Multitude of Counselors

A Mother’S Tears Part 2

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript



Series Code: MOC

Program Code: MOC170036A

00:27 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:29 We're thankful again that you've joined us
00:31 for the second half of our program,
00:33 "A Mother's Tears"
00:35 featuring our precious guest, Pat Arrabito.
00:37 She's told us her story about how her husband
00:41 and two oldest children
00:42 died tragically in a plane crash
00:45 more than 20 years ago,
00:46 and she has carried on since then.
00:48 We've discussed grief,
00:50 we've discussed our concept of God
00:52 and how sometimes these devastating experiences
00:54 can bring us face to face
00:56 with our own faith or lack thereof.
00:59 We talked about her process of growth
01:02 through the tragedy.
01:03 And now we're going to talk about
01:04 how she continued to grow,
01:07 probably some more
01:08 philosophical discussions as well,
01:10 but we also want to know you carried on in Jim stead,
01:13 correct?
01:15 He had big ideas about creating films
01:18 and you carried on in his stead
01:20 and carried the ball forward so to speak.
01:22 I want to quickly introduce our panel today.
01:25 This is Rob Davison,
01:26 professional counselor from Maryland.
01:28 This is Nicole Parker, she's a biblical counselor
01:31 from Tennessee.
01:32 Dr. Jean Wright from my hometown,
01:35 Philadelphia,
01:36 and he's a clinical forensic psychologist.
01:40 Did I say it right this time?
01:41 Yes. I did.
01:42 And Pat Arrabito, author and...
01:46 Well, you may be not a book author
01:47 but you're a content creator, producer,
01:51 director of LLT productions.
01:54 My greatest title is mother. Mother.
01:57 And now you have two children, Andy and Adel.
02:00 And Adel has how many children?
02:03 Adel has three boys and number four on the way.
02:06 On the way,
02:07 and they're missionaries in a foreign country
02:09 that we can't talk about.
02:10 So, Pat, you're going to tell us
02:12 what happened from the point that you left us off forward.
02:16 You had a ministry to carry forward.
02:18 Well, Jim had been producing,
02:21 it was his dream to produce a documentary series
02:24 that would trace the history of Sabbath,
02:26 and show how the Sabbath was preserved
02:27 through the centuries.
02:29 You know, because we both grew up
02:30 in Sabbath-keeping families
02:32 but we kind of thought we started,
02:33 you know, in the 1800s and it was a revelation test
02:36 to realize that somebody had always kept the Sabbath,
02:39 you know, God always had His people.
02:41 So he researched that and he was...
02:44 His goal was to produce, that's why they were in Alaska.
02:46 He was collecting some interviews
02:48 on a story in Alaska, an Inupiat,
02:52 native who had come to the knowledge of the Sabbath
02:54 through God teaching him directly
02:57 in the mid 1800s.
02:59 So they were up there to do those interviews
03:00 at the time of the plane crash.
03:03 And you know, I had met Jim before I ever met you
03:06 at a camp meeting,
03:08 and I thought he was the most incredible person
03:10 I'd ever met in my life.
03:11 He told me at the airport,
03:13 we're waiting for the ride at the airport,
03:14 and he told me about some of the projects
03:15 that he was involved in.
03:17 And I thought,
03:18 "What a remarkable human being!"
03:19 And then I heard about the death,
03:21 and I watched the funeral on a video
03:22 that someone had made,
03:24 and I saw you speaking at the funeral,
03:25 and that's the first exposure I've had to you.
03:27 Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
03:29 You know, before we talk more about that,
03:31 I want to say one more thing that really struck me about God
03:35 through that experience.
03:38 A lady that I knew who had two boys the same age
03:40 as my boys been out of town or something when it happened.
03:44 And about three weeks later, we ran into each other
03:47 and she said, "Is it true what I heard about
03:50 Jim and your boys?"
03:52 And I said, "Yes, it is."
