper than that. 14:30 Although, obviously, I don't cook, 14:32 so I need someone to make dinner. 14:34 But, you know, I have enough income, 14:35 I can go to restaurants, and I can, 14:36 you know, things like that. 14:38 But that's not what she meant. 14:41 I think that men in particular find it difficult 14:44 to have intimate relationships, even guy friends, 14:48 there's not a level of intimacy 14:49 there with most of your guy friends, 14:51 you like each other, you care for each other, 14:53 but there's not a level of intimacy. 14:55 There's only one person on the planet 14:57 that I had that kind of intimate relationship with 14:59 and that was her, 15:00 and she knew that I couldn't live 15:02 without that kind of relationship. 15:03 I would need to find someone with whom I could have 15:07 an intimate relationship 15:08 otherwise I'm alone in the world. 15:10 I didn't realize that fully until about seven months in. 15:13 So women are more naturally capable 15:16 of forming relationships outside of marriage. 15:18 Yes. 15:19 But men, kind of, need that anchoring relationship 15:21 to keep their relational. 15:23 Gayle had deep relationships with her siblings, especially, 15:26 her sisters, deep relationships with girlfriends. 15:30 Yeah. 15:31 I mean, they could share almost anything. 15:33 I didn't have that with anyone, but Gayle. 15:36 That's the only person on the planet 15:37 that I had that with. 15:38 Really? Oh, yeah. 15:40 That was very wise of her. 15:41 Yeah, yeah. 15:43 You know, as a minister, first of all, 15:44 it makes you kind of fearful of being too vulnerable, 15:46 too open to people. 15:48 And so you have to learn vulnerability 15:50 and that takes some confidence. 15:51 You mean being a pastor makes it difficult to be open. 15:53 Yes. 15:55 Because you feel like people use stuff against you. 15:56 They will use it against you. 15:58 And you have to be willing to put up with that 16:00 if you're going to be open and vulnerable. 16:01 Or you think they'll use it against you, 16:02 it's not always that they will. 16:04 Not always. But they might. 16:05 Most people won't but some will. 16:07 It's true. 16:08 And when I stand up and I share intimate details of my life 16:10 before people now in the pulpit or on camera, I get emails. 16:13 Yeah. 16:15 Some of which are supporting and others of which are not. 16:16 Not so much. Not so much. 16:18 So vulnerability, 16:20 there's a price to be paid for it, 16:21 and most men know that. 16:23 The most intense negative emotion 16:26 that men typically experience is shame, 16:29 and to open your life up and to receive criticism, 16:33 multiplies the shame in. 16:34 I'm just wondering if these two gentlemen 16:37 have the same experience where it's tough for you 16:39 to get really close to someone other than your wife. 16:42 Is it easier for you to access that? 16:45 Is that pretty true? 16:46 I'm totally relating to what you said, Mike. 16:48 Yeah, it's not natural. 16:49 And also, I agree with Mike that 16:51 some people will be supportive 16:53 but there's always some people 16:54 they may wait six months or year 16:56 but something goes wrong, 16:57 and then they're going to turn around and say, 16:58 "You're doing this because of what you shared." 17:00 Yeah. 17:01 And so because you guys typically 17:03 occupy these positions 17:04 where you are spearheading something 17:06 or the head of something, 17:07 you're especially vulnerable to people 17:09 that will use your vulnerability against you. 17:11 Absolutely, absolutely. 17:13 What do you think about, like this is kind of off topic 17:15 but what do you think about the whole bromance phenomena 17:17 where guys like make these almost romantic, 17:20 they're not homosexual, 17:22 it's this phenomena where men are like 17:24 they make these overtures 17:26 of a friendship nature to each other. 17:28 It almost seems like pseudo-intimacy though 17:30 because it's very public, and I, kind of, 17:33 wonder if they carry that intimacy 17:35 into private relationships, you know, what not. 17:37 Are they really talking about heart to heart struggles? 17:40 Yeah. Yeah. 17:41 And like Mike mentioned shame, anger, 17:43 are we really talking about those kind of things 17:45 and how they impact our life. 17:46 I doubt, and I do think God made us 17:48 in His image male and female 17:50 and that we make unique contributions, 17:52 And I think women too are more wired relationally 17:55 and tend to civilize man in certain respects. 