Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170039A
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00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:28 We're so glad you've joined us for our program today. 00:31 We're titling the program third season recap 00:34 because we're going to recap all of the programs 00:37 we've had this season. 00:38 Let me give you just a little bit of history. 00:40 Our first season, we didn't have guests at all. 00:42 We just had a multitude of counselors discussing 00:45 different mental health issues. 00:47 The second season, we decided to invite 00:49 guests on that could help 00:51 to make it a little more personal 00:53 and we discussed mental health issues. 00:56 This third season, 00:57 we've had guests but we've had guests 01:00 taking up two segments instead of just one. 01:02 So we ended up with an odd program, 01:05 not that this is going to be an odd program. 01:07 It's going to be an awesome program, 01:09 but it's the 13th one, 01:10 and what we're going to do is recap all of the others. 01:13 So I'm going to just take them one by one. 01:14 We're going to spend four, five minutes 01:16 talking over the gist of the program 01:19 and then what was the takeaway 01:20 because we find that mental health providers 01:22 are often really focused in problems. 01:24 We wanted to find the problem for sure, 01:27 but we also wanna have some kind of takeaway, 01:28 some kind of action step. 01:30 So let's do it, guys. You up for it? 01:32 Yes. Let's do this. 01:34 So glad you're here this morning. 01:35 So let's introduce our amazing panel 01:37 of counselors today. 01:39 It's Paul Coneff from Texas. 01:41 He's a marriage and family therapist 01:42 and runs Straight 2 The Heart ministries 01:45 and is an author and a bunch of other amazing things. 01:47 And we have Christina Cecotto. 01:49 She's from Tennessee, 01:51 she's a licensed professional counselor. 01:53 And oops, I said that wrong. 01:54 You're an... 01:56 LCSW, licensed clinical. 01:57 LCSW, licensed clinical social worker. 02:00 But that effectively is a professional counselor. 02:03 And we have Dr. Jean Wright, 02:05 he's a clinical forensic psychologist 02:07 from Pennsylvania, Philadelphia to be specific. 02:10 And we have Rob Davison. 02:13 And Rob Davison is a professional counselor 02:16 from Maryland. 02:17 And I am so thankful that each one of you are here 02:20 to do this amazing recap. 02:22 So let's put on our thinking caps 02:24 and try to distill down 02:26 what was on each one of these programs 02:27 and what was the takeaway, 02:29 what can we give people to think about. 02:31 Jamie George talked about dictatorship 02:33 in mental health. 02:34 Boiling that down, 02:36 we realize that servant leadership 02:37 was really an important thing 02:39 because you can take that dictatorship that 02:42 micromanagement of people that are under your power, 02:46 so to speak, 02:47 and you can take that principle and that repression 02:51 and you can put that in a family 02:53 or in a church with devastating results. 02:56 Have you guys every experienced that, 02:58 micromanagement dictatorship? 03:00 Yeah, control can take place anywhere. 03:02 That's right. 03:03 And then we're shutting down 03:05 other people's ability to blossom. 03:06 That's right. How so though? 03:07 Like, why can't we just be controlled 03:09 and like blossom in that control, 03:10 like what happens? 03:12 I think it's a matter of really looking at leadership 03:15 from a standpoint of you don't manage people, 03:18 you manage things, projects, initiatives, you lead people. 03:21 And so the servant leadership part, 03:23 for me, is that you serve first. 03:25 And in your service, 03:26 you demonstrate to the people who work for you 03:28 or with you or around you 03:30 that that is the most important thing. 03:32 And then they are more likely to follow your lead 03:34 when you demonstrate an air and an attitude of service. 03:37 And I think it's, you know, if somebody says, 03:40 "I'm in charge, I'm the head of the house, 03:42 or I'm the CEO, whatever. 03:44 I'm the leader and you do it my way," 03:46 it's safe in the short run 03:48 because I don't have to navigate the messiness 03:50 of getting to know your story, 03:52 you getting to know my story, working it out, 03:54 creating win-win situations. 03:55 It's much easier to just say do it in the short run. 03:58 But we lose the relationship component. 