Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW200013S
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00:15 This is 3ABN NOW,
00:17 with John and Rosemary Malkiewycz. 00:21 Hello. Welcome to the program today. 00:23 We're really glad you've joined us as usual, 00:26 and we really thank you for being here. 00:27 Don't we, John? 00:28 Yes. 00:30 We really enjoy speaking to those people 00:31 who are watching on VAST across Australia. 00:33 I think you will enjoy this program. 00:35 And we're very, very happy to have this gentleman with us. 00:38 We do because for today, 00:40 we're going to talk about something 00:41 that's very, very important 00:44 to Australians and New Zealanders. 00:47 We're going to talk about the Anzacs. 00:49 And we have someone who is a historian, 00:52 involved in researching Anzac history 00:56 is Professor Daniel Reynaud. 00:59 That's right. 01:00 And we're really glad to have you here. 01:01 It's just the name is French, 01:03 so it's spelt a bit different to how it's said. 01:05 But welcome. 01:06 Thank you. 01:08 It's really good to have you. 01:09 I'm looking forward 01:11 to what we're going to talk about. 01:12 And I'm sure the audience, the listeners, 01:14 the viewers are going to really... 01:17 just get a lot of wonderful information 01:20 and be inspired by what you say to us today, 01:23 and what your research has shown. 01:25 It's very good. 01:26 Daniel has actually chosen a text, 01:28 and it's found in 1 John 4:18. 01:32 The Bible says, "There is no fear in love, 01:35 but perfect love casteth out fear: 01:38 because fear hath torment. 01:40 He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 01:43 Interesting thought, isn't it? 01:44 So, Daniel, tell us... 01:46 Can you relate to us in a little bit about this? 01:48 Okay. 01:49 Well, I grew up in a religious home 01:52 and a religious culture. 01:53 And I'll be honest, 01:56 it was a culture driven by fear, 01:58 fear of punishment, fear of God. 02:00 And, you know, watch it, 02:02 behave this way in order to get on the good side of God. 02:07 And it wasn't till I was in my teens 02:09 that I actually discovered the gospel, 02:12 which said, "God's not my enemy. 02:14 He's my friend. 02:17 He came here in order to bridge the gap 02:20 between God and me 02:21 because I couldn't bridge it, 02:24 and He's not someone to be afraid of." 02:26 I grew up knowing God loved me, 02:29 but I never knew that He liked me. 02:32 And this verse... 02:34 That's an interesting concept. 02:36 Yeah. 02:38 This verse, for me, encapsulates the fact 02:40 that God loves and likes me. 02:43 You know, He loves me because He's God 02:45 that's His job, 02:46 but He actually likes me and... 02:48 He enjoys your company. 02:50 That's it. 02:51 You know God's good days when His inbox is empty, 02:54 and He says to the angels, 02:56 "So, you know, 02:57 where's the next batch of paperwork?" 02:59 And they say, "No, that's it, it's done." 03:01 And he goes, "Beauty. 03:02 I've got an hour free to spend with Daniel," 03:04 or drop your own name in there 03:06 because that's God's definition of a great day. 03:10 And he looks forward 03:11 when we've got an appointment with Him 03:13 in prayer or something, like we pray here at the studio. 03:19 We have everybody joins together 03:21 twos or whatever at 12:20 for prayer. 03:25 Yep. 03:26 And I always think it, "God is waiting for us. 03:29 He has an appointment, 03:30 and He's waiting for us to come and join Him 03:33 and talk to Him." 03:34 Yeah. 03:35 You know, you gave the concept of God loves us, God likes us. 03:38 But when you discover, when you read the Word of God, 03:40 you'll find that God wants you 03:42 to be with Him throughout eternity, 03:44 just not now here not only for this time on this earth. 03:47 And that's something you can all discover 03:49 when you go and look in the Bible. 03:51 And I think one of the other interesting things 03:53 about the gospel is, it's different to like 03:56 you know, when you grew up. 03:58 What you wouldn't have been taught 04:00 or what you had understood, 04:03 and then you later found something different. 04:05 God is not trying to keep us out of heaven. 04:08 He's trying to get us in there. 04:09 He's doing everything to get us to be with Him. 04:12 And it's not that we have to tick all the boxes 04:14 to get there. 04:17 And we're not having to do all the right things 04:19 and not do a wrong thing. 04:21 He's doing everything He can 04:23 to make sure we're there with Him. 04:25 And so that's why that verse appeals to me 04:27 because it was a transformation for me 04:32 from a fearful relationship to realizing, 04:35 "Actually no, I'm not afraid. 04:38 I have confidence, not in me but in God." 04:41 And I long for everyone to experience 04:46 religion and faith through that assurance, 04:51 that confidence of God loving us, 04:56 and there been no fear in that. 04:58 Yeah, exactly. 04:59 Now, before we go any further, 05:01 I just want to say to you at home 05:03 that we're going to put up an address for all later 05:07 towards the end of the program, 05:08 where we will have contact details 05:11 for Professor Reynaud. 05:13 And I'm encouraging you now, 05:16 make sure you've got a paper and pencil ready, 05:18 so you can write that down 05:19 because when we get into the story now 05:22 and we end up talking about the Anzacs, 05:24 you are going to want to ask him more questions 05:26 or find out more about the things 05:28 that he's researched. 05:30 So make sure you've got that. 05:31 Go and get it now before we do anything else, 05:34 just to prepare people. 05:38 So take us to those beginnings 05:42 that you just mentioned before? 05:43 Okay, so you've mentioned my surname, Reynaud. 05:48 It's... 05:50 Which is spelt, Reynaud. 05:51 Well, it's spells exactly as it sounds. 05:55 If you're French. 05:56 If you're French indeed. 05:58 So both my parents are French. 06:01 My dad was born and raised in Vietnam 06:03 when it was a French colony. 06:04 He went for Word War II there with Japanese occupation. 06:07 My mom, born and raised in France, 06:10 lived through German occupation 06:13 and eventually they moved to Australia. 06:17 How did they meet? 06:20 Dad's parents sent him back to France 06:23 on a wife hunting expedition. 06:24 Oh, and he found one. 06:26 Well, he was there for six months 06:27 and after five months nothing had happened. 06:30 And he was invited by a friend 06:33 whose sister was particularly attractive. 06:36 So within the month they met, 06:38 married and moved to Vietnam. 06:41 That is interesting. 06:43 Yes, it is. 06:44 He's a Frenchman. 06:45 Yes. 06:47 Your wife must have... 06:48 I mean your mother must have been extremely trusting 06:51 and adventurous herself. 06:54 Yes, indeed, 06:55 and a tremendous amount of spirit. 07:00 She's still a very dynamic lady. 07:03 It reminds me of our friends in Victoria, they're French. 