Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170034A
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00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're so thankful that you joined us today 00:30 for our program. 00:32 This is the second half of our program 00:34 with Mike Tucker. 00:36 It's called "My Grief Observed." 00:38 And what we're covering in this program 00:40 is obviously grief. 00:42 But also there's a second chapter 00:44 to Michael's story of losing his wife of 40 years. 00:48 And he knows more about the exact amount of time. 00:52 Just not too long ago because Mike has remarried, 00:54 and we're going to be covering that 00:55 in this second half. 00:57 But I want to introduce my illustrious panel here. 00:59 We've got Rob Davidson from Maryland. 01:02 He's a professional counselor. 01:03 We've got Nicole Parker, 01:05 a biblical counselor from Tennessee. 01:08 Paul Coneff, your name escaped me for a moment, 01:10 marriage and family therapist from Texas, 01:13 and author and speaker as well, as is Nicole Parker. 01:17 And Mike Tucker, who is the director 01:20 and principal speaker of Faith for Today, 01:23 and the flagship program of Faith for Today 01:26 is Christian Lifestyle Magazine. 01:28 Actually Lifestyle Magazine. 01:29 It started off about 35 years ago 01:30 as Christian Lifestyle Magazine, 01:32 and then they shorten the name 01:33 just Lifestyle Magazine, 01:35 'cause it's targeting non Christians. 01:36 You're also an author, 01:37 and I just want to kind of draw attention 01:39 to this lovely book that you've just written 01:41 called "Tears to Joy, One Man's Journey through Grief" 01:44 by Mike Tucker, Pacific Press. 01:47 And so tell us, unfold to us a little bit more 01:51 what was going on 01:52 as you went through this grieving process. 01:54 And the beautiful thing about your story is that 01:56 there was such a strong relationship there 01:57 to begin with so. 01:59 As I said in the first half, the deeper the love, 02:02 the more intense the grief, how did you get through it? 02:04 We grieve greatly because we have loved greatly. 02:07 It is the price we pay for having experienced love. 02:10 And it was the most terrifying 02:13 and horrific moments of my life, 02:16 and experience of my life is moving through that 02:19 because she had been my intimate partner. 02:22 And by intimacy, we're talking about shared emotions, 02:25 it's shared life, shared ministry, 02:27 shared experience over 40 years with this woman, 02:31 and we had a delightful marriage. 02:33 And so, to suddenly be alone 02:36 when you're used to going to churches as a couple 02:39 and you find yourself either go, traveling alone 02:42 and speaking alone or doing a seminar alone 02:46 or you find yourself attending church alone, 02:50 it is something wrong with it, family gatherings alone. 02:54 You know, I'd never done that. I'd never done that. 02:57 Did you ever have an experience 02:58 where you just wanted to share something and then... 03:01 Yeah, oh, yeah. 03:02 You think I'm going to call her. 03:04 Well, no, you can't call her, 03:06 I'm going to tell her when I get home, 03:08 and she won't be there. 03:09 Yeah. So yeah, all of that. 03:11 And you go through the typical stuff, 03:12 you know, with the sadness, the feelings of depression, 03:17 the listlessness, the loss of interest 03:19 in things you used to do, you don't want to do anymore, 03:22 the loss of energy, 03:24 the weeping at unexpected times, 03:25 and at expected times, and things of that nature. 03:28 All of those symptoms, 03:30 all of those things are part of it, 03:31 and I agree with your assessment 03:33 of Kubler-Ross, 03:34 even though I think some of her material is great. 03:36 The truth is, you can't just say 03:38 this is what you're going first and then second, 03:40 I never experienced anger, I never had denial. 03:44 And if there was any denial, it was certainly momentary 03:47 because I lived with the reality of her loss, 03:50 so I never denied it. 03:51 Didn't you have a thanks a lot God moment 03:54 that you're telling us about? 03:55 Can you tell us that story? 03:57 This is the moment when I realized 03:58 that I didn't want to live the rest of my life this way. 04:00 I was about six and a half, seven months into this 04:02 when I was doing evangelism for Frank Gonzalez, 04:05 who is a pastor in Florida, 04:06 used to be speaker for La Voz De Esperanza, 04:09 and I had agreed to do this several years beforehand. 