03:59 So it can seem more efficient, 04:01 like a dictatorial style of leadership 04:03 can seem more efficient in the short run, 04:05 but it ends up being less efficient 04:06 in the long run, would you say that? 04:08 Oh, yeah. 04:09 When we're on the receiving end of being controlled, 04:11 we take away all dignity, we take away all creativity, 04:14 and this is not what God is about. 04:16 I think that's the first thing to go is the creativity. 04:18 He gives us the freedom of choice, 04:20 and so we have to figure out what life is about. 04:22 Now, control is important, 04:24 but we don't want to be fully controlled, 04:26 that just takes away our... 04:28 A more dictatorship authoritarian approach to me 04:31 is the person's very, very insecure. 04:33 They don't have the security 04:34 to enter into the messiness of relationships 04:36 where we're going to agree to disagree. 04:38 We're not always going to think alike. 04:39 Yeah. Yeah. 04:41 So bottom line is we need to encourage anybody 04:43 in a position of power over other people 04:45 to be a servant leader rather than a dictator. 04:47 What do you do if you're under a dictator? 04:51 How can we encourage those folks? 04:52 Pray. Pray? 04:54 Lots of prayer. 04:55 Revolt? No. 04:56 We have a lot of examples, Daniel, Shadrach, 04:58 Meshach, and Abednego. 05:00 We have Mordecai rising up and serving. 05:02 There's ways to serve. 05:03 Nehemiah was... 05:04 So we have a lot of biblical examples of people 05:06 who were clear about who they were, 05:07 who their God was while they were serving. 05:09 Let me ask you a question. I run into this. 05:11 People say, 05:12 "Wives should submit to their husbands." 05:15 And, you know, we've all heard that. 05:16 But some people take the view that wives should always submit 05:20 to their husbands 05:22 unless the husband asked them to do something 05:24 that in and of itself is wrong. 05:26 But I don't agree with that. 05:27 And here's why. 05:29 Because there are some husbands that tell the wife what to eat, 05:33 what to wear, what to say, 05:35 and that in and of itself is wrong 05:37 because that's taking away that woman's freewill. 05:40 You get down to creation. 05:42 We are created in whose image? 05:44 God's. God's. 05:45 So if I start micromanaging somebody to the point 05:48 where I'm telling you what to do, 05:49 how to dress, what to eat, 05:51 am I robbing you? 05:52 Of your individuality. 05:54 And to me, the evil of dictatorship 05:56 and that kind of control, and it's mind control. 05:58 That's right. 06:00 It might be too strong of a word, but it's mind rape. 06:02 We're raping somebody else's mind. 06:03 Yes. 06:05 And so what we're doing is 06:06 I'm creating you now in my image. 06:08 That's right. That's why it's wrong. 06:09 That's why it's controlling. 06:10 And so even if nothing... 06:12 We're not asked to do something immoral 06:14 in a given dictatorship situation, 06:16 it's just the control that's wrong. 06:18 I really like the verse that says everything you do, 06:21 do unto God, not unto man. 06:22 And I can't quote the reference exactly, 06:25 but I think that goes with everything. 06:27 We don't need to eat and dress and everything 06:30 according to what our husbands want necessarily. 06:34 Of course, we want to take into consideration... 06:35 There might be a place for submission 06:37 even to a tyrant. 06:38 Depends on the context. 06:40 There's a line, there's just a point where you can't submit. 06:42 But we also... 06:44 And we'll get into it later, but Mike Tucker, 06:45 we talked about the difference between being in a relationship 06:49 with dysfunction versus abuse. 06:50 Yes, yeah. 06:52 And even in Ephesians 5 where it says submit, 06:54 before that, it says submit, one, to God first. 06:58 And then before that, it says speak to evil, 07:01 don't associate with it. 07:02 So in Ephesians 5, it says, 07:05 if there's evil, if there's wrong, expose it, 07:08 not just submit to it mindlessly because then, 07:11 if I submit to it mindlessly, 07:13 I'm giving up my responsibility 07:16 to be a thinking person created in the image of God. 07:18 And you're actually creating a codependent relationship too 07:21 when you're enabling the abuser or the dictator 07:23 or whatever you want to call it 07:25 to continue acting the way that he's acting. 07:26 I've seen this on church boards for many years. 07:29 There was a bully on the church board 07:30 and nobody wants to take him on 07:31 because they know they'll be his next target. 07:33 You'll see what happens. 