Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW200012S
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00:01 [triumphant intro music]
00:15 [Narrator]: This is 3ABN Now with John and Rosemary 00:18 Malkiewycz. 00:21 [Rosemary]: Welcome to our program. This is a 00:24 really important topic we're going to discuss 00:25 today. We will have our Bibles, and I want you 00:28 to get your Bibles. If you've got one handy, 00:30 go and get it, because we're going to be discussing 00:34 a really important, if not the most important, topic 00:38 that the Bible brings to us. It's the atonement 00:42 and judgment. We have someone to lead us through 00:46 today as we look at our Bibles on this topic, 00:49 and that's Dr. Sven string. Welcome, Sven. 00:53 [Dr. string]: It's really good to be with you 00:54 today. [Rosemary]: It's good to have you here, 00:56 because this is such an important thing to get 01:00 right! [Dr. string]: Yes, absolutely! Because it 01:02 takes us back to kind of this central event in 01:06 salvation history, which is the death of Jesus on 01:10 the cross. I mean, I don't know about you, 01:14 but if I reflect on the death of Jesus, my heart 01:18 is just melted at God's love and His willingness 01:23 to come and die for us. It's incredible. 01:25 [John]: It's central, the plan of salvation, 01:28 and it's in the Bible right at the center- 01:30 but there's more to it than just that. We're gonna 01:34 be looking at that, also. [Dr. string]: You're absolutely 01:36 right, John, 'cause the fact is this, is that atonement, 01:39 as you mentioned, Rosemary, is where God wants us to 01:42 be. We'll talk about that in a little while, 01:45 as well, but there's still a process that 01:47 needs to be done even right now. We're not there 01:50 yet, as the saying goes. [Rosemary]: And this topic 01:53 is very misunderstood by a number of people, and 01:57 different people have come up with their theories. 01:59 So today, we're wanting to help you understand 02:01 what the Bible really does say so that if you 02:04 hear any of these other theories, you can say, 02:07 "...No." Isaiah 8:20, "For the law and the 02:12 testimony, if it is not according to this word, 02:17 it is because there is no light in them." So we have 02:20 to know what the truth is so that when we hear 02:23 error, we can say, "No. I'm not going to accept that, because 02:27 that is not the truth." But we have to know the truth. 02:30 [John]: The best place is to go to the Word of 02:31 God, and we're gonna start off with a text from 02:35 the Bible. But before I read it, it's very important 02:38 that we ask for the leading of the Holy Spirit. So, 02:41 I'd ask you to join me as I pray. Father in heaven, 02:45 it is a joy and a privilege to come before You and 02:48 ask for Your Holy Spirit to direct us through Your 02:50 Word. It's Your Word, Lord, it's a wonderful 02:53 book. It reveals to mankind the origin, 02:57 where we're going, what happens, how can we spend 03:00 eternity with You, and that is through what we're 03:02 talking today is through Jesus and His atonement 03:05 for our sins. I thank You, Father, that it is 03:08 real. It is visible to all; it's in black and white. 03:12 So I pray now, Father, that Your Holy Spirit 03:15 will give us direction, give us counsel, and 03:18 guidance, through this important subject we 03:21 are talking today. And I ask it in Jesus' name, amen. 03:25 The text that I want to start with is found in 03:29 Romans chapter 5 and verse 8. It's very clear, 03:33 "But God commended His love toward us in that 03:36 while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." It's 03:42 pretty plain. That's really the wonderful plan of 03:45 salvation and how it's to take place! 03:47 [Dr. string]: Absolutely. (x2) And the amazing thing is 03:50 this, is that a child can understand that. 03:55 A child can simply read the gospels, listen to a 04:00 bedtime Bible story, and actually know that Jesus 04:04 died for my sins. [Rosemary]: And that God loves us. 04:07 [Dr. string]: That He loves us, yes, and that 04:09 we can have eternal life. You know, if you come 04:11 with me to 1 Corinthians 15:3, we see this clearly 04:18 stated in the scriptures. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 04:26 and verse 3. And if one of you would be able to 04:30 read that for us. [John]: 1 Corinthians 15:3, 04:34 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I 04:37 also received, how that Christ died for our sins 04:42 according to the scriptures." [Rosemary]: Well, the 04:44 scriptures, of course, being the Old Testament, 04:46 which foresaw and prophesied of Jesus doing it. 04:50 [Dr. string]: Yes, and we'll come back to a 04:51 very famous prophecy in the Old Testament 04:53 on that regard. Not only did Jesus die for our sins, 04:58 but He died to give us eternal life. And if we 05:01 go to John 3:16, we should be able to memorize 05:04 this. [John]: Oh, I think we know that. [laughter] 05:06 [Rosemary and Dr. string]: "For God so loved the world 05:08 that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth 05:11 in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." 05:14 [Dr. string]: You know, and a child can understand this. 05:17 [Rosemary]: And Cole can learn that first. 05:18 [Dr. string]: Exactly. We can, too. 05:20 [John]: You know, there are two verses before 05:21 that, Sven, that really help us to clearly see 05:24 and understand. It says in verse 14, it says, 05:28 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent into the wilderness, 05:31 even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that 05:35 whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have 05:38 eternal life." So, you know, it's clear; it's 05:42 an action on our part that we need to do something. 05:45 [Dr. string]: Yes. Yeah. So, it's amazing-it's 05:47 something which a child can understand, but it 05:50 goes deeper, and this is where you want to 05:52 dive in today. What did Jesus actually do for 05:56 us on the cross? What did He do for us on the cross? 