03:53 And her response was, "Wow, if it had been my boys,
03:57 I couldn't know that they were saved."
04:00 And it really struck me what her view of God must be.
04:05 You know, would God have let my boys go
04:08 without knowing that He could save them.
04:11 Could I trust God with that promise
04:12 that I'll contend with Him, and He contends with you,
04:14 and I will save your children?
04:16 Can I trust that He will do that
04:17 or can I trust that God loves my children so much
04:21 that He doesn't want to lose them
04:23 and He'll do everything in His power
04:24 to make sure that they're saved?
04:26 It almost felt like that lady was the one responsible
04:28 for saving them
04:29 and, "Oh, I would have lost out
04:31 because God would have, you know..."
04:32 'Cause my kids weren't ready yet.
04:33 I couldn't know for sure
04:35 that my kids were ready to be saved.
04:37 And I could say, I could look at my boys
04:38 and say, "I'm not sure that they're ready to be saved,
04:40 they were good kids,
04:42 they've been chosen to be baptized.
04:44 But, you know, I could see their faults.
04:48 You know, how could I know?"
04:49 And while they were in Alaska,
04:51 God put on my heart to pray this specific prayer for them
04:54 that He would put love in their hearts
04:56 as a motive for their choices.
04:58 It's not enough to do right 'cause your parents tell you
05:01 to do right.
05:02 It's not enough to do right
05:03 just because the Bible tells you what to do.
05:05 You know, doing right God's way is doing right
05:08 because you love.
05:09 And I wanted God to put that in their hearts,
05:11 I wanted them to obey,
05:14 and I wanted them to treat people well
05:15 because they love them.
05:17 And I know that God answered that prayer
05:19 because He said in Matthew 7, "Ask then you'll receive.
05:22 And if a son asks his father for bread,
05:24 he's not going to give him a stone."
05:26 So because of those promises,
05:28 I know that God did that for my sons.
05:30 And when that woman said that to me,
05:31 it just really broke my heart that she wouldn't know for sure
05:36 that God would do His absolute best
05:38 to save her sons and not let them go
05:41 if they weren't ready to be saved.
05:42 That's right, 'cause He is sovereign.
05:45 And I don't know about your view
05:46 but I think you have the same view as me,
05:48 like God doesn't make bad things happen
05:50 but He certainly could stop them
05:51 in terms of power,
05:53 He's powerful enough
05:54 to make everything go perfectly.
05:56 And we've seen God make things happen.
05:57 Yes.
05:59 You know, I've seen God...
06:00 I mean, when Jim was traveling,
06:01 you know, other trips for the project,
06:03 there were a couple times
06:04 when he was very close to losing his life,
06:06 and he saw God's hands saving his life.
06:09 So then the million-dollar question is,
06:10 why if He has the power to make things go right,
06:13 why does He make things go right?
06:14 And I think the simple answer to that is,
06:16 He has to let sin show itself for what it really is.
06:19 And if He were to micromanage the consequences of sin
06:22 and undo really the normal consequences of sin,
06:26 we would never become acquainted with this thing
06:27 that has destroyed planet earth.
06:30 We would never realize how bad it is.
06:31 We would never realize the sinfulness of sin
06:33 if we didn't suffer the consequences.
06:35 That's right.
06:36 Sin's very nature is that it is unjust.
06:38 And if God says,
06:40 "No, I'm not going to let anything bad happen,
06:41 nothing unjust can happen to this innocent people,"
06:45 the universe would never have the evidence they need
06:48 to figure out whether
06:50 selfishness is a better way to run the universe or love.
06:53 It's interesting because we know families.
06:56 I know families,
06:58 parents who do micromanage their children.
07:00 And I know families who let their children grow.
07:02 We all are raising kids, have to choose, you know.
07:04 We all have our style.
07:06 How are we gonna teach our children to be responsible.
07:07 I was way on the freedom side.