04:11 And I thought I can use one of the series 04:13 that I've done on Hope channel 04:15 because I've done some evangelism there. 04:17 And, but, two months away, 04:18 he called me said, "Oh, good news, 04:19 Hope channel's going to broadcast us." 04:21 I said, "That's good news for you, but not me. 04:23 I don't have anything, I haven't done on Hope channel, 04:25 I did no material. 04:26 And the problem was that after Gayle's death, 04:28 for quite a while, I couldn't write. 04:30 I sit in front of a blank computer screen, 04:32 I could not write about anything but the loss. 04:35 I could write plenty about that but nothing else. 04:37 So I needed new material, and I couldn't write, 04:40 so I just studied and prayed. 04:42 And then when it came time for the shows, 04:43 I was supposed to shoot 04:45 two sermons a night for six nights, 04:47 so you have 12 new sermons, 04:49 and sometimes as close to shoot time is 20 minutes, 04:53 I would finally get an outline 04:55 formulated in my mind and I preached 12 new sermons 04:58 in six nights, and you have to do them to time 05:01 which is a very, very, very difficult thing to do, 05:04 especially preaching without notes. 05:07 And I missed my times 05:08 by no worse than two seconds per sermon. 05:10 Most of them were either right on 05:12 or one second off, one sermon was two seconds off. 05:16 No one does that. No one does that. 05:17 No one does that. So it was a major triumph. 05:19 This is a major triumph and is purely God moment 05:22 because God has done something for me 05:23 I'm not capable of doing on my own. 05:25 And I'm just so high after this experience, 05:28 I want to call and I realized 05:30 I had absolutely no one to call to share this with 05:34 who would truly appreciate that moment. 05:36 And then you went back to your hotel room? 05:38 Yeah. And? 05:40 And I turn on the TV just to kind of detox, 05:43 get over my sadness of having no one to call. 05:45 And it opened up the Hope channel, 05:47 and Lifestyle Magazine was being played, a rerun, 05:50 and Gayle was interviewing a cancer survivor. 05:53 Seriously, God, this is what you give me now? 05:55 I just sat down in my bed and cried. 05:57 But it was at that moment as I was processing all that 06:00 I realized, this, 06:02 if God is going to bless me like this. 06:04 I can't live this way. 06:06 I've got to have someone to share this experience with, 06:08 to share my joy as well as the sorrows of life, 06:11 it's not just about being lonely. 06:13 You can live with loneliness, but I couldn't. 06:15 I did not want to live without a shared experience, 06:19 a shared ministry, and shared joy. 06:20 Mike, you came to that experience. 06:22 Did you say this was seven months 06:23 after your wife had died? 06:25 Yeah. 06:26 So in the meantime, 06:27 what were you doing for these seven months? 06:29 Were you just staying so busy 06:30 that you didn't have time to grieve? 06:31 I became very intentional about my grief. 06:34 I made sure that I wrote about it, 06:35 I cried about it when I felt that was necessary. 06:37 I talked about it as often as I had opportunity. 06:40 Were there people you could talk to? 06:42 Yes, yes, there were. 06:43 And then I would talk about it publicly, 06:46 in my sermons at times. 06:47 People wanted to know, and I told the story. 06:49 Could you hold or did you fall apart emotionally? 06:52 My voice would crack, but God gave me strength, 06:54 and I got through it 06:55 because I've been so intentional. 06:57 The other thing that I did is 06:58 I tried to anticipate the moments 07:00 that would be hardest for me, 07:02 and I did what I call leaning into the pain. 07:06 I would do those things earlier than I needed to 07:08 such as preaching. 07:10 I started preaching two months after her death, 07:12 in fact within two months. 07:14 And that was tough. 07:15 I did a Mad About Marriage seminar 07:17 before I needed to 07:18 because my staff had canceled my schedule, 07:20 so I reengaged one, they were ready for me. 07:23 And I did a seminar about four months after her death. 07:26 Your first one alone. First one alone. 07:28 I did that intentionally 07:30 because I wanted to reclaim things. 