06:01 And the interesting thing is this, is that what we 06:03 find Jesus doing is that He was reconciling us to 06:08 Himself. He was reconciling us to God. And the Bible is 06:13 very, very clear about this, as well. Come over with me 06:15 to 2 Corinthians chapter 5 and verses 18 and 19. 06:24 Very powerful verses right here. [Rosemary]: Okay, I'll 06:30 read this one. "And all things are of God 06:33 who hath reconciled us to Himself by Christ Jesus," 06:37 or Jesus Christ, "and hath given to us the ministry 06:40 of reconciliation. To wit, that God was in Christ, 06:45 reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing 06:49 their trespasses unto them and hath committed unto 06:53 us the word of reconciliation." [Dr. string]: That concept 06:56 of reconciliation, to reconcile, is very, very 07:01 important. And it's also very interesting to identify 07:05 when this occurred, or what was the relationship? 07:08 And we find that in Romans chapter 5 and verse 10... 07:13 Really, it's a Bible study today isn't it? [verbal agreement] 07:16 [John]: But you have to do that to give clarity. 07:18 [Dr. string]: Yes! It is a Bible study that we want 07:20 to dive into, and so that's why Rosemary invited our 07:23 viewers who've joined us to grab their Bibles 07:27 to join with us in our Bible study. So, Romans 07:30 chapter 5, and we're looking at verse 10 here... 07:36 [Rosemary]: And I just want to make a comment, 07:37 too, to our viewers that if you are having trouble 07:41 getting to these verses on time, have a piece 07:43 of paper and a pen and write them down, and look 07:46 at them later. That always helps. 07:48 [Dr. string]: So Romans chapter 5 and verse 10... 07:52 [John]: And the Bible says, "For if when we were enemies, 07:55 we were reconciled to God by the death of His 07:58 Son, much more being reconciled we shall be 08:01 saved by His life. [Dr. string]: Incredible. (x2) 08:04 So, the reconciliation occurred 08:07 when we were enemies of God. Enemies of God. 08:10 [Rosemary]: But see, we reconciled by His 08:13 death, and we're saved by His life. They work 08:16 together. His life and His death are all part 08:20 of a package. So is His resurrection - I'm gonna 08:23 throw that in. [laughs] [Dr. string]: Yes! And it's a 08:24 process, as you were saying, John, before. 08:27 It's Jesus' ministry for us. So, the cross is very 08:32 central. And Paul said, he told the Corinthians, 08:37 "My message, I'm gonna focus on the cross!" 08:40 But 'the cross' was kind of like a code word; it's 08:44 kind of like a summary of everything that Jesus 08:47 did for us. Now, I want to dive into this concept 08:49 of reconciliation. I don't know if you've 08:50 ever had somebody that you had a falling out with 08:54 I'm sure you good people maybe never had! [laughter] 08:58 But, you know, the feeling of being reconciled is a 09:02 beautiful feeling. It really is incredible. 09:05 This is what Jesus is doing for us. Now, in 09:08 the Old English, the word which we're talking 09:12 about here is 'atonement'. That's the topic, as you 09:18 were saying, Rosemary, before. 'Atonement' is not found 09:21 in the Hebrew, it's not found, necessarily in 09:24 the Greek, as well; it's an English word. It's 09:26 an English word, which is made up- it's, at, one, ment. 09:32 At-one-ment. We're one, once again, with God, 09:36 which is something we all really long to be. It's 09:39 really what we long to be. And what we find, 09:42 if you go back in the Old Testament to the 09:46 Old Testament service in the tabernacle, you 09:49 find 'atonement' is actually a huge concept. Come with 09:54 me to Exodus chapter 32 and verse 30. So, 10:00 Exodus 32:30. And what we find here is that 10:10 it's the time when the Israelites had got a bit 10:14 impatient. Their pastor had gone up for this 10:18 spiritual retreat and stayed up there for 10:22 40 days. They were wondering, "What on earth is he doing?" 10:25 [John]: It's too long. [Dr. string]: Too long! 10:27 [Rosemary]: They didn't know if he was still alive. 10:29 [Dr. string]: Didn't know if he was still alive. 10:30 So, 40 days, what they decided to do is they 10:33 decided to go back to the traditions that they 10:36 knew. That's exactly what happened! Until 10:39 they built this golden calf. [Rosemary]: Well, you 10:40 gotta remember, too, they did have a mixed 10:42 multitude there egging them into the wrong things. 10:45 [Dr. string]: That's right, as well. So, there was 10:47 people kind of pushing them. So, this golden calf 10:50 when they're worshiping the calf, and Moses comes 10:53 down, incredibly incensed, incredibly shocked. But this 10:58 is what he says to the Israelites: Exodus 32:30, 11:05 if one of you are able to read that. 11:08 [John]: The Bible says, "And it came to pass 11:10 on the morrow that Moses said unto the people, 11:12 'Ye have sinned a great sin, and now I will go 11:16 up unto the Lord, peradventure I shall 11:18 make atonement for your sin." [Dr. string]: Yes. There's 11:21 the word. [John]: That's the word, the 'atonement'. 11:22 [Dr. string]: Atonement, yes. Becoming one again 11:27 with God. And it's so important! You know, 11:29 the reality is this, is if we don't have the 11:31 atonement, we are lost forever. [Rosemary]: I just 11:35 want to make a comment on this, that we're 11:37 possibly getting to a bit later. But he said, 11:41 "Peradventure," or, in case, "Maybe I am able 11:44 to make an atonement for your sin." Now, that 11:50 sin is singular. Okay? That sin was a specific 11:56 sin that they had committed. Yes, they had built an 12:02 idol and worshiped it when God had told them 12:05 that we're not to build idols, that we're not 12:07 to build any molten images, that we're not to bow 12:11 down before them and worship them; they were 12:14 to worship only Him as God. They had broken 12:16 God's law, and so he was going to see if he 12:21 could make atonement for that sin. It was a 12:24 specific sin; it wasn't just because they were sinners. 