07:10 Well, you know, you want your children to grow up
07:12 and know how to make their own choices.
07:13 And I've watched families or children
07:16 don't ever get to make choices,
07:17 and they never allowed to say no,
07:19 and then they don't know how to say no to things
07:22 that they should say no to.
07:24 And they let other people make their decisions
07:26 because their parents have made all their decisions.
07:28 I wanted my kids to make their own decisions.
07:30 Statistically, an authoritarian style of parenting
07:33 tends to lead to kids being weak in that area,
07:37 and often they will join gangs
07:39 or, you know, other organizations
07:41 because they're used to decisions
07:43 being made for them.
07:44 Exact same thing, you can bear that out statistically.
07:46 Yeah, yeah.
07:48 I wanted my kids to make their own choices
07:50 to learn how to be.
07:51 But when they're young,
07:52 you have to teach them what to think
07:54 but as they get older, it's our job to teach them
07:57 how to think,
07:58 so that they can take the things
07:59 we've taught them and implement them
08:01 into their own life choices.
08:03 I'd like to come back just to for a moment
08:05 to what you were saying, what you were also saying,
08:07 Nicole, that there was a certain amount of retrospect
08:13 that happened for you after the fact that helped
08:16 with your healing process.
08:18 Can you tell us what that was like?
08:20 What you looked back on to make you realize,
08:23 "Okay, now I see God's hand in this?"
08:27 And how you were able to see the eternal
08:30 through the present after the fact of the tragedy?
08:34 Well, I think, you know, those promises
08:36 that I had read before or preparation.
08:41 You know, I think that
08:42 the assurance that I had received before
08:45 in my own journey that God is good,
08:47 and that foundational to everything is God is good,
08:50 and God loves me.
08:52 So you were prepared for the crisis
08:53 before the crisis came.
08:54 And when it hit,
08:56 you had a foundation on which to...
08:58 for your healing to build on.
09:00 I'm thinking of a scripture in this wonderful little book
09:03 by Karen Nicola.
09:06 I think you know her. I know Karen.
09:08 And she lost her child and so she was compelled
09:10 to write this book called "Comfort for the Day."
09:13 And she has a beautiful scripture,
09:15 it says, "For a light affliction,
09:17 the reflection is never late when we're going through it."
09:21 "But in retrospect which is but for a moment
09:24 is working for us
09:26 a far more exceeding in eternal weight of glory
09:29 while we do not look at the things
09:30 which are seen
09:32 but at the things which are not seen.
09:33 For the things which are seen are temporary
09:36 but the things which are not seen are eternal."
09:38 And oh, my goodness!
09:40 We don't experience that during the crisis.
09:42 No, it doesn't seem light at all
09:44 or it doesn't seem like a moment.
09:45 But you know, I want for eternal things
09:48 to be as a real to me as earthly things.
09:51 You know, I want to see the perspective that
09:54 I have a whole universe on my side,
09:56 and I'm just in this spot with the enemy
09:59 for a short and small time, that's what I want,
10:02 not that I always do see it that way
10:04 but that's the truth.
10:06 And I had this sense that God was with me
10:08 and that He surrounded us and we weren't alone in it.
10:13 When God sends the light affliction
10:14 which is but for a moment,
10:16 He's not trying to minimize the severity of our pain,
10:18 He's trying to get us to take a step back like you do
10:21 when you're painting, you know, you get lost in the minute,
10:24 so you step back and you look at the big picture
10:26 and that's what He's telling us to do here.
10:28 And you know, that for me, I had that.
10:30 For my kids,
10:31 they didn't necessarily have that.
10:33 So what your kids,
10:35 what happens to kids happens to you too.
10:36 And I had to walk this walk with them.
10:39 One morning, I gave Andy the dishes
10:42 to set the table for breakfast, and I handed him the bowls,
10:47 and he stopped and he looked at me,
10:49 he said, "Only three bowls?"
10:53 And it was so...