07:31 I took two vacations to spots we used to go to together, 07:35 and I cried through the whole experience, 07:36 but when I did it, I knew those remind again. 07:39 If I wanted to go back, now I could do that. 07:41 So I was intentional about it. Good. 07:43 There are two things that are crucial 07:46 when I'm sitting with somebody who is grieving. 07:48 One is, don't ignore the pain. 07:50 And it sounds like you did not ignore. 07:51 No. 07:53 The other is don't stay in the pain all of the time. 07:55 Exactly. 07:56 But have the support around you and do life 08:00 as you need to do life, so that that's a distraction. 08:03 But come back to the pain when the pain comes back. 08:06 And this is just a process that we have to go through 08:08 for who knows how long 08:10 because grieving is not as you know, 08:12 it's not a set time. 08:13 No, you grieve, in some ways, the rest of your life. 08:16 You never quit grieving in some sense. 08:18 I do believe that I came to a point of enough recovery 08:21 that I was able to make decisions 08:23 and move on with my life. 08:24 But that's a tricky thing to know how to do that 08:27 and to know when that time is right. 08:29 How did you know? 08:31 I felt that I was able to make clear decisions 08:33 without asking advice. 08:35 I knew that my emotions were such that 08:37 I could talk about the loss 08:39 without tremendously breaking up at that point. 08:43 My memories were all pleasant, 08:45 and I had a desire to move forward. 08:48 I have a gift of life. 08:50 I don't want to live in just a memory. 08:51 I never want to forget. 08:53 But I wanted to be more than that. 08:54 And when I realized that, 08:56 that it was not about filling a void, 08:57 but sharing my life with someone, 08:59 and sharing my life in a positive way, 09:03 then, all right, I felt like now's a good time. 09:05 This is a positive thing. 09:07 You know, I was just curious, Mike, with... 09:10 Jesus was a man of grief and sorrows. 09:12 He knows a lot about loss, a lot about pain, 09:14 a lot about suffering. 09:16 And He went through that so He could identify with us, 09:18 so He could minister to us. 09:19 And I'm just wondering, how did Jesus minister to you 09:21 in a special, personal way? 09:23 Everybody's story is different, but I'm just curious 09:25 for those who are watching, and for your own story, 09:28 how did He ministered to you 09:29 in a personal way during this time? 09:31 You know, I think that the fact 09:32 that I had been living with Jesus 09:35 for a vast majority of my life, 09:38 meant that there was indeed 09:40 a relationship of intimacy there. 09:42 And it was just going back 09:43 and remembering those intimate times with Him, 09:45 and times that I shared with my wife with Him 09:47 that were precious to me. 09:49 And the realization of His benefits, 09:52 so as I celebrated what He has done to my life, 09:55 what He has given me, 09:56 it gave me comfort and hope for that moment. 09:59 And then every sorrow, 10:00 every tear, it was taken to Him. 10:02 I just didn't hold anything back. 10:04 Every cry, every, 10:06 and, of course, remembering scripture, 10:08 I wasn't able to read a whole lot at that point. 10:10 You know, if you read, 10:11 read positive light stuff is what I say. 10:14 So I avoided a lot of doctrinal study, 10:17 it was just Jesus at that point, 10:19 the gospels and psalms basically. 10:21 And even then in short bits. 10:23 And that helped me more than anything else, 10:25 just dwelling in the fact that He's always been here, 10:29 remembering that, remembering those times 10:31 that's special to us together, 10:32 sharing with Him my current sorrow, 10:34 and realizing that even when I couldn't feel it, 10:36 He was lifting me up. 10:38 And so it was a positive experience for me overall. 10:41 I think the brain like can't even engage 10:44 in real high order reasoning 10:46 when you're in an emotional state like that. 10:49 Loss of judgment, the ability to think logically, 10:51 one of the first symptoms of grief. 10:53 Really? Yeah. 10:54 And Jesus Himself went through that 10:56 'cause I think that's why when He was on the cross, 10:58 He said, "Why have You forsaken Me?" 11:00 He could have given a Bible study 11:02 on how God was with Him, 11:03 and it was the plan of salvation, 11:04 but He was just talking 11:06 out of His experience in that moment. 