12:27 [John]: And it's important to know it's between the 12:29 people and God. It wasn't between Moses and 12:32 the people; it was between the people and God. 12:35 [Dr. string]: Yes. And that's why John Wesley 12:37 made the comment that nothing in the whole system 12:41 of Christian theology is of greater consequence 12:46 than the understanding of atonement. That's what 12:49 he said. This is the central thing: How can 12:52 I be reconciled to God? (x2) It's so deep that 12:58 people have been drilling down into this well, 13:02 this reservoir of theology and understanding for 13:04 centuries. And what we want to do today is we 13:09 want to start going into the explanation. They're 13:11 called models, explanations for what Jesus did 13:15 for us on the cross, and His work afterwards, 13:18 as well. The first model that we could look at 13:22 is called the ransom model. Ransom model. Come over 13:26 with me to Mark 10:45. Mark chapter 10. So this 13:34 is Jesus speaking. Mark 10:45. And maybe Rosemary, 13:39 if you were able to read that for us today. 13:45 [Rosemary]: Okay. Chapter 10 verse 45 of Mark, "For 13:49 even the Son of Man came not to be ministered unto," 13:53 and this is Christ speaking, "but to minister and 13:56 to give His life a ransom for many." [Dr. string]: A ransom 13:59 for many. Yes. So, this comes from the, kind of, 14:02 medieval... Well, of course, Jesus was even 14:04 talking about that beforehand. But to paint you a 14:08 picture, this was kind of like from the medieval 14:10 feudal-kind of system where I would come 14:14 and raid your village and take captive some 14:18 of your kids, for example. [Rosemary]: Use them 14:22 as slaves. [Dr. string]: Yes, use them as slaves. And 14:24 if you wanted the slaves, your kids, or whoever back, 14:29 then you would have to come and give me a ransom- 14:32 pay the ransom to buy me back. And this is 14:36 one of the earliest models for the atonement. You 14:40 could dig into this a lot, as well, but we 14:42 want to continue on. [Rosemary]: So, you're 14:43 saying that in the medieval times, they really understood 14:46 that idea, because it fitted with the times 14:50 they lived in and the worldview - the way 14:54 they thought, their opinions, and everything - they 14:59 could see that in the Bible. [Dr. string]: That's right. 15:03 And tribal societies even today can really 15:05 understand this kind of concept of a ransom. 15:09 [Rosemary]: It's their culture in all those things that 15:10 affect the different models. [Dr. string]: Yes! Definitely. 15:14 Definitely. [Rosemary]: Preconceived ideas and all. 15:15 [Dr. string]: That's right. That's definitely 15:17 right. But there were people who thought, maybe, 15:20 there's something else- another kind of angle 15:22 that they could look at atonement. And so, we 15:25 come to the moral influence theory. A priest by the 15:31 name of Peter Abelard saw this concept, or 15:36 came across this concept, and the verse which he 15:40 liked to base it on is found in Romans 5:8, 15:44 if you have that for us. [John]: Yeah, and I read it 15:46 earlier on, but I'm gonna read it again, because it's 15:48 a very important verse. It says, "But God commended 15:51 toward us in that while we were yet sinners, 15:55 Christ died for us." It's a wonderful thing 15:59 to understand. [Dr. string]: It is. (x2) 16:01 Now, I want to just share with you, what does the 16:03 moral influence theory mean? What it is is that 16:06 God in His great love for us stepped into 16:10 our world in the person of Jesus. And because 16:13 of this incredible demonstration of divine love, we are 16:18 moved to confess our sins and to start moving 16:24 back towards God. Now, one of the things you 16:27 need to notice with the moral influence theory 16:29 is that the reconciliation all needs to be done 16:35 on our part. So, for moral influence theory, 16:38 for God, there's nothing to be reconciled. There's 16:42 no issue with God, shall I say. It's all that we 16:45 need to be brought back to God. We need to see 16:49 the love and need to be transformed by it. 16:52 So, that's the moral influence theory. Now, 16:55 there's another one, as well. There's quite a 16:57 few of these, and it's good to dive into it, is 16:59 Christ the victor. Christ as victor, and that's 17:03 found in Colossians 2:15. Rosemary, if you have 17:11 that there for us. [Rosemary]: I have. It 17:14 says... It's Colossians 2:15, "And having spoiled 17:18 principalities and powers, he made a show of them 17:22 openly, triumphing over them in it." [Dr. string]: Yes. 17:27 So, what we have here... [Rosemary]: He's the victor. 17:29 [Dr. string]: He's the victor! He conquers the 17:33 evil powers through the cross. He won the victory 17:37 at the cross. That's an incredible thing, as well, 17:41 to understand that we are in this life, we're 17:45 going through the journey, but we're on the winning 17:48 side already. It's been done. The victory has 17:51 been won. Amazing. So that was a number of 17:54 the different models, but then we come to 17:56 the great Reformation of which we stand on 17:59 the shoulders of. What we find there is that 18:04 the reformers moved this concept of what we call 18:08 penal substitution. And for that, I want to bring 18:11 you over to Isaiah, that beautiful prophecy that 18:16 we were talking about earlier at the beginning. 18:19 One of the prophecies in the Old Testament, 18:20 Isaiah 53:4-6. [John]: The Bible's very 18:30 clear here. It says, "Surely he hath borne 18:33 our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we 18:36 did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 18:40 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he 18:44 was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement 18:47 of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes 18:50 we are healed. All we like sheep have gone 18:54 astray; we have turned every one to his own 18:58 way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity 19:01 of us all." [Dr. string]: Mmm. Mm. The 19:04 picture is this: Jesus took our sins upon Himself. 19:10 God laid our sins upon Him that the penalty, 19:18 the chastisement that we deserved, He took, 19:22 and we could be freed, we could be healed, 19:27 because of that. [Rosemary]: This is a 19:30 bit like reconciliation, too. [Dr. string]: It is, yes. 19:33 Definitely. And so what you find here is this 19:36 very, very powerful concept, and it goes back to the 19:40 Old Testament system, the system in the tabernacle 19:44 where a sacrifice was needed. We find this 19:50 at the very start of Leviticus, that book with 19:54 all of the laws and regulations. [Rosemary]: Sacrifices. 