Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW019028A
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00:15 This is 3ABN Now with John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
00:20 Hello. Thank you for joining us on 3ABN Now. 00:24 I know that over the weeks, over the years, we've been doing 00:28 this it's been a real privilege to meet with people 00:30 from different parts of the world. 00:32 And today we have with us Dr. James Gibson. 00:36 I thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure! 00:40 And he is the director of Geoscience Research Institute 00:44 at Loma Linda, California. 00:46 Now that's an interesting title: director. 00:49 So you are over the whole Geoscience Research Institute, 00:53 is that right? Well, it's a small institute 00:55 so it's not that big, but yes, I have the responsibility 00:59 of kind of keeping things going, 01:01 trying to help everybody do their work. 01:03 Just give us a very short idea of what the Geoscience Research 01:08 Institute does. Oh, thank you for asking. 01:10 The Geoscience Research In- stitute is a group of scientists 01:15 studying the relationship of science and faith - um-hmm - 01:18 particularly in the area of creation... 01:20 Biblical creation and, of course, that includes evolution 01:23 and geology, and philosophy and so on. 01:27 But we're part of the Seventh-day Adventist church - 01:30 um-hmm - established particularly for that purpose. 01:33 Umm! And most people don't know very much about us 01:36 but actually we were established in 1958. 01:39 Umm! So we're 60+ years old now. 01:43 That's very interesting 'cause I think of 1958 01:46 when the DNA was first discovered 01:48 so it actually made a change in a lot of the thinking 01:52 of a lot of men in science. 01:53 So... Well I've got a Bible verse that you have chosen 01:57 for the program today and it's John 10:10. 02:00 And this is one I hear quite often 02:03 from Danny Shelton on 3ABN. 02:06 And it says: "The thief cometh not 02:09 but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. 02:13 I am come that they might have life 02:16 and that they might have it more abundantly. " 02:19 Why have you chosen that verse today? 02:22 Well I like... I'm a biologist, right? 02:26 I study life, and this text 02:30 has I suppose two relationships there. 02:34 One is it's focused toward life. 02:38 Jesus is the One who brought... who created life. 02:42 So He's the foundation of biology in a sense you see? 02:46 But of course in this context He's talking about 02:50 more than that. He's talking about the ABUNDANT life 02:53 as a Christian. That He brings an extra dimension 02:57 that isn't there from what you might call the biology 03:00 but the spirituality. 03:02 And so there's a dual meaning there 03:05 and I like that... I like that. 03:07 As opposed to the devil who wants to kill and maim 03:10 and destroy. Yes! In Hebrews it says He came to 03:14 destroy the one who has the power of death: the devil. 03:17 That is a contrast there... very big contrast. 03:20 I like the concept of abundant life because as human beings 03:24 we have the ability to think through things. 03:26 We have the ability to choose. 03:29 That's really giving a little extra dimension 03:31 to the rest of the species. Yes! 03:33 And we can create! So it's really interesting. 03:36 You know, I'm glad you're here because I just want to ask 03:40 a little bit about you first 'cause I know some of the 03:43 viewers out there may not know too much about you. 03:45 Where were you born? Tell us a little bit about 03:48 yourself and your family. I was born in California. 03:51 Spent most of my life in California. 03:54 We did move out of state for 3 years to Missouri: 03:57 another state there in the central United States. 04:00 And I spent 4 years in West Africa in the country 04:03 of Sierra Leone... OK... teaching there: teaching biology 04:07 and mathematics and things like that. Yes. 04:10 So I have had a very special opportunity 04:15 to grow in that environment. So you are married? 04:17 You have children? Grandchildren? 04:19 I'm married... I'm married to... My wife was a dietitian. 04:22 OK. So she's looked after you well, I can see. 04:26 She's fed me very well. 04:28 I have to develop self- discipline to not get overfed 04:33 'cause she's an excellent cook. 04:34 But we've had two daughters... two children. 04:37 They're both grown now... they both have children. 04:40 I am blessed to have 12 grandchildren! 04:43 Really? Just from two daughters? 04:45 Just from two daughters, yes. Laughter. 04:47 You've done well. 04:48 So are there any following in the lines of dad or 04:52 grandchildren that are looking? Well... 04:57 one daughter took a science: chemistry. Um-hmm. 05:02 And the other daughter took education. 05:05 But they've been pretty busy with large families 05:09 and so... Yeah, that's true! 05:12 So just tell me in your early stage of life 05:17 when you were young your parents were Christian? 05:19 Yes, they were in fact teachers. 05:21 They were teachers. OK, so... 05:23 along the way did you ever feel that you have a calling 05:26 one day to be a scientist and what you do? 05:29 Well why did you choose that? 05:31 That's an interesting question. I wouldn't say that... 05:34 I started out as a biology teacher as a matter of fact. 05:37 And... So you went into teaching? 05:40 I went into teaching despite my conviction 05:44 that I didn't want to do that 05:45 but just came naturally I guess. 05:49 And I wanted to progress a little further. 05:55 You know, get a little more education. 05:56 When I finished my Ph.D. I started looking for a job 06:00 and there was a job at Geoscience Research Institute. 06:03 Interesting! Interesting place to work. 06:06 So how long have you been with Geoscience Institute? 06:08 Oh, do you really want to know? I really want to know! 06:11 Well, I started in 1984. 06:13 OK! So 35 years. 06:15 Thirty-five years! Really? 06:17 So you had a good background to be able... to be the director. 06:20 I haven't been director all that time but... 06:23 No, but to be the director now you've been there for a period 06:26 of time that shows it's a good place. How is the Institute 06:29 recognized in the world in the field of what we are 06:32 talking about? Well, there's probably not 06:36 a one-size-fits-all answer for that. 06:39 We do have some on the staff who are doing ordinary - 06:43 or I should say extraordinary - science research. 