07:34 So now they're reinforcing, 07:35 they're enabling his negative behavior. 07:37 Scripture is clear. 07:38 It's not just the woman to submit to the husband. 07:40 The husband is also to submit to the wife. 07:43 Amen. 07:44 It goes both ways. 07:46 And what is submission 07:47 but it's a willingness to want to serve. 07:49 Certainly, yeah. 07:50 Submission is predicated on sacrifice. 07:52 So if someone has sacrificed for you, 07:53 you can safely submit to them 07:54 because they have your good in mind. 07:56 So moving on to the next program we had, 07:59 it actually kind of flows into their theme. 08:01 They talked about becoming life partners through prayer. 08:04 It was Jason and Natanya Vanderlaan. 08:06 And they literally fell in love and courted in the context 08:09 of going through a 40-day prayer challenge 08:12 on the phone. 08:13 He lives several states away. 08:15 And they talked about the way that they conduct 08:17 their marriage and how they're committed 08:18 to radical honesty with one another. 08:20 And so they talk through difficult issues. 08:23 They have the hard conversations 08:25 because they don't want to stray away 08:27 from their union even in thought. 08:29 And they have different views. 08:30 So what do we do 08:32 if we have different views in a marriage? 08:33 We have to bring... 08:35 We may not be able to have the same narrative, 08:38 but we can at least coordinate our narratives, 08:41 and we can at least understand one another. 08:42 What I find is that people 08:44 don't really need to be agreed with. 08:45 They just need to be understood. 08:46 Have you found that to be true? 08:48 Yes. 08:49 This is the model that God has of marriage. 08:50 He doesn't expect us to be carbon copies of each other. 08:53 And when you say radical openness, 08:55 that is the key to relationship is that openness 08:57 and the honesty 08:59 and what that will develop over time, 09:01 the more we know one another, 09:02 the more we're going to be into each other, 09:04 that is intimacy. 09:06 That is into-me-see. That's beautiful. 09:08 And I think we need to also look at 09:09 our styles of relating, 09:11 how have I learned to navigate 09:12 and survive in life 09:14 and how do I bring that into the marriage 09:15 because a lot of marriages, 09:17 you know, we just talked about controlling dominant marriages, 09:19 dictatorship, 09:21 but there can also be where both couples 09:22 avoid conflict. 09:24 It can be a quiet marriage on the outside. 09:25 But we're not having those difficult issues. 09:28 And there are some who brag about, 09:29 "I never had a fight with my spouse." 09:31 And I always think, "What's wrong with this?" 09:33 Well, maybe it's good, I hope so. 09:35 Maybe they're actually working things out, but sometimes, 09:37 it means that there's just this quietness 09:39 and there's so much going on inside 09:41 and there's so much sadness 09:42 and pain and nothing's being discussed. 09:44 Or one person is completely subjugated 09:47 to the other and they have no individually left. 09:49 Right. 09:51 I've had people tell me, like, after I do marriage counseling, 09:52 "Well, we don't really have those problems." 09:54 And I asked one couple, I said, 09:55 "Well, there's one person not showing up." 09:57 Exactly. 09:58 And the husband is honest. 09:59 And he said, "Well, 10:01 my wife does tend to please me." 10:02 So what that means is he needs to be responsible 10:05 to be drawing her out. 10:06 Yeah. 10:07 Because otherwise, if she's just pleasing, 10:09 they're missing out on the real intimacy. 10:10 Don't take advantage of her passive personality. 10:12 Or she's just going to please and not rock the waves. 10:15 And that's not getting a close touch. 10:18 And true servant leadership 10:19 lifts people to their full potential. 10:21 Yeah. Exactly. 10:23 It's like we should be high tides 10:24 because when the high tide comes in, 10:25 it lifts all the boats. 10:27 Love that. 10:28 And I think one of the barriers 10:30 to radical honesty is defensiveness. 10:32 What do you mean? 10:34 There's this personalizing, I guess, or shaming of oneself. 10:38 "Man, I must not be any good if she's saying such and such" 10:40 as opposed to "Okay, let's work on this. 10:43 This behavior that 10:44 she's talking about really stinks." 10:46 So kind of making some distance between that. 10:48 The hardest complaint to hear is the one about you, you know? 10:51 And I think that's why it's so important 10:53 to listen and not just hear. 10:56 It sounds simple, it's difficult to do. 10:58 And when people are talking 11:00 and you have that radical honesty, 11:01 we're preparing our response to what the person is saying. 