10:55 To go from a family of six to a family of three
10:59 was so quiet in the house.
11:01 And my kids didn't want to be home.
11:03 They wanted to be somewhere else,
11:04 they didn't want to be home.
11:06 And we had friends who would take the kids
11:07 over to their house, you know, a lot.
11:09 And I started them on music lessons
11:11 and did stuff to keep them busy
11:13 because home just was not the same.
11:16 And once again,
11:17 we talked about this in another program
11:19 but when we're dealing with grief,
11:21 you know, we cannot run from the pain.
11:23 The pain is going to come
11:24 and we have to face it and feel it.
11:26 But we can't be stuck there, we have to be able to do life.
11:29 And you were trying to do life for your children
11:31 with activities and try to normalize
11:35 as much as you can this process.
11:38 You couldn't normalize it completely, you couldn't.
11:40 Nothing was normal, you know, but I tried to keep structure,
11:44 the same structure and the same kind of schedule
11:47 that we had had before,
11:49 and then I tried to fill their time.
11:50 And we were homeschooling, and then at the same time,
11:54 Jim wasn't down at the office doing the office stuff.
11:57 So for about six months, I didn't go in either.
12:02 Other people were taking care of stuff and I stayed home.
12:04 But after about six months, I started, you know,
12:07 just going in a little bit in the afternoon
12:09 and doing some of the shipping stuff.
12:11 Did you ever think about just folding it all up?
12:14 No. No.
12:15 No, you know, we had watched God
12:18 provide for that project.
12:19 You know, He had provided funding
12:22 and Jim was always praying for a million dollars.
12:24 And you know, some money started coming in
12:26 that we could move forward with it,
12:27 and there were some volunteers
12:29 that were helping with research.
12:31 And I knew God,
12:32 we both knew God was going to do this project,
12:34 we had no doubt.
12:35 And when Jim was gone,
12:37 I still knew God was going to do that project.
12:39 And I figured, you know,
12:41 if I was willing God would do it through me,
12:43 and if I wasn't willing,
12:44 He'd find somebody else to do it.
12:45 And I knew that I wasn't capable of doing it
12:47 and I don't have the same gifts that Jim had.
12:49 So I just prayed that God would send people
12:52 who knew how to do it.
12:53 And in the meantime, I know how to research
12:55 and I could start the research
12:56 'cause everything was in his head.
12:58 There was no documentation for anything.
13:00 There was a storyboard,
13:01 almost 600 pictures that showed.
13:03 And this was really before computer technology
13:04 where you can do that.
13:05 We had just gotten our first computer,
13:07 we were doing bookkeeping on it.
13:08 So he had drawn, you know, a storyboard
13:11 that showed the people, places, events in the order
13:13 that he saw it going, but you know,
13:15 I didn't have documentation for these people
13:17 that were on there.
13:18 And I had, you know, for me, I had to have it done well
13:22 with good documentation and footnotes and everything
13:25 so that I had to know enough to know
13:26 what to keep and what to leave out.
13:28 So for the sake of the viewing audience,
13:29 can you just give a little summary
13:31 of what you were actually working on?
13:33 I was working on stories that relate
13:35 to how the Sabbath
13:37 was preserved through the centuries.
13:38 Right, okay.
13:39 So, you know,
13:41 how many people know that St. Patrick
13:42 really wasn't a Catholic,
13:43 that he was part of the early apostolic church,
13:45 and that he honored the seventh-day Sabbath?
13:48 So being able to document that,
13:50 and many, many, many other stories
13:52 through the centuries, you know.
13:54 And I'd go to a book
13:56 and then I'd go to their footnotes,
13:58 and then I order the books that were in those footnotes.
13:59 And then I'd go to the footnotes in those books
14:01 and the library at PUC would get these books for me.
14:04 And you know, I put it all...
14:06 this time, all in the computer.
14:09 And by the time I got done,
14:11 it took me eight years to research.