06:47 OK. We have one man who is studying geochemistry 06:52 of granites for example, and he's gotten quite a bit of 06:55 credibility in the scientific community. He's published 06:58 papers on that subject and there's a big study group 07:01 on that. He's quite successful in that. 07:03 Another person who is studying fossil whales in South America 07:09 and also publishing and so on. 07:11 And so we have people who are well established 07:15 in the scientific community. 07:16 But we also have people working in media 07:20 that is producing videos and we do a lot of creation 07:24 conferences, and so the attitude that someone would have 07:29 I think would be shaped strongly by their attitude toward 07:33 the activities we're involved. OK. 07:35 So there'd be some high respect for science, 07:39 some who would say: "Well, we don't like your creation 07:42 bent. " But then of course from among those who are creationists 07:46 I think we have good standing. Yeah. 07:48 We're not as well known as perhaps we should be 07:54 but those who know us I think have a high... I think we're 07:58 well respected. Very good. Excellent. 08:01 Now what I want to know is: 08:04 what? We're going to learn about species today. 08:07 OK. And I want you to get the ball rolling 08:09 'cause I really want to find out about this. 08:11 It sounds so interesting. 08:13 All right. So evolution and species. 08:17 Where do they fit together? Good question. 08:19 And so what we'll try to do is talk about 08:23 how a creationist views the question of change in species. 08:27 All right. So, is change in species the same as evolution? 08:32 See that's an important distinction to make. 08:36 Evolution requires change in species. It's all about that. 08:41 But evolution is a big theory 08:45 and is usually... Of course the word is used 08:47 in a variety of meanings, but as usually meant 08:50 in this context it's the theory that 08:54 life began as a simple cell 08:58 and diversified over long ages of time 09:02 to the point where the diversity reached what we see today. 09:06 Um-hmm. So that from this one original 09:09 let's call it a bacterium we now have gum trees 09:15 kangaroos, people - um-hmm - fish... Flowers; flowers, 09:21 sea creatures... all of that having a common ancestry 09:26 down to a single bacterium. 09:28 That's what we usually mean by evolution 09:31 in terms of it's contrast with creation. Um-hmm. 09:34 But change in species can apply 09:39 at a much lesser degree. Um-hmm. 09:42 And a creationist I think would be inclined to 09:45 interpret the change in species as not the same as evolution. 09:51 Evolution is a... kind of a philosophy. 09:55 It has developed into a philosophical approach. 09:58 And so a creationist would have a different 10:01 philosophical approach, but change in species 10:05 could fit into a creationist philosophy. Um-hmm. 10:09 So it depends on the degree? Whether it's micro 10:13 or macro if I could put it that way. Yes! You can use 10:15 those terms: microevolution vs. macroevolution. 10:18 And those terms don't have a very precise definition. 10:23 Hmm. But in what we might call practical terms 10:29 just as we use it micro evolution is the kind of change 10:33 we can observe as we look at a species. 10:36 And I think a familiar example is dogs. 10:40 Um-hmm. Dogs we know have great variability. 10:45 It's an interesting example actually. 10:49 I just was alerted to a particular scientific paper 10:54 where someone studied the different breeds of dogs 10:58 looking at their skull and the arrangement of the bones 11:00 and so on... proportions. 11:03 And they compared the variability among dogs. 11:07 That's one species and they determined - 11:11 and this is not a creationist view - 11:13 OK - they determined that the variability within that one 11:17 species was greater than was found in the entire dog family 11:23 including the South African, the South American dogs, 11:26 the Indian dogs, the Asian dogs. Dogs all over the world 11:29 had actually less variability than just this one species 11:34 from within that same family. Yes. 11:37 And so that illustrates I think the idea of 11:42 change in species without this evolutionary kind of conclusion 11:48 that's derived from it. Hmm. 11:50 That's a very good point... that's an excellent point. 11:52 Because in evolution it's one species 11:54 evolving into another species. 11:57 Yes... but more than that 11:59 it's one species developing new body parts, 12:06 new kind... not just a... well... 12:10 I guess I'm struggling with the idea of species. 12:12 But new body parts and that kind of thing. Inventing things. 12:15 Creative. And we don't see that. 12:18 They've still got two eyes and mouth... Yes! 12:21 and the same features. 12:24 We don't see things developing wings when they didn't have 12:27 wings before. Um-hmm. We don't see things developing 12:30 kidneys when they didn't have kidneys before. 12:32 Those are examples of... of well, of creation 12:37 or invention so to speak. That's right. 12:40 So what does the Bible say about change in species? 12:45 You know, that's a good starting point. What does the Bible say 12:47 about change in species? 12:49 Well, let's look first at Genesis 3. 12:54 Genesis chapter 3 where God is interviewing Adam 13:00 and Eve after they have fallen. 13:02 And it turns out the serpent 13:06 was involved in this situation and this problem 13:10 and God put a curse on the serpent and He said: 13:12 "You're cursed, Mr. Serpent, and you're going to crawl 13:16 on your belly from now on. " 13:17 Hmm! Well, if he had already been crawling on his belly 13:23 there wouldn't be any curse to crawling on his belly. 13:26 So the implication is he wasn't crawling on his belly. 13:29 Probably had legs or wings or whatever. 13:32 But now it's going to be a change: he's going to crawl 13:36 on his belly. So the curse 13:39 due to sin has caused changes in species. 13:43 Um-hmm. Good point. Another... another example 13:48 of what the Bible says or what we can infer from that 13:51 is in Genesis 1, I think it's about verse 30 13:54 it says: "I have provided... " God says: "I have provided 13:58 food for all the land creatures. " 14:01 Well, when you look around today 14:03 you don't see all the land creatures eating plants. 14:07 They're eating each other; some are eating plants. 14:09 There's been some changes, and all of us wonder 14:12 were there predators in the Garden of Eden? 14:16 Well I don't think so. 14:18 The Bible says they all ate plants. That's right! 