17:58 Yeah. Yeah. 17:59 So and again, I identify with what you're saying, 18:01 and I do think that the bromance 18:03 is more of a false intimacy not... 18:05 Men don't understand what intimacy means 18:08 until a woman shows them. 18:09 Yeah, yeah, in generally speaking. 18:11 In general terms and obviously that's a broad stroke. 18:13 Yeah, sure. 18:15 But that was true for me as well. 18:16 And I thought I was pretty open, 18:18 pretty intimate kind of guy 18:19 until I discovered true intimacy. 18:21 So was it Gayle that it was her she was the secret sauce 18:25 or was it just what you went through together 18:27 that enabled you to get to that level of intimacy. 18:29 I think it's a combination of all things. 18:30 I think women have a greater intuitive sense 18:34 of what intimacy should look like 18:37 and constantly working to build that. 18:39 Yeah. 18:40 And then our shared life experiences 18:42 of course adds to this... 18:43 Yeah. 18:44 And on and on it goes through all that together. 18:46 No one knew me like she did. Yeah. 18:49 She saw me in my most vulnerable 18:50 in my worst times, and she saw me in my best times 18:53 and chose to focus on the best. 18:54 Yeah. 18:55 You know, there was a level of intimacy and trust there 18:58 that I had never known before that was rich for me. 19:01 And finally, as I began to grieve about... 19:04 As a I mentioned about seven months in, 19:06 it dawned on me there was an event 19:07 that took place which... 19:09 When you say seven months in, you mean, into her... 19:10 Into my grief. Okay. 19:12 Because she wasn't six, seven months, you know. 19:14 She wasn't around for seven months. 19:15 No, so about seven months after her death 19:17 is when it began to dawn on me, 19:19 "I don't want to live this way." 19:21 And it wasn't suicidal it's just how 19:23 is the rest of my life going to look 19:25 'cause I've never even had suicidal ideations, 19:29 it's not a part of my DNA apparently 19:31 at least not to this point in my life. 19:34 But it was, "How am I going to live the rest of my life? 19:37 Do I want to live it like this?" 19:39 And the answer was no. Of being alone. 19:41 Yeah, being alone. 19:42 So can we save the second chapter 19:44 for the second segment 19:45 'cause I want to unpack that during the second segment? 19:47 Sure. 19:48 But I want to look more 19:50 at the intimacy building process 19:51 of your marriage. 19:53 How you got there 19:54 because there are so many married couples 19:56 that don't get there. 19:58 Can you give us a little bit about your Mad About Marriage? 20:01 Yeah, I think... I think you guys chime in. 20:02 I think that for me to find intimacy, 20:05 the first thing was to recover from any negative 20:07 from the past that means to acknowledge 20:09 what was negative in my past 20:11 and how that it impacted my life 20:12 and what I needed to do with it. 20:14 So I began dealing with my anger issues 20:16 early on in my marriage as I realized that that anger 20:19 though it may have served me well in certain circumstances 20:22 was too heavy to carry, and it would hurt my wife. 20:25 And I didn't want to be a source of pain for her. 20:26 Did you ever see her get hurt by your anger? 20:28 Oh, yeah. 20:30 And it would be through a quick word, an angry word. 20:33 Just like short temper. 20:34 Yeah, short temper, angry word or an attitude. 20:37 And when I saw the pain that caused her, 20:38 I realized I didn't want to do that to her. 20:41 I didn't want to be the source of pain for her. 20:42 I wanted to be the source of joy for her. 20:44 Because some people just get mad back 20:46 and that obfuscates the problem, you know, 20:48 compounds the problem. 20:49 Yeah. And that wasn't Gayle. 20:50 Gayle didn't do that. 20:52 Did she grew up in a home 20:53 where they just didn't handle... 20:54 She grew up in Father Knows Best, 20:56 does God. 20:58 You know, it was Christian Neighbors, Father Knows Best, 21:00 the old 50 sitcom. 21:02 It was an idyllic Americana, that's where she grew up. 21:04 Really? 21:05 Was Fat her Knows Best like he was an autocrat 21:07 or was it more like he was just kind of... 21:08 Oh, he was a loving Godly man. 21:10 Oh, yeah. Okay. 21:11 Grace filled, who loved his children, 21:12 they adored him. 21:14 Oh, wow. 21:15 And his wife adored him, 21:17 they had a wonderful relationship, 21:18 they raised their children to know Jesus. 