11:07 And I think it really literally derailed His cerebral cortex, 11:10 where He couldn't reach through. 11:12 Well, the loss experience for me did that. 11:15 I mean, you know, you realize... 11:17 I didn't make any major decisions 11:18 unless I asked someone. 11:20 So here's what I'm thinking, 11:21 here's what I'm thinking about doing. 11:23 What do you think? 11:24 Does this make sense, or should I just wait? 11:26 I need to do this with this money. 11:28 I've got... Should I pay this off? 11:29 What should I do? 11:31 Because, you know, you get insurance money, 11:32 and everything else. 11:34 And so you think, all right, 11:35 what's the best plan for this money? 11:36 So I talked to people about it. 11:38 People who were not grieving, whose opinion I trusted. 11:39 I've told people to do that for years. 11:41 So I took my own advice. 11:42 So you become kind of a puddle of emotion? 11:44 Oh, yeah. 11:46 And I just wondered just God go through that 11:47 on some level obviously, 11:49 He can never stop being the manager of the universe 11:51 and making all kinds of executive decisions. 11:53 But I wonder if He... 11:55 Yes, He's hurt with us. Yeah. 11:56 This is, you know, He's says, He weeps, 11:59 and I believe He does. 12:01 I wrote a book, 12:02 my first book was entitled "Journal of a Lonely God." 12:04 And I looked at the story of Genesis from the standpoint 12:07 of God longing for intimacy with man 12:09 as He worked with these dysfunctional people. 12:13 And I think it's kind of... 12:14 It can be viewed that way 12:15 as His journal, He was lonely, He longed for us. 12:17 There's a beautiful song that... 12:19 It's entitled 12:20 Tears Are Language That God Understand. 12:23 When my mother died, I would listen to that 12:24 over and over again to let the tears flow. 12:27 And there's something about the tears 12:30 that God has given us 12:31 because the chemicals in tears are actually toxic. 12:35 And when the tears flow, 12:37 where actually the body's going through a healing process, 12:40 the chemicals in joyful tears 12:42 are actually a different composition. 12:43 That's something. 12:45 And so if you hold in the sad tears, 12:46 it's going to toxify your body, is that what you're saying? 12:49 Yes. Wow. 12:50 Move towards the pain. 12:52 Which is one of the reasons why your body's immune system 12:53 functions less than optimum during grief. 12:56 You're more susceptible to flus, cold, 12:58 that sort of thing. 12:59 There's a lot of studies that show that. 13:00 And you need to be extra careful 13:02 and engage in extra self care during that period. 13:03 Exactly, exactly. You might get some rest. 13:06 I remember my husband and I dealt with 13:07 a very tragic situation early in our marriage, 13:10 where two of our friends got married 13:12 six months after we did, and a week after the wedding, 13:16 she was killed in a car accident. 13:18 It was very, very painful all the way around. 13:22 And we were some of the first people 13:24 to get to the hotel room 13:25 to meet with him after she had died. 13:28 And I remember him telling me a week later, 13:30 two weeks after their wedding, 13:31 we were having her funeral in the same church. 13:34 And I remember him telling me around then, he said, 13:36 "Nicole, I can't sing the hymns right now. 13:39 But listening to them, 13:41 the words mean so much to me." 13:42 And I think there's a special experience 13:44 of closeness with the heart of God 13:46 that comes through grieving 13:48 and allowing God to be there with us. 13:51 Some people are frightened because they feel like 13:53 there's a temporary loss of faith. 13:55 And that is one of the symptoms of grief. 13:57 That's a normal experience for a lot of people, 13:59 mainly because you've taken such a blow to the brain. 14:01 This is a brain injury as much as anything else. 14:05 But also one of the chief sources 14:07 of information about God, 14:08 about His love and concern for you 14:10 just died with this person. 14:11 So that voice has been silenced. 14:13 And all of a sudden, it feels like God is silenced. 14:16 And it takes a while for you to find a new voice 14:20 just to give you the same messages. 