14:21 But now we have this violence; there is a change. 14:24 And that goes along also with Genesis 6. 14:27 If you look in Genesis 6:11-13 14:30 it talks about God coming to Noah and saying: "Noah, 14:34 things have gotten so bad down here I'm going to destroy 14:36 the world. " Um-hmm. And then God gave two examples 14:42 of how bad things are: 14:43 the earth was filled with violence - um-hmm - 14:46 violence is one of the reasons - yes - 14:48 and all flesh had corrupted its way. 14:52 So what God had created and called "very good" 14:55 had now become so corrupt He needed to destroy it. 15:00 Very bad, in fact. Very bad! 15:01 So the Bible actually says species have changed. 15:07 I mean it can't avoid it. 15:09 Romans 8 says: "We know that all creation 15:14 is groaning under the curse. " 15:16 So all creation is groaning under the curse 15:23 and so much change has occurred since the beginning. 15:26 Well there's even with Adam and Eve in the garden 15:29 where God told them after they had sinned 15:31 that there was going to be difficulty. Right. 15:34 He said that thorns and briars are going to grow now - 15:38 right - whereas nothing before was like that. 15:40 Everything was "very good; " everything was beautiful. 15:43 Nothing would hurt you. Good example! 15:45 But now there's going to be thorns and briars on like 15:47 the roses. They've got thorns on them. Yes. 15:49 They wouldn't have had thorns before. 15:51 Very good. Good point. It adds to the plant kingdom. 15:55 The idea that this change occurs to plants also. 15:59 But some people have said: "Wait a minute! 16:02 Doesn't the Bible say all animals will reproduce 16:05 after their kind? " Yeah, that word kind. 16:07 "And doesn't that mean that they can't change? " 16:10 I'll tell a little story from my own experience. 16:13 When I first joined Geoscience 16:15 I wanted to give a talk on change in species 16:18 and I wanted to find the text that said animals reproduce 16:22 after their kind. I knew it was there but I didn't know where. 16:25 So I started looking. 16:27 So I looked in Genesis 1- um-hmm - and there it says 16:30 "after their kind" but it didn't say anything about reproduction. 16:33 It says God created them "after their kind. " 16:36 That has nothing to do with repro... OK, let's look around. 16:38 Oh, Genesis 6! There it says "after their kind" again 16:43 but it doesn't say anything about reproduction. 16:44 It says they're going into the ark "after their kind. " 16:47 Um-hmm. Oh... Leviticus 11 16:50 "after their kinds" again. 16:52 Well again, nothing to do with reproduction. 16:55 It has to do with whether they're clean or unclean. 16:57 And I sat back and I thought: 17:00 "The Bible doesn't say it. " 17:02 I KNEW it said it... but I was wrong. It doesn't say it! 17:08 And I thought: "Wow! OK! " 17:10 Well we all know animals have changed 17:13 but I thought the Bible said they had to reproduce after 17:15 their kind. The Bible doesn't say that. 17:17 Hmm! I was... I was surprised! 17:21 It was a learning moment. So what was the conclusion 17:24 you came to? Ahh... thank you! 17:27 What DOES it say? It says God created them 17:31 of different kinds. That means that when He created 17:36 it wasn't just some ancestry that He used to cause evolution. 17:40 No! There were many many kinds when He began! 17:44 And so the idea of diversity... 17:49 Diversity is not something that 17:53 God used evolution to cause. 17:56 It's something He started with. 17:58 Um-hmm. Because plants are... 18:02 You could say: "Are plants one kind? " 18:04 Well they're created on a separate day from the animals. 18:07 Um-hmm. OK... and then in the text 18:10 it says He created herbs of the field and trees with fruit 18:15 bearing seed. Well there's already two different kinds 18:17 of plants. Um-hmm. And then He's talking about kinds 18:20 of those, so there's diversity there from the beginning. 18:23 Likewise on day 5 in the land animals and the sea creatures 18:27 there are kinds plural. 18:30 Different kinds of kinds. 18:33 And likewise on day 6 in the land animals. 18:35 The beasts of the field; the beasts of the forest; 18:37 creeping things. There's different kinds, each of which 18:41 is plural. Um-hmm. So what is really being said 18:44 I think in Genesis 1 when it talks about after their kinds 18:47 is that God created MANY KINDS! 18:51 Um-hmm. And so it's a creationist context 18:55 but it isn't talking about them not changing. 18:58 Very good. So then what happens to the dog at creation? 19:03 Well there must have been some creature that God created 19:06 and became the ancestor to the dog. 19:11 Probably it was a dog. We don't know anything about 19:14 what... the colors and all that kind of thing 19:19 in the Garden of Eden. And there was one. 19:20 But there was, yes. There was something there 19:23 that had descendants that we call dogs. 19:27 Whether it was like our domestic dog or the wolf 19:30 or the Japanese raccoon dog or the South American maned wolf 19:33 or the South African cape hunting dog. 19:36 You know, I don't know what it looked like. 19:38 But it had... In its genetic information 19:43 it had the potential to produce varieties. 19:47 Hmm. And that fits also with the Biblical text. 19:50 If you look in Genesis 8 I think it is 19:57 as the animals were coming off the ark 20:01 God is telling Noah to get the animals off the ark 20:04 or let them off the ark 20:06 verse 17... Genesis 8 verse 17... 20:09 I can read that. All right! 20:11 It says: "Bring forth with thee 20:14 every living thing that is with thee 20:16 of all flesh both of fowl and of cattle 20:19 and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth 20:25 that they may breed abundantly in the earth 20:29 and be fruitful and multiply upon the earth. " 20:31 All right. You see these creatures are confined 20:35 to just the ark at that moment. 20:37 All right... you've got a whole world to fill. 20:42 That's right. All right... how are those creatures 20:45 going to spread out across the world? 20:49 They're going to reproduce. They're going to reproduce 20:51 and disperse, but as they do 20:54 they're going to encounter different habitats. 20:57 Um-hmm. They're going to go thru some places that are wet, 20:59 some that are dry, some that are hot, some that are cold, 21:02 some that are forests, some that are plains or whatever. 21:05 So how are they going to survive in all those things 21:07 if they can't adapt to different habitats? 