07:08 And they did amazing things too that we won't think of doing. 07:13 Yes. 07:14 And they basically had a very short, sharp courtship. 07:19 Well, let me ask you. 07:20 Did the son following any of his dad's footsteps? 07:22 No, the son was far more moderate. 07:25 Okay. 07:26 So, how did they come to Australia? 07:28 Okay. 07:29 So when the French were forced out of Vietnam 07:32 in the mid late 50s, 07:36 my family went back to France, 07:38 but my dad's best friend came to Australia. 07:41 Things didn't work out in France for them 07:43 and they met, all he said, "Come here, 07:45 it's tremendous opportunities." 07:47 And so, yeah, the family arrived in Australia 07:50 and I was born three months later. 07:52 All right. 07:54 So how many are before you? 07:56 An older brother and two older sisters, 07:58 and then I have a younger sister 07:59 also born here. 08:01 All right. 08:02 And so, what did your dad do? 08:05 Pretty everything. 08:06 He was always a scholar, 08:09 but had very little opportunity to do that. 08:11 So he was a truck driver in Vietnam, 08:15 running convoys of supplies to isolated farms. 08:18 He was ambushed about once a week on average 08:22 by Communist guerrillas. 08:24 I had, you know, incredible experiences. 08:27 If you want another story, his life is amazing. 08:30 We'll look into that. 08:32 It sounds interesting. 08:33 And in Australia, we had a sheep farm 08:37 that was totally unprofitable. 08:39 That's amazing, you know, take on a sheep farm. 08:42 Oh, yeah. 08:44 And have it unprofitable in Australia. 08:45 Yeah. 08:46 Well, you know, the stocking rate 08:48 was one sheep per two acres, 08:50 so you couldn't expect to make money off that. 08:54 And it was the end of the Korean War wool boom, 08:56 you know? 08:58 The price collapsed and wiped out my family. 09:00 So dad did various laboring jobs, 09:04 and eventually stumbled into teaching French 09:08 at a high school. 09:09 And then was offered a lecturing position 09:12 at Avondale University College 09:13 or Avondale College so it was, 09:16 and got into the academic career 09:18 that his personality, 09:21 insight and skills were always designed for. 09:24 Yeah. 09:25 So he found his place? 09:26 He did, yeah. 09:28 He stumbled. 09:29 What about their spiritual life? 09:31 Okay, so that's a really interesting journey too 09:32 and then, this deserves more time 09:34 than I can give it. 09:35 Okay. 09:37 Both of them raised nominal Catholic. 09:40 Dad being a philosopher, read, read, read voraciously. 09:44 He read every philosophy in the world, 09:46 including Gandhi in the middle of a civil war 09:51 and decided not to carry weapons anymore 09:54 and we sure be killed, and was never shot out again, 09:58 which in hindsight, he saw as God rewarding him 10:02 for a step in the right direction. 10:03 Not inevitable, but for him that was the case. 10:08 And then, in France 10:10 he was given a leaflet for a group 10:14 who were taking talks on 10:16 how the Jews preserved grape juice 10:18 without going alcoholic. 10:20 And as part of his farm was a vineyard, 10:22 he went along, 10:23 and was a Seventh-day Adventist group, 10:25 and that's how he became a Seventh-day Adventist. 10:30 So that's an interesting journey 10:33 reading all those different things. 10:35 And already he read Gandhi, a presumed Buddhist. 10:39 He read all the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, 10:43 Christian existentialist, you name it. 10:46 There was hardly a philosopher 10:47 he couldn't speak on intelligently. 10:50 And that really informed his faith 10:52 because he had a broad foundation 10:56 from which to understand, you know. 11:00 He could talk to people from other faith. 11:03 And also enrich himself. 11:05 But he could talk to them, 11:07 knowingly and help lead them to what he had discovered 11:11 was the right and the truth? 11:13 Yep. 11:14 And so that would have put him in an interesting position? 11:17 So your early school years went through Christian schools 11:20 or just public schools? 11:21 Well, my first two years was public schools, 11:24 but then the rest of my primary and high school 11:28 and university was at Avondale College 11:30 so, yeah, I grew up on the campus. 11:33 That's right. 11:35 So you grew up in this area after... 11:36 I grew up in a little bubble. 11:42 So you ended up studying history. 11:46 Yes. 11:47 I did a teaching degree with a History major, 11:49 English minor. 11:51 And when I graduated, 11:52 I got a job teaching in New Zealand, 11:54 so I taught there in three different schools 11:56 for 12 years and I really loved that. 11:59 I really enjoyed the engagement with high school students. 12:04 But somewhere along the line you got married? 12:06 I did. 12:08 So I was teaching at a boarding school 12:10 and my sister was there, 12:13 so I was literally teaching my younger sister. 12:17 And partway through the school year, 12:21 a student arrived from Auckland. 12:25 Her family had returned to Europe. 12:29 And she was Romanian, and she had nowhere to stay 12:32 and so someone paid for her to come to the boarding school 12:34 where I was because she'd have a home, 12:36 she could continue her education. 12:37 She was actually an older student, 12:39 having worked for a while 12:40 and trying to get into New Zealand University. 12:44 I ran a singing and drama group. 12:47 My sister was part of that. 12:49 This new girl's roommate 12:50 was the lead singer in the group. 12:52 We knew she sang well 12:53 to help her fit into the new school environment 12:57 coming halfway through the year, 12:58 all the friendship networks are set up. 13:01 So we invited her on a few of our tours 13:03 and that's how we got to know each other. 13:07 And so one thing led to another? 13:09 One thing led to another and, yes, 13:11 I'm now an extremely blessed husband. 13:13 That's a good... 13:15 How long have you been married? 13:16 Thirty five years. 13:18 Very good, any children? 13:20 Two kids, a boy and a girl. 13:22 Our son lives in Sydney. 13:24 He's photographer. 13:25 Our daughter is a teacher in Melbourne. 13:28 Okay. 13:29 What are their names? 13:31 Etian, good French name. 13:32 Oh yes, Steven. 13:33 Steven and Bianca. 13:35 Okay. 13:36 All right. 13:38 And what's your wife's name? 13:39 Emmy or Emmanuella, actually. 13:40 She loves her name because it means God with us. 13:43 Yes, that's fine. 13:44 So who's learned Romanian and who's learned French? 13:48 Well, I must say my wife's put more in than I have. 13:52 Okay. 13:54 She speaks Romanian, German, English, 13:56 and she gets by in French, 13:58 although she won't speak it in front of me, 14:00 but with Maria she gets on. 14:02 I understand a little Romanian. 14:04 She thinks you'll criticize her. 14:06 But you've been involved in translating Romanian? 