14:22 Because our close relationships are one of His books 14:25 really is the place we learn about Him. 14:26 Yes, exactly. 14:28 He ministered to me through ways 14:30 that I'll never fully be able to understand 14:32 through my marriage to Gayle. 14:34 And that was a blessing for me. 14:35 And I knew I didn't want to live without that. 14:37 So what happened? So what happened? 14:40 About seven, eight months in 14:42 when I realized that I didn't work? 14:43 I knew... Did you get any offers? 14:45 Oh, yes, I had marriage... 14:46 You know I did, I should have told you that. 14:50 I had marriage proposals from Twitter 14:52 from women I didn't know, and it goes on and on. 14:56 It was frightening to me, quite frankly. 14:58 But that's another story in itself. 15:00 Will have to have you back and explore that. 15:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want to do that. 15:05 But I knew I at least needed a friend, 15:09 someone to talk to 15:10 because I really didn't have that. 15:12 I've been on the road so much that any friendships that I had 15:15 were really kind of distance at this point. 15:17 And so I just needed someone to talk to. 15:19 Well, men are notoriously bad at that. 15:21 I'm sorry, but you guys are, I too. 15:24 Women are good at it, 15:25 but if she's married, that's awkward. 15:26 That's not right. Yeah, you can't do that. 15:28 So it needed to be a single woman, 15:29 but that still has its own dangers. 15:31 Yeah, exactly. 15:32 So I chose someone 15:33 who lived a long way away from me 15:35 in another country, 15:36 because I knew that would be safe. 15:37 Well, she was a Canadian, and it still is a Canadian. 15:40 And so I asked her if she would at least be willing 15:42 to be kind of an online presence for me. 15:44 She said she would 15:45 because she was traveling a lot as well, 15:47 and she felt alone. So we just started talking. 15:49 I didn't process my grief, 15:51 it was a renewing of a friendship 15:53 that I had made, Gayle and I had made 15:55 one year on a camp meeting tour. 15:58 And we had met her there, 15:59 she at the time was the director 16:01 for Quiet Our Canada, 16:03 and was indeed a preaching material 16:05 because she found she had to preach 16:06 and wasn't trained to be a preacher. 16:08 She liked my theology, I shared sermons with her. 16:10 So we had some discussions back and forth 16:11 about preaching and theology and that sort of thing. 16:14 And so we just started sharing our lives with each other, 16:16 just to talk about, you know, 16:18 and when something exciting happened for me, 16:20 I at least had someone to tell. 16:21 Someone to tell. Someone to tell. 16:22 Well, as the months passed, I realized that 16:25 this was more than just a friendship to me. 16:26 And it's all writing at this point. 16:29 All writing that we hadn't seen each other in years. 16:31 Really? Yeah. 16:33 Did you check Facebook for pictures? 16:34 Of course, of course, we both, 16:37 we've friended each other on Facebook. 16:39 And so in fact, most of our conversation 16:43 came through Facebook, the Messenger portion 16:46 because calling Canada is expensive, 16:48 you know, so that was a quick, easy way to do this, 16:52 and to have basically a chat with each other. 16:54 So we would go back and forth. 16:55 And one night, I realized that I talked to her 16:57 for more than two hours. 17:00 Wow. You know, what's going on here. 17:03 I was at a convention and was eating at a restaurant 17:08 about a mile away from my motel. 17:12 And I started walking back, I'd walk there again, 17:14 that's what I do, and I got a message from her 17:17 and I realized I wanted to answer, 17:20 and I had 2% left on my battery. 17:22 I ran all the way back crossing eight lanes of busy traffic 17:26 to get to my room to type, 17:28 and I realized what did I just do? 17:30 What happened to me? 17:32 And I realized that something was going on inside of me. 17:34 Oh, wow, almost got run over. 17:36 And so I had to take a break to figure out, 17:38 is this just a relief from grief, 17:39 or is this something of its own? 17:40 And I realized it was something of its own. 17:43 And so eventually, her name was Pam Lister. 17:48 Eventually when it was appropriate, 17:49 I said, "Would you ever be interested 17:51 in taking our friendship to the next level?" 17:53 She didn't answer me for 24 hours. 