21:10 Um-hmm. So in this command to fill the earth 21:15 and to be fruitful and multiply 21:17 in that command God is acknowledging 21:22 perhaps even gifting the creatures 21:25 with the ability to adapt to local habitats. 21:28 Um-hmm. So they spread out and those that end up in a forest 21:32 are going to look a little different from those that end up 21:35 in a desert or in a savanna. 21:38 Those in a cold climate are going to have to have 21:41 a heavier coat than those in a warm climate. 21:43 Yes. And so there's going to be difference in the proportions 21:46 and the colors and the sizes and robustness of the body. 21:50 They're going to be what I have called "locally adapted. " 21:55 Um-hmm. Now, the mechanism 21:58 by which they may adapt to local conditions 22:01 Darwin might have had a point there. I think he did! 22:04 Darwin's description of how animals adapt to 22:09 the environment had a lot of truth in it. 22:12 He was right about a lot of things. 22:15 Now the exact details he may not have been so accurate. 22:19 But the idea that animals vary & those that are better adapted 22:24 survive better is almost inevitable logically. 22:27 Hmm. Darwin's problem was that he took this local adaptation 22:32 idea and extrapolated it. 22:34 Now extrapolation means pushing it beyond where the evidence 22:38 is to where the evidence isn't. 22:41 He extrapolated it beyond where it should have been 22:45 and made more of it than he should have. 22:47 But the core idea about local adaptation and change 22:50 I think is a useful idea and fits with this Biblical 22:56 description that there have been changes 22:58 that the animals have to disperse across the world. 23:01 And so there's part of that evolutionary theory 23:05 that creationists can incorporate into their ideas. 23:09 Hmm. But evolution itself 23:11 is a philosophical thing. It doesn't work anyway 23:16 but certainly it doesn't fit... Because of the conditions 23:20 because of sin in the world and we have the ark 23:23 with all the animals coming off there's room for change. 23:26 Oh yes! In fact, it's necessary. 23:28 Yes. It's a necessity. 23:30 Yeah, it's a different world before the flood 23:32 because the Bible said it had never rained. 23:35 Yes! The weather had always been perfect. 23:38 It had been a wonderful environment. 23:40 There was no need for adapting. 23:42 Not only is the world today different to the world before 23:44 the flood but the world today has differences 23:47 all over. You know, lots of differences on the surface 23:50 today. Yes. So we've got different weather patterns. 23:54 Oh yes! Different mountains and deserts. 23:57 Different plant communities. You know you were talking 24:00 in Romans that the creation groans. 24:03 It does, doesn't it? We are susceptible 24:07 to all sorts of things: floods, earthquakes. 24:10 Actually the earth is really in an event that's 24:15 changing all the time. 24:17 You talk about earthquakes. You know I come from earthquake 24:20 country. Yes! Just had one not too long ago 24:23 that shook things up. 24:25 So that's kind of... I hadn't really thought about 24:28 the creaking and groaning of the earth from earthquakes. 24:32 Well during the flood the Bible says that 24:35 the foundations of the deep broke open and the water went... 24:39 During the flood there was a lot of groaning, wasn't there? 24:40 There was a lot of continental shifting in that event. 24:43 So tell us about the source of fixity that's from Plato. 24:49 Well, you know, in the early church 24:56 there was an inheritance - a philosophical inheritance - 25:01 from the school of Platonism and particularly Neoplatonism. 25:06 But Plato had this idea that there are types 25:10 of fixed types and that these are in the area of 25:17 perfection. But in the physical realm 25:20 you see imperfect copies of the ideal type. 25:26 Um-hmm. And so the idea that the ideal doesn't change 25:30 but you can get different mani- festations that are imperfect. 25:33 But there's a fixed ideal. 25:36 And that developed into common knowledge. 25:42 That was common sense 25:44 and everybody knew that was true. 25:47 So when the early church fathers about the time of Augustine 25:51 I think back a few centuries after Christ 25:55 they wanted to make their religion, their theology 26:00 more intuitive to the public. 26:04 And so it was just kind of a natural thing 26:07 to say: "Well everybody agrees with these fixed 26:10 types that Plato talked about. 26:13 Well let's apply that to the creation 26:15 so that animals are fixed. " 26:17 And that idea was brought in. 26:20 What everybody knew was incorporated into the church 26:25 and then later everybody discovered it wasn't true. 26:30 Um-hmm. And the church was left with this idea that 26:32 they had borrowed from the world 26:35 and the world left them holding the bag so to speak 26:39 and embarrassed. 26:41 There's a lesson there: the same problem occurred 26:46 with the geocentric universe. 26:49 The geocentric universe comes from Ptolemy, the ancient Greek. 26:53 And of course everybody knew it was true 26:55 so let's put it into the religion. 26:59 And then when science says: "No, that's not quite the way it is" 27:03 here we are embarrassed. 27:05 And I think today the lesson is here for us 27:08 if we will learn: what everybody believes to be true 27:12 may not be true. Um-hmm. 27:15 And Christians struggle with the idea of evolution. 27:18 You say: "Well everybody knows evolution is true. 27:21 Let's bring it into our theology. " 27:22 And churches are doing that and they are going to be 27:24 embarrassed when the scientific community 27:27 comes out with what they already suspect 27:30 and that is that there is no mechanism 27:33 for evolution that anybody can identify. 27:37 I believe in time that will happen. 27:39 I think it's coming. You know, my son James is 27:42 in primary school and he was doing an extra curriculum 27:45 activity that he was allowed to do of astronomy. 27:50 They take him into the big town once a week to do this. 27:54 And one night the man who was teaching astronomy 27:59 to these primary school children 28:01 was talking about how the Christians believed that 28:06 the earth was flat. Isn't that ridiculous? 28:09 And then they found out that it wasn't. 28:12 You know, we found out it wasn't. And so 28:14 of course Christians were embarrassed 28:18 by being shown up to be wrong you know is the implication. 