14:10 Yes, so my brother in-law is a poet and a translator, 14:15 but English is his third language as well. 14:18 So he asked me to join a team to ensure 14:22 that the translations worked well in English. 14:25 So I've been part of that team 14:27 and we've published five volumes 14:29 of Romanian poetry in translation, 14:33 so usually Romanian texts and English texts side by side. 14:38 These have had a huge impact 14:40 on the Romanian community globally. 14:43 The books have won awards for the translations 14:46 and it's been a love language. 14:50 And to be able to revel in finding ways 14:54 to put into English 14:57 these Romanian concepts and emotions, 15:01 it's been fantastic. 15:02 Of course, that wouldn't be easy because translating, 15:04 I mean, trying to get one as we're learning, you know... 15:10 Even in sub-school type things, 15:13 trying to get one word sometimes from another language 15:17 and all the different things that word... 15:19 The connotations. 15:21 Yeah, can mean 15:22 and trying to put it into one word in English 15:25 that only just vaguely gives you the whole glimpse 15:29 of what it's talking about. 15:31 It's not easy. 15:32 I remember years ago, 15:34 a girl I worked with, she was Greek. 15:38 And she had bought during lunch break a... 15:41 This is in Melbourne, the Greek city. 15:43 She had bought during lunch break 15:45 a new album by a Greek performer. 15:49 And when she brought it back to work, we said, 15:52 "Oh what are the songs he sings?" 15:54 And she looked in and she said, 15:57 "Well, they are love songs." 15:58 We said, "Well, what are they? 16:00 You know, what are some of them?" 16:01 And she said, "Well, you wouldn't understand." 16:04 We said, "Tell us, what are some of the names? 16:07 Just tell us the names in English." 16:09 She said, "I can't." 16:11 And we said, "What are you talking about? 16:13 Just tell us." 16:15 And she said, "Well, I'll give you an example. 16:18 I can't really translate them. 16:19 If I tell you this one here, in English it says, 16:23 your eyelashes shine." 16:25 And we all laughed. 16:26 She said, "Exactly, 16:27 it doesn't translate into English very well." 16:29 And so, I've often thought of that 16:32 and how hard it is to translate ideas 16:34 from one language into another one. 16:36 And I can imagine how poetry will even be harder. 16:38 Yes. 16:40 Well, is harder. 16:41 But remember, I grew up bilingual 16:44 between a Latin-based language and English 16:48 and Romanian is a Latin-based language. 16:50 The country gets its name from the Romans, Romania. 16:54 And so while I don't understand many words, 16:58 the way the language works, 17:00 and the connotations of the words 17:02 are similar to French. 17:04 And I've spent my life switching 17:06 between one language and another, 17:08 so it felt familiar to me 17:11 to be trying to find the best English equivalents. 17:14 And by the way, 17:15 there were many expert poetry translators, 17:18 who've said to my brother in-law, 17:21 "You cannot translate this poet." 17:24 And when we did, you know, he leading the team, 17:28 they've gone, "Well, 17:30 we didn't believe it could be done, 17:31 but this feels authentic." 17:33 So, you know, it's been a great exercise. 17:35 Yeah. 17:37 Yeah, it would be interesting to read some of them, 17:38 very good. 17:40 Wow, what an exciting work that is. 17:43 And people who are watching, 17:46 who are Romanian and speak English, 17:48 you may be interested in some of those books 17:50 just so that you can see 17:52 how they've managed to translate them 17:54 from one language to another. 17:56 That's really good. 17:57 I appreciate that. 17:58 Now, I have an interest 18:02 in Anzacs from family. 18:06 I'm sure that a lot of Australians do. 18:09 So tell us how you got on to this subject of Anzacs? 18:13 Okay, so for my doctorate, 18:17 I studied the way in which Australian film 18:21 and television programs 18:23 had represented the First World War. 18:26 For Australians and New Zealanders, 18:28 I mean, we know that culturally Anzac 18:30 is probably the most important national narrative 18:35 that we have that kind of encapsulates 18:40 the spirit of what it means to be Australian or Kiwi. 18:43 Anzacs are basically a national treasure. 18:45 That's it. 18:47 And they play a role in the Australian National Life 18:50 that say the French Revolution like playing in French life 18:54 or the American Revolution in American society. 18:57 It is a culturally defining national narrative. 19:02 So I was studying how First World War 19:06 is portrayed in Australian films 19:08 and exploring the Anzac legend 19:10 as we call the Myth of Anzac through these films. 19:13 I got to the end of it, I published quite a bit on it 19:16 but, you know, there's only so many movies. 19:20 So I was casting around for something else 19:22 that would interest me and I go, 19:24 "Well, why don't I marry the two interests that I have? 19:28 I am fascinated by war, 19:32 and I'm deeply committed 19:36 to spirituality to my faith. 19:39 Why not explore faith in war?" 19:43 And immediately I knew there was a topic there 19:46 because the foundational Australian scholar 19:51 in Anzac studies, Bill Gammage, 19:53 wrote an incredibly important book 19:56 called The Broken Years in 1980. 19:59 Where he read the diaries of a thousand soldiers 20:02 and code quotes from them, 20:05 and used it to explore 20:09 their experience of war. 20:12 And in the introduction, he said, 20:14 "There are three silences in their diaries, 20:19 sex, politics, and religion." 20:23 And he said, "The third is the most surprising." 20:26 Yes. 20:27 That would be. 20:29 And I thought, "I've just been gifted a topic. 20:32 I'm interested in religion. 20:34 I'm interested in faith. 20:35 I'm interested in the Anzacs." 20:36 So I thought, "At least 10% of Australians 20:41 in 1914 went to church. 20:44 So on average, about 10% of the Anzacs 20:46 must have been religious people." 20:50 So I began looking for primary sources 20:56 that would help me and I started easy. 20:59 I read the diaries of chaplains. 21:02 I figured if anyone talked about religion, 21:04 it was bound to be the chaplain, 21:05 so that's where I started. 21:07 And now I've read 21:09 probably more than 1,200 soldiers' diaries and letters 21:13 and it's been a rich discovery. 21:18 And talking about chaplains, 21:21 you have written a number of books, 21:23 and one of them is about a chaplain. 21:26 I'm going to pick it up, The Man the Anzacs Revered, 21:32 and this book is about McKenzie, 21:36 hence William McKenzie. 21:38 Yes. 21:39 And so he was not a Seventh-day Adventist, 21:42 but he was a Salvation Army officer, wasn't he? 21:45 He was, yes. 21:47 Was he Australian or New Zealand? 21:50 Good question. 21:52 He's a Scotsman, but an Australian Scot. 21:54 He was proud of his... 21:56 But Australia is full of migrants so... 21:58 Isn't it? 21:59 We're all migrants, unless we're indigenous. 