17:54 Okay, would you call that courting or dating? 17:57 Yes. 18:00 I don't know what it is. I don't have a term for it. 18:02 Just next level relationship. 18:03 Yeah, so she wrote back after 24 hours 18:07 because she had to think on this. 18:08 Went dark on you for 24... 18:09 What was that 24 hours like for you? 18:11 It was scared me to death. 18:12 I said, "Well, I've blown this," 18:14 you know, obviously I went out of this business way too long. 18:16 So she wrote back and said, 18:18 "Yeah, I'd be interested in that." 18:19 And then I realized that I didn't know what that meant. 18:21 So I wrote back is that, 18:22 "I don't know what that means today. 18:24 It's been over 40 years since I dated anyone 18:25 other than my wife. 18:27 So I want you to know that I'm not talking about 18:29 sending you my class jacket, 18:30 my class ring and going steady." 18:32 And she wrote back, "Lol, I understand it, all right, 18:35 we're talking about dating with an eye to marriage." 18:37 I said, "Great, All right so we have..." 18:38 Dating with an eye to marriage? 18:40 An eye to marriage. 18:41 She puts this in an interesting way. 18:43 Pam has a great sense of humor. 18:44 She says, when you're in your 20s, 18:45 you can date for 5, 6, 7 years 18:47 without declaring your intentions. 18:49 When you're in your 30s, two years, 18:50 you need to declare intention, 40, 6 months. 18:54 She says, I'm 50s, and 50s, it's a cup of coffee. 18:59 You know, I'd be that quick. 19:00 If you can't sit across the table 19:02 and realize you can't stand the sound of his breathing, 19:04 it's time to end this, 19:05 and to move on to something else. 19:08 And so, and again, that's sort of 19:09 humorous way of putting it.` 19:11 At our age, we both knew what we wanted. 19:14 This wasn't about tasting and saying, 19:16 "Well, you know, what's over here? 19:17 Who's this person like?" I know what I wanted. 19:19 You wanted a companion. Exactly. 19:21 Yeah. And she wanted the same thing. 19:23 And so when we began to talk about values, 19:25 and dreams, and hopes, and theology, 19:28 and faith, and aspirations, and family, and ministry, 19:31 we realized that there was a good intersection there. 19:33 That's great. 19:35 And so... Then you... 19:36 Okay, so you were just kind of chatting, 19:37 and then you started after you popped the question, 19:39 so to speak, then you started getting more intentional, 19:42 would this really work? 19:43 Yeah, about our conversations, online still. 19:45 Even at your age, 19:46 you were still hashing through the issues before. 19:48 You better, you better. Yeah, I'm glad. 19:51 There's no fool like an old fool. 19:53 I know that. 19:55 And I didn't want to be that guy. 19:56 Yeah, I hear you. 19:58 I've dealt with marriages and taught healthy marriages 20:01 for I don't know, decades. 20:03 How stupid would it be for me to marry poorly 20:05 at this point of my life, you know. 20:07 So at what point after your wife's death 20:09 were you starting to realize 20:11 that you were interested in another lady? 20:13 The most intense period of pain for me 20:15 lasted 9 to 10 months, which is typical. 20:18 And so it was sometime between the 10 month and the year mark 20:21 that I began to realize something was going on. 20:24 And I thought, this is frightening. 20:26 And so I wanted to make sure what it was. 20:29 And so I took a break. 20:31 And, but when we were engaged, 20:33 I realized for sure what this was, 20:35 and I didn't look back. 20:37 You took a break from your relationship with Pam? 20:39 I took a brief break, I said, 20:40 "We both need to filter through this 20:42 to make sure that this is the right thing." 20:44 I said, "Me in particular, you don't want to marry someone 20:47 if this moves that direction, 20:49 who is looking at you as a relief from grief." 20:53 Said, "That's not, you deserve better than that." 20:55 What was it like for your one year anniversary 20:57 of your wife's death? 20:58 Were you with Pam or were you not with Pam? 20:59 I was not with Pam, I was with family. 21:02 And that was by design. 21:04 I feel like that was important for them, for me, 21:07 for the whole thing. 21:09 And I asked that because 21:10 anniversaries are very important 21:11 when it comes to grieving, the loss of somebody. 