28:21 And I was up the back as a parent. I said: "Excuse me! " 28:25 I said: "The Bible actually said back in the Old Testament 28:27 times that the earth was round; it was a circle. 28:30 And so it was only some parts of Christianity 28:35 that believed it was flat. It wasn't actually Biblical. " 28:38 I expressed that and he goes: 28:41 "Oh... really? " 28:44 Well the idea of a flat earth and Christianity has 28:47 an interesting history which I am not an authority on. 28:50 But there is a book by a man named Russell - 28:52 um-hmm - called Inventing the Flat Earth. 28:56 And according to this author it seems that the idea 29:01 that Christians believed in a flat earth 29:03 arose in the 1800's - hmm - by authors who were trying 29:08 to embarrass Christianity. 29:09 They made it up basically. 29:13 According to this guy nobody in Christian history 29:16 ever talked that the earth was flat 29:18 with maybe one or two minor exceptions. 29:21 But the church NEVER taught the earth was flat. 29:25 That was an idea they were accused of by Andrew Dixon White 29:29 and a couple other authors in the 1800's 29:32 in the context of Darwin's attempt to overthrow theism 29:37 and introduce materialism into thinking. 29:41 So the book by Russell Inventing the Flat Earth 29:44 should put that to rest. I like the wording "then. " 29:48 We are good at inventing things, aren't we? Yes. 29:50 It's amazing how these things come out to try and embarrass 29:53 Christians and so it's the same sort of thing as 29:57 basically what you're talking about. 29:59 Be careful what you believe or what you listen to. 30:01 That's right. It's easy to accept what everybody knows 30:04 without being critical about it. 30:07 But history teaches us that we can't always believe it. 30:11 I've been in that situation... I had to speak up. 30:14 Yes, well good on you. 30:17 We are good at listening to what everyone else says, 30:19 too, but you know I find that before I became a Christian 30:22 my concept was what I was taught through evolution 30:26 at my state school. Sure. 30:28 But when I discovered the Word of God and as I read it 30:31 more and more - and I would encourage you to do that - 30:33 you understand that all the things that are taking place 30:38 for us now are to reveal to us a great plan of salvation 30:42 because this world is really doomed. 30:44 And so we have the opportunity 30:47 to go back and find out who our Creator was. 30:50 And the Bible is very clear. We've been talking about that 30:52 in Genesis chapters 1, 2, and 3 etc. and we can see 30:57 that there is a God who's trying to reach out to us. 31:00 The information is there right before us, 31:03 and I believe in 1958 when the DNA was discovered 31:07 that we now have a greater knowledge of the process 31:11 that God has for reproducing each one of us. 31:15 We don't look the same. 31:17 We have two arm and two ears and a nose and a mouth and eyes 31:20 but you know, that development is something that God has put. 31:25 The procreation of mankind through a mother and a father: 31:30 that is something that's very unique. 31:33 And it's common to all species, but God has done that. 31:35 And as you were saying it's not fixed. It can change. 31:40 It's necessary that it change. Otherwise we'd be extinct. 31:42 Umm. I know now... I was reading that a number 31:46 of species that every year are disappearing off the planet. 31:49 You know, but that's not to do with the fact that they can't 31:53 change... it's because we are destroying the environment 31:56 in which they survive. Yes. I think habitat 32:00 destruction is probably the most significant cause 32:04 of extinction. As we clear the forests, 32:07 as we build... Just building a freeway 32:11 or an impassable barrier through some kind of habitat 32:17 like whether it's a desert or a forest or whatever 32:19 means the animals, especially the little animals 32:23 on one side and the ones on the other side 32:25 cannot interbreed any more. 32:27 Hmm. And if one side has a small population 32:33 small populations can go extinct with a 32:36 relatively small catastrophic event of some sort. 32:40 A storm or whatever can wipe them out. 32:42 And so you divide things into small parcels 32:46 you're going to lose diversity automatically. 32:49 Hmm! It's inevitable. Hmm. 32:50 So now that doesn't mean that we as humans 32:53 cannot and should not develop 32:57 you know living spaces for people to live. 33:00 We have to do that... it's our responsibility. 33:03 But as we do it we should I think 33:07 take into consideration how we affect other species, 33:11 how we can nurture them 33:14 and kind of provide environmental space for them. 33:18 I think that's our responsibil- ity too as stewards of creation. 33:22 And with it you were talking before about the adapting 33:26 to the environmental changes 33:28 when we as human beings come along 33:31 and change a habitat in a very quick time 33:36 there is no opportunity for adaptation. 33:38 It takes a few generations for that change to occur. Yes. 33:41 And so we are wiping them out because the particular 33:46 species that may be there that's not somewhere else 33:49 they have got no opportunity - right - to prepare for what is 33:54 happening. It just happens and wipes them out. 33:56 And why do we care? 33:59 Because in Genesis 1 God said 34:03 "I will make man and woman in My image 34:07 and give them dominion... " Dominion? 34:10 What does dominion mean? 34:11 A dominion: like a kingdom. 34:13 "I'm putting them in charge 34:16 and they're going to rule over. " 34:19 Now... In His place. 34:22 Yes, in His place. To rule over the kingdom 34:27 has an implied responsibility and an accountability. 34:32 'Cause the Bible always talks about the servant master. 34:35 That was a big thing for Jesus. 34:37 Yes! And so if you're going to be the master, 34:39 you have to be prepared to serve. 34:41 That's right. To take care of. 34:43 And when you think of a kingdom 34:47 you have good kings or bad kings. Um-hmm. 34:50 Now what is a good king who's in charge of the world? 34:54 He's going to be responsible; he's going to take care of it 34:57 and provide the greatest good for the greatest number. 35:01 And so that's why we as creationists care about 35:05 the creation: because we care about the Creator - 35:08 um-hmm - and He has given us this responsibility. 35:11 And the bad king is going to abuse it. 35:14 That's right. If we're abusing it then we're bad kings. 35:16 That's right. And I like the concept 35:18 that God gave that to mankind. Yes! It's a gift. 35:22 It's a gift, yeah, and it's not something that He gives to any 35:25 of the other species by the way. That's right. 