11:04 That means you're not listening. 11:05 Instead of listening to that. Yeah, you're not listening. 11:06 It's really dying to self. Absolutely. 11:08 And really focusing on the other person 11:10 and being willing to enter in, and be a team player. 11:12 You have to make time to do that though and know 11:13 that that's what you're going to be doing. 11:15 And you may hear some hard truths, 11:16 you know, but that's fine. 11:18 You know, if you're going to do this together, 11:19 that's what communication is. 11:20 And that's how you grow. Exactly. 11:22 It's avoided because it's painful, 11:23 but that's how you grow. If you don't avoid it... 11:25 We actually had a lot of real alpha 11:26 types on this season, 11:28 did you notice that, like several, 11:30 like really high powered individuals? 11:32 And one of them was Sean Boonstra, 11:34 and his program was titled 11:36 "The Man Who Almost Never Slept" 11:37 because he has sleep issues. 11:40 But we dug down into the layers, didn't we? 11:43 And we found that 11:44 he also has some issues with perfectionism, 11:46 but then it's kind of hard to call it an issue 11:48 because it really works for him and he's a high achiever. 11:51 And he kind of wasn't ready to let go of it. 11:54 We really tried with him but it was just... 11:56 Didn't he kind of separate out? 11:58 He really compartmentalized, like... 12:00 We identified perfectionism for sure. 12:03 I proposed the idea of putting a tweet out there 12:07 with a typo in it and leaving the typo, 12:09 and he almost had a meltdown right in front of us. 12:12 But he said that he had completely 12:14 compartmentalized salvation 12:16 away from his career achievement perfectionism. 12:19 So he knew that he stood in Christ's merits, 12:22 but he was also very, very particular 12:24 about the work that he did. 12:26 So we decided to leave it there. 12:28 He did say that we should do another program 12:30 with him on introversion 12:32 because he claims he's just an incredible introvert, 12:34 so we'll have to revisit that and see if we get 12:36 a little farther next time with Sean Boonstra, 12:38 but he was delightful to have... 12:40 We also had Mike Tucker, another type A high achiever. 12:45 He talked about 12:46 a vulnerable moment of his life. 12:48 He had lost his wife of 40 years recently, 12:53 a couple years ago. 12:54 And then we talked about that story, 12:57 and then his remarriage. 12:59 Did you guys track with that? 13:01 That was a pretty heart-wrenching story. 13:03 It was just a short amount of time 13:05 that he found out that she had pancreatic 13:07 and liver cancer, 13:08 and then a few weeks later... 13:09 She was gone. She was gone. 13:11 And one of the things he said was so interesting. 13:13 It was several months after she had died, 13:16 and he was just kind of getting through 13:17 the grief process. 13:19 But something great happened with his ministry, 13:22 some triumph, you know, that he had accomplished, 13:24 and God had done an amazing thing for him. 13:26 And immediately, he wanted to call someone. 13:29 But there was nobody to share with. 13:30 And there was no one to call. 13:31 And then he realized, "I need to get remarried," 13:33 I think he thought in that moment. 13:35 Didn't he say that one reason to get married is that so that, 13:39 especially, the woman can witness the man's life. 13:42 What does that mean to witness the life, didn't he say that? 13:44 I think he said something to that effect. 13:46 We all need a witness. 13:47 We need somebody close to us 13:49 because we are defining intimacy 13:51 as not just sexual intimacy 13:53 because that's what we tend to put on the term, 13:55 but intimacy is really sharing our life together, 13:57 sharing our stories, creating meaning together. 14:00 And when he has something very special happen, 14:02 he had no special person to add to the meaning of that, 14:05 to witness that, see that. 14:07 And being married keeps you accountable. 14:09 Doesn't that go back to why God created us? 14:11 Because He wants to share Him with us and us with Him. 14:18 Right. 14:19 I mean, the whole point of creating Eve speaks to that. 14:21 I mean, Adam was doing pretty well. 14:23 I don't know how long he was by himself, 14:24 but he was not paired up, and the rest of the people... 14:28 I'm sorry, 14:29 the rest of the animals in garden had a partner. 