22:02 But he was proud to the end of these days 22:06 to be Scottish heritage, 22:07 but intensely Australian as well. 22:10 And so this book is through his diaries written 22:14 because of his diaries or... 22:16 Yes. Look, it's a combination. 22:17 It's everything I could find on the man 22:19 what he wrote himself, 22:21 but also what others had written about him. 22:23 And it was a spin off from my researcher. 22:26 It wasn't what I was trying to find, 22:29 but his story was so exceptional. 22:32 It is... 22:34 He's one of these larger than life characters 22:36 that he leaps off the page. 22:39 And his impact was so great that a number of commentators 22:44 considered him the most famous 22:47 Anzacs of them all to the Anzacs, 22:52 but also incredibly well known in Australia. 22:54 He was a celebrity, no doubt about it. 22:57 And I'm thinking, "Hang on. 22:58 Here's a man, who was a celebrity in his day 23:01 for his work as an Anzac chaplain, 23:04 and we've never heard of him." 23:05 Exactly. 23:07 We've all heard of Simpson and his donkey for Australian. 23:11 Numbers of studies have been done that showed 23:13 that Simpson actually wasn't famous at Gallipoli. 23:16 He was not particularly well-known at all. 23:19 He became famous because we needed propaganda 23:23 to encourage men to go to war. 23:26 He was a medic who saved lives, who was killed, 23:30 carrying wounded men on a donkey 23:32 that Christ's symbolism was great. 23:35 So they puffed up the story in Australia. 23:39 But he wasn't famous on the battlefield. 23:41 He wasn't even the only man 23:42 to use donkeys on the battlefield. 23:44 Now, he's got a statue 23:45 out in the front of the Australian War Memorial 23:48 and everybody knows Simpson, 23:50 but nobody knows McKenzie. 23:52 Now he... 23:53 I'm not putting Simpson down. 23:55 Simpson's work was good, but this guy was the legend. 23:59 And if he's alleged to the Anzacs, 24:03 then why don't we know his story? 24:06 Very true because I hadn't heard of him 24:08 until the book. 24:10 Interestingly enough, 24:12 the man who wrote the foreword for me, 24:14 another scholar in religion and war, 24:17 said that he often asks Salvationists 24:19 if they've heard of him, 24:21 and he's often found that they don't know. 24:24 My mum was a Salvation Army officer 24:26 when she was young. 24:28 All right. 24:30 Well, he's just an astonishing story. 24:33 A man of incredible energy and vitality, 24:37 who transformed the lives of thousands of men, 24:41 and yeah, an easy man to talk about. 24:46 And it sounds like a good book to read 24:49 if he leaps off the pages? 24:50 Well, I think so, but then I wrote it. 24:55 I'm sure that there will be people 24:57 who particularly were involved 25:00 and have a connection would like to know about it. 25:03 So if you're interested later on at the address roll, 25:06 we can give you that information. 25:09 Yeah. 25:10 So, you write a... 25:12 You know you went through looking at chaplains 25:14 and you ended up writing that book. 25:16 Yes. 25:17 What led you on to start writing about 25:21 individual soldiers? 25:22 Right, well that was always my intention. 25:26 I started with the chaplains because I needed an easy entry. 25:30 And Gammage had said, "There's no evidence." 25:32 So, you know, it was a needle in a haystack kind of stuff. 25:35 So I started where the evidence was and I thought, 25:37 "These chaplains will mention people 25:40 and also if their diaries have survived." 25:42 In the end I discovered that the catalog in the War Memorial 25:46 sometimes commented on who spoke on religion. 25:49 And I began to read those 25:50 and then I started reading at random. 25:52 In fact, 25:53 Gammage's book is stuffed full of religious comments. 25:56 He couldn't see the evidence under his nose. 25:59 That's interesting. 26:00 And this is partly 26:02 why I've pursued this with such passion 26:03 because Australians are cautious about religion 26:07 in the public sphere. 26:09 When Australia was founded, 26:11 you know whites first arrived here. 26:14 They came from a culture 26:15 where religion was a source of conflict, 26:18 Anglicans versus Catholics, 26:21 the nonconformist religions against the Anglicans 26:24 and it was a battleground. 26:26 And there was a few things 26:27 they determined not to do in Australia and that was, 26:30 they didn't want to repeat the mistakes 26:33 of the culture they came from. 26:34 So they tried to avoid too much of a class structure. 26:38 They also tried to avoid 26:40 too much of a religious division. 26:43 I mean, for example, in the Australian bush, 26:47 your nearest neighbor might be 5, 10, 15 kilometers away, 26:50 30 kilometers away. 26:51 A hundred. 26:53 And if they were Catholic and you are Anglican, 26:56 you certainly didn't want to have a conflict with them 26:59 because they might need you in a crisis 27:02 and you'll definitely need them. 27:04 So why put religion up as a barrier? 27:06 So Australians have removed religion 27:09 from the public conversation 27:11 so successfully that we've persuaded ourselves 27:14 that we're not religious. 27:16 When in fact, the rates of belief in God 27:19 or higher power 27:21 are as high in Australia as they are in America, 27:24 which is a famously overtly religious country. 27:27 You know, in the US, 27:28 you can basically talk to anybody. 27:31 There's very few people you couldn't have 27:33 some conversation about God with that person. 27:38 So it's not that Australians are less religious. 27:40 It is that we are less comfortable doing so publicly. 27:46 So much so that as I said we believe, 27:48 we're not religious. 27:49 And our historians have largely taken a secular approach 27:53 to Australian history. 27:56 We don't discuss religion as a factor, 27:58 as a force in Australian history. 28:01 So, you know, Gammage is following on the tradition 28:04 in Australians history of going, 28:06 "No, they're not religious." 28:08 I read the diaries of a thousand soldiers too 28:10 for my second book. 28:13 And I found that well over a third 28:16 talk about religion. 28:19 That's huge. I'd expect to 10%. 28:22 And it's 38-39% 28:25 and obviously not all of them are in favor of it. 28:30 But I think it would be fair to say 28:32 that somewhere between 28:35 20-25% of the Anzacs 28:38 had a commitment to faith of some kind, 28:43 and a quarter to 1/5th, that's a big proportion, 28:47 you know, we talk about the Bush Legend, 28:52 the Bushmen origin of the Anzacs, you know? 28:54 Yeah. 28:56 Well, only one in five of the Anzacs 28:57 was from the bush, 29:00 four in five were from cities and towns. 29:01 Yeah. 29:03 I was surprised to find that. 29:04 Australians were an urban nation in 1910. 29:09 Well, 29:10 that's the same proportion of Christians. 29:13 Yet we characterize the Anzacs as Bushmen. 29:17 Or bronze Anzacs down the beach saving people. 29:22 But we don't characterize them as Christian. 