14:13 And I kept saying, "God, I know you can do this faster.
14:16 Please send somebody who can do it faster
14:17 and better than me."
14:19 Pat, this is a very significant part
14:22 of the healing process
14:23 that you were sharing right now,
14:25 in that, you were carrying on the legacy of your husband,
14:29 and that work needed to be carrying on
14:30 and that was healing for you.
14:32 Yeah, and it became mine.
14:34 After a while, it wasn't his, it was mine.
14:36 Yes.
14:38 That's how you're preserving the memory
14:40 and the influence of your husband,
14:42 and that's so important for us to do
14:44 when we're grieving
14:46 as how can we honor that person's life.
14:48 Yeah.
14:50 You know, it's interesting,
14:51 I have a relative who lost her husband recently.
14:54 And the next week,
14:56 she went into the closet and cleaned it all out.
14:58 I couldn't do that.
15:00 You know, my son's room
15:02 was the evidence of their existence,
15:05 and I couldn't just go and remove all the evidence
15:08 of their existence.
15:10 It took me a year before I could really take,
15:15 you know, put away all their stuff
15:17 and all of Jim's stuff.
15:18 And that's okay.
15:19 Because that was, you know,
15:21 it's the evidence of their existence.
15:23 You know, we're all different that way too,
15:24 some people can just go in, "This is my new life today."
15:26 But you know, for me,
15:28 it was a process adapting to the new life
15:31 that I have to live.
15:32 Now if those clothes are in the closet
15:34 20 years later, that would be complicated.
15:36 That might be complicated.
15:38 Twenty years later,
15:39 I'm taking them out and smelling them.
15:40 And then you hit on something I think is so important.
15:43 A dear friend of mine
15:45 lost his son to the opioid epidemic.
15:47 And you can imagine how she felt.
15:50 And her husband took it one way
15:52 and was not handling it well.
15:54 And she started a foundation to help other parents
15:58 that have children that are addicted to opioids
16:00 to help them get through it.
16:02 And so that bouncing back, that ability to use grief
16:06 and that the trauma that happened to her,
16:08 she was able to then reach out and help other people
16:10 through a project that's going to save thousands of lives.
16:13 And so this documentary that you put together
16:16 and people see that, it did something for you,
16:19 but think about all the other people
16:20 that it's gonna help as well.
16:22 Yeah, I think one of the crucial things
16:23 that we have to understand,
16:25 all of us are grappling in this world
16:26 with this central problem of faith or unbelief
16:30 which is going to be my path in life.
16:32 If I'm going to trust God with my life
16:34 or if I'm going to trust myself,
16:37 but crisis just catapults us into this.
16:40 It catalyzes everything
16:43 that is the anguish of our hearts
16:46 and makes us question where we really stand.
16:49 Every sin starts with unbelief.
16:52 And then when we engage in unbelief,
16:54 we doubt the character of God,
16:56 we doubt that He is good or loving.
16:58 Then inevitably, we engage in pride.
17:01 We start trying in some way to be God,
17:04 to substitute or to say, "If I were God,
17:08 I wouldn't have done it that way, "
17:09 which is essentially saying we're better than God.
17:12 And that's where crisis sends us,
17:17 it forces us to grapple with who God is.
17:19 Then kind of see who we really are.
17:21 Right.
17:22 You know, that kind of tested the stability of our faith.
17:25 Right, if we come out the other side
17:28 still believing He is good,
17:30 we've essentially grappled with,
17:32 "Is God who He says He is in His Word
17:34 or is He who I feel He is
17:36 or who my life circumstances have told me He is."
17:39 That's the essential choice.
17:40 Right, and that's where the challenge I think
17:42 it's for your young children.
17:44 She had a foundation, and she knew God was good
17:46 and she could reach back over her life and say,
17:48 "Okay, I have evidence."
17:50 But a seven-year-old, a nine-year-old there...