14:30 They're people, animals or people too. 14:32 Thank you very much. Appreciate that. 14:33 But yeah, he was alone. 14:35 And it's not good for man to be alone. 14:36 Right, right. 14:37 And so from the very beginning... 14:39 And Tucker talked about particularly males, 14:40 men, have a hard time being... 14:42 And we know the research is that men do 14:44 better health wise and mental health wise... 14:47 We live longer. Yeah. 14:48 We keep them on track. Absolutely. 14:51 Get married pretty quickly. 14:52 What do you say, 10 to 15 months after... 14:55 A man that's happily married, typically marries... 14:57 Yeah, so that's the average statistic. 14:59 Yeah, that was certainly true in his case. 15:01 But I love that thought that 15:02 we need to not only love and be loved, 15:05 but we need to know and be known. 15:07 That experience of having someone else 15:09 witness your life is, 15:11 I think, essential to mental health. 15:13 And maybe we could speak 15:14 to the lonely people in the world 15:15 because loneliness is so pandemic. 15:18 How can people start to connect? 15:20 What are some of the things 15:22 that you share with your clients, guys? 15:24 I think it's important to find small groups. 15:27 It can be two or three, it could be five or six, 15:29 seven people 15:30 that we're sharing life together. 15:32 Amen, amen. 15:33 I think it's important also to participate in activities, 15:36 particularly, like a community service, 15:38 you know, joining yourself to a group, an organization, 15:41 someone who's doing good. Having a purpose. 15:42 Yeah, having a purpose, doing good, helping others. 15:44 When you help others, 15:46 it takes the focus off of yourself 15:47 and your loneliness. 15:48 You're living a larger story. 15:50 Yeah, absolutely. 15:51 Pushing yourself a little bit to get out there 15:53 when we don't really feel like. 15:54 Yeah. Right. 15:55 You know, I was waiting for this scripture to come in. 15:58 And this is the place. Okay, go for it. 16:00 We're talking about relationship and knowing. 16:02 Okay. 16:05 John 17:3 says... 16:08 It says, "And this is eternal life 16:09 that they may know You, 16:11 the only true God and Jesus Christ 16:12 whom You have sent." 16:14 We're talking about knowing God 16:15 and Jesus Christ, 16:17 and we don't just know Him, 16:18 that's a process of getting to know Him. 16:20 So for lonely people, yes, we need the small groups, 16:22 we need to get out in the communities too. 16:24 But to know the Father and the Son, 16:27 that is the foundation of what all of our clients 16:31 and we need is to know, and that's a process. 16:34 So that's the vertical connection. 16:36 And you're saying that people will actually do better, 16:39 I'm adding to what you're saying, 16:40 in the horizontal relationship process 16:42 if they have that vertical connection. 16:45 I think that God is all about that. 16:47 But don't people also come to the vertical connection 16:50 through horizontal fellowship so they kind of... 16:52 Both ways. Both ways. 16:53 But also scientific research shows those who live faithfully 16:56 tend to live longer, healthier, recover from surgery better. 16:59 So, you know, oftentimes, 17:01 people find one thing that they like, 17:02 and then they camp on just that, just small groups, 17:04 just outreach, just a relationship with God. 17:06 We need all the pieces of the puzzle. 17:08 And it's interesting to me that all of the things 17:10 that we've mentioned here, 17:11 faith, small groups, and activities, 17:13 and community services type of thing are all things 17:17 that we can find through church. 17:18 Yes. 17:19 You know, I'm constantly telling my clients, 17:21 you need to find a church home. 17:22 Right. 17:24 And because that's like the clearinghouse 17:25 of all these different things. 17:26 Another tool, I think too, is journaling. 17:30 If you're not having a partner, if you don't have a partner, 17:32 or if you're grieving, journaling, I think, 17:34 is a really good tool because it can help you 17:37 take time to reflect on yourself. 17:39 It can help you realize things about yourself. 17:41 And actually, there's a quote, 17:43 and it actually talks about the secret of the success 17:46 of a Christian walk. 17:47 And it says, "Christian workers 17:49 can never attain the highest success 17:51 until they learn the secret of strength. 17:53 They must give themselves time to think, to pray, 17:56 to wait upon God for the renewal of physical, 17:59 mental, and spiritual power." 