29:25 About one in five of the Anzacs was actually born in the UK. 29:30 The Anzac spoke with the accents of the British Isles, 29:34 including William McKenzie, 29:35 who still had a Scottish birth to his Aussie. 29:39 But we eliminate 29:41 the Britishness from the Anzacs, 29:43 because they're supposed to define 29:44 the archetypical Australian, 29:46 who isn't British. 29:47 You know, there's a website on the internet 29:49 that I actually have been reading every now and then. 29:53 And it has different pictures of soldiers, 29:57 and it tells you who they were, what they were, 29:59 and what age they were when they joined up, 30:01 where they joined up, when they joined up, 30:03 how they got to wherever they were in the First World War. 30:08 These ones actually are all to do with Gallipoli 30:11 and it talks about what battalion they were in, 30:16 what group they were in a battalion 30:18 and whether they've died at Gallipoli, 30:20 what date they died. 30:22 So many died on 25th of April, 30:24 I hadn't even realized or they died of wounds 30:27 or they went on and came home from the war. 30:30 And some of them are from Britain, 30:33 and yet they were in Australia 30:35 and they joined up as you were saying, 30:36 there's a number of those. 30:38 But, yeah, a lot of them were from the city. 30:41 Exactly what you said, which is, 30:42 I found it quite interesting. 30:44 It was different to what I'd expected. 30:46 It makes sense because that's where Australians lived. 30:49 Many of them couldn't ride a horse. 30:50 Many of them who never fired a gun. 30:52 So the Anzac myth takes truths 30:57 from history. 31:01 I've never read an element of the Anzac legend 31:03 that didn't have a foundation in history, 31:06 but what national myths and legends do is they edit. 31:10 It's not what's in it that's false, 31:13 it's what's they've left out that creates the falsehood. 31:17 And so what we've done is edit down a version of Anzac 31:21 that represents our ideals today. 31:26 For example, the Anzacs actually fought to make sure 31:30 that Australia would stay British and white. 31:33 And today, you watch Anzac Day celebrations 31:36 and you see the school bands marching down the streets 31:38 of Western Sydney. 31:41 And it's composed entirely of non-white Australians, 31:45 who the Anzacs fought to make sure 31:46 would never come to Australia. 31:48 Now that's interesting. 31:49 Very imperial. 31:51 So, you know, our values have moved on. 31:54 And we edit the Anzac narratives 31:56 so that it reflects our current set of values. 32:00 And my interest is, 32:01 okay, I can understand a nation doing that, 32:04 a nation has to have ideals to aim at, 32:08 but there's no reason to discard 32:12 or hide history in the process. 32:14 And some of the truths we hide are the fact 32:16 that a good number of Anzacs ran away 32:19 on the first day at Gallipoli. 32:21 Wouldn't you if someone was shooting at you from bushes 32:23 where you couldn't see? 32:25 And you were only 17 years old. 32:27 Well, very few were 17. 32:28 That's another part of the myth. 32:30 Very few were under age. 32:33 But, you know, 32:36 one-fifth of the Anzacs were Poms, 32:39 British, a fifth of Anzacs were religious. 32:43 Most of the Anzacs were from towns and cities. 32:46 I've got no problems holding on to the ideal, 32:48 but let's not forget the reality. 32:49 And one of the realities I'm addressing is the degree 32:53 to which religion mattered to Anzacs. 32:56 Now, some people try to make out 32:59 that the Anzacs were God's warriors, 33:01 and that they are all wonderfully spiritual men. 33:04 That too is a lie. 33:06 And the fact is quarter to a fifth of them 33:10 were religious men, 33:11 and their story deserves to be told 33:13 and their influence deserves to be recognized. 33:17 It is equally wrong to pretend 33:19 they're all Christians as to pretend that 33:21 none of them or very few were religious. 33:24 So my second book, 33:26 which was always the target of my research, 33:29 Anzac Spirituality. 33:32 Basically, I argued the case from quotes 33:35 from their diaries and letters. 33:37 So you're not arguing with me 33:39 when I say the Anzacs were interested in religion, 33:43 you're actually arguing with their own statements 33:45 from their diaries and letters. 33:46 Yeah, from what they had themselves written 33:49 and there's the book. 33:51 And it's quite a sizable book. 33:54 It's quite heavy. 33:56 It was a pleasure to write. 33:57 And, again I've tried to be true to the evidence, 34:00 where soldiers wrote against religion. 34:02 It's in the book. 34:04 And, you know, when you write in a diary, 34:06 you're really writing what's on your heart, isn't it? 34:08 Very much. 34:10 It's not as though it's a letter to the public. 34:11 No. 34:13 It's either going to someone you love or... 34:16 So you're revealing really what's on your heart. 34:18 And when you're in those circumstances... 34:19 I have not been to war. 34:21 I've done some training, but I've never been to war, 34:23 but I can imagine under those conditions 34:26 because it's not just one day, 34:28 it's a continuation of daily life. 34:31 So your relationship in what you feel is real to you 34:36 and I think that'll be an interesting book. 34:38 Can I take you through one chapter? 34:40 Yes. 34:42 There is one thing that soldiers 34:44 almost universally hated 34:46 and that was the compulsory church services 34:48 on Sundays, right? 34:50 They had to go, the whole unit. 34:52 You could pick 34:54 if they were chaplains available. 34:56 You could pick whether you went to the Anglican, 34:58 the Roman Catholic, 34:59 or the other Protestant Service. 35:01 It's the same today. 35:02 Right. 35:04 My study of why they hated those church services 35:08 was a revelation even to me. 35:10 Okay. 35:11 There were some who hated it 35:13 because they hated being forced to go to a religion 35:15 they didn't believe in. 35:16 Okay. 35:18 But most of the comments saying they didn't like the services 35:22 weren't religious reasons. 35:24 You found a quote, haven't you? 35:26 I did. 35:28 One said, 35:29 "Attended church parade this morning, 35:31 usual old dreary ceremony." 35:34 Another man writes, 35:36 "This morning's church parade was very fine, 35:38 the weather, warm and sparkling, 35:41 very little wind. 35:42 The men, very happy and singing well 35:44 and the Padre had a rattling good sermon for us." 35:49 That was just so beautiful. 35:51 That's what struck me so much. 35:53 The negative comments were, "I couldn't hear the preacher. 35:57 It was too hot." 36:02 It's not the religion they don't like, 36:04 or "The preacher wasn't religious enough for me. 36:08 He was too wishy-washy." 36:09 And in fact, the negative comments 36:11 were outweighed by the positive comments 2:1. 