21:19 That's amazing. 21:21 And it was an amazing home. 21:23 So she had certain tools that you didn't have. 21:25 Yeah, exactly. 21:27 She had seen a good relationship 21:29 up close and personal. 21:30 And she understood intimacy intuitively as a woman 21:33 and then experientially 21:35 from the standpoint of her home. 21:37 So she knew, kind of, where we needed to go. 21:39 I didn't know. 21:41 And as I began to humble myself 21:43 and realize I can learn from her 21:46 and dealt with my own stuff, 21:48 then as we experienced life together. 21:51 There are certain mottos that we established between us 21:55 in order to make this happen. 21:58 The first motto was my spouse 21:59 would never intentionally hurt me because... 22:02 I remember that. 22:03 Yeah, that's an important motto for me 22:05 because I looked up looking over my shoulder, 22:08 wondering where the next target was coming from. 22:09 Yeah. 22:11 And when I realized that she would never intentionally 22:13 be the source of that pain 22:14 that I could trust her with that, 22:17 then that meant if the God goes down. 22:19 So that was the first one. 22:20 And then we had a second one we called good will marriage. 22:23 And that is that I promised to what the best for her 22:26 and for our relationship and to believe 22:28 that she always wanted the best for me in our relationship. 22:31 You put the best construction on each other. 22:32 Exactly. 22:33 So if you had an off day, 22:35 you weren't monsterfied for that half day. 22:36 That's right. That's right. Yeah. 22:38 Everybody has an off day or an off moment, 22:40 but I realize that she would never intentionally hurt me. 22:43 And so if I feel pain, then I would simply say, 22:45 "I know you wouldn't hurt me on purpose, 22:47 but this felt this way to me. 22:48 Can you explain to me what's going on?" 22:50 So you have like a positive default 22:52 that you would go back to 22:53 if things didn't go quite right. 22:55 Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's powerful. 22:56 So that helped heal me and build trust in me, 23:00 and then as we experience life's ups and downs, 23:02 successes and failures, that grew the intimacy. 23:06 And I also saw that even through the bad times, 23:09 she held onto that motto for us, that mantra, 23:12 "I would never intentionally hurt you." 23:14 She was faithful with it in every turn. 23:15 It's beautiful. 23:16 Don't you find that like in marriages 23:18 there are narratives 23:20 and that people have these baseline narratives like 23:24 this is a disappointment 23:25 or this person has never been faithful to me 23:28 or there's no hope for this relationship 23:30 or this is a constant assault on my dignity or whatever. 23:34 And what we're seeing here, at least, 23:36 what I'm seeing is a positive narrative. 23:38 It's a positive redemptive narrative. 23:41 It doesn't mean that you don't have sin, 23:42 it doesn't mean that you don't have struggles... 23:44 No. 23:45 But it means that you have this basic positive narrative, 23:46 and it's just instructive to me because I can think of times 23:48 in my marriage where we haven't had a positive narrative 23:51 'cause I didn't know how to do that. 23:52 Yeah. 23:53 I had never seen that done before and nobody was like 23:55 teaching the kind of seminars that you teach 23:57 at least in the days that we struggled. 23:59 And sometimes, you know, 24:00 there are people watching this I know that can't honestly 24:03 say that they believe their spouse 24:05 will never intentionally hurt them. 24:06 That's true. 24:08 You have to both make that true. 24:09 Solid evidence to the contrary, 24:10 but for those who can honestly say that 24:13 it's a beautiful gift to bring to marriage 24:15 and when you can't have that honest confidence 24:19 what can you do in a marriage, like, 24:21 what do you recommend to people, 24:23 you're doing these seminars all the time, 24:24 what do you find when people can't honestly say that? 24:27 I think you have to come to a point in your life 24:29 where you decide that your partner's dysfunction 24:33 is not going to produce dysfunction in you 24:35 that you choose to do the right thing all the time 24:38 whether it has a positive benefit or not 24:40 because you can never afford the luxury of believing a lie 24:44 or engaging in an unhealthy act. 24:46 Yeah. You just can't. 24:47 The power of sin is that 24:50 when one person sins against the other person, 24:52 it tempts the other person to sin and respond. 