35:27 And so we have that responsi- bility and we should care for 35:30 the environment and the creatures that God has put 35:32 on this world. There's a little book which I 35:34 think encapsulates that. It's called Entrusted. 35:38 Um-hmm. Entrusted: it's a book on environmental stewardship 35:41 written by some friends of mine. 35:43 Hmm. Now... I want to ask you a question. 35:48 What can we actually say a species is? 35:52 Good question. And is it the same as a kind? 35:56 All right! That's a good question. 35:58 Thank you for asking that. 36:00 A species: when we talk about species we are usually 36:03 using a definition that's called a biological species concept. 36:08 Um-hmm. And that really means a group of individuals 36:13 or populations which are able to interbreed. 36:16 Um-hmm. And so if there is interbreeding possible 36:20 that implies they are the same species. 36:22 Like a lion and tiger are not because they... Well... 36:27 they can breed but they're... Can't normally interbreed. 36:30 The offspring is not able - is sterile - to breed. 36:35 Yes, but the fact that they can produce offspring's 36:39 suggests that they could have a common ancestor. 36:43 Um-hmm. And when you combine that with their distribution 36:47 well you see the lion is a savanna-adapted cat 36:53 and the tiger is a forest-adapted cat 36:57 in Asia and Africa respectively 37:01 although there are some lions in India as well. 37:03 But that's kind of a boundary between the lion and the tiger 37:06 there in India. 37:08 And then you could conclude based on the hybridization 37:12 and on their distribution and on their general similarities 37:15 that this could be the result of an animal coming off the ark, 37:19 an ancestor coming off the ark, 37:21 spreading across the world, 37:23 and in Africa it encountered a particular habitat 37:27 where a particular color of coat and a particular 37:31 style of living in groups and so on 37:34 was adaptive and useful whereas the tiger 37:38 moving into the forest he needed a different color 37:41 and he could hunt individually because the prey animals 37:46 are not moving in herds in the forest like they do 37:49 on the savanna. And so that is I think 37:54 a good illustration of what a creationist view might be. 37:58 That coming from the ark you have this dispersal 38:01 and local adaptations here and there 38:03 so that you get groups. So if they're not 38:07 naturally interbreeding they're different species... 38:10 even if they came from the same kind that was created. 38:14 Um-hmm. 38:16 And people have asked that ques- tion: "Is there a correlation 38:20 between a Genesis kind 38:22 and some kind of taxonomic category? " 38:25 Um-hmm. The answer is no, there isn't a direct correlation 38:29 because for one thing taxonomic categories 38:33 are very subjective. One famous scientist said 38:37 a taxonomic family is a group of organisms 38:41 that forms a group that a competent taxonomist 38:44 recognizes as a family. 38:47 Well... there you have subjectivity. 38:49 And there are differences of opinion. 38:52 However, it turns out that in many cases 38:57 estimating the relationship between the taxonomic category 39:02 and the Genesis kind comes out to approximately 39:06 the level of a taxonomic family. 39:08 And so we have the dog family 39:11 which scatters and covers the whole world. 39:14 Local adapted species. 39:16 The bear family. You have bears through much of the world. 39:20 There are no bears native to Australia but 39:22 there are bears throughout... Actually the number of bear 39:25 species is not very many but they do spread out. Um-hmm. 39:28 Thank you for admitting that Australia doesn't have bears. 39:31 The koala is not a bear. 39:33 Camels... there's camels in So. America. 39:38 Well call them llamas and alpacas and vicuñas. 39:41 And then there's camels in Asia. 39:44 And there are several examples. Deer... another example... 39:47 We have those! are a widespread kind of group that forms 39:53 and biologists call it a single family. Um-hmm. 39:56 And so that's a useful approximation but it's not 40:00 a fixed rule. Umm. 40:03 So explain the term taxonomic. 40:07 I know taxidermists actually stuff dead animals. 40:11 That's taxidermy. Yeah. This is taxonomy. 40:14 Taxonomy is a system of naming. 40:17 Um-hmm. OK. So in the taxonomic system 40:20 you have a species that is... For example, humans are 40:23 are homo sapiens. Genus, species we call them. 40:27 The smallest category is a species but we always use 40:30 two names for the species. Homo sapiens. 40:32 The genus homo is man. 40:35 And then if you take the dog: you have canis familiaris 40:38 and then the family name is canidae. 40:41 Um-hmm. Canidae and then there's felidae which is the cats. 40:45 Those two are grouped together because they're both carnivores 40:47 and so there's an order called carnivora. 40:50 Hmm. And then carnivores and then the kangaroos 40:54 and koalas... they're the marsupials. 40:56 They are grouped together. Mammalia... the mammals. 40:59 Um-hmm. So you have species, genus, family, 41:03 order, class - Mammalia - 41:06 phylum - Chordata - and kingdom - Animalia. 41:09 And so who came up with all those complicated things? 41:13 So when we talk about category we're talking about what level 41:16 they are. It's interesting that there is a scientist 41:19 who believes in intelligent design 41:22 but he's not what we would call a creationist. 41:24 He's willing to accept common ancestry. 41:26 Um-hmm. But he has done a lot of study on this 41:29 and he has written a book called Darwin Devolves. 41:34 Published in 2019. 41:36 So it's a new book? It's a new book - um-hmm - 41:38 and he has concluded based on his evidence... 41:41 And remember: he is not opposed to common ancestry. 41:46 But he is trying to distinguish what kinds of changes 41:51 can come about through what you might call 41:54 undirected mechanisms such as what Darwin proposed. 41:57 Hmm. And from his independent study - 41:59 independent of what we're talking about here - 42:01 his conclusion is that Darwin's mechanism 42:06 probably applies at changes up to about 42:09 the level of a taxonomic family. 