36:16 So this whole idea 36:18 that soldiers hated religion, no. 36:21 They hated spending three hours 36:23 making their uniform spick and span, 36:26 standing in the sun for an hour 36:28 waiting for the general to arrive to inspect them. 36:31 Listening to announcements for another half an hour, 36:33 then standing through a one hour service, 36:36 and then having more announcer... 36:38 Then fanged. 36:39 You'd be sick of it too, you know. 36:41 So it's not religion that they didn't like, 36:43 it was the whole rigmarole. 36:46 One man here says, "Church parades, 36:49 both Christmas day and Sunday are fast on both occasions, 36:53 mere matters of form." 36:55 Another one mentions that, "It was a one splendid sermon, 36:59 he says, but the wind was so loud and strong 37:02 that it was hard for most people to hear." 37:04 So then they're having to stand out there 37:06 in this howling wind. 37:08 But then this other one, "Church parade at 9:30, 37:11 dig and the other vows compelled to attend Church 37:14 of England parade. 37:16 Didn't they kick? 37:17 The Padre hit the gamblers very hard in his address 37:20 and with good results." 37:22 So there's negative and there's positive. 37:25 You know, it's quite amazing actually, 37:27 just to read those few. 37:28 It was a wonderful journey. 37:30 So I'll address, you know, formal religion, 37:33 the informal, volunteer church services 37:38 were better attended than the compulsory ones. 37:40 Go figure. 37:42 Yeah. 37:43 Probably four-fifths of Australians 37:46 voluntarily went to evangelistic meetings. 37:49 Most of them came out unchanged. 37:51 But they chose to go to a religious service. 37:54 I talked about their relationship 37:55 with the chaplains, 37:56 which was overwhelmingly positive. 37:58 There are some negatives. 38:00 I talk about their ethics and morality. 38:03 Look at what they thought about God and war, 38:06 particularly under the stress of battle. 38:08 And it's their words. 38:10 It's them speaking to us today. 38:12 Did you find that their faith in God 38:13 made them better soldiers to do what they were called to do? 38:17 Some record that. 38:19 One man, for instance, 38:21 was hitting the bull's eye all the time 38:23 in his target practice. 38:24 And he cried to the others that 38:26 it was because he didn't drink, he had a much steadier hand. 38:29 But others do document that their faith 38:32 was a steadying influence under the stress of war. 38:35 Others, of course, 38:38 found that the religion they've been given 38:44 didn't match their experience 38:46 and so they tended to lose faith. 38:48 Probably, under the stress of war, 38:52 if there was change... 38:54 And by the way, war tended to confirm 38:55 whatever men believed before the war, right? 38:58 So the religious became more religious, 39:00 the atheists more atheists. 39:02 And those who may have been classed as Christians, 39:05 but really didn't have a personal relationship 39:08 with God, a real faith, 39:11 they could tend to be pulled away? 39:13 Tend to be pulled away. 39:14 Actually, very few men were atheist 39:17 because this is an era 39:18 where pretty well everyone was raised 39:20 in a Christian ethos. 39:21 They might not have known the doctrines. 39:23 They might not have gone to church, 39:25 but they would have been offended 39:27 if they were not called Christian. 39:29 And they believed in God and you know... 39:33 They just didn't know Him. 39:34 Yeah. 39:36 It's what one scholar called a diffused spirituality. 39:39 They lived in a Christian culture 39:42 and had Christian values, 39:43 but couldn't pin doctrines down or any specific knowledge. 39:47 So you know, the majority of men 39:50 did believe in God, 39:51 did sort of think of themselves as Christians, 39:53 but often badge themselves as not religious. 39:57 One Australian Light Horse officer 39:58 repeatedly called himself not religious. 40:01 He went to church, he thanked his mother for her prayers. 40:04 He was convinced that God had saved him in battle. 40:06 He always spoke of Jesus as our Lord and Savior, 40:10 not religious. 40:13 Is it just he didn't realize or that he didn't... 40:16 It was just more an outward form? 40:19 By the culture of the day, he wasn't religious. 40:21 By the culture of today, he was religious. 40:26 True. 40:27 Yeah, I remember... 40:28 I know that with one of my dad's uncle's, 40:32 who was in the Light Horse and it head down 40:35 that he was Baptist. 40:38 I don't know 40:40 what his relationship with God was, 40:43 but I know that his mother 40:46 was what some people might call religious. 40:48 But she was a real God loving person 40:51 and her father had raised her that way 40:54 because his diaries are just full of God, 40:57 and praise to God and rejoicing in God. 41:01 And when his daughter gave her heart to God 41:03 and was going to be baptized, 41:04 he had it in his diary in glowing reports. 41:07 So he had come from a home 41:09 that had that sort of background, 41:12 but there was not very much said... 41:15 No, he didn't say very much about the war 41:16 when he came back. 41:17 Typical of most soldiers, they didn't. 41:19 They found that civilians weren't interested. 41:22 Yes. 41:23 Probably, the other effective of war on their faith 41:27 was many men came home to solution 41:31 by organized religion, 41:34 but with a deeper connection to Christ. 41:37 And they found organized religion 41:38 had let them down, 41:40 so they stopped believing in the rituals 41:43 and the formality and the denominations, 41:47 instead searching for a personal connection. 41:52 I can understand that they would do that. 41:55 Sometimes, we feel like 41:57 that we're being let down by organized religion, 42:02 by churches and things 42:05 when we're going through a tough time. 42:07 And it can make us feel, "Well, they don't really want me. 42:10 I mean, I know God does, but they don't really want me." 42:13 Yeah, people want to. 42:15 That's just because people don't know how to react. 42:16 Sure. 42:18 People... 42:19 Even when someone's died a lot of the time, 42:21 people in church and out of church 42:23 don't really know how to react, 42:25 how to talk to the person who is, 42:29 who has experienced the trauma 42:31 or the difficulty that they're going through. 42:33 And so people keep silent 42:35 when we really need to be there for them. 42:38 But our default mechanism is, "Don't go near them. 42:44 You might offend them, you might say something 42:46 that will hurt them 42:47 or they might start to talk to me 42:50 about something I don't want to talk about or whatever," 42:53 and you keep away. 42:54 Yeah. 42:55 So continuing the story, 42:59 having written Anzac Spirituality, 43:02 it was organized thematically, 43:05 but I felt there was more to say. 43:09 And the more was, 43:12 what was the experience of soldiers 43:14 going through the war? 43:16 As an individual, 43:17 what was their spiritual journey? 43:20 And so, my latest book, The Anzacs, Religion and God 43:24 is actually the story of 27 soldiers... 