19:59 [Dr. string]: Sacrifices, yes. Leviticus 1:1-4. 20:05 We actually see this word, 'atonement', being 20:09 used here, as well. It's really amazing. So, Leviticus 20:13 chapter 1 verses 1-4. [Rosemary]: Okay, I'll 20:17 read that. "And the Lord called unto Moses and spake 20:20 unto him out of the tabernacle of the 20:22 congregation, saying, 'Speak unto the children 20:25 of Israel and say unto them, "If any man of you 20:28 bring an offering unto the Lord, you shall bring 20:30 your offering of the cattle, even of the herd 20:33 and out of the flock. If his offering be a burnt 20:37 sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without 20:41 blemish, and he shall offer it of his own voluntary will 20:44 at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation 20:47 before the Lord." So, at the sanctuary. "And he shall put his 20:51 hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and 20:54 it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him." 20:58 [Dr. string]: Yes. So you can see the penalty. 21:01 There was a law, the Ten Commandments, 21:04 and there was a penalty for sin, and the model, 21:11 the picture that's being described here, is that 21:14 we could take our sins, we could confess them, 21:17 we could take them to the tabernacle, to the 21:20 sanctuary, and we could lay them on the head 21:23 of the lamb, and that lamb would be our substitute. 21:27 [Rosemary]: And they'd put their hand on the head 21:29 of the animal and confess what they had done wrong- 21:32 make confession of specific sin. [Dr. string]: Yes. Now, the 21:37 reality is that the penal substitution model has 21:39 not gone without its objectives. People in 21:43 more recent times, and particularly with some of 21:45 the feminist theology, and things like that, have 21:49 found this concept of penal substitution too, a little 21:53 bit, kind of, there's a chauvinistic kind of tone 21:57 to it, you know? And some of the new atheists 22:01 have actually made the comment that this idea 22:04 of penal substitution sounds like cosmic child 22:07 abuse where God sends in His Child, His only Son, 22:15 forces Him to die on the cross, and basically 22:19 belts Him, you know, to smithereens just so 22:23 that we could walk away free. It seems unfair, 22:28 it seems so harsh, it seems so unnecessary 22:33 for a loving God. And this is why we have been 22:38 led by some people in the church, some theologians, 22:43 to look at models which try and take away this 22:49 seemingly harshness of the penal substitution 22:53 model. One of the places that we have gone, and 22:58 some people have gone in our church, is what we 23:02 call the healing substitution model. I remember when 23:07 I was living in Western Australia, I got a call. 23:11 I was working at Curtin University as the chaplaincy 23:15 coordinator there, and I got a call from a 23:17 young man, and he said, "Look, I have this great 23:20 opportunity for you. There's a speaker coming 23:23 to town, Dr. Timothy Jennings. Would you 23:27 like him to be able to speak at Curtin 23:30 University?" And I'd never heard of Timothy Jennings, 23:34 and, you know, the title "Doctor" is always a 23:35 good one. [Rosemary]: Yes, that's why you have one. 23:38 [Dr. string]: And he said, "Look, there's 23:40 other churches which are hosting him. Would you 23:45 like to be part of the itinerary?" So, you know, 23:48 "Sure, not a problem." And it was interesting, 23:51 a couple days later, I got a call from one 23:54 of the church members of where that young man 23:57 was worshiping and said, "Do you actually know what 24:03 is gonna be presented? The ideas?" And I said, 24:06 "Well, no!" He's Adventist, he's a doctor, I don't know. 24:12 And so she said to me, "You need to look into 24:16 this and to find out what Dr. Timothy Jennings 24:24 will be presenting." And so, that is what 24:26 I did, I started to dive into. The model that's 24:31 being presented is what we'd call the healing 24:35 substitution model. So unfortunately, there's 24:40 this complete rejection of the penal substitution 24:44 model, which the idea is that if we go back, it's 24:48 a Roman idea that you have this imperial system 24:54 that imposes laws and that there's this penalty, 25:00 this punishment, and you need to fear this 25:04 God who's going to cause you this penalty. So, 25:07 penal substitution is completely wrong - we 25:10 need to move towards a healing substitution model. So, 25:14 let me just explain to you what the healing 25:18 substitution model is. It's in some ways similar 25:22 to the moral influence theory, but it goes a 25:24 little bit further. So, first of all, it's this 25:27 idea that what we need to understand is that God 25:31 is love. [Rosemary]: Yes, we know that. [Dr. string]: We 25:35 know that, yes. So, Jesus came to demonstrate the 25:40 love of God, and to heal us of the problem of 25:51 sin in our lives. And so, what we have is 25:56 this reality that Jesus come, He dies on the 26:01 cross for us to destroy sin, but then He also 26:09 effectively imparts or puts in place the perfect 26:15 law of God in the hearts of humanity. Not you 26:18 in particular, but this sort of abstract concept 26:21 of humanity. And then in the process, He heals 26:24 you of your sin, draws you back to God, and 26:28 then we can be at one. There's no need for law, 26:31 there's no need for any legal kind of system, it's 26:35 all about healing you of the problem of sin. 26:39 [Rosemary]: Healing us of our perverted selfishness, 26:44 our misunderstanding of the love of God. 26:47 [Dr. string]: That's right. (x2) And in many 26:50 ways, this is a beautiful reality. The fact is that 26:57 there is healing in the life and death and 27:01 resurrection of Jesus. If you go back with me 27:04 to Isaiah 53, I can read this one for you. Isaiah 53. 