17:53 Doesn't have that history. Doesn't really have that.
17:55 They can only go about what we put in them, right?
17:57 Right.
17:58 What you said earlier, and so that's I think,
17:59 what really hit me in my chest
18:01 when you talk about your young children,
18:03 your daughter went one way in terms of,
18:04 "I don't want to deal with it."
18:06 And your son, the other way.
18:08 And so as a mother, seeing that,
18:11 what was that like for you?
18:13 Well, and you're always trying to meet your children's needs,
18:15 you know.
18:17 We did lots of talking, you know, my son,
18:20 you know, feeling like God isn't that good
18:21 or God isn't that loving.
18:23 We did lots of talking about it but, you know, talking is good,
18:26 and it has its place that doesn't necessarily
18:29 change the heart.
18:30 And to this day, my prayer for my son is that
18:33 God will reveal Himself to him,
18:36 because ultimately God has to do that, that job.
18:39 And my daughter found God for herself personally
18:42 five years later.
18:44 I would say that my son is still looking for that.
18:48 Work in progress.
18:50 He still has to grapple with that central question,
18:52 "is God who He says He is in His Word
18:54 or who I feel He is and who the circumstances
18:56 have seemed to tell me He is?"
18:58 And he tended to remember negative things,
19:00 it's more his personality to do that,
19:03 as well as the fact
19:04 that he required more discipline
19:05 than my other children did.
19:07 And so, you know, that is a memory to him
19:10 that maybe he was bad.
19:12 In fact, he even said afterwards, he said,
19:13 "I'm so bad, I'll never go to heaven."
19:15 He felt responsible for their, you know,
19:18 he took that like kids do that somehow it's his fault
19:21 that it happened.
19:23 And probably happen 'cause they don't like him.
19:25 And if they don't like him, God doesn't like me either.
19:27 And he expressed all of that.
19:29 That is the worst possible conclusions.
19:30 Yeah, and we talked about it, you know,
19:32 and we reasoned with him,
19:33 and we memorize scripture together
19:35 that would answer those doubts.
19:38 But it takes, you know,
19:40 it takes the Holy Spirit telling a person those things.
19:43 And the Holy Spirit uses people.
19:45 And we haven't talked too much about.
19:47 Well, we have talked about support.
19:48 You were a support for your children.
19:51 And I like the word catapult into crisis
19:54 because it's such a word picture,
19:56 you were catapult within the crisis.
19:59 What was your humanly support system for you?
20:02 Yes, what did you have?
20:03 Do you had church fellowship within?
20:05 Yeah, we had a church family,
20:07 we had a community that knew us.
20:09 I have family that's close.
20:10 My dad and mom lived right there in the community.
20:13 So I feel like our family was very supported.
20:17 And my children were very supported,
20:20 they were very protective of the dad spot
20:23 like they didn't want anyone trying to father them,
20:26 not even their grandpa
20:27 couldn't try to act like a dad to them.
20:29 They didn't want discipline from grandpa,
20:31 they want grandpa to be a grandpa, not dad.
20:33 So it made it a little bit more difficult for them
20:37 'cause they were so protective of that spot.
20:39 But, you know, there were men in the community
20:42 that took an interest in my kids.
20:44 There was a teacher and I put Andy in school
20:46 in sixth grade specifically to have this teacher
20:49 who had known our family for many years.
20:51 And he took on a responsibility especially with Andy for years.
20:55 And we had difficult times,
20:57 there were times when I called him
20:59 in the middle of the night.
21:00 There were times when we went down
21:01 when he was in the middle class.
21:03 Really? He would come out, yeah.
21:04 Yeah.
21:05 That's perfect because children,
21:08 they don't know it
21:09 but when they're missing their parent figure,
21:11 for someone to step in and not try to be the father.
21:15 But still to be a support that they don't know that they need.
21:19 It's a beautiful thing that happened.
21:21 I'm glad it happened with you and your family.