21:14 And how we spend that anniversary is also... 21:15 Birthdays, anniversaries, anniversary of her death, 21:20 wedding anniversary, all of those things were key. 21:23 And all of those were spent with Pam. 21:24 And it's good to be able to spend it in a way 21:26 that is honoring the person that you're missing. 21:29 And I was very intentional about doing that. 21:31 I wanted to make sure that this... 21:33 Again, I was sharing with you 21:35 the research is that, men, in particular, 21:37 who have had a long term successful marriage, 21:39 when they lose their spouse, they tend to remarry 21:42 within 10 to 15 months, simply because you realize 21:45 that that is your only shot at intimacy. 21:48 When you've had intimacy, when you genuinely had that, 21:51 you realize you don't want to live without it. 21:52 And you realize it's not going to come in any other direction. 21:54 Well, and also that you realize it's doable, 21:56 I did it for all that time, you know. 21:58 And that intimacy like we talked about earlier 22:00 is sharing that life, having someone to turn to 22:02 and say, "Hey, here's this God moment." 22:04 You don't get married in order to take care of your pain. 22:07 That's a mistake. 22:09 You get married, not to fill something you don't have, 22:12 but to share something you have, 22:14 and to share of someone else's. 22:16 So if my life is good and full, 22:19 then I want to share that life with someone. 22:21 You know, that's interesting 'cause Paul says, 22:22 "If I have not love, you expresses love 22:24 as something you can actually possess." 22:26 Obviously, we can't generate that God gives it to us, 22:29 but we can have it, you know. 22:30 And that's a good thing to do is to have it 22:33 in order to share it instead of thinking 22:34 of someone else meeting your needs. 22:35 Of course, that's a great principle for any marriage 22:37 is to be able to be ready to give 22:39 and not just to what I can get out of it. 22:41 Get love... 22:42 In our culture, people often use the word intimacy 22:45 almost as a synonym for sexual expression. 22:48 But in a godly marriage, it's so much richer. 22:52 That's just one aspect, 22:54 kind of the fruit of the kind of intimacy 22:56 that people share in every aspect. 22:58 And by and large it's something that men have to learn. 23:00 Yeah. Right. 23:01 We don't come to that as naturally as women do. 23:03 Women get that, I think. 23:04 Yeah, I often think, "Man, I'm so glad I'm a woman 23:07 because I have this rich network of friendships 23:10 whereas I told my husband, 23:11 if I die, you better remarry," 23:13 because he needs that. 23:14 Yeah, I know, I have that network of people. 23:17 We call each other all the time when we're having a rough time. 23:20 We just know, and we know why the other person called. 23:22 It's not like, do you have some item of business 23:24 that you need to address. 23:25 It's like, yeah, I know you're having a bad day. 23:26 And frankly, it would be awkward for most men 23:28 to call a buddy. 23:29 I'm really having a bad day. 23:31 Butch up, dude, come on. 23:35 You know, it would just be awkward for most of the men. 23:36 But don't you think it would be good for men 23:38 to learn how to do that? 23:39 It would be good, but I don't know 23:40 that we're going to get past that frankly. 23:42 Or you'll be on the end of the growth curve 23:44 where we're way ahead, you bet. 23:46 I think it's a good thing to stretch in that direction. 23:47 It would be good, I just wasn't able to stretch that far. 23:50 Obviously, we need women to help us. 23:53 And what do the women need that we can help them with? 23:55 You can keep us alive during war time, 23:58 you know, make some money for food and stuff. 24:00 We have some... 24:02 The Bible does say it is not good 24:03 for the man to be alone, 24:04 it didn't say that about woman. 24:06 That's true because we're never alone. 24:07 And the research backs it up because men die younger. 24:09 We die younger. 24:10 It's more critical for men to be partnered than it is 24:13 or at least in relationship of some kind than women. 24:15 Bachelor's die sooner than married man 24:17 even though you may think she's killing you, 24:18 actually, she's toughening you, apparently. 24:20 Yeah, we're keeping you alive. Yeah, keeping you alive. 