27:14 What we find is that it says here, Isaiah 53:5, 27:23 "And with His stripes, we are healed." (x2) 27:29 And so, you have that beautiful concept of 27:32 healing right there. It's repeated in 1 Peter 2:24. 27:40 So if you come all the way back to the end 27:41 of the Bible with me, as well, 1 Peter 2:24... 27:49 [John]: I've got it here, and the Bible says, "Ye 27:53 see then how that by works, a man is justified, 27:57 and not by faith only." [Rosemary]: Are you in 27:59 1 Peter or 2 Peter? [John]: Um... [Rosemary]: 1 Peter. 28:04 [John]: Oh, sorry. [Rosemary]: 1 Peter 2, 28:07 what was the verse again? [John]: 24. I read the wrong 28:10 verse, yeah. 1 Peter chapter 2 and verse 24, 28:13 "Who his own self bear our sins in his own body 28:18 on the tree that we being dead to sin should live 28:22 unto righteousness by whose stripes you were 28:26 healed." That's quoting Isaiah. [Dr. string]: So, 28:30 there's certainly healing power in Jesus' work. 28:34 There's no doubt about it. [Rosemary]: And God does 28:35 give us a new heart that isn't bathed in selfishness. 28:40 [Dr. string]: That's right, that's right. 28:43 And he writes his law on our hearts, as well. 28:47 There's no doubt about this at all. There's so 28:50 much that is true about the healing substitution 28:56 model. The problem is that what is rejected, 29:01 and that is that the Bible actually talks 29:04 about this concept of penal substitution in 29:09 terms of talks about the penalty of sin, and 29:14 that Jesus stood in our place and took that 29:18 penalty. That's the really important thing 29:20 that the Bible actually talks about it. There's 29:22 major problems that we have with this healing 29:25 substitution model. In fact, if we go to the 29:28 Spirit of Prophecy, what we find is some really 29:32 clear passages which picks us up and speaks 29:37 about it very, very clearly. We find it in 29:40 The Desire of Ages. So, I just wanted to share 29:45 with you this beautiful quote. So if you don't 29:47 mind, I'll just read that for you today. 29:52 Desire of Ages chapter 78, if I remember correctly, 29:57 page 753. And it reads like this... [text on-screen] 30:58 Amazing. [Rosemary]: He was actually 30:59 feeling what those who do not repent of their 31:04 sins and claim Jesus as their Saviour, what they 31:07 are actually going to go through when it comes 31:10 to the final judgment. They're going to feel that 31:13 withdrawing of God; they're going to feel 31:16 that guilt upon themselves in a way that it will 31:21 basically snuff out their lives. He was feeling 31:25 that for anyone. He took that on to take it away 31:29 so that those who accept Him will never need to 31:32 experience it. [Dr. string]: Yes. He was 31:33 our substitute. He stood in our place. He was 31:38 the Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of 31:42 the world. But there's another quote in Testimonies 31:46 that I want to share with you, as well. Testimonies 31:51 vol. 2 and pg. 200. A very, very powerful quote, 31:58 as well. Just wanted to read that together 32:01 today, as well. [text on-screen] 33:04 So, I want you just to notice all of the 33:06 words in this quote that relate to a legal process which is 33:13 occurring through Jesus' death on the cross for us. 33:19 Jesus takes the penalty. It's the law which must 33:25 be satisfied. It's God's nature that must be 33:30 satisfied, as well. And this is where the moral 33:35 influence theory has a major drawback, and 33:40 that is that it says that it's only us as 33:44 human beings that need to be reconciled to God. 33:46 There's nothing in God that needs any kind 33:50 of reconciliation, and the reality is this: We 33:54 need to recognize with God's love comes in anger 33:58 towards sin. [John]: Yeah. It's how God hates sin. 34:02 [Rosemary]: Well, God hates sin because of 34:04 what it does. It brings pain, it brings suffering, 34:08 it brings selfishness into people's lives, 34:12 and that is so opposed to God's character of 34:18 love that it hurts. He sees what it does to 34:22 those He loves, His creatures. And of course 34:27 He hates it! Because of what it does. 34:30 [Dr. string]: Yes. You know, I think about a 34:33 situation, for example, in Thailand where tourists 34:38 from the west, from Australia and New Zealand, 34:41 from the states from Europe, will actually go to 34:44 Thailand to be involved in child prostitution. 34:52 And for me, the... I don't know about you, 34:55 but I get angry at that. I think for the little 35:00 child who has to go through all of that... 35:04 No defense! And is sold into that kind of slavery. 35:08 We must understand the heart of God, that when 35:12 He observes, He knows, He sees sin. There's an 35:17 anger, there's a wrath that comes with that, 35:21 as well, and that's really important that 35:23 there is a, with God's anger, there's also 35:26 a penalty that comes, as well. There's a 35:29 penalty which must be carried out against sin. 35:33 [Rosemary]: Against sin. [Dr. string]: That's exactly 35:34 right. And so, the amazing thing is this: What we 35:39 need to, with this atonement, is see that it's like 35:43 a rainbow, or a kaleidoscope, or a diamond where you 35:48 can actually turn it from different angles 35:51 and say, "There's another angle that I haven't 35:54 seen before!" And, "There's another truth there!" 35:58 So, is it true that Jesus was our ransom, 36:02 He was a ransom for sinners? Yes, [He was]! Was Jesus' 36:08 death on the cross, did it demonstrate the 36:10 love of God? Yes, it did! Does it move us to 36:14 confess our sins? Yes. It certainly does. 36:19 [Rosemary]: Did Jesus die as our substitute? 36:22 Yes, He did! [Dr. string]: Yes, He did! 36:24 Absolutely. Is there a penalty for sin? 36:26 Yes. [Rosemary]: Is there a law? Does God have 36:29 a law which moral influence and healing 36:33 substitution deny? [Dr. string]: Yes. (x2) 36:36 [Rosemary]: They say that the law of God is an 36:39 impose thing that we come up with. But 36:42 because "God is love, there is no law." But 36:45 there is the law of love, which is what the moral 36:48 code is. And that's what rules the universe! 