43:29 26 soldiers and one nurse. 43:31 And it's largely taken from their own writings, 43:34 tracing their spiritual trajectory 43:36 through the war. 43:38 And again, I've tried to get a representative spread. 43:43 Those who were doubters or non-believers, 43:46 and what they had to say about God and religion, 43:48 incredibly negative, 43:51 through to those who were spiritually ambivalent, 43:55 through to those who were... 43:56 who had a very deep and profound faith. 43:59 And we find all sorts of things we, 44:01 you know, we find the doubters have their doubts confirmed. 44:04 We find the ambivalent 44:06 struggling and wrestling to understand God. 44:09 We find some believers feeling their faith slip away, 44:13 but then they grab hold of it, 44:15 and it comes back in a stronger form. 44:17 So that's more 27 stories 44:23 representing the range of spiritual responses. 44:27 Yet there's some different things 44:29 you've got here in the contents. 44:31 One man said, "Christianity has not failed us, 44:34 we have failed Christianity." 44:36 That's an interesting concept. 44:37 Very interesting concept. 44:39 Now, he wasn't the only one to say 44:40 so, to argue that the war 44:43 exposed the failures of Christianity 44:48 to really represent Christ aright. 44:51 Because another man says, 44:52 "I've lost a great deal of faith in religion, 44:55 and the whole pile of religion." 44:57 So he's one who had been failed in understanding Christianity. 45:02 Yes, he understood religion. 45:04 And most men who lost faith knew religion, 45:08 but they didn't necessarily know God. 45:11 There's another person who says, 45:14 "We will not achieve victory 45:16 until we as a nation recognize God's Almighty hand." 45:21 So that is someone who was seeing the God 45:24 in what was happening. 45:25 Yes, and many Christians did... 45:27 Many Christians believe the war was sent by God 45:30 to pull us back to righteousness. 45:33 Now, as it happened to Australia, 45:35 you know and Britain and the allies 45:37 won the war without necessarily being more righteous 45:39 than they were before. 45:41 But it's a particular view of God 45:43 that He deliberately sent stuff along to knock us into shape. 45:47 I'm not sure 45:49 I take to that picture of God. 45:55 I was just going to say there's one here that 46:00 "I do not want to go into battle 46:02 with the hatred burning up." 46:03 Oh, that is good. 46:05 That is such a statement. 46:06 Can I talk about him? 46:08 Yes. 46:09 That is Eric Harding Chinner. 46:13 He's a young man from South Australia, 46:15 a Baptist, very devout man, very gifted young man, 46:21 intellectually gifted, a great sportsman 46:23 and a very attractive personality. 46:26 People warm to him. 46:27 I didn't know you had a photo of him here 46:30 of the person I read. 46:32 Yes, that was not intended. 46:34 And he stood out so much that his officers 46:38 immediately selected him for officer training, 46:41 and they kept him back to train others. 46:43 That's how good he was. 46:45 So he wrote back to his family, 46:47 and that was one of the things he said, 46:49 you know, "I don't want to fight out of hatred. 46:53 I want to fight for a positive reason." 46:55 He, actually heard a chaplain preach a sermon 46:57 which said, "I have come over here 47:00 to beat the offending Adam out of the German." 47:05 That's an interesting thought. 47:06 It was a very interesting concept, 47:07 and Chinner latched on to it. 47:09 He said, "That's why I'm fighting. 47:12 I don't hate Germans. 47:13 I'm actually here to help them become righteous." 47:18 Now, the striking thing is in his very first battle, 47:21 the battle of Fromelles in July 1916, 47:26 he was killed. 47:30 His body was only found a decade 47:32 or so ago when they excavated those mass graves 47:36 and created the new cemetery 47:37 of Pheasant Wood in New Fromelles. 47:42 One of the men he was fighting against 47:44 that day on the other side 47:45 had one of the most dangerous jobs on the battlefield. 47:48 He had to run messages from headquarters 47:50 to the front line, 47:51 so he's constantly exposed. 47:52 He can't hide in a trench. 47:55 His name was Adolf Hitler. 48:00 And you see, First World War didn't beat 48:02 the offending Adam out of Adolf, 48:04 it actually beat it into him. 48:08 And Hitler started an even worse conflagration 48:11 because of his experiences in World War I. 48:14 From that I kind of pick up a few things, first of all, 48:18 I admire the nobility of Chinner's character 48:20 that he sought to do good. 48:24 But I think war is a fairly poor way 48:27 of bringing people to righteousness. 48:29 War's okay for stopping evil, 48:32 but it's not good for starting righteousness. 48:34 There's very important Canadian philosopher, 48:36 who speaks about the difference between 48:38 Christianity and all other religions. 48:41 And he talks about scapegoating, 48:42 how we look for someone to blame. 48:45 It's always someone else. 48:47 He said, "God is the exception to that rule." 48:51 When we were to blame, who took the punishment? 48:57 He took the blame on Himself 49:00 in order to free us up to respond in love. 49:05 And, you know, one of the things my dad did 49:07 in the Vietnam Civil War, 49:10 or the Guerrilla war, 49:12 he reading Gandhi and said, "Gandhi is right. 49:15 People are shooting at me because they are afraid." 49:17 What was my text at the beginning? 49:20 They are afraid. 49:23 "And if I stop shooting at them, 49:24 they will no longer have reason to be afraid. 49:26 Now, I might get killed by the time 49:27 they realized that. 49:29 But at least, it's a step in the right direction." 49:31 And as Christians, 49:33 we may at times need to use force to stop an evil, 49:38 but we need to recognize that once that's stopped, 49:41 we then need to extend even more effort. 49:44 Taking the guilt and the shame on us as Christ did 49:50 in order to release those who are morally culpable 49:53 to receive grace, 49:55 God doesn't scapegoat other people. 49:58 He scapegoats Himself, 50:01 so that they can receive 50:04 His perfect righteousness in love. 50:06 And Chinner's story, for me, just highlights those things. 50:09 That's beautiful. 50:11 There's a couple of others here 50:13 that I really like, I must read them. 50:15 One says, "The ordeal should also test 50:19 and bring my lack of faith home to me." 50:23 Tom Richards, I'm glad you mentioned him 50:24 because I happen to have a photograph 50:26 of Tom Richards. 50:27 Oh, now you're kidding. 50:28 Tom Richards was an absolute legend. 50:30 He was a wallaby, 50:31 won the gold medal at the Olympics 50:33 with the wallaby team. 50:35 Also, he played for the British Lions. 50:37 In fact, the contest between the British Lions rugby 50:39 and the Australian Wallabies is called Tom Richards cup. 50:43 Joined in First World War, 50:44 won the Military Cross for bravery, 50:47 always ambivalent about his faith. 