21:23 Yeah, you know, it was a wonderful thing.
21:26 There's still that huge hole there
21:27 because no one steps into that hole,
21:30 and the hole is there
21:32 and the kids are aware of it all the time.
21:34 If someone stepped into that hole,
21:36 I could see where they'd almost feel like
21:38 it was discounting who had been in that hole before.
21:42 May be so. Yeah.
21:44 In a child's mind especially.
21:45 And I think my kids were self conscious.
21:48 As Andy expressed it more,
21:49 you know, he felt like he was the only kid
21:51 that didn't have a dad among all these kids,
21:53 and that made him self-conscious.
21:56 I'm wondering how you handle that logistically
21:58 you're going into work now,
22:00 you're also homeschooling your kids.
22:01 What in the world?
22:03 How did you...?
22:04 I had help for a while.
22:06 A lady and her kids came and stayed with me,
22:08 and they homeschooled the kids in the mornings
22:10 while I went in.
22:12 And then the next year,
22:13 my kids are with the home-school group.
22:15 So I wasn't the hands-on only home-school teacher for them
22:21 after Jim died.
22:23 And they both turned out okay academically?
22:25 I mean, both your kids are really bright.
22:26 Yeah.
22:27 It was Marian, Andy's you know...
22:30 He was a Navy SEAL for 10 years
22:32 and now he's got his own business.
22:33 And he's...
22:35 Yeah, academically, they did fine.
22:36 My kids always tested very well on tests.
22:39 He's an entrepreneur so he started a knife company,
22:42 he makes custom knives.
22:44 I had an event at my farm, at my retreat center.
22:47 Guy pulls out a knife
22:49 because he knew you, he knew Andy.
22:50 And he pulls out a knife that Andy sold him.
22:51 Is that right? Yeah.
22:53 Yeah, yeah.
22:54 So moving forward,
22:56 were you catalyzed
22:58 that you can bring these projects to completion
23:01 by the fact that you knew Jim had envisioned them?
23:03 Was that driving you
23:05 or was it that you wanted to do it for yourself,
23:06 or can you not do yourself?
23:08 I just knew God was going to do it.
23:09 And He would use me if I'm willing
23:12 or He would find somebody else to do.
23:14 I knew God was going to accomplish it.
23:16 That's cool.
23:17 So I prayed that He would send the people
23:18 who knew how to do it
23:20 and by the time I finished research
23:22 eight years later,
23:23 I had a document
23:25 that was over 200 pages of notebook,
23:27 it had a 1000 footnotes.
23:29 In the footnotes some of them had up to 10 sources.
23:32 And Dr. Dom Steak at the seminary
23:34 had agreed to be my scholar,
23:35 so he read through it all and he would read my...
23:37 He would go to my sources,
23:39 he would let me know if I needed more documentation
23:41 in any area, he would let me know
23:43 if a source was not credible,
23:45 he showed me how to write every footnote...
23:47 What a blessing and that's not,
23:48 that's pretty tedious writing to go through.
23:51 Well, you know, I mean, it's interesting,
23:52 it was interesting stuff,
23:54 but when we actually came to production
23:56 a script writer needed to take it which I knew,
23:59 script writing is different
24:00 than writing a book or compiling research.
24:04 So then God sent the scriptwriter,
24:07 and the producer, and the host,
24:08 and all that and the money and God did it.
24:11 I remember the first time I met you,
24:12 it was at a conference
24:14 and, you know, we were chatting,
24:15 I think we went to lunch with another person
24:17 and you kind of said offhandedly,
24:19 I need a million dollars by Sunday.
24:21 So I was just like,
24:22 "Who is this woman who needs a million dollars."
24:26 But you did, and you raised the million dollars...
24:29 I didn't raise a million dollars.
24:30 God provided it.
24:33 So just give us a brief not show version
24:35 because I know you're going to do a larger program
24:37 on your project itself I think.