36:51 There is a law, and it's ruled by love. 36:54 [Dr. string]: Yes. And it's this idea that penal 36:57 substitution comes from this imperial- this dictatorship, 37:01 this arbitrary-imposed law... Well, the fact 37:04 is that God does have His Kingdom. He is 37:07 sovereign, but the law that flows from His 37:12 sovereignty is a law of love. It's not an 37:15 imposed law; it's a law of love, which is so, so 37:18 important. So, when we just focus on the healing 37:23 aspect of Jesus' atonement and we reject the fact 37:28 that He was our substitute in the terms of taking 37:31 the penalty for our sin, we've lost a major part 37:35 of the biblical record of the atonement. 37:38 [Rosemary]: That's right. We're only getting part 37:40 of the story, and there's a great other part of it 37:43 that is being missed out. You have to have it 37:46 combined to get the truth. That's where, 37:49 "To the law and the testimony..." If it 37:52 misses out on any of those aspects, you can 37:55 say, "It doesn't fit God's model." And 37:59 those things that miss out on a specific area, 38:02 either they emphasize too much one way 38:04 or they emphasize the other way and miss out 38:07 on the other part, that's not the truth of God. 38:11 [Dr. string]: Yes. And there's a really interesting 38:12 observation which I've made. I mean, I haven't 38:15 done a research study, I haven't done a PhD 38:17 on this, but I've noticed that health professionals 38:22 tend to gravitate towards this healing substitution 38:25 model, because, as health professionals, they are 38:29 in the healing ministry, and I've got family 38:31 members who are health professionals, as well. 38:33 And so, the issue, though, is this: Do we project 38:38 our profession, and project it up and say, "That's 38:41 all that God is"? Or do we say, "No, we don't 38:46 just do it in terms of our profession, but 38:49 we go to what the Bible says and what the Spirit 38:51 of Prophecy says." Now, there's a couple of corollaries 38:56 that I think it's very important that we 38:58 understand in terms of the healing substitution 39:00 model. These are really where it starts to really 39:03 fall down, and that is, first of all, with the 39:06 investigative judgment. With the investigative 39:09 judgment, the healing substitution model says 39:15 this: There's no law, there's no court, 39:20 there's no books, there's no record in 39:22 heaven. The issue is their concept of God, 39:28 which has been corrupted. So, the penal substitution 39:31 model has corrupted our minds. What needs to 39:35 be cleansed is not the heavenly records, but 39:38 our minds. So, there's the sanctuary is not 39:43 an objective reality in heaven; the sanctuary 39:47 is the lives of God's people, and God cleanses 39:51 our minds. [Rosemary]: And when it comes to judgment, 39:55 they also say that those who don't accept Christ 39:57 as their substitute, their final death is 40:02 just a natural outcome- that God doesn't actually 40:07 kill them in any way. They just die a natural oblivion. 40:13 [Dr. string]: Yes. Yes! That's another major 40:15 corollary. We'll come back to that in just 40:17 a moment. But I want to- this is so important. 40:20 I think it's really important that we do 40:21 just the Bible study necessary for this. 40:24 So, if we come back to Hebrews- so just a book 40:30 or couple of books over back towards the Old 40:34 Testament. Hebrews 9... Chapter 23 and... 40:40 [Rosemary]: Hebrews 9 and verses 23 and 24? 40:42 [Dr. string]: That's the one, yes. [Rosemary]: Okay, I'll 40:43 read them. Hebrews 9:23, 24, "It was therefore necessary 40:49 that the patterns of things in the heavens 40:51 should be purified with these, but the heavenly 40:55 things themselves with better sacrifices and 40:57 these. For Christ is not entered into the 41:00 Holy Place as made with hands, which are the 41:03 figures of the true, but into heaven itself now 41:07 to appear in the presence of God for us." 41:09 [Dr. string]: Mm. Amazing. And also, come with me 41:11 to Revelation, 'cause Revelation is also a very 41:14 powerful...revelation of what's happening in heaven. 41:19 So, Revelation 15:5, 6. John, did you have that 41:26 for us today? [John]: Yes, I do. Revelation 41:28 15:5, 6, and the Bible says, "And after that, 41:33 I looked; and behold, the temple of the tabernacle 41:36 of the testimony in heaven was opened. And the seven 41:39 angels came out of the temple having the seven 41:41 plagues clothed in pure and white linen, and 41:44 having their breasts girded with golden girdles." 41:48 So, it's a reality. [Dr. string]: It's a reality! 41:51 And this is a very interesting kind of question- it's just 41:57 a logical question. If we are the temple 42:00 in the sanctuary of God, but Revelation says, 42:04 "Out of the sanctuary come seven angels," 42:06 does that mean to say that seven angels come 42:09 out of us? It's an interesting conundrum to- you know, 42:13 it just doesn't make sense! (x2) But the 42:16 fact is this: Not only is there an objective 42:19 sanctuary in heaven; there's also a process 42:22 which is being accomplished right now. Come back 42:24 with me to Daniel chapter 7. We know this very well 42:29 as the Seventh-day Adventist community. Daniel chapter 42:35 7, and we're looking at verses 9 and 10 here today. 