24:54 And so we set these cycles of sin going in our families, 24:57 first in our marriages, 24:58 and then pass it on to our children, 25:00 and the way we stop that 25:01 is by committing ourselves to righteous. 25:02 That's right. 25:04 Loving well no matter whether the other person 25:05 loves us well. 25:07 You go it. I call that going vertical. 25:08 You know, you don't have to react 25:10 to something perpetrated on you, 25:12 you can go vertical and stop that cycle. 25:14 And that doesn't mean you have to stay 25:15 in an abusive relationship. 25:17 No, it does not, it does not. 25:18 Sometimes, loving them well means the opposite, 25:19 you say that's enough. 25:21 There is a difference between abuse and dysfunction. 25:22 Yeah. Right. 25:23 And so, you know, the fact that 25:25 you stay in a dysfunctional marriage 25:26 maybe God honoring. 25:28 Right. Exactly. 25:29 The fact that you stay in an abusive marriage 25:30 honors no one. 25:32 It might be a really bad idea. Right. 25:33 That's right 'cause your kids get mad at you for it. 25:35 Exactly. Exactly. You could get hurt. 25:37 You know, there's a whole list of reasons. 25:39 Yeah. That's really powerful. 25:40 Do you think that we're somewhat, 25:42 and I hate to get into the range 25:43 where people accuse me of blaming the victim 25:45 but do you think that we're somewhat responsible 25:48 for bringing out the best in other people 25:50 'cause what I see in marriage is often people would be like, 25:53 "This person is so terrible to me, 25:55 they're so terrible to me." 25:56 And they have no sense of responsibility, 25:58 maybe if you put them on their best behavior, 26:01 and you gave them a 10, 26:02 maybe they would reach maybe an 8, 26:04 but there seems to be no sense of responsibility. 26:05 So a lot of times what I do 26:07 is try to get people back to that 26:08 internal locus of control where they're like, 26:10 well, maybe they're having their own sin issues, 26:13 but I'm going to make sure 26:14 to try to bring the best out of them. 26:16 I heard a story about a woman 26:18 who wanted to divorce her husband. 26:20 And the pastor said, 26:23 "You know, well, you can do that 26:25 but why do you want to do this?" 26:26 She said, "I want to hurt him." 26:28 He said, "Here's a better way to do that. 26:30 For the next six months 26:31 be the wife he's always dreamed of. 26:33 Absolutely, always dreamed of 26:35 and then when he falls absolutely in love with you 26:37 that's when you divorce him and hurt him." 26:39 It's a best way to hurt him. 26:40 She said, okay. Oh, good. 26:41 So six months she was ideal like, I mean, the perfect wife. 26:44 And at the end of six months he said, 26:45 "Now are you going to divorce him?" 26:46 She said, "Absolutely not. I love him." 26:48 We're having the greatest time of our lives. 26:49 That's right. That's right. 26:51 Because her changed behavior changed his behavior. 26:53 And so, yes, we have a responsibility. 26:54 There's a line though, I think, again, 26:58 it comes to the difference between 27:00 a dysfunctional marriage and an abusive marriage... 27:02 That's right. 27:04 Because in an abusive marriage, 27:05 your changed behavior affects nothing, nothing 27:08 but a dysfunctional marriage, it can change someone. 27:11 You know, I really wish we had more time to unpack 27:13 this whole thing of abuse and what distinguishes 27:16 between an abusive and a dysfunctional marriage 27:18 and maybe we'll open that up during the second segment. 27:21 We never know where these things are going to go. 27:22 Who knows. 27:24 But exactly this is a free for all though. 27:26 We're so excited to hear the story, 27:27 and it's really, it's comforting to me 27:29 to see grief handled with dignity 27:32 but even more than that the beauty of relationship 27:35 that was really forged, built on love, 27:38 and you developed intimacy, 27:40 and you didn't have the background that she had, 27:42 but you were able to learn things. 27:44 And that's so encouraging. 27:45 And I know there's people out there that are wondering 27:47 what's going to turn the tables in their relationship. 27:51 There's hope while there's life, there's hope. 27:53 Keep watching, keep learning, 27:55 keep listening, and things just may change. |
Revised 2018-12-30