24:39 But people know about it,
24:41 but give just a nutshell version
24:42 of what you've been able to accomplish
24:44 by the grace of God through LLT productions.
24:46 Well, we have the doc, the Sabbath documentary,
24:48 the seventh-day series
24:49 which is five programs each one,
24:51 five DVDs each one covering
24:52 in different time period in history,
24:54 there's a bonus feature DVD that goes along with it
24:56 and that series has been translated into
24:58 I think 25 languages now,
25:01 and it's used all over the world.
25:03 Because the Sabbath is at the roots
25:05 of just about every culture somewhere.
25:08 And then after that we want to talk about
25:09 the state of the dead
25:11 because the Sabbath and the state of the dead
25:12 are the two issues that are most confusing,
25:16 almost deceiving people the most,
25:19 I'm not saying that very well.
25:20 And so many people
25:22 grapple with what happens when a person die.
25:23 Those are the questions.
25:24 The state of the dead is the bigger question
25:26 than the Sabbath for people right now anyway
25:28 because of spiritualism and us being post Christian...
25:31 And because everybody's going to die.
25:33 So if you're, if you know you're going to die
25:34 you kind of want to know sooner or later
25:36 what's going to happen to you.
25:38 So we started work on that with a film entitled
25:42 "Hell and Mr. Fudge," and it's a feature film,
25:44 it's based on the true story of a man
25:47 whose real name is Fudge, Edward Fudge.
25:50 And he was hired to find out what the Bible really teaches
25:53 about eternal torment.
25:55 Does God torment people for eternity or not?
25:58 And by the time he finishes his research and goes through,
26:01 what he goes through in the process,
26:03 he knows that God doesn't do that
26:07 that death is death, not life.
26:09 You know, because most of the Christian world believes
26:11 that there is no death,
26:13 there is either eternal life in heaven
26:14 or eternal life in hell.
26:15 They don't believe in death.
26:17 Essentially that's what it is. Yeah.
26:19 And it's the best film of its type
26:23 that I have ever seen.
26:24 It's an excellent film, it's entertaining
26:26 and how they turned such a theme of as a man
26:29 studying his way into the new doctrine,
26:31 into a very entertaining film
26:33 is one of the seven wonders of the world
26:35 because it was done, and it was done well.
26:36 It's the kind of thing God does,
26:38 He makes gold out of dirt.
26:39 That was amazing.
26:40 Because He knows you're just dust
26:42 and then He says,
26:43 "I'm going to make gold out of it."
26:45 And I have to admit when I meet people
26:46 and I'm like you're such
26:47 a behind the scenes kind of person
26:49 but when I meet people I'll be like,
26:50 "Have you seen Hello and Mr. Fudge, "
26:51 and they would be like, "Yeah, that was amazing."
26:53 And I'd be like,
26:54 "I happen to know the producer of that film.
26:55 She happens to be a really good friend of mine,
26:57 you know."
26:58 It's really a privilege to know you,
27:00 it really is, yeah.
27:01 Isn't it interesting, Pat,
27:02 that the projects you have worked on
27:04 have been related to death.
27:06 And I wonder if you would have been able
27:07 to accomplish what you did
27:10 having not going through what you do.
27:12 It does certainly change a person's perspective
27:16 and it opens this
27:17 whole new world to you of people
27:20 who also experience death.
27:22 Amen.
27:23 And the fact that you had gone through this
27:26 and you found such comfort in knowing
27:28 what the Bible says about death gave you
27:31 I think a strength that other people would envy.
27:34 I mean, I remember when I was grappling with,
27:36 is my husband going to survive,
27:39 it was so important to know God's love.
27:42 I don't think the best way to say
27:47 it is true triumph from tragedy.
27:49 I think the best way to say it is beauty from tragedy.
27:53 That's what we've heard about today.
27:55 And God can do the same thing in your life,
27:58 believe it and everything will change.


Revised 2018-12-30