42:40 [Rosemary]: Okay. "I beheld till the thrones were 42:43 cast down, and the ancient of days did sit whose 42:46 garment was white as snow and the hair of 42:49 his head like the pure wool. His throne was 42:51 like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning 42:54 fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth 42:57 from before him. Thousand thousands ministered unto 43:00 him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood 43:02 before him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened." 43:06 Their books! [Dr. string]: Their books, 43:08 yes. Their records! There's a judgment - 43:12 this is a very, very key concept in the Bible 43:16 in terms of wrapping up the problem of sin. 43:19 And in fact, it's not just a cosmic judgment; 43:23 it's also very personal, as well. And if you come 43:26 with me to 2 Corinthians- very, very important 43:30 verse here-2 Corinthians chapter 5 and verse 10. (x2) 43:38 If we read it together, "For we must all appear 43:44 before the judgment seat of Christ so that each 43:47 one may receive what is due for what he has done 43:50 in the body, whether good or evil." We must 43:52 all appear before the judgment seat of God. Now, this is- 43:57 [Rosemary]: Ecclesiastes 12:14 says, "For God will 44:00 bring every work into judgment, with every 44:02 secret thing, whether it be good, or whether 44:05 it be evil." So, everything will be brought back. 44:07 [Dr. string]: Yes. Now, here's a very interesting 44:09 point, and this is the same problem that the 44:11 moral influence theory has, and the healing substitution 44:15 model has, as well. The healing substitution model 44:19 says that at the end of the 2,300 days, the 44:23 sanctuary would be cleansed. Now, that is God's people, 44:28 according to the substitution model, and our ideas 44:30 need to be cleansed. But here's a really 44:34 important point: What about the dead who were 44:38 believers in Christ? Do they have any ideas 44:41 in their mind? No. Can their minds be cleansed? 44:47 [Rosemary]: No, they're dead. [Dr. string]: No, they're dead. 44:50 So what it means is that the investigative judgment, 44:54 the pre-Advent judgment, which is described in 44:57 Daniel 7, doesn't apply to anybody who believed 45:02 in Christ and was dead. So when Christ raises 45:06 them, we may have gone through that process of 45:09 clearing those ideas, but any of those believers 45:12 down through the Middle Ages who believed in the 45:14 substitution model, according to the healing 45:16 substitution model, has actually not gone through 45:22 this very important process in the atonement. So 45:26 can you see that there's a fundamental deficiency 45:29 in this model? Very, very important - very important 45:33 deficiency. [John]: And the text is very clear. It 45:35 says, "For we must all appear." That means every 45:38 one of us, you and I and everyone. And while 45:41 Jesus died for the sins of the world, that salvation 45:46 is only offered when you come and repent and turn to Jesus. 45:50 [Rosemary]: In this verse, it says that the dead 45:52 will be judged by things that are in the book. 45:56 [Dr. string]: That's right. (x2) There's 45:57 another very important thing about the healing 46:00 substitution model we need to understand. 46:02 It actually comes from an individualistic western 46:07 culture. It's all about your healing, your ideas, 46:12 your heart that needs to be healed. Whereas 46:15 what we see in Scripture is the atonement is not 46:18 just about you-and I'm sorry to make that point. 46:23 It is actually about a much bigger reality, 46:26 and that's the whole point of a justice system. It's 46:31 not just about the victim or the criminal; it's about 46:36 the whole of society. And so, the angels in heaven, 46:41 they have no sin that they need to be healed of 46:44 that they can understand, but they need to be 46:48 able to see that justice is done and the justice 46:52 is worked out. Do you see my point here? 46:54 [Rosemary]: Yes. [Dr. string]: It's very, 46:56 very important. So, the whole process of judgment 47:01 is not just about transforming your ideas and healing 47:05 your mind and your heart. Now, there's a second 47:08 corollary, and you mentioned this before, Rosemary, 47:10 which is that the healing substitution model wrecks 47:15 havoc with the final judgment, as well. 47:18 Because the idea is that there was no punishment 47:25 for sin, which Jesus actually took, what 47:28 this means is that there's no punishment for the 47:31 wicked at the end. It's a natural consequence. 47:35 But I want to tell you here today that the 47:38 reality is, that's not a biblical understanding, 47:41 and there's so many examples. I want you to come with 47:44 me to Genesis chapter 6 and verse 17. (x2) 47:55 We just see what happened here way back at the beginning. 48:02 Genesis 6:17. [Rosemary]: And behold, 48:07 I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon 48:10 the earth to destroy all flesh, wherein is the 48:15 breath of life from under heaven, and everything 48:19 that is in the earth shall die." [Dr. string]: The question 48:22 is, who brought the flood upon the earth? 48:27 God! God did, right? It wasn't a natural 48:31 consequence. (x2) And we can keep on going 48:36 just a few chapters over. Genesis 19:24, 25. 48:44 If you could read that for us, John. 48:47 [John]: The Bible says, "Then the Lord rained 48:51 upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone 48:54 and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He 48:57 overthrew those cities and all the plain and 49:00 all the inhabitants of the cities, and that 49:02 which grew upon the ground. [Dr. string]: Yes. So who 49:05 rained fire and sulfur on the cities of Sodom 49:08 and Gomorrah? [John]: God did. 49:09 [Dr. string]: God did. Was that a natural 49:12 consequence? [Rosemary]: No. [Dr. string]: No, it wasn't. 49:14 It wasn't. Because otherwise, we'd see fire and brimstone 49:18 being rained down on Kings Cross (Sydney, Australia), 49:21 on San Francisco, places where hospitality and immorality... 49:29 [Rosemary]: It's a natural outflow, not as God doing it. 49:32 [Dr. string]: Yes. (x2) So, that is way back 49:35 in the Old Testament. What about the final 49:38 judgment? Come down with me to Ezekiel. This is a 49:42 prophetic picture of what happens at the 49:44 end of time. Ezekiel chapter 38 and verse 22. 49:51 Now, I don't have time to share with you the 49:54 exegetical linkages with Revelation here. But 49:59 we can look at that if you want to read Ezekiel 50:03 38 and 39. But Ezekiel 38:22 says, "With pestilence 50:09 and bloodshed, I'll enter into judgment 50:11 within, and I'll rain upon him and his hordes 50:14 and the many people who are with him, torrential 50:17 rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur." 50:20 Talking about Satan and his hosts. And if we come 50:25 down to Revelation 20:9, we pick up this final picture 50:33 of what happens in the final judgment. So, 50:36 Revelation 20:9. [John]: And the Bible says, 50:41 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth 50:44 and compassed the camp of the saints about 50:46 and the beloved city, and the fire came down 50:49 from God out of heaven and devoured them. 50:52 [Dr. string]: Yes. So where does the fire come from? 50:55 From God out of heaven. It's not a natural consequence. 