18:01 Time to think, "What's that?" 18:04 And Mike spoke to that because he talked about it, 18:07 he did writing, and writing, and writing about it. 18:09 And he also walked, like he said, 18:11 I think 15 miles a day or something, 18:13 which I totally get 18:15 because I think best when I walk, 18:17 and I actually take clients on walks 18:19 when they have trauma to work through sometimes 18:21 because walking bilateralizes the brain. 18:23 So I think walking is a gift to us 18:25 to help us process mentally. 18:27 Have you found that to be true? Oh, yeah, absolutely. 18:29 And a disclaimer about the journaling. 18:31 If you're journaling for grief purposes, 18:33 I always tell people, 18:34 you can pour out your heart 18:36 just like David did in the Psalms, 18:37 but you want to make sure you end on a positive note. 18:40 And what I did with one individual is, 18:42 every time they just poured out how hopeless they felt 18:45 that they found a verse that was contrary 18:47 to what they were feeling 18:49 because when they started journaling, 18:50 they actually got more depressed. 18:52 And so I said, "Okay, we got to add in some verses. 18:54 And that's where Comfort for the Day by Karen Nicola, 18:56 that's very good. 18:58 It's comfort for the day, so it's one day at a time, 19:00 we're not asking you to read a book, 19:02 we're asking to think about scripture, 19:03 process the point. 19:05 Now isn't it so though 19:06 that there are going to be times 19:07 when grief is so intense 19:09 that you can't see anything positive, 19:10 like I'm thinking Pat Arrabito, A Mother's Tears that program? 19:14 There was a period of time there she lost her husband 19:16 and her two oldest children to a plane crash, 19:19 all in one fell, swoop. 19:21 And how could you possibly think positive 19:24 or I should say feel positive 19:26 even though she's continued to claim the promises of God? 19:28 I don't think you're going to feel positive 19:30 but I think grieving with hope is key 19:33 to not getting into something called complicated grief 19:35 which is the unhealthy type of grieving. 19:39 Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt. 19:40 She made it very clear 19:41 that she wasn't preparing for a crisis, 19:45 but she was prepared for the crisis. 19:47 How? 19:48 She had a walk with God that was very solid. 19:51 And then when the crisis came, 19:53 she had a lot to fall back onto that God is good, 19:56 that God is going to get her through this 19:57 even though it was extremely painful. 19:59 Yeah. 20:00 And she said the one thing she couldn't handle 20:01 was losing children. 20:03 So she's being honest with God. 20:04 She not only said that there's one thing 20:06 she couldn't handle but she knew 20:08 that God would not take her children. 20:09 Right. 20:10 And then that very belief that she had was shattered 20:13 when she learned that they were gone, 20:14 I mean, no survivors. 20:15 Can you imagine that moment? 20:17 And then she had to accept that reality. 20:18 Wow. 20:20 So part of her preparation was being honest with God, 20:22 and then when life radically shifted for her, 20:25 she moved into that reality with God, 20:27 which has a lot of sadness, a lot of pain, a lot of grief, 20:29 but she moved into it in a very realistic way. 20:32 And she also spoke very poignantly 20:34 about the effect on her two surviving children 20:37 that were younger, 20:38 which really touched me when she talked about, 20:40 you know, her children, especially her son. 20:42 And because at the age, developmental level, 20:44 they were not prepared for the loss 20:46 that they had experienced. 20:47 They lost half their family. 20:49 Right, and just the simple things 20:50 like him setting the table and having three bowls. 20:53 And saying, "There's only three." 20:54 Yeah, when they were a family of six. 20:56 That really hit me that the difficulty 20:59 for children to process grieve is different. 21:01 So yes, she had a foundation with God, 21:03 and she said that God is good. 21:05 But a seven and nine-year-old, maybe not the same. 21:08 And even though she had that foundation with God, 21:10 imagine that foundation shifting quite a bit. 21:12 Yes. 21:13 With that one belief system that she had 21:15 and that God would never take away her children 21:16 and yet that happened, 21:18 so even having that foundation 21:20 as her coping skill was probably shifting. 21:23 This is maybe a subtle point. 