24:22 So I have a question like, can you discus 24:26 memories from your marriage with Pam? 24:28 Yes. How does that go? 24:30 And she wanted me to be able to do that. 24:33 Then she will bring that up, she'll ask, 24:35 "Where the two of you ever here? 24:38 What was that like?" 24:40 And so, you know, there's certain aspects of that 24:43 that she's curious about, 24:45 and wants me to be able to share? 24:46 Is it difficult? Does it feel weird? 24:48 It does, it does. 24:49 And, you know, therefore, I think that we both decided 24:52 to limit how much of that we do 24:54 simply because I want to make sure 24:56 that she knows that what I have with her... 24:59 You're in the present. Is his own thing. 25:01 You're creating memories with her. 25:03 Exactly. Yeah. 25:04 We're making a life together. 25:05 That's what made the other good. 25:08 It's what is going to make us good. 25:10 We share ministry, we share spirituality, 25:12 we share a life together. 25:14 And it's not about trying to replicate anything. 25:17 This is a new thing. 25:18 Pam's a very different personality than Gayle, 25:20 very different. 25:21 Isn't it wonderful that she actually is inviting you 25:24 to give her a part of who you were 25:27 because that's a part of who you still are today? 25:28 She's a godly woman. She recognizes this. 25:31 She's a wise woman. 25:32 And I'm honored that she would share her life with me 25:34 and be willing to do that. 25:36 That means she's got to have 25:38 a lot of self confidence too to be able to do. 25:41 This is not an easy thing. Gayle was a... 25:44 I figured that in many people's eyes 25:46 was bigger than I. 25:48 When we drive up to the church, 25:49 I used to pastor with Gayle for 17 years. 25:52 They'd build a new youth complex, 25:54 huge two story's structure, 25:55 Gayle's name is on the side of it. 25:56 They've named it after her. 25:58 Because she was just 25:59 so impacting in that congregation? 26:00 Exactly, exactly. Wow. 26:02 It was so impactful on the lives of children 26:05 and families and everyone else in the congregation. 26:08 That's how they honored her, by building this thing 26:10 and naming it after her. 26:12 Well, you know, to drive up and to visit a church 26:15 where my children still attend 26:17 to watch something my grandchildren are doing. 26:19 And she gets out of that car with me 26:21 and walks past that name. 26:23 That takes some self confidence to do that. 26:26 If she was sinful and selfish, 26:28 she'd feel she was standing in someone's shadow. 26:30 Yeah, but she doesn't believe that, 26:32 and I make sure that that I try not to do anything 26:35 that would make her think that. 26:37 Contribute to that. Yeah. 26:38 She's got her own things. 26:39 She is a unique, wonderful, talented... 26:42 She's a songwriter, isn't she? 26:43 She's a singer, not a writer. 26:45 But she's got two CDs out, and she's a gospel musician. 26:50 And she's got a unique story of her own, 26:53 quite capable woman, 26:54 and I'd tell she's been successful in business, 26:57 successful in ministry. 26:59 So I'm honored that she would share her life. 27:01 How do you deal with the Canadian thing? 27:03 You know that... 27:04 We have hired an attorney to make sure 27:06 that we do all the immigration process correctly. 27:09 She's living with you in the States? 27:10 Yeah, in Texas, yeah. 27:12 She went from Canada to Texas. 27:14 You pray for every summer, would you please? 27:17 Yes, my wife will identify with this. 27:19 Yes, yeah, you're right, yeah. 27:21 So, you know, that also speaks well of her, 27:23 the fact that she was able to leave her life there 27:27 to come and join me. 27:28 That's amazing. 27:30 That says a lot of love written all over that. 27:31 That's cool. It does, it does. 27:33 And I will never forget that sacrifice. 27:34 Didn't we read that about in that, 27:36 in the Bible with the roof? 27:37 Yeah. It's right. 27:39 "Your people will be my people, your God, my God." 27:40 Well, unfortunately, we have to wind up here. 27:42 But this has been very, very rich. 27:44 I know that it's ministered to many of you 27:46 that are maybe struggling with your own grief. 27:48 This has been a very happy ending here. 27:50 And God has a happy ending for you in the future. 27:53 Hang on. It gets better. 27:55 God is good. See you next time. |
Revised 2018-12-30