50:59 This is supernatural. Why? Because God is a 51:03 God of love. God is love. There's two reasons why 51:07 God actively destroys and punishes the wicked. 51:12 Well first of all, justice needs to be done. You 51:15 know, Hitler could go into an underground 51:21 bunker, pull out a revolver, and shoot himself, and 51:25 avoid all the consequences of justice...just like that. 51:29 But for the 6 million Jews and the Gypsies 51:32 and all of the other people, they deserve justice 51:36 to be done. They really do. But there's a second 51:38 reason, as well, which is that God does not 51:42 want the wicked to continue on indefinitely, 51:47 or a long period of time, I should say, living in 51:50 the hell of their own making, if I could put it that way. 51:53 There's a time when we've seen the consequences 51:59 of sin, and we know where these generals and the 52:02 armies and the prostitutes and the pimps, and all 52:06 of those people - God loves all of them. But 52:09 if they cling onto their sin, God comes and says, 52:12 "I'm not going to allow these people to suffer 52:14 more than they need to. I'm actually going to put 52:16 an end to it." And then there's a third reason, as well. 52:20 God needs to put an end to sin for the righteous, 52:25 for the angels, for Himself, as well. We need to 52:29 have sin over and done with. [Rosemary]: There's 52:31 another reason, too. God doesn't want to keep 52:34 people who love sin. He doesn't want them to live 52:37 in eternity in a place where there is no sin, 52:41 where they will be in torment being there in 52:43 His presence, because they don't want to be 52:45 with Him, and they don't love Him. And so He 52:47 stops them from having to do that. In love, 52:51 He has to cease their lives so that they don't 52:55 have to experience that. [John]: You know, Sven, 52:59 when you read the Bible, it's a lie of Satan to 53:01 think that God will not punish, because it's 53:03 the devil who said to Eve, "You shall not 53:06 surely die." But all we're talking about 53:10 here reveals that God wants to eliminate sin, 53:13 and people will die. [Rosemary]: At this 53:15 time, we're going to have to go to our address 53:18 roll. What I want to do is direct you to the 53:21 address we're gonna put on the screen; write it 53:23 down. If you've got any more questions about this 53:26 topic that you would like to direct to Dr. Sven, 53:31 Pastor Sven. We will be happy to pass them on, 53:34 and you're gonna get them. If people write them in, 53:37 we'll do that. And so, please write down these 53:39 details. If you want to contact us at 3ABN 53:41 Australia for any reason or make a donation, this 53:44 is where you do it. 53:49 If you would like to contact 3ABN Australia, you may 53:52 do so in the following ways. You may write to 53:54 3ABN Australia PO Box 752 53:58 Morisset New South Wales 2264 Australia 54:02 That's, Post Office Box 752 54:05 Morisset NSW 2264 Australia. 54:09 Or, you may call +61249733456 54:13 That's, 0249733456, from 8:30 AM to 5 PM 54:20 Monday to Thursday. Or, 8:30 AM to 12 PM Fridays, 54:25 New South Wales time. You may also email us 54:28 at mail@3abnaustralia.org.au 54:40 Thank you for all you do to help us light the world 54:42 with the glory of God's truth. 54:46 [Rosemary]: We have Dr. Sven string with us, and we're 54:49 talking about atonement and judgment- what is the truth of 54:53 it, and what is not. One of the things, Sven, 54:56 that I have found with the healing substitution 55:00 and moral influences, we've talked before about 55:04 laying hands on the animal and confessing 55:07 specific sins, and also there's another verse we read 55:11 that talked about the same sort of thing of 55:14 specific sin. It was with the Israelites 55:16 when they were around the golden calf. Moses 55:19 said, "I will see if I can make reconciliation for 55:22 you for your sin," and he was talking about 55:24 this specific sin. But those with moral influence 55:28 and healing substitution believe that Christ died 55:32 for us because we are sinful, not for specific 55:36 sins. We never have to confess specific sins. 55:38 What do you say about that? [Dr. string]: It is so 55:41 important to recognize that we do have a sinful 55:45 nature. That's absolutely right. We inherited that 55:50 from Adam and Eve, and that's the consequence. 55:55 I think this is a really important thing to remember, 55:59 as well - particularly for our parents who are 56:03 viewing and joining us today - and that is 56:07 that the choices that you are making right now 56:11 will have a long-term impact on what happens 56:18 in the lives of your children and grandchildren, 56:22 and great-grandchildren, as well. [Rosemary]: And friends. 56:24 [Dr. string]: And friends, as well. But the key thing 56:27 is that-I've really thought about this, 56:32 as well-that is that in terms of your sinfulness, 56:37 you cannot disassociate your sinfulness from 56:41 specific actions. You cannot disassociate 56:45 your sinfulness from specific thoughts, 56:48 and specific words, as well, 'cause that ends 56:51 up with a dualism. That's part of the interesting 56:56 thing with the healing substitution model: 57:02 Jesus and His work on the cross, He restores 57:08 the perfect law of God into humanity - this 57:14 kind of abstract human species, rather than, 57:18 necessarily, into you and I as real people. 57:22 The thing is that actions are real. So from our 57:26 sinfulness, that flows into our actions and 57:32 our words, as well. It's really, really important 57:34 to remember that. [Rosemary]: This is an 57:36 important subject that we've been talking 57:39 about today. I urge you to read your Bible and 57:43 understand it as God wrote it. God bless you. 57:46 [lullaby-like outro] |
Revised 2021-03-23