21:24 But did it hurt her to believe 21:26 that God would take her children? 21:29 I would say no. 21:30 And I would say, well, 21:32 we have a choice between believing 21:33 something very positive 21:35 and believing something negative, 21:36 and they're equally plausible, believe the positive one. 21:39 So she believed that God would spare her children 21:43 didn't turn out to be true, 21:44 but that didn't really put her at a disadvantage. 21:46 Some people would say, "No, 21:47 believe the worst 21:49 because that prepares you for the worst." 21:50 What I find is people believe the worst 21:51 trying to prepare for the worse. 21:53 There's no end to the worst. 21:54 I feel like being ready for God's will kind of like 21:57 when Jesus was asking, 21:58 you know, "Please take this cup of suffering from Me," 22:01 yeah, He eventually said... 22:03 What did He say? Someone help me out here. 22:04 "Not My will but Thy will be done." 22:06 Right, "Now My will but Your will be done." 22:08 So I think that's the safest place 22:10 to be as opposed to... 22:12 At least that's what I found in my own life 22:14 when there's disappointment. 22:15 And I thought, "This is the one thing 22:17 God would never do and it happened." 22:18 So for me, that's my safe place is just saying 22:21 let Your will be done 22:22 because I don't know what it is. 22:23 I think it's also important to understand 22:25 that God is sovereign. 22:26 And so we may want something or think, 22:28 "He's not going to do that, you know, 22:30 He's only going to do what He thinks like a handle. 22:32 Well, God I can't handle this." 22:34 But that's not up to us to... 22:36 That's not up to us. 22:37 We got to reason the other way and say, "If God let it happen, 22:39 it must be that I can handle." 22:41 Exactly. Well, where is God in it? 22:42 How many time have we prayed 22:44 and it didn't come out the way we wanted? 22:45 Exactly. 22:47 You don't turn and run from God. 22:48 You say, "Okay, You're in charge." 22:49 He gives you the strength. 22:51 CS Lewis said, 22:52 we shouldn't bring to God what should be in us, 22:53 what ought to be in us, but what is in us. 22:55 So she's bringing to God, 22:57 "I couldn't imagine losing my children, 22:59 so you wouldn't do that." 23:00 But that didn't stop her 23:02 from staying connected to God in very strong way 23:05 and trusting His promise. 23:06 In other words, you can say, "God, 23:07 I think you might have miscalculated, 23:09 but I'm going to stay with You 23:10 and find out maybe You're right." 23:12 It wasn't a significant that even on this program, 23:14 all these 20 years later, there were still tears. 23:18 So somebody said that, yeah, the grieving goes on, 23:22 so the pain will come back periodically, and that's okay. 23:26 So it's an unrealistic expectation 23:28 to think that all that pain is just going to evaporate 23:29 and you'll be totally past that. 23:31 It's been said that tears are a sign 23:32 that love was there. 23:34 That's exactly right. 23:35 So, she's not going to stop loving 23:36 her husband and her children. 23:38 That's right, that's right. 23:39 Yeah, she's doing life very well now, 23:40 but there are still times 23:42 when we feel the intensity of the pain, 23:45 and we still are able to function of life 23:48 and come to other people's side 23:49 and help them through their pain. 23:51 Grieving with hope. 23:52 And yet we have that hope. Like Christine said. 23:55 The Apostle Paul said and Christine 23:56 has brought those up a couple times, 23:58 grieving with hope. 23:59 Yes. Yes. 24:00 Wow. 24:02 One of the most kind of scary shows was escaping 24:03 from the black hole of depression. 24:05 And I added to the title, 24:07 all the other things that Steve Walberg 24:08 was going through, 24:09 that was really kind of a harrowing journey, wasn't it? 24:12 But he came out on the other side of it. 24:13 Here's the strong man, this evangelist, 24:16 you know, communicator, 24:17 and a leader, and all of a sudden, 24:20 he stopped sleeping. 24:21 And then he takes some medications, 24:24 and the medications start to have side effects, 24:26 and there's this process, 24:29 and then he starts to have anxiety and panic, 24:32 and he ends up almost coming unglued. 24:34 I mean, he just describes it, like he... 24:36 He's very honest about it, 24:37 I was amazed how honest he was. 24:39 He said he was broken. Yeah. 24:40 Yeah. Oh, yeah. 24:42 One more than that, 24:43 he was actually thinking about, 24:44 "I am dying." 24:46 Yeah, yeah. He imagined being in a casket. 