42:13 OK. And so we have convergence there that the same thing 42:17 that creationists have been saying for a long time 42:19 and here is a person that you might even call 42:22 a theistic evolutionist 42:24 who has come to a similar category 42:27 saying: "In order to cause the kind of changes 42:32 that distinguish families and orders 42:35 you need divine action. " 42:38 Um-hmm. Whether that divine action 42:41 is direct in the form of separate creation 42:43 or guiding some kind of evolutionary process 42:46 he doesn't worry about that. 42:49 He might take one position and I would probably take 42:52 a different one. But it's just really intriguing 42:57 to me that he comes from a dif- ferent philosophical background 43:00 and still comes out with an idea that's very similar 43:03 to what I personally hold. There had to be some form 43:07 of interference in the fact that somebody 43:11 had to... Yes... somebody had to actually 43:14 get their hands dirty so to speak - yes! 43:16 and create specific things because there's no other way 43:20 it could have happened. Yes! Darwin and micro evolution 43:24 can explain how you can get long legs in one dog 43:27 and short legs in another dog. 43:29 Or a different beak from a different bird. Yes! 43:31 But he cannot explain how you got dogs in the first place. 43:35 Hmm. Hmm. That's true. That's very true. 43:39 And so we... I say myself... when I read the Bible 43:43 to me the evidence is quite clear in the Word of God. 43:47 It's black and white, but some people may not appreciate that. 43:50 But like I said, when you read it and you begin to 43:53 get involved in what's happening 43:56 you can understand all these changes... 43:58 and even after the flood. Much of what we 44:03 "know" as a society 44:06 much of what we "know" about evolution 44:10 has been given to us by authorities 44:16 who are what we would call materialists. 44:20 Um-hmm. That is they believe 44:22 there is nothing in the universe other than material, matter, 44:26 and energy. Just particles... no God, no Spirit, 44:30 nothing like that. And so what we're hearing is... 44:37 Everything we hear in the public media - almost everything - 44:40 has been pressed through the filter of materialism. 44:44 Um-hmm. And so we're immersed in this philosophical 44:47 milieu that is blind. In fact, not just blind 44:53 but intentionally excludes any kind of divine activity. 44:57 Hmm. But... Why do you think that happens? 45:01 Why do you think that's going on? 45:04 I think it came from the French enlightenment because 45:06 the Christian church abused its power. 45:12 Um-hmm. Instead of inviting people 45:17 to respond to the love of Christ they imposed a force 45:22 and penalty on those who dissented. 45:25 Are we going back to good kings and bad kings? 45:28 It's related to that, isn't it? 45:30 And I think the intellectuals said: "We are done with this! 45:33 If this is what Christianity is, let me out! " 45:36 And I think most of us would say the same thing. 45:39 That's not what we want. 45:41 That's not really what Christianity... That's not what 45:43 Christ has invited us. No. Christ has invited: 45:46 "I have come to give you life 45:50 more abundantly. " That's right. 45:52 Yeah, so I don't really blame these people for 45:55 kind of wanting something different. 45:58 But that has led to an antagonism toward... 46:01 toward Christianity that I think is unfair really. 46:07 I think that it's time to take another look at Christianity. 46:11 So materialism is turning people away from God. 46:14 Well yes. Materialism is people who are already 46:17 turned away from God and trying to... trying to make 46:21 sense of the world. But the point is 46:23 all this scientific stuff about random mutations 46:27 for example. Well we "know" that mutations are random - 46:32 until we have discovered that that's not the case. 46:36 That's very funny. 46:38 And we're now finding that the environment 46:42 and the genome interact 46:45 so that changes in species may not be random at all. 46:50 Now where did we get the idea that they have to be random? 46:55 Not from evidence but from philosophy of materialism. 46:59 That's right. And so we have to be really careful 47:01 about what we accept from what we hear. 47:07 If that source is biased, what they report 47:12 may not be accurate. And science is discovering 47:17 that there's no way this stuff works that way. 47:21 Little by little science is eat- ing away at neo-Darwinian theory. 47:26 What I'm finding from what you've said 47:30 and what others have said recently 47:33 evolution is unscientific. 47:36 Evolution is a philosophy. Yes. It's a world view. 47:39 And yet we're told it's science. 47:41 Well... we are. That is because science has 47:44 been hijacked by materialists. 47:47 And so they say: "But is it science? 47:50 If you put God in, it's not science any more. " 47:53 Well, I don't think that's... I don't believe that. 47:56 I don't think we have to accept that. 47:58 If you look at the... Where did science come from? 48:01 It came from Western Europe. 48:03 It came from Christians. If you look at the fathers 48:06 of science you have Isaac Newton. 48:07 Isaac Newton was a believer in God. 48:10 Um-hmm. That's right. Does that mean he's not a scientist? 48:14 What about Kepler? Kepler was an astronomer. 48:18 He was a devout Christian. 48:20 He said: "See what I'm doing has brought honor to the Creator. " 48:25 Um-hmm. Does that mean that he's not a scientist? 48:29 Then there's Pascal... a devout scientist. 48:34 And you could go on. John Ray, the father of biology 48:38 wrote a book called The Wisdom of God Manifested 48:41 in the Works of Creation. 48:43 And these guys are not seeing a hostility between 48:47 God and science. Um-hmm. They are using 48:50 their science to try to understand what God has done. 48:55 And I think that's TRUE science. 48:59 When you look at the Word of God and then you do your experiments 49:02 according to scientific ways - sure - principles, 49:06 yeah principles - and then you come out and you're able 49:09 to understand what the Bible says better. 49:11 And the Bible actually explains 49:12 a lot of the things that you're seeing. 49:14 You say: "I wonder how this happened? " 49:16 And you say: "Oh! OK, there's a Creator who caused 49:20 this to begin and who maintains it 49:22 and these are the rules He's using. 49:24 Ah! It's making sense. " 49:26 Do you ever think why didn't science arise 49:30 in a place where people were animists? 49:35 Well if, in fact, animism is true 49:38 you have different gods who are constantly fighting. 49:43 Um-hmm. You couldn't be sure what's going to happen tomorrow 49:47 will be the same as what happened today 49:49 because the gods might have different moods. 