50:49 His dad was a very devout nonconformist, 50:53 and he could never quite buy into it. 50:55 He hated nonconformist religion 50:59 because it wasn't polished or intellectual. 51:01 For instance, he heard sermons by William McKenzie. 51:03 He was in William McKenzie's unit. 51:05 And while he admired McKenzie, 51:07 he found his theology a bit thin. 51:09 So he wanted the depth 51:11 and the rigor of Anglican theology, 51:13 but he hated the cold formality of Anglican services. 51:17 So here he is going through the whole war, 51:20 trying to figure out how to marry the passion 51:26 and the personal commitment of non-conformism 51:30 with the intellectual rigor and artistic beauty 51:33 of Anglicanism. 51:35 He never found it, but he was always seeking. 51:39 Yeah, that's beautiful. 51:41 You know, what he wrote was really beautiful. 51:44 I'm just going to be... 51:46 I'm going to cut in right now with the address roll 51:49 because there's a couple others here 51:50 I want to comment on. 51:52 And I'm afraid I'll run out of time 51:53 if I do the address roll now. 51:55 So I hope you've got your pen and pencil ready, 51:59 so you can take down the details. 52:01 So you can contact Professor Daniel Reynaud yourself 52:04 if you want to find out more information 52:06 or if you've got comments about Anzacs 52:09 that are in your family or once you've know 52:12 that will be a blessing to help him in... 52:14 Especially, if you have diaries or letters, please. 52:16 Yes. 52:18 And you can contact him at this address. 52:26 Daniel Reynaud is an Australian historian 52:29 whose work on Australia World War 1 52:31 soldiers and religion has challenged the myth 52:34 of the universal secularity of the Anzacs. 52:37 He has authored two books on the topic, 52:39 revealing that religion 52:41 was an important factor in the lives 52:42 of a large minority of soldiers. 52:46 If you would like to contact him 52:47 concerning his research into the Anzac Legend, 52:49 you may email him on 52:51 daniel.reynaud@avondale.edu.au 52:56 That's daniel.reynaud@avondale.edu.au 53:07 You may also visit his Facebook page, 53:10 point your web browser to 53:11 www.facebook.com/ DanielReynaudAuthor 53:19 Contact him today. 53:23 I hope you got those details of Professor Daniel Reynaud. 53:26 I want you to take note 53:28 because his books are really encouraging us 53:31 to realize that there were soldiers out there, 53:34 who were actually wanting to follow God. 53:36 And in their lives during that time, 53:39 God played a role, 53:40 but there are others who had the opposite effect. 53:42 You know, Rosemary, you got a couple of more passages... 53:45 I just saw these little snippets 53:48 of their stories. 53:50 One of them, 53:51 which you said is a very important person, 53:53 I mean, and the other two. 53:55 I just want to say, I mentioned them, 53:56 but I had no idea that you had photos of them, 53:58 so I thought that was quite amazing. 54:01 I felt impressed that I must have done 54:04 that through the Holy Spirit. 54:06 But there's one here, it says, "Trust God voice," 54:09 and that's by John Gotch Ridley, 54:12 I know you have the story. 54:13 I do and the photo. 54:15 Oh, another photo. 54:16 There he is with his wife after the war. 54:17 You can see him wearing the Military Cross 54:19 which is the first of his medals. 54:22 He became a Christian in his teens. 54:24 And he's one of the few, 54:27 who had the presence of mind to think of God 54:31 in actual combat. 54:33 Now, most soldiers wrote about religion 54:35 when they're behind the lines. 54:36 In combat, they're overtaken by sheer survival. 54:39 That's right. 54:40 For sure. 54:42 This man in the middle of a battle is praying. 54:43 He's telling soldiers, "Trust God." 54:46 He's telling wounded men, 54:48 you know, "Try and put your faith in God." 54:50 He's leading an attack 54:52 and a bullet goes through his throat 54:54 and he nearly dies from drowning in his own blood. 54:56 You know, it's welling out and he can't breathe. 54:59 And he wonders what heaven will be like, 55:01 you know, and he wonders what his mum will think 55:02 when she gets the telegram. 55:04 He survives the war 55:06 and he becomes a really important evangelist 55:09 after the war. 55:10 And his experiences were sharp 55:12 because he was preaching one day saying, 55:16 "Eternity, eternity, eternity. 55:18 I wish I could emblazon it across this city." 55:21 Well, one of the men in that sermon listening 55:23 to that sermon was Arthur Stace. 55:26 And Arthur Stace is the famous mystery eternity, 55:29 a reformed alcoholic, 55:31 who walked out of that meeting inspired. 55:33 Now, he was illiterate, couldn't write. 55:36 But he wrote the word eternity on the footpaths of Sydney 55:40 for the rest of his life 55:42 in beautiful copperplate handwriting 55:44 and created the legend of mystery eternity. 55:46 He was inspired by John Ridley. 55:48 You know, there's a sign on the side of the road, 55:51 not far from here, 55:52 which is Arthur Stace's eternity. 55:56 That's amazing. 55:57 That was one of the lasting images 55:59 of the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney. 56:01 That's right. 56:02 I just want to mention this one here 56:04 because you said this man was, did something. 56:07 "We haven't got much time, 56:08 but there in the shelter of the cliffs, 56:11 we worshiped our God." 56:12 Now, who wrote that? 56:14 That's Tralore. 56:16 That's right. 56:17 He knows his men. 56:18 Now, he was an administrator during the war. 56:21 So he didn't see a lot of frontline combat, 56:24 obviously at Gallipoli, everybody was at risk. 56:28 But he was in the war records section 56:30 and after the war, 56:31 he was asked to found the Australian War Memorial. 56:34 So the War Memorial is his vision, 56:36 his passion, the design, the way it's been set out, 56:40 the legacy of the war memorial. 56:42 Our most significant national memorial 56:46 is the work of a Christian man. 56:48 These books and, you know, just even looking at those things, 56:51 this book looks really interesting. 56:53 You've got some incredible people 56:56 that you've put into this book. 56:58 I think I'll just have to read these books 57:01 because I love the Anzacs, 57:03 I love history and this is just really good. 57:07 I just want to mention before we go 57:09 that Professor Reynaud also sings folk music 57:14 and you've got a couple of CDs. 57:16 If anybody is a folk music addict, 57:20 you may very much like to get these. 57:23 So you can contact him for those as well, 57:25 Humble Pie and Nothing is Wasted. 57:30 It's very hard to read that. 57:32 But we thank you for joining us today. 57:35 We hope that you have really enjoyed 57:38 what we have talked about. 57:40 And in the meantime, before we see you again, 57:43 may God richly bless you and keep you. |
Revised 2021-10-14