24:48 Yeah, yeah. 24:50 I was really touched by the fact that, you know, 24:52 he's got a reputation to protect an image 24:55 to kind of polish up. 24:57 And a lot of times, 24:58 when you become a public figure, 25:00 you become very image-conscious, 25:02 and donations are contingent upon you being able to, 25:05 you know, all kinds of stuff, 25:06 it's all kind of ramifications 25:08 of letting your image get tarnished, 25:09 but he's like been very honest about. 25:11 And I don't think it's hurt his ministry at all. 25:13 It's expanded. 25:15 I wonder how many of us, 25:16 if we would allow ourselves 25:17 to be who we really are publicly, 25:20 well, he got the place he couldn't hide it, 25:22 but you know... Here's an opportunity. 25:24 A lot of people are just seeing... 25:26 They want to know who we are publicly. 25:28 So I know this is not the program, but... 25:30 Yeah, we've been talking... 25:32 And we've been talking about in future seasons 25:34 to have the counselors themselves 25:35 become the guests. 25:37 How did we get into... 25:38 I'm just not ready for that yet. 25:40 But I think one thing about Steve, 25:41 I noticed too, was, 25:44 you know, it's very important to him to know 25:46 that we all believe in prayer. 25:48 I have a prayer in discipleship ministry, 25:49 but sometimes when I'm training, 25:51 people get disappointed when I say, 25:52 work with professionals, 25:53 work with counselors, work with doctors. 25:55 And they go, 25:57 but then prayer isn't all powerful. 25:58 No, prayer can lead you to it. 25:59 And so one of the things 26:01 that Steve is very passionate about is a friend, 26:02 Kerry Gibson, 26:03 "I want you to go talk to a doctor, Dr. Nedley," 26:07 and that made difference because prayer alone 26:09 would not have been enough for him, 26:11 he was on these medications. 26:12 You know, you don't pray for a broken leg, 26:13 you go have it set, and he had a broken brain. 26:15 But you can pray too. 26:16 And so he went to a professional 26:18 who could do professional blood tests, 26:19 get scientific evidence, and what was in his blood... 26:21 And the brain is the physical organ 26:23 than sometimes develops... 26:24 And then begin to withdraw from those, get medications, 26:26 it would help him withdrawing a healthier way, 26:29 and then give him supplements. 26:30 And prayer is important, prayer led him to that place. 26:33 And it was part of it, and counseling was part of it. 26:35 When I just read this morning, 26:36 and Mrs. White says that faith is prayer with works. 26:41 So taking action, praying, but also taking action... 26:43 And don't you think like when we do counseling, 26:46 like sometimes you come to a place with a person 26:47 where you're like, 26:49 you need more than what counseling can offer you, 26:50 and it's good that we're able to admit that, 26:53 and just say it is what it is. 26:54 Especially for those more serious 26:55 psychological disorders, 26:57 I think, it's important that medication can bring you 26:58 to a baseline where counseling 27:00 and therapy can be more effective. 27:01 That's right. 27:03 So I often tell my clients, you know, 27:04 pray without ceasing and take your medication, 27:06 especially if that's what's working for you, 27:08 that combination with this depression, anxiety. 27:11 You know, the research says 27:12 that it's a combination of medicine and prayer. 27:14 And definitely psychotic disorders, 27:16 you can't even really expect to treat those effectively 27:20 without some kind of medical intervention. 27:22 And we need to see resources, 27:23 there's different pieces of the same puzzle 27:25 as opposed to either or. 27:27 A lot of people get into black and white either or. 27:30 Now this is complementing each other working together. 27:32 You bring all of the resources on a given problem, and then, 27:36 you know, you can start to remove certain ones, 27:38 you know, and see if there's still... 27:39 See what works for you. 27:40 And Steve's a good example there because he's sharing 27:42 with friends, a friend shares with him. 27:44 And then... Yeah. 27:45 Let me just plug here. 27:46 If we're on medication, 27:48 make sure that we're under medical supervision. 27:49 Medical supervision. 27:51 Well, obviously, we're very chatty today. 27:53 We enjoyed this recap, it was good. 27:55 And it was kind of breakneck, 27:57 but join us for the next season of A Multitude of Counselors. 28:01 May God bless you. 28:03 Amen. |
Revised 2019-01-03