49:50 And some of the gods lie - 49:52 yes - so you don't know which one's telling you the truth. 49:55 That's right. And so if you cannot count on nature 49:58 being consistent you can't do science. 50:02 Hmm. The reason we can do science 50:04 is because God maintains nature 50:09 in a consistent way. 50:12 So without God there would be no science. 50:16 Hmm... that's a good thought. 50:18 And as we know God is a God of order. 50:20 Everything you see in the Bible is done 50:23 for a reason. It's done well and it's done thoroughly. 50:28 Yes. God never leaves anything out. 50:31 Yes, we are blessed to know and to have a Creator 50:38 who's consistent, responsible, and reliable 50:43 and who has created an environment 50:47 where we can have confidence 50:51 that what we plan to do 50:55 we can do because we understand how things work. 51:00 Umm. So that when I swing a hammer at a nail 51:06 I expect the same result today that I got yesterday. 51:10 You hit your thumb? Very often yes! 51:14 That at least helps me forget my headache. 51:18 That's true! I see when I read the Bible 51:22 we have a God of order. There is nothing that happens 51:25 by chance. Everything has its place, it's time. 51:28 And it's very meaningful for me 51:31 to know that this shows that we have a God who loves and cares 51:35 for His creation. Yeah... I think we can push that idea 51:38 beyond what we should. I wouldn't say that 51:41 nothing happens by chance, that God ordered everything. 51:44 If we get into the question of automobile accidents 51:47 for example. I don't think God goes around causing automobile 51:50 accidents. Yes. But He has established 51:53 the rules, and when we have an automobile accident 51:57 we can pretty well decide what it was that happened 52:01 that caused that accident. It wasn't that God did something 52:04 wrong, it's the driver that did something wrong. 52:06 Or the road, debris, or something. 52:10 It's human activity so there is some 52:12 opportunity for freedom there. 52:14 Um-hmm. I mean, you look at biology. 52:16 That's your science area but there's physics 52:19 involved in a lot of things. Oh, yeah. 52:22 And there are laws of physics that if you drop something 52:26 it's going to fall. That's right. Even a feather is 52:29 going to fall. We have a consistent God. 52:31 Yeah... there is gravity. 52:34 If you hit something, it's going to buckle or it's going to hurt. 52:37 Well we've been talking with Dr. James Gibson 52:40 and we're just going to take a break right now. 52:42 We're going to put up our address roll. 52:44 If you feel that you would like to comment or ask questions, 52:48 you can contact us at this address: 53:45 Thank you for all you do to help us light the world 53:48 with the glory of God's truth. 53:52 I hope you've written that down because we really do 53:55 want to hear from you. We enjoy hearing from viewers 53:57 and listeners. Now we're talking with Dr. James Gibson 54:01 from the Geoscience Research Institute - 54:05 that's a bit of a tongue twister - in Loma Linda 54:08 in California. And we're just going to put his 54:11 e- mail address on the screen for you in case you want to 54:14 ask him any questions. 54:26 So llu for Loma Linda University.edu 54:30 And if people have got questions they can ask you. 54:34 Of course. There's something about questions that 54:37 sometimes people need to understand. 54:40 When you have for myself for example 54:44 I've studied this for a long time and I've come to understand 54:47 that I really don't know very much. 54:50 I think we all know that. 54:52 And so what that means is if someone asks me a question 54:56 that I don't know the answer it doesn't worry me. 54:59 Hmm. If you're insecure, you can get upset if somebody asks you 55:02 a question that you can't answer. 55:05 It's OK. There's lots of questions I can't answer. 55:07 I already know that. 55:08 You found that out? Oh, yeah. So... 55:10 so the point is: don't be afraid to ask questions 55:13 even if you think there's maybe no answer. 55:15 It's OK... doesn't matter. 55:17 If you don't know the answer well you don't know the answer. 55:19 OK... well I'm going to ask you a question. 55:20 All right. Are there limits to what we've been talking about 55:23 with changes... the variations in species? 55:26 The change in species. Well, 55:28 there seem to be some limits in a certain way. 55:33 If you look at nature, you find 55:36 organisms have different structural arrangements 55:40 of their organs. We call those body plans. 55:45 Um-hmm. An example: a human 55:50 and a dog have quite a bit similar body plans. 55:55 There's two sets of limbs. 55:57 There's a head with two eyes and two ears 56:01 and so on, and the internal organs are pretty much arranged 56:04 similar. A back bone with a nerve coming through it, 56:06 a brain in the head. Um-hmm. 56:07 If you look in the sea, 56:11 you may find some animals that look quite different. 56:15 You might find for example a sea anemone. 56:18 A little polyp that's attached to the bottom. 56:21 It doesn't have any bones; it doesn't have any brain; 56:24 it doesn't have any limbs. It has maybe tentacles 56:27 and a sac-like body. 56:30 It's a different body plan. 56:33 Now the differences between different body plans 56:36 are often the arrangement of parts but also the parts 56:40 themselves. A sea anemone doesn't have a kidney 56:43 for example or a liver or a heart. 56:46 So if you're thinking in evolutionary terms, 56:50 in order for evolution in a bit sense - macro evolution - 56:56 in order for that to work you have to have a mechanism 57:00 to create new organs 57:02 and to re-arrange parts. 57:05 We don't see any evidence of that. 57:07 It looks like that is a restriction on change. 57:11 We are limited in what we can do to just 57:14 modifying what's already there. 57:16 That's a very important point! Yes... yeah. 57:19 You know, I just think about what we've been talking about. 57:22 It's been very interesting and I'm sure the viewers 57:24 have been very interested in what you have to say. 57:27 Dr. James: thank you for being on the program. 57:30 My pleasure. You know, each time we have someone come 57:33 and talk about what God has done in the Word of God 57:35 I get excited. You know, what He's revealed 57:38 through the Word of God. And so at this time 57:40 we'd like to say thank you for joining us. 57:42 God bless you until we see you next time. |
Revised 2021-08-31